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Whatever you do, don't say Downtown Relief Line

Posted by Derek Flack / March 20, 2012

Downtown Relief Line TorontoFor all the debate that's raged in Toronto over the so-called transit file — when did we all agree to call it that? — it's pretty remarkable that you don't hear more talk about the possibility of building a Downtown Relief Line. That the Ford camp has been able to place our collective attention squarely on Sheppard East in terms of subway development is actually quite the feat, especially when you consider that there's exactly the same amount of money reserved for both "projects" — which is to say nothing.

As dumb as the subways vs. LRT debate is — and it's incredibly stupid to compare the two in the absence of contextual details like cost, population density, ridership projections, etc. — what's even more ridiculous is that this already problematic binary has somehow morphed into a subways on Sheppard East vs. LRT anywhere discussion.

Torontoist Editor Hamutal Dotan has already done a good job in diagnosing this trend as its played out in terms of cost-based analysis — i.e. the Ford camp has successfully planted the (false) notion that if money is no option, subway infrastructure is necessarily better — but the other side of the coin is that our mayor has also managed to narrow the subway discussion to this one corridor of the city. That just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, Ford campaigned on a subway extension for Sheppard and has made it one of his key mandates throughout his time in office, but when he cut his post-Transit City deal with Metrolinx — the now ill-fated memorandum of understanding (MOU) — funding for the Sheppard extension was left in the City's hands. Talk of an extension on Sheppard continued in the months that followed, fuelled by snippets of info from Gordon Chong's study of funding options for the line and the compromise plan TTC Chair Karen Stintz pitched before Ford's MOU with the province was eventually voted down at council.

One of the significant developments over this period was the entrance of "alternative revenue sources" into the conversation — you know, things like a parking tax or road tolls. These tools are, in fact, still on the table in some capacity or another as tomorrow's council meeting looms. And that's perhaps what's most problematic about all this. If we're going to consider revenue sources of this nature, we'd best collectively consider directing them toward a transit project that actually makes sense. Given that LRT is the overwhelmingly obvious choice for Sheppard, that means it's time to start talking about a DRL. At the very worst, it would curb all this inane talk about how world-class cities build subways.

Network 2011Many of the very cases made for building a subway extension on Sheppard would better justify the construction of a DRL. Sheppard subway supporters are fond of touting just how long plans have been around to build the line further east to Scarborough, but so too have plans for a DRL, which can also be traced back to the now tauntingly named Network 2011 project. Given our current funding scenarios and ridership projections, the case for pursuing the latter project is far stronger.

Don't believe me? Matt Elliott at Ford for Toronto has already laid out the pragmatics lucidly and convincingly. "Unlike Eglinton & Sheppard, the TTC's ridership projections for this route have actually increased since they were first made in 1986," he explains. "With 13,000 riders per hour in the peak direction, the DRL would open with ridership very close to subway minimums and, more importantly, would serve as a relief valve for the overburdened Yonge line, solving one of the most pressing issues facing Toronto's transit system. The line would provide new service to dense neighbourhoods while simultaneously having a positive network impact."

One of the best recent cases for a DRL comes courtesy of Bert Archer at the Toronto Standard. Although he actually floats the idea that Ford might be right about a Sheppard subway extension, Archer's arguments (via Mark Osbaldeston's Unbuilt Toronto books) about Toronto's inability to pull the trigger on grand projects work marvellously in favour of DRL.

"Cities are not businesses," he writes. "They do not need to show a profit, or even break even. They are, unlike businesses, meant to be around for centuries, and are meant to serve their population. This is often expensive, with today's governments needing to make commitments on future generations' behalf." By this rationale — and with particular emphasis on the idea of infrastructure that serves the population — it's high time we started talking more seriously about a Downtown Relief Line, a project that would be both practical and grand at the same time.

Discussion

61 Comments

K-eh la / March 20, 2012 at 04:57 pm
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we desperately need to bury the queen line. There is even a lower queen station already built!
Ben replying to a comment from K-eh la / March 20, 2012 at 05:04 pm
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There is no lower queen station.
Beepher / March 20, 2012 at 05:06 pm
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DRL all the way!!!

IMO the best parts of the city are the most difficult to access via transit. Getting to Queen West West, the Exhibition grounds/Fort York or Leslieville/Beaches are the most inconvenient and arguably the most culturally and/or historically rewarding.

Screw Scarbiria! Let's allow Torontonians to move more easily within densely populated areas.
1 / March 20, 2012 at 05:11 pm
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Bruce Arthur or Bert Archer which is it now?
Al replying to a comment from Beepher / March 20, 2012 at 05:14 pm
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Scarborough residents who work downtown will benefit most from the DRL. As it is, the have to get to the overcrowded Yonge line. The overcrowding will get even worse with Eglinton, or an extended Sheppard.
Bob dylan / March 20, 2012 at 05:15 pm
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Sigh. Even an Eglinton subway makes more sense, at least that could be considered planning for future density - Sheppard would take at least two decades to reach any reasonable density to support subways.

In any case a subway downtown is simply the one that makes the most sense. Its inarguable. The only reason the question hasnt been brought up is because the mayor has already done a good job of creating a bigger sense of distance (literally, figuratively) between the suburbs and downtown.

But the fact of the matter is that a drl would serve all passwngers as the rider capacity of every single line, including both subway and streetcar, would reduce, instead of having completely full trains at rush hour.
Grant / March 20, 2012 at 05:24 pm
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Political arguments are about controlling who frames the issue. The Subway Vs Streetcar language should have been countered by a strong case about capacity per hour, and current demand vs future demand. The fact that so much press has been printed about transit, without any context of ridership allowed Ford's strategy to divide people into Pro and Anti-subway - and that is a real shame.
steve replying to a comment from K-eh la / March 20, 2012 at 05:27 pm
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it was built as a street car stop. Plans were to run streetcars under ground then surface, not sure were. Sound familiar
iSkyscraper / March 20, 2012 at 05:34 pm
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Brilliant point about Ford managing to focus all subway attention on freaking Sheppard East. This will be his undoing in the end of course but it was quite a bit of showmanship.

Imagine for a moment, if you will, if Ford had come into office and done the following instead:

- done his search for Gravy of Mass Destruction as before, just to set the tone
- fired Webster on Day 1, saying TTC culture needed to change
- left Transit City and new streetcars alone as a done deal
- put Presto through on accelerated schedule
- stated that following the extension of Transit City to improve suburban service, and the delivery of the new LRVs to improve downtown streetcar service, the next step would be to strengthen the subway network by building the DRL and Sheppard West (to Downsview), using the vehicle tax and other levies to fund slow, continuous construction

If he had done all of that, he could have sill been Rob F**king Ford and yet no one would have said a peep. The same stuff would still be getting built, but the tone going forward on the unfunded projects would have been positive and unified. Ford could probably have whipped up a mob to torch Queens Park and all of Ottawa if new subway cash for future capital work did not appear.

But of course none of that happened. What a Child-Mayor. Someone please get an adult into those Mayoral Chains, stat.
Jason Paris / March 20, 2012 at 05:37 pm
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Great article BlogTO. This line was key for me...

"If we're going to consider revenue sources of this nature, we'd best collectively consider directing them toward a transit project that actually makes sense. Given that LRT is the overwhelmingly obvious choice for Sheppard, that means it's time to start talking about a DRL. At the very worst, it would curb all this inane talk about how world-class cities build subways."

BTW, please consider joining our DRL advocacy group on Facebook if you are at all interested in advancing the DRL!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/downtownreliefline/
stopitman / March 20, 2012 at 05:53 pm
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I wonder how many people will post in here that "the suburbs deserves good transit too". As a born and raised suburban kid, I can tell you my parents didn't move to Burlington so that they could get a subway line, nor do they ever expect one to be built in the next 100 years. Likewise, you don't move to Scarborough and expect a subway line nor should you feel the right to one.
glenn storey / March 20, 2012 at 06:04 pm
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it would be nice, buuuuuuut i'm guessing 100 $billion? 150?
RKMK / March 20, 2012 at 06:05 pm
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Ugh, THANK YOU, I've been ranting about this for weeks. If you're going to bullhorn your ways to subways, do it for a line that will do something more than feed even more traffic into the already-at-capacity-during-rush-hour Yonge line, CHEESUS.
Jamie replying to a comment from Ben / March 20, 2012 at 06:22 pm
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Yes, there was a Lower Queen Station. Prior to the building of the Bloor subway line, the original choice had been to bury the streetcar underground part way (much like the eglinton crosstown will be). When Queen station was built, Lower Queen was roughed in.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5006.shtml
Jamie replying to a comment from K-eh la / March 20, 2012 at 06:33 pm
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Building a queen subway line now would mean working around all the PATH tunnels and infrastructure. A logistical nightmare.
JunctionJim / March 20, 2012 at 06:33 pm
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I fear that the chance to build a DRL is gone, council should have buried the streetcars when they had King Street and Roncesvalles torn up and closed.

Too bad that Roncesvalles is now a big ClusterF@#k with slower streetcars than ever.
Hamburger Sandwich replying to a comment from Jamie / March 20, 2012 at 06:35 pm
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no, there is no station. at best there is a roughed in concrete box.
Jamie replying to a comment from Hamburger Sandwich / March 20, 2012 at 06:37 pm
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You must not have read the part where I said it was only roughed in.
Elle / March 20, 2012 at 06:39 pm
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I wrote Stephen Harper a very nice letter suggesting that the DRL would make an excellent Legacy Project for his Conservative Government. He could even name the individual stops after Conservative Heroes of his choice provided that the $$$ comes through.

I encourage everyone to do the same =)
Derek replying to a comment from 1 / March 20, 2012 at 06:46 pm
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Bert Archer — as it's always been. I tried to correct the error from my phone, but still succeeded in butchering the name, which is shitty because I'm a big fan of Bert's writing. It should now be correct. Apologies.
Dieter / March 20, 2012 at 06:59 pm
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An approximate guide for costing a subway station is about $1m per linear metre with a station around 140m - 165m in length depending on the platform/train car length (sometimes 180m+ if a crossover is required). A tunnel using TBMs would minimise construction impact to a cut-and-cover station with phased excavation relative to traffic.
Doing this on a street wide enough to handle entrances and intermittent transformer substations means a street more like King - not Queen. And routing a line along the GO train line - in people's backyards rather than the street ie Roncesvalles to Dundas West Station - makes no sense either for service to commuters or commercial developments. Details, details. Also a reality of subways/buried LRTs.
joe / March 20, 2012 at 08:01 pm
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You could build half of the DRL for almost nothing if you just added an underground connection from Dundas West station to the GO platform, and ran frequent GO trains back and forth all day long. GO could simply accept TTC transfers and metropasses as fares along this route. If you don't like the Diesel fumes, then spend a little cash and electrify the route. Problem solved.
CanoeDave replying to a comment from Ben / March 20, 2012 at 08:16 pm
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I've posted in favour of the DRL many times in the past but always wondered why Miller's T,,lransit City excluded it. I have had a tour of the Queen St. East underground station and it is way bigger than a streetcar stop. A DRL from Danforth/Pape to Bloor/Dundas under Queen doesn't need many stations to relieve the Young line so the costs can be limited and I still do not understand either the Miller or Ford plan to dump more east west traffic onto Young without relief.
anon / March 20, 2012 at 08:18 pm
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joe raises an excellent point. If the goal of all this subway talk is to help commuters, it would make more sense and be much more cost-effective to focus our energies on commuter rail. Why are commuters from Scarborough taking the SRT to BD to YUS to Union? The cheaper, easier option would be frequent all-day GO service with some more transit-accessible stops in Scarborough.
W. K. Lis / March 20, 2012 at 08:29 pm
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A downtown relief line does not need to follow the street grid nor the railway lines. A tunneled line can be deep, going upward or using longer escalators/elevators at the stations. The Montréal Metro is deep tunneled in most areas. And if the line uses express stations, the local streetcar and bus lines can remain for local service. Most of the cost is at the stations, having less stations would save in the expense of construction and operation.
OgtheDim / March 20, 2012 at 09:18 pm
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Great to see the discussion.

One major quibble Union as it will look after the renovations won't be able to handle the increased volume, either above or below ground. Any idea of using current rails that go there is not doable.

Queen is a more likely option.

I also think that in order for this to work it has to go up to Sheppard or further. Otherwise, it won't divert enough flow that currently goes to Finch.
hhh / March 20, 2012 at 09:22 pm
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even if the construction were to being right now, you won't see them at least until 2016
GRAARG / March 20, 2012 at 09:46 pm
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Yes, please.
adamn / March 20, 2012 at 10:06 pm
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Toronto cant afford anything. lets all just buy electric scooters and drive recklessly for fun. (even in the winter)
Hooman / March 20, 2012 at 10:07 pm
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Why not make the Sheppard subway go south to the Downtown Relief line, where it would make more sense? That way we still get to use the "stubway" for something, and Scarbarians will have a good reason to transfer from LRT on Sheppard East to the DRL. They can just hop onto the Sheppard line and go south.

We also don't waste all the planning and funding that's been made for Transit City.
dmc / March 20, 2012 at 10:25 pm
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Extending the proposed DLR north to Scarborough would also be hugely important politically, since it pre-emptively addresses the inevitable cries of preferential treatment for "downtowners" by making the DLR a "Scarborough" line too, thus making the necessary funding debate much more winnable
Kevin / March 20, 2012 at 10:46 pm
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I have had enough of the silliness about Lower Queen Station.

People, hello! You walk through it every day.

When you walk underneath the tracks, you notice how one set of stairs is to the north and the other to the south, and yet the 2 hallways don't meet?

One is the eastabound platform, the other is the westbound platform....

The area in-between is reserved for tracks....

Just saying......
Arturo / March 20, 2012 at 11:01 pm
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A downtown relief line is not possible, because it would involve too much expropriation of property(i.e. stealing) and therefore is wrong first, and also not politically feasible.

Secondly, if you built a downtown relief line it would compete a few GO trains and if you haven't noticed the TTC doesn't actually compete with GO trains on a serious level at the present time. I don't think that that's a coincidence.

Finally, there is one place you could easily run a line which is in the Don Valley but there would be immense backlash from environmentalist groups. However, if you could get away with it, as a resident of Scarborough, I would be glad to scrap LRTs for that. Very few people in Scarborough want LRTs, they do positive harm to the street.
Shawn / March 20, 2012 at 11:12 pm
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I'm kind of fed up of constantly hearing about Sheppard when the subway there its as empty as libraries are right now; the Queen and King lines badly need something to support them. The Queen streetcar at anytime other than 4am in the morning is so packed that you can't breathe. Its insane.
rbluddite replying to a comment from Kevin / March 21, 2012 at 12:13 am
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No. There is an actual station. I was in it a long time ago. I believe one of those locked doors along the wall of the corridor leads to it. But I think it is true that with the PATH system, it would be very hard to build a subway there now.
Derek / March 21, 2012 at 12:26 am
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More on Lower Queen from Transit Toronto:

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5006.shtml
Elle replying to a comment from CanoeDave / March 21, 2012 at 12:31 am
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Under Miller and Giambrone, I believe DRL was not included in Transit City because they were going to make DRL the next big thing that comes right after Transit City is completed. Plus Transit City is a LRT plan, DRL is a subway plan.
Joe / March 21, 2012 at 01:40 am
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"Very few people in Scarborough want LRTs" -True, they may not want LRT, but unless they want to bulldoze all their houses and turn them into condos you can't justify it financially along that corridor.

People along Finch want subways too, even though there's no way to justify it given the densities there. Should we build subways to Fenelon Falls or Barrie too? Everyone who wants a subway raise your hand and we'll just pull one out of this hat.
Ben / March 21, 2012 at 03:43 am
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Interesting to see the term "Galt" thrown around for one of the DRL alignments.

I have only ever heard my father use it.
rick mcginnis / March 21, 2012 at 05:05 am
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You're missing one key component of this issue - Metrolinx. They're the people tasked with actually building new transit infrastructure, not the TTC, and as I learned when I recently wrote a feature (for t.o.night) proposing an LRT along the rail corridors that pass through the downtown core, Metrolinx has no intention of building any such thing. According to their studies - which are based entirely on facilitating business commuters and not regular usage outside of this narrow function - a transit network running through the downtown along the old rail corridors wouldn't pay for itself. Why they'd support building an even more expensive, dedicated subway line through the same area is an even more unlikely scenario.

The biggest obstacle to a DRL - or whatever you want to call it - is the commuter-transit-oriented policies of Metrolinx, at least as far as I can tell. Until that changes, nothing will happen.
Derek replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / March 21, 2012 at 07:44 am
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For what it's worth, Metrolinx has indicated that it is quite interested in a DRL.

http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/11/metrolinx_still_toys_with_the_idea_of_downtown_relief_line/

But, that's not really the point I'm trying to make here. What interests me is the fact that there seems to be at least some willingness on the part of the City and its citizens — or taxpayers, if you will — to embrace alternative revenue tools/sources to fund transit expansion. If that's actually the case, a DRL would be a more useful bit of infrastructure to build. There is, after all, already provincial money in place to fund a more than adequate LRT on Sheppard.
Sam / March 21, 2012 at 08:27 am
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Looks like a great plan. I LOVE IT!!!
rick mcginnis replying to a comment from Derek / March 21, 2012 at 08:58 am
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I remember Metrolinx' announcement - but nothing's been heard of it since then, and no one at city hall, not Ford or Stintz or anyone who could make a case for this, has said a thing about it. Granted they're fighting over a totally different field, one miles away, but you'd think if there was the will to build ANY sort of DRL, in whatever form, now would be the time to bring it up.

Which is the point of your piece, I know. But the problem at this point is that any attempt to suggest this will get you accused of "diluting the argument" or "confusing the issue" or "talking about pie in the sky projects" - none of which would be true, but since nothing's actually getting built anyway, all the energy is going into rhetoric right now. (The comments sections for any transit piece here are a prime example of this.)

I hate to say it, but Terence Corcoran of the Post had a great suggestion when he said that we should all just shut up, step back, and try to look at the problem again. And yes - this city in 20 years without a DRL of any type is a big problem.

(And FWIW, I'm not crazy about Metrolinx' stub of a DRL/pressure release valve for Union. To be sure, Union will be a nightmare in five years, even with new platforms and expanded facilities, due to increased ridership on GO. But a DRL needs to be more than just a pressure release valve - it needs to expand into the eastern and western suburbs to give an alternative route in and out of the downtown, which is why I like the rail corridor idea. Not that I have any hope that it - or anything, at this point - will get built. So much for my optimism.)
Steven replying to a comment from Bob dylan / March 21, 2012 at 09:46 am
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Well said!
Arma / March 21, 2012 at 09:56 am
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I think a DRL makes sense. I currently work at King and Bathurst. The Bathurst streetcar, at rush hour, is useless. By the time you get to the Bloor-Danforth line, you have to wait 2 subways to finally squeeze in. I tried taking the King Streetcar all the way to Dundas West station, to avoid that whole stretch of the BD Subway, and while it's a much more pleasant ride, the darn streetcar ALWAYS short-turns so there's no point taking it. If there was a relief line it would do wonders for easing congestion along the Bathurst/Spadina streetcars, the BD line, and the Yonge-University Spadina line.

That being said though the sububs DO need either LRTs or Subways.
Shane / March 21, 2012 at 10:36 am
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Won't happen, as long as there are 44 councilors looking out for themselves. They remind me of figure skating judges, trading votes for their own benefit.
Carl / March 21, 2012 at 11:52 am
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I'm not the least bit surprised that BlogTO's commenters were easily fooled by ford and led around in this debate, but other news places have on the web have always discussed it in terms of a comprehensive plan. Ford is a fuckign moron and I don't know how anyone in their right mind could believe a word out of his mouth.

If there's money for subways it should go towards a DRL, it should be seperate from the LRT discussion and funding and the LRT lines should go in despite what some morons in the mayor's office think.

the Sheppard subway is a moot point; there's no density for it, there's no projected density for it for the next 40 years. There's no money for it, even if you canceleld all the LRTs, the government will take the money back and decide what to fund from there, if anything (R. Moscoe described this nicely). none of the assessments have been done, no private partners have come forward and no constrcution has started, even if the LRTs were scrapped for one shitty subway extension, it would take a ridiculously long time to construct it given all the work that ahs to be done prior to shovels in the ground.

It would be irresponsible and incredibly stupid to scrap a comprehensive and appropriate plan like the LRT, for one shitty little subway extension. We don't even know if one could be put there, ford has no plan. If we scrap LRTs, it would eb for nothing, there's no plan there, no funding, no need, no assessments.

This is a discussion that some others on some other websites have been havign for quite some time, apparently, and not surprisingly, BlogTO has not been having this discussion.
moe replying to a comment from Bob dylan / March 21, 2012 at 01:13 pm
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U need to perhaps rethink that. The proximity of Sheppard to boonies and 401 throughout the city, and the rapid development along the Sheppard, yorku's expansion, accessibility to uptown malls (i know :() all claim a higher density as oppose to Eglinton which is already a well-established area and could be verily served by LRT as the only choice.
Alex E replying to a comment from Carl / March 21, 2012 at 01:32 pm
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Spoken like someone who has never been on blogTO before. I didn't think it was possible to go to a thread on this site that didn't have some mention of transit and Ford.

I support a DRL for sure. I get on at Eglinton in the morning(heading north, luckily) and the trains are already jam-packed heading south. I don't understand how they could possibly fit in all the people that must be trying to get on by the time they get to Bloor. A DRL from a Sheppard stop to Union would be great. If most people get off and take the streetcar west at the southern Yonge stops though, wouldn't a DRL just increase the already at-capacity streetcar lines? I feel like we can't just focus on building a single line, and need to look at the impact that line will have on the system as a whole. If a DRL will increase the number of people taking the subway south, then we need to make sure we have the infrastructure in place to handle them all when they get off at their stop.

I can see Metrolinx being a big problem. In Durham one of the worst things they ever did to their transit systems was merge them into on big regional system. In Toronto look what amalgamation did to the city! Whenever you merge things you get big problems because now more people have to come to a decision together on things that may only concern a few of them. I understand wanting to have a regional plan, but that doesn't mean you have to merge systems. The point of the TTC is to handle people who live and travel in Toronto. If Metrolinx is focusing on people who commute in and out of Toronto then that is fine, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the TTC. Metrolinx should just be an entirely separate entity which can plan and implement things in Toronto, but that must work with the TTC.
Ben Carter / March 21, 2012 at 05:17 pm
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Not an expert on this by any means but I've always felt King would be more suited to the DRL than would Queen. All those condos = more potential riders and closer to all attractions (Exhibition Grounds, Exhibition GO, Fort York, Skydome, Convention Centre, etc.).
Bob dylan replying to a comment from Ben Carter / March 21, 2012 at 06:41 pm
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True, after all, King is the busiest streetcar route. But there are contextual challenges with PATH, existing streetcar tracks, tower foundations, heritage properties, geographic limitations, etc etc that need to looked into before thats a viable option.
Vote NDP in the next federal/provincial election / March 21, 2012 at 07:10 pm
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The DRL would indeed have rider potential and this is where we can build subways without the operating losses. At Queen Station, there's an underground tunnel that goes east-west that the public doesn't see. That can be a start for the DRL.
Mik / March 22, 2012 at 09:51 am
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I agree with Hooman's comment about making the Sheppard subway into the DRL. Turning the Sheppard line down Don Mills and somehow getting to Queen before turning back West makes a lot of sense. That way congestion is eased both on Yonge all the way from Sheppard to Queen, and on Queen. I had the misfortune of taking the Queen streetcar a few times last year during rush hour, and it was by far the most unpleasant transit experience of my life. I'd rather walk.

Also, not having to transfer from Sheppard to the DRL is a huge motivator in getting people to use transit. The Shops at Don Mills would also get many more visitors. Eventually connecting the Sheppard line out West would also help. Another benefit is building an LRT on Sheppard east of Don Mills then makes more sense as the Sheppard subway would actually go somewhere.
GRAARG / March 22, 2012 at 03:46 pm
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Who says the DRL has to look like a normal subway line? What about it running express from Pape to Union or Keel to Union? Yep, I know that sorta shadows some GO routes – my point is that a DRL does not necessarily need to look like any other line with a stop every x metres.

“The Drain” in London has two stops – one on each end – and is simply there to move huge quantities of people from Waterloo train and tube stations to Bank tube station (which interconnects with other tube lines).

Similarly the S (“shuttle”) line in NYC takes riders from Grand Central to Times Square with interchanges at either end.

As has been pointed out above, stations cost a lot – both to construct and to expropriate the land at surface (contrary to what was written above, appropriation of land is not stealing, the landowner is paid market value and there is an appeal process). Tunnels cost relatively less.

If the primary goal is “downtown relief” then we should examine possibilities beyond the usual and what is depicted above. We need to understand where the people on the Yonge line originate from and travel to and also where the people who swarm Yonge and Bloor to the point of it being unsafe due to crowding originate from.

It may make the most sense to have 10 km of track with a mere 3 stops. But, for once, we should let the data speak.
Gline replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 25, 2012 at 05:16 am
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To be frank, the DRL should really be either an LRT line or a monorail line (as much as I've objected to such a form of transit in the past.) Both would be better than digging another hole in the ground and building stations, which is what we all know that the TTC will build. Either that, or the TTC and do what STM in Montreal does and dig said subway tunnels really, really deep so that neighborhoods won't be disrupted due to the building of stations or emergency exits.
Yeah Right replying to a comment from Mik / March 25, 2012 at 05:38 am
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The only reason you had problems with the Queen streetcar is likely this:

a) you left late for what you wanted, and were caught in rush hour traffic

b) you expected said streetcar to get you there despite said rush hour traffic

The problems with the Queen streetcar are mostly due to the amount of automobile traffic on Queen Street; lessen that by eliminating left-hand turns and the like, and the Queen streetcar would be amazing (one way to make things better on Queen and still keep street rail-if possible, and that's a VERY big 'if'-COULD be to make it into a LRT line that would be buried for half of the run [say from around the Humber loop all the way to Woodbine and the Woodbine streetcar yard] and then come up around the Beaches area, but a lot of preliminary work would have to be done, as well as feasibility studies on such an endevour.)

In the meantime, you should try to make sure that you leave early enough to get where you are going on Queen, and also realize that any delays that happen are not the fault of the streetcar itself, but of people driving cars, trucks, etc. and the accidents that occur because of them.
joe / March 25, 2012 at 06:36 pm
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The western part (Ft York, Rouncyvale etc) already has LRT, why do they need a subway. In fact Rauncyvale's LRT line was recently rebuilt. Why spend $$ on subways?
Krupo replying to a comment from joe / March 29, 2012 at 09:02 pm
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A streetcar isn't an LRT.

Go to Yonge and Bloor at 8:30 am to see why a DRL is needed.
John replying to a comment from Ben / April 30, 2012 at 01:15 pm
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Lower Queen was 'roughed in' and is very real, built above or bellow the current station. it is closed off but is there.
jracken / May 2, 2012 at 06:25 pm
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The city should have made a decision about a downtown subway line years ago so the subway development could have gone in hand with the general redevelopment to the south of queen area, but it's probably too late now for that. Now the city has been left short of a properly thought out integrated transport solution, instead of ramshackle patch ups.
jracken / May 2, 2012 at 06:28 pm
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but seriously, a subway line around king/queen would have been amazing, both of those streets could have been stripped of their cumbersome streetcarlines, easing traffic up no end and allowing some of the most population dense areas of the city (even more so once all those condos are built and populated) access to reliable and fast public transport.

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