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City

Finally a poll on Toronto transit plans that doesn't suck

Posted by Derek Flack / February 16, 2012

Toronto transit pollAlthough the next municipal election is years away, following council's special meeting on transit planning, this has been the week of the poll. First Stratcom weighed in on the mayor's popularity and the degree to which Toronto is divided on transit strategy, and then Forum Research came along with its own survey, which seemed to indicate a clear preference for subways over at grade transit.

It wasn't too hard, however, to poke holes in some of the conclusions drawn from the data reported by each company. The question that served as the basis for Stratcom's poll misrepresented Rob Ford's transit plan, while the Forum Research poll included a virtually meaningless question that pitted LRT against subways with no additional context (The Toronto Sun, of course, picked up on that particular stat).

Enter Leger Marketing, who posed more specific questions and provided crucial background information to its online survey group. "When you ask people, 'do you prefer subways or light rail,' a razor-thin majority chooses subways. But when you let them compare the plans on the table today, there's a clear preference for City Council's light-rail plan," executive vice president of Leger Marketing Dave Scholz said in a press release.

Here are some of the findings Leger has reported today:

  • 51 per cent believe Toronto should "keep the light-rail lines as voted on by City Council", while 38 per cent agree with the mayor's preference to "stop the light-rail lines and build subways instead."
  • Only 32 per cent agree that "we should build subways because it's what Rob Ford promised in the election, and he has a mandate, even if it means overriding the city council's vote on the matter."
  • 91 per cent believe that "smart transit planning is done for the long term and should not be changed every time a new government is elected."
  • When asked to choose between subways and light rail in abstract terms, respondents prefer subways by a margin of 50 per cent to 40 per cent. However, 82 per cent agree that "Toronto should have a mix of subways, light rail, streetcars and buses, depending on the number of people living in the neighbourhoods."

Lest I get too congratulatory, it's worth noting that Leger is working with a considerably smaller sample than its counterparts. Its survey involved 504 respondents (both Stratcom and Forum Research were well above 1000), and yields a margin of error of 4.5 per cent 19 times out of 20.

Okay, no more posts on surveys/polls for this week. I promise.

Photo by Christian Bobak

Discussion

34 Comments

W. K. Lis / February 16, 2012 at 01:34 pm
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Where's the question on which house I want? The 5,000 sq. ft. house in Forest Hill or the 1000 sq. ft. house in Rouge Hill?
Toronto Mayor Rob Ford / February 16, 2012 at 01:37 pm
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It's all about subways. All about subways. It's all about subways. I'm building subways. Building subways. The people come up to me and I'm building subways. It's all about subways. If you see any graffiti just call 911.
Jb / February 16, 2012 at 01:42 pm
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Most subways globally that the Fords carelessly reference as examples are actually above ground outside of the city (as in the suburbs). Just sayin'.....
billy replying to a comment from Toronto Mayor Rob Ford / February 16, 2012 at 01:43 pm
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I love you Rob!!!
sdfaljk / February 16, 2012 at 02:14 pm
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Of course more people want subways. Who wouldn't. But the reality is, the City does not have the density to support it (where they are being proposed), as you all know. In my opinion, these polls are a complete waste of time. Unless people know ALL the facts there's no point in asking average Joes for their opinion. These people know nothing about City planing and/or transit planing. Bottom line is, our Mayor is are complete idiot.
dnr / February 16, 2012 at 02:31 pm
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Bully for you, Chilly for me
Got to get a rain check on pain
Doug Ford / February 16, 2012 at 02:40 pm
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People who support LRT are just a bunch of pinko union workers. Scarborough is getting screwed. Rabble rabble rabble.

PS Vote for me when I run for MP.
LRT RUINS NEIGHBOURHOODS / February 16, 2012 at 02:44 pm
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amirite?
Alex / February 16, 2012 at 02:45 pm
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No way, only 50 percent versus 40 percent for subway over light rail in the abstract? I thought 100% of people would want subways over light rail in general (not taking into account cost and need). I guess light rail has the nice part of riding on the surface, more frequent stops (so not so much walking between them), and not getting crammed onto subway platforms, but in general I thought more people would like the relative warmth of subways in the winter.
Estie / February 16, 2012 at 02:51 pm
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Maybe Ford can auction off a rag used to mop the sweat from his fupa as a way to raise funds for the subway.

Huuk / February 16, 2012 at 03:02 pm
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Subway or No Way!
Subway > LTR
Anyone that thinks different is doing something crazy...like considering costs or something.
Aliengoo / February 16, 2012 at 03:03 pm
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Really think in 1946 they knew the Yonge subway line would become so well used? No plebiscite/referendum , City council needs to start digging,and implement road tolls to get Toronto moving.At this rate, 2014 will arrive,with another administration.We'll be no further ahead.
Timmy replying to a comment from Aliengoo / February 16, 2012 at 03:06 pm
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"Really think in 1946 they knew the Yonge subway line would become so well used?"

Why don't you do some research and find out?

We'll wait.
RDS / February 16, 2012 at 03:07 pm
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Here is the best part of that poll:

We should build above-ground light rail if it allows us to build more rapid transit, more quickly, in more neighbourhoods in Toronto: 64% Agree, 32% Disagree

We should build subways in Toronto, because underground transit would be less disruptive to cars, even if it costs more and takes longer to build: 62% Agree, 34% Disagree

Presumably 62% of those surveyed also agreed with "have cake" and "eat cake"...

If politicians and the media would spend more time giving people facts and less time either telling them what to think or asking them for their knee-jerk uninformed opinions, perhaps we could have a serious debate about something.
kstop / February 16, 2012 at 03:21 pm
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I am scared to google "fupa".
dnr / February 16, 2012 at 03:36 pm
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I was scared as well
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FUPA
RB / February 16, 2012 at 03:57 pm
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I believe that subways are the prefered mode of transportation. However, I see subway use more in the core (downtown relief line) and only on highly travelled routes where they merit the expense of construction. Other routes would be well serviced by LRT. I have used LRTs in Boston and they serve the city well there. Let's put the money where it serves, and moves the most people in a timely fashion...not simply build subways as the only option simply because of an election promise. The mayor, council, and the tax payers paying for this deserve compromise & rational in making the best decision. Not grandstanding block heads!
Zach Swan / February 16, 2012 at 04:12 pm
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Asking citizens in a poll which they prefer on something as important, expensive, strategic and long term as rapid transit is nice but foolish to act on. You'll get similar quality results to those local newspaper polls that ask for the "best Mexican Restaurant" and get Taco Bell as the overwhelming winner.
Adam replying to a comment from sdfaljk / February 16, 2012 at 04:18 pm
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i've said it before and i'll say it again: DEMOCRACY DOESN'T WORK!! why does the average joe's opinion matter? the average joe is not a qualified transit planner.
Captain Awesome replying to a comment from Alex / February 16, 2012 at 04:32 pm
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"No way, only 50 percent versus 40 percent for subway over light rail in the abstract?"
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I think, in this case, you can't have a pure "abstract" point of view. The recent debates are very fresh in people's minds, and they're still answering the poll in the context of what happened last week.

It's very difficult to design a non-leading poll, but sometimes external influences are unavoidable.
Alex (downtown) / February 16, 2012 at 05:49 pm
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It's not about subways versus light rail, it's about how much we get for how much we spend. Ford wants to use downtown taxpayer dollars to create a small development corridor to benefit a few well-placed developers in Scarborough. Anybody who has been on a subway, streetcar, or bus during rush hour knows we need more transit for everybody. The priority for transit construction has to be riders, not developers.

All of us who don't own cars want more transit lines. But dividing those billions of dollars among a million-odd taxpayers adds up pretty fast, and we want to see something for the money spent. We want lines out to the airport and York University; we already have a line that goes to Scarborough Town Centre. It's about the taxpayers.
Craig replying to a comment from Aliengoo / February 16, 2012 at 09:52 pm
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I suggest you do some research on transit in Toronto. You can start here: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5102.shtml

The first proposals for a subway start in 1909, nothing got built until 1946...It like a tradition or something.
Lonnie / February 16, 2012 at 10:48 pm
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That FUPA link is quite ironic.
drl / February 17, 2012 at 12:13 am
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- "91 per cent believe that "smart transit planning is done for the long term and should not be changed every time a new government is elected." -

Does that mean 9 per cent believe that smart transit planning is done for the short term and should be changed every time a new government is elected?
Fresh_Start / February 17, 2012 at 01:52 am
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The fact that y'all think that there's no inherent bias in the wording of the questions is a sick joke. Leger's loaded questions are not being framed as LRT vs. subways, but rather the heroic anti-Fords vs. the villanous Mayor.

Oh and I wonder what that 91% thought about David Miller throwing out decades of subway feasibility planning done by all of his predecessors to put forward his own LRT-based propaganda?
Stale_Fart replying to a comment from Fresh_Start / February 17, 2012 at 10:37 am
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The mayor isn't a villain. He's just an ignoramus.
Edgar Ortner / February 17, 2012 at 10:57 am
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Such a silly article. The Leger poll is not un-skewed - it is differently-skewed.

How do you know if you are getting good unbiased transit analysis? If someone tells you LRT is nothing like St.Clair - they are wrong or lying. If someone tells you that LRT is exactly like St.Clair they are wrong or they are lying.
Nick replying to a comment from Aliengoo / February 17, 2012 at 10:58 am
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Actually both the Yonge and Bloor lines had very well used streetcar lines (running in mixed traffic), and it was clear that it was time to replace them with subways. That is, the demand was there. That is not the case in Scarborough, and what is proposed is far superior than what existed on Yonge and Bloor before the subways went in, namely LRTs running in their own right of ways. Perhaps in 50 years we can revisit the idea of putting in a subway but until then let's use public money wisely to serve the greatest numbers of people.
franklin / February 17, 2012 at 12:13 pm
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In all the nit-picking about which poll is more or less biased, everyone seems to be missing the most salient point ... all three polls give basically the same result. This being that council made the correct decision. It is a very complicated debate, and therefore hard to frame in a single question. But no matter how you frame it, the general public has an idea of what is going on and have a clear opinion on it.

As with most issues in society, we all need to spend more time looking for similarities than differences.
Lee Zamparo replying to a comment from Edgar Ortner / February 17, 2012 at 01:23 pm
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LRT on Eglinton, Finch, Scarborough LRT will have stops much further apart (300 - 500m) than on St. Clair.

LRT will not pay on the train, but before boarding, unlike the streetcar service on St. Clair

LRT will be composed of 3 or 4 joined cars, with a total capacity of hundreds, versus the capacity of 1 street car on St. Clair.

What about the above statements are lies or wrong? That's not even considering the differences between right of way or average speed, which remain to be determined.

If someone tells you that LRT is exactly like St. Clair, they are wrong or lying.
Pro-Ford Comment Trolls replying to a comment from Lee Zamparo / February 17, 2012 at 02:28 pm
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u r all idiet's!!!!

just look at this crazy traffic on St. Clare from 8:40 rush hour THIS MORNING

http://meslin-ohxz.posterous.com/traffic-chaos-heres-the-st-clair-nightmare-84

you cant even move!!!!

Rob FORD for presidant!!!!!!1
Mayor Ford / February 18, 2012 at 11:41 am
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SUBWAY SUBS FOOT LONG CLASSIC ITALIAN SUBS NO VEGGIES MEATBALLS SUBS SUBWAY SUBS
Mayor Ford / February 18, 2012 at 11:54 am
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I don't understand why people are so opposed to LRTs at grade? A significant part of the yonge/university and bloor/danforth lines are above ground - where it makes sense, in the low-density suburban areas of the city.
RosamondPa66 / March 1, 2012 at 02:14 am
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Couldn't stop reading, very captivating.

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