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City

Council votes against Ford to return to LRT transit

Posted by Staff / February 8, 2012

Toronto Council Transit Revolt FordAlthough Rob Ford continued to proclaim that "taxpayers want subways" the folks on city council proved they don't buy that theory, earlier today adopting a motion put forward by Karen Stintz to return to a LRT-focused transit plan that looks a lot like the first phase of Transit City. After a marathon special meeting at City Hall today, the final tally was 25-18 in favour of the TTC Chair's transit strategy, which includes light rail on Finch Avenue, an at-grade section on Eglinton East and a proposal to investigate the best course of action for Sheppard Avenue East.

Adding mirth to the already-mockery of a meeting, the final vote was attempted a total of three times as councillors claimed they pushed the wrong button. Yes, 8.4 billion worth of transit-bound dollars with which to play, and councillors are stumbling on the first step: pressing the right button. The mis-votes weren't, however, a factor in the final outcome.

Toronto Council VoteIt's very possible Giorgio Mammoliti let out an audible weep following the concluding count. Animated throughout the day, the Ward 7 councillor objected to the idea that LRT was being rammed down his constituents' throats, and at one point even suggested that money be diverted to a Finch BRT, the Eglinton LRT and Sheppard subway instead of at-grade rail in the area.

Ford was similarly indignant about the day's proceedings. At the outset of the afternoon session, the mayor attempted to pass a motion that would delay a vote on Stintz's motion in favour of referring the options for the Eglinton Crosstown to an expert panel, who would evaluate the merits of at-grade or underground passage East of Laird Drive.

When that didn't work — his motion was defeated 19-24 — he would later call the entire meeting into question. I'm very confident the Premier will build subways," Ford said during a brief media scrum after the voting had concluded. "Technically speaking that whole meeting was irrelevant because it's a provincial project."

It remains to be seen what exactly Metrolinx and the province will do with today's news, but pretty much any way that you dice it, this meeting was another huge blow to the mayor and his putative leadership. The councillors who backed the Stintz plan spoke of the need for the city to get the most transit infrastructure possible from the $8.4 billion in funding available. So long as the province endorses today's decision, it appears that's set to be the case after all.

Update (9:05 p.m.)

Ontario Minister of Transportation, Bob Chiarelli, has released a statement on today's council meeting, one that sure makes it sound like the province will support council's decision:

"Earlier today, City Council met to debate the future of public transit in the City of Toronto. As a former Regional Chair and Mayor, I have always respected the will of council, as a whole, to come to a position regarding public transit priorities.

Over the past few weeks, Torontonians have been party to a healthy debate about the future of public transit. For many, public transit is a necessity — it's how employees get to and from work, how seniors get to and from their appointments and how students commute to school.

Throughout the debate, the McGuinty government has maintained a clear stance--we wanted the City to come to a common position so that we all could focus on building much-needed transit infrastructure.

Now that Council has endorsed a position, we have asked Metrolinx to consider the impacts on current transit planning and report back to us as quickly as possible."

Read the statement in its entirety here.

Update (9:25 p.m.)

Rob Ford has posted a note to his Facebook page indicating that he plans to continue to campaign for subways in spite of today's vote. We've copied it in full below:

"Dear Friends,

I campaigned to bring subways to Toronto and the people of Toronto gave me an overwhelming mandate to build subways.

Today, City Council spoke to its wish for the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown. The residents of Scarborough, Toronto's fastest growing region, deserve underground rapid transit — and I promised to deliver it to them. Today's vote does not change my promise.

Great cities, like Paris, London and New York were built around long term transit visions 100 years ago. Subways in Scarborough represent that long term vision for our great city.

I want to thank the thousands of you who called and wrote to my office and to the office of your respective Councillors to tell them that you voted for subways.

I will continue to stand up for taxpayers across Toronto. I will continue to work for a high-speed subway network in Scarborough and across the city.

An investment in first class transit infrastructure will stand the test of time. I want residents, many years from now, to look back at our time and be thankful we did the right thing by building subways that will still be in use.

I will not abandon the people of Scarborough and Finch Avenue to a second class transit solution that will inflict St. Clair Avenue style chaos on neighbourhoods without any promise of improved travel times.

That is, and remains, my commitment to you as Mayor of this great city."

Robyn Urback and Derek Flack

Photo by Mariam Matti

Discussion

101 Comments

transitcity / February 8, 2012 at 09:17 pm
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crawford being a sore loser on twitter, but milcyzn is all class saying he respects the council and their decision, it was very democratic. He will not be supporting ford's rash decision to go against council. And Provincial Transportation Minister Chiarelli says Queen's Park will respect the will of Toronto Council. good night indeed, proud of toronto!
KN / February 8, 2012 at 09:26 pm
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Here's Rob Ford declaring today's emergency council meeting as "irrelevant".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eh2dBlarX4
morga / February 8, 2012 at 09:29 pm
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Hudak tweeted "the war on the car continues" - what a douche!
Rena replying to a comment from morga / February 8, 2012 at 09:32 pm
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Ew, really? What a jerk!

I'm happy to see democracy in action. Also happy that my city counsellor is awesome and listening to people! Yay, Mike Layton!
J*Town / February 8, 2012 at 09:33 pm
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I think this outcome is great for the people of Toronto!

I want to an amazing comment raised by someone on the Toronto Star website:

Dr. Robert (great and underrated Beatles song BTW)
"If traffic is at a standstill why is it the fault of a public transit vehicle like an LRT holding 300 people, as opposed to the legions of SUVs only holding one person (the driver)?"
jfsnotjfk / February 8, 2012 at 09:36 pm
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I guess the votes of the majority of Toronto voters that voted for a long term public transit solution over a messy short sighted solution don't count. How depressingly undemocratic can it get?
actually replying to a comment from jfsnotjfk / February 8, 2012 at 09:39 pm
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more people voted to for the two candidates on the left (53%) then ford got in total (47%). So in all due reality the council is representing the majority of people in the city.
queen park / February 8, 2012 at 09:42 pm
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@ derek queen parks endorses council decision

http://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2012/02/statement-from-minister-bob-chiarelli-on-public-transit-in-toronto.html
No replying to a comment from jfsnotjfk / February 8, 2012 at 09:42 pm
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You are wrong. That is all
jameson / February 8, 2012 at 09:43 pm
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Someone should map the votes to see the urban/suburban split...
BM / February 8, 2012 at 09:44 pm
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Go Toronto Council ! So proud of you today !
jfsnotjfk replying to a comment from No / February 8, 2012 at 09:55 pm
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I guess those councillors on the left don't have to commute from Scarborough. Good for them.
I love T.O. / February 8, 2012 at 09:56 pm
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Please, someone tell Hudak and Ford it's not a war on the car, and please give up that monosyllabic one-dimensional talking point 'car' rhetoric. It's a war on old school jerks like them who drive their SUVs from the suburbs, who think they have some kind of superior rights because they sit in a gas guzzler, who think their own needs should come before the greater good of all citizens who inhabit this great city. Suck it, Hudak. Suck it Rob Ford and your old-school cronies.
Dan / February 8, 2012 at 09:57 pm
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For everyone complaining about councillors favoring "downtown" - as much as I disagree with you, let's agree to work together in the next mayoral election and bring in somebody who will deamalgamate. Then the Etobicokans and everyone else in the burbs can run their own cities again, and leave those of us downtown alone.
Paul Fitzpatrick / February 8, 2012 at 10:01 pm
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Mayor Ford is disingenous: he also said he would eliminate the gravy. The subway would be "gravy" - needing well over a billion of municipal tax dollors. Hopefully he will just resign.
jfsnotjfk replying to a comment from Dan / February 8, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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It's your type of isolationist attitude that has the rest of Canada rolling their eyes at Toronto.
sezme / February 8, 2012 at 10:10 pm
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A win for democracy!
A loss those mythical creatures who are always going up to Rob Ford to tell him how right and how great he always is.
Wiki metrolinx / February 8, 2012 at 10:11 pm
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The agency has been criticized for not having enough tooth in planning transit outside of municipal politics, despite being established to take political bickering out of transportation planning.[5] After Rob Ford was elected Mayor of Toronto in December 2010, he declared Transit City, the provincially-funded transit expansion plan of light rail lines, dead. These lines were a large component of Metrolinx’s 2008 Big Move.[6] Metrolinx was again criticized when, in January 2012, its CEO declared that it would bend to what Toronto City Council wanted regarding how the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT line should be built. The issue centred on whether the more suburban stretches of the line, from Laird Dr. to Kennedy Station, should be built at street level to save costs of building it underground.[7]
Wiki metrolinx replying to a comment from Wiki metrolinx / February 8, 2012 at 10:12 pm
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January 2012, its CEO declared that it would bend to what Toronto City Council wanted regarding how the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT line should be built
Angela / February 8, 2012 at 10:19 pm
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Ford is right - we should be building with the long term in mind.

Have any of you heard of the Scarborough LRT? Or better yet, tried to take it during rush hour? Scarborough isn't getting any smaller, and LRTs are NOT the answer.

Scarborough is, yet again, getting the shaft. And not surprisingly, the blogto downtown-centric community is happy.

Oh, and by the way - I am aware that Ford has a weight problem. So spare me the he-is-fat-and-therefore-stupid "arguments".

Sarah A replying to a comment from jameson / February 8, 2012 at 10:29 pm
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That would be interesting. Living downtown, I'm too often frustrated by how many issues that directly affect the core of the city are decided by interests of those who don't live here. Thanks, Mike Harris. Not. In this issue, however, which primarily concerns commuters from the suburbs, perhaps their voices are more important; let them decide what they want for themselves. Of course, more objective information about the possibilities on the table must be provided to the public, and their voices listened to in order for this to be valid. The way this whole thing has proceeded is beyond ridiculous. Personally, I think subways are better, but we should've built them 100 years ago. Now it's a little trickier.
educateyourselffirstbeforecommenting replying to a comment from Angela / February 8, 2012 at 10:36 pm
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it is a srt an outdated technology, it is not a lrt. Scarborough currently has no lrts, once again a ford supporter without knowing the facts.
Chris / February 8, 2012 at 10:43 pm
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Scarborough, the GTA's future Paris.
OOO / February 8, 2012 at 10:49 pm
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Hey, can you make an article that just reads, in extremely large font, "LRT is not a streetcar, SRT is not LRT". thanks.
sezme replying to a comment from Angela / February 8, 2012 at 10:55 pm
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Pretty much the only people who bring up Rob Ford's weight here are you Rob Ford defenders (if you really are more than one person).
sezme replying to a comment from Angela / February 8, 2012 at 11:00 pm
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To be serious for a moment, while subways are undeniably faster, surface rail transit is much more suited to building business along its route, and generally makes for a more enjoyable ride. Don't underestimate the power of having a nice view. With surface rail, you get to see what's going on at street level and be more inclined to get off and shop. John Parker made that point today in council, and I'm glad someone finally did.
InsideScoop / February 8, 2012 at 11:00 pm
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Actually I heard Ford call 911 on city council!
cdndry / February 8, 2012 at 11:00 pm
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The Eglington line should be built as a subway.
The 401 should get a diamond lane for ttc buses instead of a Sheppard lrt.
Toronto has a lot of train tracks which could be used for go trains which run around the clock. Build some more stations. During construction time no additional problems. This could safe tons of money.
Rob replying to a comment from actually / February 8, 2012 at 11:00 pm
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Wow, how many times has this been used. The only way That Fordo would have lost in a two-candidate election is if almost all of Pants' voters' second choice was Smitty.

If a fairly small amount of people chose Fordo, or not to vote, he would win.

It's a little hard, but not impossible, to believe that that many Pants votes would go to Smitty.
Rob replying to a comment from educateyourselffirstbeforecommenting / February 8, 2012 at 11:07 pm
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What does SRT stand for?
here replying to a comment from Rob / February 8, 2012 at 11:09 pm
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http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml
stopitman replying to a comment from Angela / February 8, 2012 at 11:09 pm
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Ah, some saneness has come out of city hall. No point on wasting money for a service that would lose money when more people across a wider swath of the city could get city without spending as much money. Once those lines become congested (in the far, far future, probably 40-50 years), they can be upgraded to subways that are appropriate for high densities that aren't found in the boroughs. For a right-wing "businessman" (lol), Ford sure thinks that subways are a great cheap social project.

@Angela - the SRT was a poor choice that was chosen because the technology was being made by a provincially owned company that is now owned by Bombardier in Thunder Bay, so it's entirely different than an LRT that is used by a large number of cities in the EU. However, the SRT _does not_ have the ridership to support a subway, and I doubt it will have the ridership to support it for a while. It only receives 39,000 riders per day, whereas several of the downtown streetcar lines will carry 10,000+ riders/hr during rush hour and the BD/YUS carries 30,000 riders/direction/hour (60,000 passengers/hour). The SRT was also part of the Metro plan to create smaller "downtowns" outside of downtown, many of which failed to become large like Scarborough Town Centre.

Secondly, with regards to jfsnotjfk's comments. Your commute being hard to get to work is not a valid reason to spend $300M+/km for a subway that loses money. An LRT serves the same purpose as a subway but at much lower capital cost, higher frequency than could be supported otherwise, and at much lower operating cost. Considering the density in North York and Scarborough are so low, I seriously doubt any sane real business would consider building a subway before an LRT. Heck, the Bloor streetcar line in 1952 carried 9,000 riders/peak hour/direction (Duncan [Operations Manager], 1952), meaning that it would've had higher ridership than Sheppard does today. There's a very good reason why Toronto and Manhattan built subways AFTER the streetcars became overcrowded, and that's because the demand was there to let the company make money. Sheppard is the only subway line that loses money, and it's easy to see why when there is such abysmal ridership across all of its stations.
jfsnotjfk replying to a comment from Sarah A / February 8, 2012 at 11:14 pm
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Your are right. Subways are better and it is trickier to build them now than a hundred years ago. Scarborough's population 100 years ago was about 3500. I don't think it would have been even contemplated.
jfsnotjfk replying to a comment from sezme / February 8, 2012 at 11:20 pm
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I don't think that most people that use public transit see it as a pleasure cruise. Most do not have the luxury of leisure that you speak of and just want to get to work and make a living.
Bill replying to a comment from sezme / February 8, 2012 at 11:21 pm
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Keep that in mind when someone's standing right next to you smoking a big fat stick of nicotine and blowing smoke in your face or everything's at a crawl due to a sub zero temps.. I'm actually really interesting to see how these vehicles handle during an ice storm.. should be interesting..
Zach Swan / February 8, 2012 at 11:22 pm
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There are no words to describe how utterly stupid and short-sighted the outcome of this meeting is. Today is a horrible day for the City of Toronto that will have a negative impact on it for the rest of most of our lifetimes.
Bill replying to a comment from Rob / February 8, 2012 at 11:22 pm
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"Shitty Rail Transit"
Liz / February 8, 2012 at 11:24 pm
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I wonder if Ford/Hudak are aware that we would have an underground subway along Eglington were it not for their fellow Mike Harris. Bob Rae's NDP made a deal with Metro Toronto (pre-amalgamation) to build said subway. Constuction had begun when Mr. Harris came to power, but he cancelled the deal and halted the project in what was to be the first of many anti-Toronto moves by his administration.
MikeTee / February 8, 2012 at 11:27 pm
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Can someone tell me what happened to the plan for the proposed Scarborough East LRT line to UofT Campus? With this vote, is this still dead?

As someone who commutes from downtown to UofT Scarborough every day. Ford's plan was wrong for this city (The whole city overall). I support council.
subway replying to a comment from sezme / February 8, 2012 at 11:28 pm
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Inclined to shop? Do you realize people want rapid transit as a means to get home from their commute as quickly as possible? If its -20 outside forget about it. People are not going to disrupt their trip and shop a one place frequent enough to matter anyways. You obviously don't commute from the suburbs, but most people on their commute are catching up to their sleep, reading the morning paper, or zoned out to their electronics.
Noneofyourbeeswax replying to a comment from KN / February 8, 2012 at 11:31 pm
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Rob Ford declares council vote irrelevant, demonstrating just how much he loves democracy.
David / February 8, 2012 at 11:32 pm
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People who can't even distinguish SRT from LRT are also experts that just KNOW the subway is the way to go.
subway replying to a comment from sezme / February 8, 2012 at 11:35 pm
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Also if you think Scarberia is scenic you are definitely an out of touch latte sipping downtowner.
Transit Shitty / February 8, 2012 at 11:38 pm
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Here we go again, 30 years later we will still be stuck with 3rd world transit.
Chris / February 8, 2012 at 11:38 pm
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I still don't see how this is a loss. We get transit city and a subway extension on sheppard. I don't think anybody on council, provincial or federal governments, or Metrolinx have turned down the private funding that Ford promised for the subway.
houleskis replying to a comment from jameson / February 8, 2012 at 11:41 pm
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@ jameson, check out my twitter, @ houleskis.

I've mapped the geographical vote distribution (good 'ol trusty paint)
A / February 8, 2012 at 11:47 pm
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Living up at Morningside and Finch I was pleased with the outcome of today's meeting. Anyone who thinks that a Sheppard subway will be built by this mayor is delusional. I'd much rather have an LRT line that reaches Morningside/Conlins road (that could be extended in the future to the Zoo and to UTSC) than fantasy subways on Sheppard and according to Mammoliti on Finch. LRT on Eglinton and north leave the door open to future funding going to improve downtown transit in the form of a DRL to Don Mills/Eglinton and along King/Queen corridor. Subways should be built from where the cost per rider (the subsidy) is the least and then extend outwards. LRT will do great things to improve the built form and accessibility of moving around in Scarborough. People forget that massive towers around a Sheppard subway will increase car traffic immensely. They also forget that congestion isn't going to get better, it will only get worse (even if there is a Sheppard subway). It's about rebalancing road use and providing an incentive for smart growth. Leave the transit planning to the professionals.
jfsnotjfk replying to a comment from I love T.O. / February 8, 2012 at 11:48 pm
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When I read anti-car comments like yours I tend to think that there is probably some hypocrisy in what is being said and want to just laugh it off. But then a wave of melancholy sets in and I picture a grumpy, senile old man that spends his days standing at the edge of the road waving his fist at cars as they drive by. (heavy sigh)
JIm replying to a comment from jameson / February 8, 2012 at 11:49 pm
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That's a very good point.. I think that way you would get an accurate & True definition of who wants what instead of the hear-say of what who is believed to want..
poh / February 8, 2012 at 11:50 pm
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You know Mayor Ford, Etobicoke could use some subways too. And by Etobicoke, I mean the area north of Eglinton which your brother and cronie Vincent Crisanti supposedly represent, also known as the non-rich, non-white part of Etobicoke. In the meantime, a Finch LRT will do fine.
Arturo replying to a comment from Dan / February 9, 2012 at 12:00 am
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The principal reason for amalgamation was that the downtown socialists were ruining the core specifically the CBD, because they didn't understand economics and were engaging in ridiculous taxation causing a lot of businesses to flee the core. The burbs were added as a democratic counterwieght to combat their economically insane policies. Amalgamation is somewhat unique. However, the destruction of downtown cores by socialist politicians is not unique - most of the rustbelt cities in the states were ruined by socialist politicians: Detroit(used to be the richest city in all of the United States), Cleveland("The mistake on the lake"), etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw
Jae replying to a comment from educateyourselffirstbeforecommenting / February 9, 2012 at 12:00 am
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Thank you.
moe / February 9, 2012 at 12:11 am
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Tim, get busy with you riding of Niagara Falls. Shut up.
THE MAYOR / February 9, 2012 at 12:17 am
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AHEM!!!! I'm only gonna say this once so lissen up.

See you in a week or three. I'm not at liberty to say which fat farm/boozecan I'll be holed up at but just remember one thing. I'm THE MAYOR and you're not..

( the mayor walks away..shoulders slumped even lower than usual..and seems to contemplate a loser intensive future )
You're the best arturo replying to a comment from Arturo / February 9, 2012 at 12:25 am
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Lol, If you guys were such fucking geniuses why wouldn't you just attract all the businesses is socialists were chasing away and create a utopia?
Aaron replying to a comment from sezme / February 9, 2012 at 12:25 am
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Nice view? Ghetto from end to end. Is there a nice view anywhere on Eglinton? The entire street looks as if it received a triple dose of 'messy urbanism'.
JP / February 9, 2012 at 12:48 am
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The idea that today's events have cancelled some fantastic subway to Scarborough is completely incorrect.

To those of you who are upset, you do realize that the Eglinton Line was always going to be using LRT trains? And that 11KM of this line is still going to be buried underground (Jane to Laird)? Even under Ford's plan, Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre was going to be LRT very similar to what we have now (but with far superior trains).

All that has essentially happened is they elected to put Laird to Kennedy above ground, (saving 2 BILLION) and putting those savings toward a Finch LRT. (Finch has bus rates comparable to Sheppard subway ridership - that road was desperate for a transportation improvement). Ford released a study this week saying that making Laird to Kennedy above ground would add 10 minutes to the trip. We're talking 10 minutes here people! For all this 'our children will regret this' talk! 10 minutes!

Nothing happened today that is 'anti subway'.

In fact, Stinz said today she actually SUPPORTS Ford's desire to create a Sheppard Subway (hi Scarborough residents - THIS is your opportunity for a subway connection. Eglinton never was). She is also putting forth the study of the DRL - a subway.

Lets understand what is actually happening before resorting to 'Left vs Right' and 'Subway vs above ground'.

Pro-Ford Comment Trolls / February 9, 2012 at 01:08 am
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SO HARD TO TYPE!!!
WE CANT STOP CRYING!!!!
The Doctor replying to a comment from Dan / February 9, 2012 at 01:30 am
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YES! The sooner we get the suburbs out of Toronto, the better. They can raise their own taxes, build their own transit, close their own libraries, have their own labour disputes, all while calling each other "Taxpayer" the whole time. Give them the freedom to be miserable gits all on their own again. Better yet, divert all transit funding to build a wall around Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke so we never have to deal with them again!
The Doctor replying to a comment from Zach Swan / February 9, 2012 at 01:31 am
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So stop coming into Toronto and enjoy your life in North York. This city clearly isn't good enough for you.
Transit Shitty / February 9, 2012 at 01:35 am
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I'm so depressed about how badly my master King Ford got beaten today, that my microdick can't get a boner for my bedtime internet porn.
Neil replying to a comment from Bill / February 9, 2012 at 01:43 am
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because we've had so many ice storms this winter?
JR replying to a comment from The Doctor / February 9, 2012 at 02:01 am
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You're absolutely laughable. The core of Toronto couldn't possibly exist in isolation. Unfortunately for you, it requires the surrounding region of a couple million people to keep a machine like that going. Despite earlier comments that amalgamation occurred due to the diminishing downtown tax base and incompetent socialists (???), among other reasons, it was actually Mike Harris looking for 'efficiencies' that didn't exist. In a referendum, Toronto actually voted against amalgamation. Where the de-amalgamate argument get's slippery in this case is the existence of Metro Toronto prior to amalgamation. If all of the boroughs were still separate municipalities, the TTC would still have to be a city-wide agency, and (surprise!) this vote would still include councillors from Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke. Anyways, I'll stop. Pointing out facts is tiresome when people want to conveniently bend history to suit their arcane needs.
Rmund / February 9, 2012 at 02:14 am
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Hovercrafts. We should get hovercrafts.

After all, they could just gliiiide over traffic and construction.
Rodimus Prime replying to a comment from jfsnotjfk / February 9, 2012 at 02:23 am
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The only thing I see from your comments (as well as those of Angela's, Rob's, Transit Shitty's, Aaron's, subway's, AND cdndry's) is that of a person who knows about their nether regions, what comes out of both when the need arises, AND NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.

NONE of you have any facts about transit that you didn't pull out of your assess, yet you all want the rest of us to believe that you know something about transit. Well, you all don't, your lord and master Ford know nothing either, and his defeat on this issue proves it. It's time to face reality and and understand: SUBWAYS ARE TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE AND CAN'T BE BUILT IN TORONTO ANYMORE. They just don't work in the 'burbs. If you all can't deal with this, then I suggest that you all consider getting the game Sin City and playing it to your heart's content, building as many subways to nowhere as you like it (or until such time as the consequences of doing so become evident, and the game's programing arranges for it to be a big mistake.)
Rodimus Prime replying to a comment from Rodimus Prime / February 9, 2012 at 02:25 am
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Oops, that should have been 'Sim City'. My apologies.
JIm / February 9, 2012 at 05:24 am
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I could care less on what they built.. just as long as it actually does get built.. But what I don't understand, is if Subways are so expensive to build, why have they bought 4 tunnel boring machines in the past that cost 58.4 Million?

article can be found here..

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Coupler/2009/October/TBMs_being_built_for_Spadina_extension.jsp
Jordan replying to a comment from JIm / February 9, 2012 at 07:08 am
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It's for the spadina subway expansion that's going up to York / Vaughan, which is currently under construction . It's a different project that doesn't relate to the funding currently being discussed in this article.

http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Spadina_subway_extension/Overview.jsp
Jay / February 9, 2012 at 07:39 am
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Wooo Hooo! Want a union job for life? Get on that track maintenance crew. Toronto will be ripping up LRT lines every 20 years to be replaced!! If anyone thinks Transity City is anything more than a mater plan to bolster union plyement at the city just needs to look at who is backing it. All the usual lefties smothering Stintz at every photo op.

LRT's have their place in the plan but lefties just cannot see a mix of subway, LRT, and burying LRT lines is the best mix for everyone.

This is a war on the suburbs. Mihevc and all his lap dogs downtown want to rule and dictate what is best for the suburbs without having to live here. They keep more services given to peole living in the core that people in the suburbs do not get. While the city core gets subways those of us in the suburbs get slow surface route transit and lose road capacity.

It's time people in the suburbs rise up. That want our tax money but do not want to listen to what we want or need.
FoFu / February 9, 2012 at 07:50 am
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Even if I supported Ford's "plan" for this particular project, I wouldn't care as its just so damn pleasing to see him going down in flames for being such a stubborn uncompromising prick.
WarOnYou / February 9, 2012 at 07:54 am
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There's no such thing as a "war on the suburbs". Get over yourself. If you want a war on the suburbs, I'm sure we could build absolutely nothing for you. Now, go back to Home Depot and wander in the big wide open spaces.
Gordon / February 9, 2012 at 08:26 am
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Is Rob Ford's approach and response really that surprising? It's not like he hid his true personality before running for mayor. I think what's surprising is that people voted for him.

Kudos to council for representing their wards and not allowing themselves to be bullied.
Zach Swan replying to a comment from The Doctor / February 9, 2012 at 08:28 am
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Bite me you pathetic little troll weasel. I live in the downtown core. I've also traveled extensively from Beijing to Barcelona and actually used their transit systems to get around. To return to Toronto and see how utterly pathetic ours is in comparison and see our politicians flounder for decades and attempt to deploy vastly inferior solutions like LRT rather than have the courage to build (and continue to build) the subways we need makes it far too clear that Toronto will never be anything better than a b-level also ran. That is just depressing.
Jildren replying to a comment from Jay / February 9, 2012 at 08:32 am
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Keep drinking that kool aid. It's all a personal conspiracy against Rob ford and has nothing to do with a plan to serve the most people with the least money developed through studies by engineers and experts Over many years that was developed well before ford ever considered running
James / February 9, 2012 at 08:52 am
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Firstly,
Dear Ms. Stintz: Thank you for bringing rational discussion back to the chamber, and for resurrecting a transit plan that profits ALL of the people and not just the Mayor's 'friends'.

Now,
Dear Mr. Mayor: I am going to forward you a grammar school book on Democracy. The decisions of Council are not irrelevant. These decisions (as opposed to the voices you apparently hear in your head) are the actual will of the people as expressed through the Democratic process currently in place in the City of Toronto. You are in no position to sweep that aside, Sir.

In fact, Sir, if you cannot accept and fully support that process and its outcomes with, at long last, some political grace and maturity ( no-one, at this point, expects SOCIAL grace or maturity from you or your cronies )- then it is YOU, sir, who has become irrelevant.

We have watched you bully, and arm twist, and gather a gang to spout your platitudes (while you reserve the same old bumper-sticker slogans for yourself)- all in the name of this apparently endless line of people who keep approaching you in public and telling you to 'stay the course', among other vague instructions - so easily and fictionally applied to any self-serving plan you have for the Toronto that mature, socially conscious people love - and we recognise it for what it is: Your bumbling attempt at despotism.

Let us be clear, Sir. Get in line with true democracy, or GET OUT!
auditorydamage / February 9, 2012 at 08:54 am
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So, subway fans... where's the money gonna come from for that dream project?

The problem has never been the desire to build awesome transit, but the availability of resources. We have the resources to improve transit for people all over the city, including the suburbs you claim there is a "war" on. Why are you so hell-bent on defending a plan with only one actual funded line - which exists in both plans anyway! - and a subway that won't get built without that little thing called "funding", which our mayor has seen fit to brush off for the time being despite making it a centrepiece of his transit plans? That's not vision, that's delusion.

To repeat: There is no subway funded and ready to go. The entire fight over Eglinton was whether to bury a part of the line from Kennedy to Laird; the stretch from Laird to Jane is going to be buried anyway. Council's approved plan also improves transit along the stretch of Sheppard left to rot by Mike Harris and the western part of Finch. This was a conflict between rational people who have a grasp on reality and sloganeers who made a show of fighting those "librul downtowners" while leaving their constituents inhaling the vapour of unfunded fantasy -- or in the case of Mammoliti's constituents, more bus fumes and magic beans.
auditorydamage / February 9, 2012 at 09:01 am
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Correction: Sheppard to be determined at a later date, Scarborough RT to be replaced by an LRT that will likely suck much less in comparison to the existing Lyle Lanley-esque SRT, with other plans already studied and ready to go if and when money appears.

But yeah, screw Finch and everyone else, right? Burying Eglinton all the way == long-term planning and respect for taxpayers, burying from Laird to Jane == short-term planning and third-world transit! Courage!

Honestly, the cognitive dissonance...
Another Angela replying to a comment from jfsnotjfk / February 9, 2012 at 09:15 am
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While I may be an old town resident, I do have the joy of commuting on public transit to Scarborough and home every day and I know that myself and my colleagues are cheering this decision because we will actually get solutions that reach various parts of Scarborough not just a short stretch of underground LRT that goes from mall to mall.
Antony replying to a comment from Jay / February 9, 2012 at 09:15 am
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I love how the Mayor is an expert in Civil Engineering.

* LRT tracks are for some reason so flimsy they need replacement every 20 years, which is terrible,

* But roads that are routinely pounded into potholes every 15 years are a Top Spending Priority, even though their cost comes out of property taxes.

* And subway tunnels and stations (not to mention tracks) are so durable they last forever, ignoring all our 30+ year old subway stations with cracks and groundwater leaking through...
Antony replying to a comment from Jay / February 9, 2012 at 09:18 am
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Also, what is the proper term for the tech used on the Scarborough RT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_Advanced_Rapid_Transit

I like to call it a "Skytrain". It's not LRT because the tracks are still electrified and it can't cross streets at ground level.

Gordon replying to a comment from James / February 9, 2012 at 09:30 am
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Nicely and accurately stated.
i love T.O. replying to a comment from jfsnotjfk / February 9, 2012 at 09:49 am
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dear JFSwhatever. it wasn't an "anti-car" sentiment. it was anti-Hudak, anti-Ford, and anti-anyone in the suburbs thinking they should dictate how the city as a whole is run.

how is that hypocritical? maybe before you read comments you should learn to read.

W. K. Lis / February 9, 2012 at 09:53 am
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How the TTC Commissioners voted:

Karen Stintz, TTC Chair FOR
Peter Milczyn, Vice-Chair AGAINST
Maria Augimeri FOR
Vincent Crisanti AGAINST
Frank Di Giorgio AGAINST
Norm Kelly AGAINST
Denzil Minnan-Wong AGAINST
Cesar Palacio AGAINST
John Parker FOR

How do we get rid of the Rob Ford lapdogs on the TTC commission?
Jack / February 9, 2012 at 10:09 am
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I'm so glad our ancestors didn't view the city so short-sightedly as this generation of councillors. If these morons had been in charge we'd have streetcars running up and down Yonge Street and across Bloor and we'd have nothing underground. Congrats Council, you've fucked up transit in this city for the next 50 years. Feel proud of your accomplishments today!
Todd Toronto / February 9, 2012 at 10:16 am
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I kind-of feel like we're through the looking glass on this. I support the Stintz plan over the Ford plan (because it's realistic), and I'm amused by the number of conservatives who are suddenly fans of hugely expensive, unfunded public transit projects.

But the ideal should be subways. Rob Ford's plan wasn't workable for the same reason we've hardly had any subway construction since 1978. The Province treated transit like its bastard step-child, then Mike Harris downloaded it entirely. And Dalton McGuinty hasn't been much better. And regardless of party, guaranteeing funding for big transit projects has been like pulling teeth on a cheetah.

Rob Ford isn't the bad guy of the piece. Queen's Park is.
PierreNick / February 9, 2012 at 10:23 am
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Oh man, people sure here easily got sucked up on the Ford misinformation hammered in their heads, about 'world-class = underground' and all that.

People--on either side of the fence--are working wayyy too hard to find arguments against one another.

Well we now have arguments against anything else Ford cuts and the likes of Sue-Ann Levy go crazy about.

'You are anti-people, anti-culture, anti-bike! This is so not world-class. I've been to NY and Paris, and they have culture and bike lanes, that's how it's done, they are world class'

.. I'm glad for light rail. It's a shame it had to become such a hot political potato to start with.
JIm replying to a comment from Jordan / February 9, 2012 at 10:49 am
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Thanks Jordan... Crap, if that's where it was going, then I could understand why an underground transit would be pointless... I was under the impression it was being built somewhere else..
Little Fury / February 9, 2012 at 11:10 am
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It bears repeating that Toronto/Scarbourough didn't lose a single kilometre of subway as a result of this vote. The Sheppard subway extension is still on the table and has as little chance of being built by Ford's magic money fairies as it did yesterday morning.
auditorydamage replying to a comment from Jack / February 9, 2012 at 11:21 am
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There were streetcars running up Yonge and across Bloor. Once the population density increased enough, they were replaced by (publicly financed) subways.

Ford : subways :: Newt Gingrich : moon base - you can make all the promises in the world, but if you can't scare up the funding, you won't actually be able to implement them and your constituents end up with nothing to show for all the hot air.

Y'know what road could really use a high-capacity replacement for buses? Lawrence. I have co-workers that get to ride those overloaded buses for an hour per trip. A Don Mills LRT would also be dreamy, particularly if it avoided the aggravating intersection at Overlea and Don Mills.
Ian / February 9, 2012 at 11:35 am
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LRT will work. For 10 to 15 years, maybe. And then they'll begin scratching their heads in thoughts why didn't they build subways in the first place. This shortsightedness will cost us much more money because these LRT's will be replaced by subways in a long run anyway. What a bunch of great thinkers those Councillors, really!
Little Fury replying to a comment from Ian / February 9, 2012 at 12:21 pm
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Unless there's a mass case of amnesia, the reasons for not building subways now will be just as clear in a decade or two. There's no money and no demand in the areas where subways are being proposed. I'll bet that will be just as true in 10-15 years as it is today.
Just Askin' replying to a comment from Ian / February 9, 2012 at 12:21 pm
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Hi Ian. Where did you get the 10-15 year figure for LRT tracks' life expectancy?
sezme / February 9, 2012 at 12:30 pm
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It's becoming quite obvious that the people here and on council who do nothing but bray, "Subways, Subways, Subways!!!" are much less interested in debating the facts on the ground than they are in defending whatever Rob Ford's current agenda happens to be.

First of all, he campaigned with the promise to build a Sheppard subway extension, NOT to build an Eglinton LRT. Only when the province insisted did he agree to build the line on Eglinton (which had already been planned, approved, and funded).

The Eglinton LRT was always (and still will) be buried in the congested areas from way west of downtown to way east of downtown. It's only the outer ends of the line that will be street-level. Money left over from not needlessly burying the ends of the Eglinton LRT can now be used to fund an additional LRT line on Finch which is not Scarborough but also needs rapid transit - and yes, and LRT line is rapid. This is not a downtown streetcar line.

Meanwhile, the Sheppard subway extension is no more cancelled than it ever was. After a year of figuring out how to fund it, Ford still has No Idea how to pay for it. If the funds are there, it can still be built. If not enough funds appear, an LRT extension is a lot better than nothing.

The Subways Only crowd is complaining that a realistic plan is being implemented in favour of a plan that has absolutely no hope. That really isn't very hard to understand.

And to those who insist that Toronto is too cold for street level trains, why is it that our existing subway lines (except Sheppard) all go above ground for long stretches at the extremities and still manage to function all year long. So do our streetcars and busses by the way. It's like you people never actually take transit in this city. Could that be it?
Pro-Ford Comment Trolls replying to a comment from sezme / February 9, 2012 at 12:46 pm
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NO! that is NOT it.

we support FORD because we believe in obeying your Dear Leader! whoever is in charge = always know's whats RIGHT for toronto!

when mike Harris cancelled the Eglington Subway in 1995 we all said goooo mike!!!!!

And now that Rob FORD say's we need it, we are like "YEah!"

Our City Counsel is a bunch of coward's who are Fashists that are Two Step's Left of Joe Stalin!!!!!1
sezme replying to a comment from Pro-Ford Comment Trolls / February 9, 2012 at 01:27 pm
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I stand corrected. Thanks for setting me straight, Pro-Ford Comment Trolls!
Sean / February 9, 2012 at 01:58 pm
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The LRT won't work well on Eglinton East when going down or up the steep hills to/from Leslie. One big snowstorm, one big ice freeze, that's it. It will be stuck. The LRT will be a huge nightmare at Eglinton West and Bathurst area. Goodbye street parking.

Remember the headache on St. Clair West? It will be a nightmare!!! Think the LRT will be cheaper than a subway in the short term? Long term? Nope.

Remind the councillors that voted for the LRT have voted themselves out of office too.
Little Fury replying to a comment from Sean / February 9, 2012 at 02:15 pm
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"The LRT won't work well on Eglinton East when going down or up the steep hills to/from Leslie. One big snowstorm, one big ice freeze, that's it. It will be stuck."

Thank god there's no steep hills there and that the LRT won't be steam-powered.

"The LRT will be a huge nightmare at Eglinton West and Bathurst area. Goodbye street parking."

You mean the bit where it runs underground?

You don't know what you're talking about.

iSkyscraper / February 9, 2012 at 04:56 pm
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Wednesday was a good day for smart people. There is hope for you yet, T.O.
Antony / February 9, 2012 at 07:16 pm
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It's funny that people think that rail transit is unreliable, when not a day goes by that a highway isn't backed up or totally closed because of a car or truck collision.
a wizard / February 9, 2012 at 11:52 pm
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hey ford fans. it's fine that you prefer the subway plan. i just have a question about what many of you have been saying:

if LRT is so bad, how come rob ford's plan for eglinton was still LRT?

are you saying rob ford is stupid?
Alex / February 10, 2012 at 12:36 pm
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It's just so depressing the number of people that actually believe all Ford's lies. I guess that's why we have such terrible political leaders in this country, because the good ones tell the truth and everyone just votes for the bad ones that just lie and tell the people what they want to hear.

I don't understand how anyone could be upset by what happened. We traded a few km of underground LRT for two whole LRTs! This was NEVER about subways vs LRTs, it was simply a choice between burying the Eglinton LRT for a few extra km vs Eglinton LRT above ground for a few km and getting an LRT in Scarborough to replace the SRT AND a desperately needed LRT on Finch!

This should have been such a good moment, and initially when I heard the decision I was happy. But then I got depressed once the mayor of our city immediately started going on TV and lying about subways and dismissing council, and lying about the election results too! You did NOT get an "overwhelming" mandate to build subways, he got less than 50% of the vote! That means >50% of citizens didn't want his ridiculous plan that gave us nothing. I can't believe we're stuck with this liar for another 2.5 years.

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