City
Is Rocco Rossi's "Toronto Tunnel" the second coming of the Spadina Expressway?
Rocco Rossi has just offered the most significant infrastructure proposal of the 2010 mayoral campaign. Dubbed the "Toronto Tunnel," Rossi plans on connecting the Allen and Gardiner expressways via an underground corridor that sounds a lot like a 2010 version of the divisive Spadina Expressway.
Where in the world the money will come from to build such a massive project has yet to be fully worked out -- though tolls on the route are a possibility -- but just a preparatory study of the tunnel specifics will cost in the neighbourhood of $1.5-million.
At a press conference at Eglinton Ave. and Allen Rd. (not depicted) Rossi said of his surroundings, "This intersection is where vision meets opportunity."
Well, he's certainly got the vision thing down, but more in the sense of a peyote-inspired prophecy than anything resembling a pragmatic plan. Despite the fact that a number of other candidates have proposed large-scale subway expansion, this takes the cake as far as sheer boldness goes. It also verges on the delusional. Aside from the costs of such a project, there are serious feasibility questions that immediately come to mind. Not only is there already a tunnel through this corridor -- would this go beneath or around the Spadina subway line? -- but the impact on the primarily residential areas along the tunnel's likely path would be profound.
As the mayoral election nears its last month, there's little doubt that Rossi's campaign needed a jump start. Well, this is a pretty transparent effort to do just that. But given how few specifics have been offered and the plethora of complications that would surround such a project, today's announcement could very well backfire completely.
Update (3:20 pm):
The Rocco Rossi campaign team have added a Q & A about the tunnel to their original press release. Despite the title, however, this little segment answers no questions whatsoever, and makes a few wonderful claims. On the cost of the project: "the cost per mile can be as little as $105 million per kilometre." Wow. That's some interesting math. And, even better, "the Tunnel will not disrupt a single neighbourhood, street or family home." I guess "tunnel" gets capitalized to emphasize that it's a proper place in dreamland.
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Question: How much will the Toronto Tunnel study cost?
Answer: The cost of the study to determine specifications for the Toronto Tunnel will represent a negligible portion of Toronto's overall operating budget. My plans to reduce the Mayor's salary, halve the number of City Councillors and eliminate waste will more than offset the cost and ensure that no increase in overall spending is required.
Question: How will the Toronto Tunnel project be funded?
Answer: There are a variety of financing models that have been used in different jurisdictions to fund similar projects in a fiscally responsible way. A public-private-partnership could work particularly well for this project, but Rocco Rossi will not take any options off the table.
Question: How much will the Toronto Tunnel project cost?
Answer: A determination of an exact cost estimate will require an engineering report. However, similar projects in Switzerland, Australia, Los Angeles, Seattle, Nanjing, and some underway like in Mimi suggest that the cost per mile can be as little as $105 million per kilometre. Keeping costs down will require new accountability measures at City Hall like the ones Rocco Rossi has proposed.
Question: Will the Allen Expressway be turned into a toll road?
Answer: The project is a partnership with the private sector. The recovery of costs will be determined in the study. There could be a role for tolls for the Toronto Tunnel-portion of the Allen Expressway.
Question: What route will the Toronto Tunnel take?
Answer: The Allen Tunnel will begin where the Allen Expressway ends at Eglinton Avenue and continue to the Gardiner Expressway. An engineering report will be required to determine exact specifications.
Question: Will the Toronto Tunnel disrupt residential neighbourhoods?
Answer: No. The Tunnel will not disrupt a single neighbourhood, street or family home. In fact, it will divert traffic directly downtown which currently exits the Allen Expressway into neighbourhoods, thus reducing traffic levels in residential areas.
Photo from Rocco Rossi's Flickr stream
Discussion
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I always thought that Rossi understood economics but between this and selling Toronto Hydro, I was clearly wrong.
Why spend billions (if the small Shepherd line cost 1 billion, this thing, ploughing through a major artery of the city, will cost far, far more; hell, nowadays 1 billion is barely enough to pay-off all of Smitherman's e-Health consultants) on connection two highways when many, many needed subway stops could be constructed? Subways are far more important than one tunnel.
As Jim said, we could invest the insane amount of money that the tunnel would cost into expanding transit, which would hopefully have the same effect.
It's strange though—I can't imagine anyone would choose to vote for Rossi based on this proposal.
I agree the tunnel idea is interesting but would cost way too much. IF somebody can figure out how to build something like the Spadina and Lakeshore expressways in today's time, they'll go down in the Toronto history books.
And yes, I have tried to get in and out of the city outside of rush hour. The only places I regularly get stuck at are the DVP and 401 interchange, the 401 and 403 interchange and the Gardiner and 427 interchange. You know, where two highways meet.
I now officailly hate Rossi more than Ford.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I'll vote for whoever promises to double the size of the CN Tower, so we have the tallest building in the world again.
Boston spent 20+ billion on the Big Dig for LESS tunneling.
Keep ONE track and move it the F over and build a 4 lane road that connects to the F'ING airport. Have only 2 or 3 exits the whole way.
Have it be a toll road. 2 bucks a trip.
THE END.
I agree with everybody on the transit issue. We need more subways, especially a downtown relief line and more routes to the subs, but we also need to keep traffic flowing downtown. There is no single solution, and the mayoral candidate that understands this will get my vote.
Fixed it for you.
Rob Ford for mayor!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a good model to follow.
Please help me choose the least of ALL evils running for Mayor, of my soon to be bankrupt and defunct Toronto.
Why are all the candidates idiots?
Rob Ford is looking better & better every day. And the others are so threatened by him, that all they can do is attack him or come up with absurd counter plans of his crazy ideas.
A better efficient transit IS the way...
Ford is right about losing the unreliable streetcar.
Toronto was on the right track many years ago when we had electric buses on Bay, Davenport & Ossington streets. There were reliable, quite and pulled up to the curb. If there was ever an accident or a broken bus, they pulled their antennae down and all other buses & vehicles could go around them. Very rarely was there ever a complete shut down of a route.
Thursday I drove along St.Clair from Yonge to Runnymede at around 1pm... a typical 10-12min drive...
At Deer Park Cres. a car had gotten stuck on the curb of the dedicated streetcar lane... EAST BOUND TRANSIT DOWN! Several blocks later at Alberta a car had side swiped a streetcar... EAST BOUND TRANSIT DOWN again!! Streetcars backed up. At Dufferin, a wheeltrans bus blocks the ONE lane left for automobiles, to pick up a passenger. Traffic will be stopped for 10-15 minutes.
St.Clair is so dangerous now with frustrated and angry drivers and an extremely narrow lane for moving cars next to parked cars, I can no longer and will no longer, safely ride my bicycle along that street.
When will people realize that the majority will NEVER EVER give up their cars! EVER! City Dwellers and suburbanites alike.
Street cars are ridiculous. They stop 2 lanes of traffic when they pickup & drop people off. People get hit by cars almost daily when cars speed by so they don’t have to stop. When one breaks down, the WHOLE system shuts down. Cyclists are threatened and injured when their tires get stuck in the tracks. In fact, a friend of mine, an internationally acclaimed singer, almost lost her career when her tire got stuck in the track, was thrown to the pavement and broke her jaw in several places!
Most people don’t know that all that sand and dust in the air when a streetcar flies by is the “lubricant” used to quiet the squeals of the grinding wheels on the tracks. Also all that water on the road at Queen/McCaul and King/Charlotte is used for the same purpose.
Last winter, a car was poorly parked on college due to a snow drift. I counted 9 street cars backed up , (for 3 hours!) because 1 person couldn't park.
A couple of years ago there was a small fire on Queen West at Lansdowne. TTC decided to cut power.. not only was the Queen car out of service from Roncesvalles to McCaul, but so was the King car... During morning rush hour.
Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Hamilton, Washington DC, San Francisco, New York, Denver, San Diego, Paris, London, Las Vegas, just to name a few are great cities with great transit that all use either Articulated Electric Trolley Buses or Bio Articulated Buses. Articulated buses are the “accordion” style buses that can move more people, far more efficiently than any streetcar can.
Wake up Toronto. Streetcars were an amazing vehicle when they were pulled by horses to keep them “on track” and up until the early 80’s when Toronto had a manageable infrastructure and much smaller population.
Save the money used to rip up and rebuild all the roads every 2 years to replace the tracks, and put it into the subway system. Just look at the mess Roncesvalles is in right now!
Lets get smarter, more efficient public transportation vehicles on our street, synchronize our traffic lights, better bike lanes (see New York) and all get along like normal human beings.
Typo? That should probably say billion, if it's 100x that price per kilometer.
thats some fine math work there, lou.
I can see it now: "Rossi Raceway"!
A proposal to extend Front Street was made in 1999 as part of the Waterfront Regeneration plan. The plan would extend the road west to Dufferin Street, adding connections to the Gardiner Expressway. The proposed extension is supported by local councillor Joe Pantalone but is opposed by local residents who fear an influx of traffic into the Parkdale area. The glorified "on ramp" would have abruptly ended on Dufferin right at the CNE Arch!
Two local entrepreneurs Fred Dominelli and Dale Martin purchased some land on the extension's route for $280,000 and stand to make a profit of nearly $7 million which is now the cost required to expropriate the land. The entire cost of the extension, once estimated at $120 million, has now grown to (approx. at least) $245 million.
On May 30, 2008, Toronto Mayor David Miller announced that the Front Street extension project would be cancelled as part of a waterfront development plan.
In fact, the subway was designed in anticipation of the road. St clair station was built (expensively)on a "picket fence" of foundations so that a road could slide under it, and there is a park on Spadina between Davenport and Dupont for a reason- - it is a right of way for the highway.
This wait is a huge annoyance and you COULD add another entrance but it still won't change the fact that the club is at capacity. Force more people in and you might have shorter waits but then will just struggle to move around inside. You now have to wait 20 minutes everytime you have to get to the bar and bathroom. Was that worth it?
To conclude this stupid analogy, Toronto's downtown road infrastructure is nearing capacity. If you give people easier access you're removing the bottleneck that stops the core from being massive gridlock. The only real solution to getting more people downtown is to remove cars by giving people transit options that don't suck.
By the way, the neighbourhood is Cedarvale/Humewood and was primarily wealthy Anglo-Saxons at the time. The Protest to stop was also to NOT destroy the ravine and SPADINA from CasaLoma to the Lake.
There are flaws in your judgment sir.
Building a tunnel under the city from Eglinton to Lakeshore is one of the worst ideas I've heard from any mayoral candidate.
Right now NONE of the candidates seem to be right for Toronto.
Better yet... a dump truck filled with gravel scatters all over the road... wouldn't it be fun stuck in the tunnel for hours?
It cost nearly 4 times more than initially thought (yes, that's even when you account for inflation), it didn't actually reduce traffic times between the burbs and the core (all it did was push the bottlenecks where the gridlock happens out of downtown and into the suburbs).
You can't just plop an expressway in the middle of the city - you have to build a network of roads the feed it so all those cars just don't get dumped onto some random road that can't handle them - and that's a cost that Rossi isn't thinking about, and it's a kind of infrastructure where you'd definitely need to knock down buildings in order to widen roads or connect streets.
Although, technically it wouldn't be part of the tunnel itself, so I guess he wouldn't have broken the literal word of his promise, just the spirit.
He claims there would not be a single home demolished. The only way this can happen is if there are absolutely no onramps or exits until it gets to the Gardiner.
Could you imagine this? Traffic flies through a tunnel only to meet an already gridlocked Gardiner. You'd have the same thing there as you currently have at Eglinton and Allen! Huge backups of cars waiting, they'd actually almost have to do a sort of U-Turn via the Gardiner and York/Yonge streets to get back into the core.
If this ever were to happen the only way it would be feasible is TO destroy homes and make it accessible to major streets via portals and onramps, which don't mingle very well with 100 year old home or business foundations.
And that's exactly why it shouldn't and will never happen. The Spadina Expressway was a mistake in the 70's when it was actually designed to be accessible to other streets. In this form it's nothing short of laughable. The Big Dig in Boston was a disaster...and IT HAS EXITS! It's another reason why polls are showing a 40% undecided rate. When it comes to transportation/transit most of the candidates are all wrong.
I'm all for electric buses, but not at the expense of say, a REAL LRT line (as opposed to streetcars) - simply because they have a fraction of the capacity and yes, even reliability of electric buses or regular buses that drive in mixed traffic.
"When will people realize that the majority will NEVER EVER give up their cars! EVER! City Dwellers and suburbanites alike."
Of course people will give up there cars - either out of convenience if we were to develop a first-class transit system, or necessity once oil is back to $200 a barrel once the world pulls itself out of recession.
In the case of the later, I would hope to God we have at least started moving on transit, otherwise life is going to be pretty miserable for most folks who are packed like sardines on buses, streetcars and subways.
"Street cars are ridiculous. They stop 2 lanes of traffic when they pickup & drop people off. People get hit by cars almost daily when cars speed by so they don’t have to stop. When one breaks down, the WHOLE system shuts down. Cyclists are threatened and injured when their tires get stuck in the tracks. In fact, a friend of mine, an internationally acclaimed singer, almost lost her career when her tire got stuck in the track, was thrown to the pavement and broke her jaw in several places!"
Which is why we need proper LRTs, and not half-assed attempts like St. Clair, none of the problems you just described would even be possible on a real LRT.
"Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Hamilton, Washington DC, San Francisco, New York, Denver, San Diego, Paris, London, Las Vegas, just to name a few are great cities with great transit that all use either Articulated Electric Trolley Buses or Bio Articulated Buses."
And nearly all of those cities either have, or are planning to build LRT lines as well.
"Articulated buses are the “accordion” style buses that can move more people, far more efficiently than any streetcar can."
That's debatable, but what's not debatable is that LRTs are much more efficient than articulated buses.
"Wake up Toronto. Streetcars were an amazing vehicle when they were pulled by horses to keep them “on track” and up until the early 80’s when Toronto had a manageable infrastructure and much smaller population."
True, which is why we need to update with LRTs, which are used in small cities in Europe and some of the biggest cities in the world in London, Berlin, Istanbul, Beijing, etc. They can work here too.
"Save the money used to rip up and rebuild all the roads every 2 years to replace the tracks, and put it into the subway system. Just look at the mess Roncesvalles is in right now!"
I'd love subways everywhere, but I'm a realist and I know that's too expensive. I think you should really look into the road budget if you honestly think this would cover even 2% of the construction costs.
And BTW, Ronces was torn up primarily to replace century old water and sewage pipes that were in danger of bursting. They just decided to do everything at once (rebuild the road, electrical, the tracks and the sidewalks) all at once to save money.
"Lets get smarter, more efficient public transportation vehicles on our street, synchronize our traffic lights, better bike lanes (see New York) and all get along like normal human beings."
On this we totally agree.
Also all the other candidate want to sell off a huge amount of service and energy. Privatizing makes the city lose long term revenue and completely destabilize prices. Every candidate but pantalone intend to do it but won't talk about because they know it's not what we want. How anyone could even consider anyone but pantalone is beyond me.
Seems like the usual suspects on urbanToronto are up in arms because those crafty suburbanites are still trying to find ways to drive downtown to 'our' turf. LOL
The city gets much of its money from land taxes....so why exactly does Rossi want to encourage people to move out to the 905? So people can commute, use our infrastructure and not pay a dime for it? Yeah....that'll work well for a city that is struggling to pay for basic services.
Daniel .. Toronto
http://bit.ly/bKGa13
The Windsor - Detroit tunnel has tolls of $4.50 CDN Windsor to Detroit and $4.75 Detroit to Windsor, at a length of 1,573 m. Estimates of Rossi's tunnel is 7 to 8 km, or 5 times the length. Do your own calculations.
Are you kidding? Were you in the same Montreal that I was in this past weekend? Bixis were heavily used, especially around St. Laurent, de Maisonneuv, and in the old town. Friday morning, there was a crush load of them being dropped off at a Victoria Square, and during the evening rush it was like a constant Bixi parade up Avenue du Parc. We were often surrounded by mini Bixi Critical Masses.
Bryantsmitherman Michael Bryant, who made headlines last year when bicycle courier Darcy Allan Sheppard was fatally injured during an altercation with the convertible-driving former attorney general, is hosting a $350-a-ticket fundraiser for mayoral candidate George Smitherman.
Bryant, who was cleared of all charges in May amid evidence Sheppard had a habit of being aggressive and violent with drivers, has been sending out emails inviting Bay Street chums and others to the "cocktails and conversation" session with Smitherman on Sept. 20 at tony The National Club.
Bryant, who resigned as the head of Invest Toronto after he was charged, is now a well-connected Bay St. lawyer.
In the email, he writes:
Friends,
Please join me after work on Monday September 20th at the National Club for a special event with George Smitherman. I haven't hosted a fund-raiser since I left politics in 2009, so please help me make this night a success.
George needs our support. We need George as Mayor of Toronto. This mayoral race is hitting the critical stage where your donation will make a real difference.
The details and fax-back form are attached to this email. I need your help on this one. George and I really hope to see you there.
Have you ever driven the 401, say? No accidents there blocking traffic! Boy, that 401 and that DVP just keep zipping along 24/7 because traffic accidents involving cars never ever cause slowdowns. My friends who commute in from the suburbs on the expressways never complain about delays due to automobile-related incidents, (almost every single day) do they? And of course that kind of thing would never - couldn't possibly - happen in a tunnel either.
My point was that we have an unreliable transit system. And an OverSized LRT on St.Clair.
Slowly but surely cars can get around these accidents... Streetcars & LRT cars on rails, cannot!
False.
The sand is used as traction.
Sooner or later, the city is going to be forced to tackle this problem. There was just a raging debate in the Star a couple weeks ago where it was revealed that the Province spends $2B on roads but collects $2.6 billion in gasoline taxes. It does not matter whether the entitled zealots feel that money should be earmarked for hospitals, Wheeltrans or whatever - the truth is that the TTC is a sinkhole and motorists are cash cows. Ban cars from downtown and watch your tax base really dry up.
Something must be done about the traffic in the mid-core. St. Clair is now permanently f$#ked up, Jarvis is now also (temporarily) screwed and University's lights are hopelessly out of synch. You don't think Rossi and the other candidates aren't getting daily calls from the chattering class in this city who are deeply, deeply worried about our tragic traffic?
My head office is in Markham, near hwy 7 and Yonge. I work down on Queen's Quay. When the 'better way' is to circumnavigate the city, via the Gardiner, 427, 401 and 400 to hwy 7, you gotta know something is amiss. Nearly double the distance, but still faster than chancing the DVP or Mt. Pleasant or Bathurst or Avenue Rd.
A ditch or a tunnel, doesn't matter. The Spadina should never have been killed in the first place.
My partner works at Sheppard/Jane. His union hall is on Wilson, near Keele. Getting from our home near Sherbourne/Wellesley to either of those places is hell, involving a tortuous route along Wilson, Avenue Rd (well, before that construction nightmare began 6 months ago) and then to pick our way along the single lane nightmare that Wellesley has become.
What the detractors of anything autombile related totally ignore is that their favorite cherry-picked cities used to prove their socialist deluded theories are full of 6 lane arterial roads and 1 way streets. Toronto has neither.
The DVP is overcrowded because people that could use a central arterial road can't because none exists.
Most people from Vaughan that I know hate the city as much as you clearly hate them. They will no sooner drive into your precious downtown than you would ever venture north of St. Clair.
I hope Ford wins just so that the downtown idiots get some come uppance. It is about time.
Yeah cuz the G20 this summer + the least government supported transit system in North America is really not enough... damn all you downtown people who pay way more taxes than you get back in services from the province + feds.
Toronto traffic during the rush would remain the same because the backlog of cars would fill in any newly created capacity. It's been proven time again, hell it's one of the reasons the 407's tolls are so high. If the rates were reasonable, it would be gridlocked too.
Nobody has ever offered to explain how Rossi's plan will deal with the fact that the tunnel will lead with no exits to an already gridlocked Gardiner. Traffic would simply back up in the Tunnel just like it does where Allen Road ends now.
Nevermnd the fact that neither the city, Province or Country has an extra $40 billion lying around to even make the thing.
Actually, it's doubtful that the traffic would be that bad downtown if the Spadina had been built.
However, this is not because of the added road capacity. The primary cause would be simply that it would have set back downtown urbanization by decades. The residential population would be a fraction of what it is now and the jobs would have followed the population into the suburban office parks, far moreso than today. Like an American city.
I just came back from a lovely Saturday afternoon circumnavigation of the city: we have friends from Portugal and I thought it might be fun to show them the waterfront, etc. Ah, but the Gardiner is closed this weekend. It took nearly 45 minutes to go from Strachan to South Kingsway. I knew the Lakeshore was out of bounds, but who'd have thunk both Queen and King (I tried both) were virtually stopped? Queensway finally opened up at Islington!
Oh, but that's not all. After a leisurely photography tour of Colonel Samuel Smith Park (foot of Kipling), we got embroiled in horrid traffic on the 401. It was a standstill in both directions. Funny how the closing of one highway can paralyze an entire city. I asked our friends if they've ever seen anything this bad in Porto of Lisboa...nada. So, I opted for Weston Rd and went way up to Sheppard, then down to Wilson from Wilson Heights - yes, these are the extents one must go to get around a city of a piddly 2.5 million.
Toronto is a joke and an Allen tunnel would just be a start. Our previous addiction to 4 lane arterial roads has killed this city, not the Expressways that were meant to compensate.
Problems with the Allen Tunnel:
- Expense: as others have pointed out, it may cost the same as building 2-3 subway lines, when you factor in building on/off ramp tunnels and reconfiguring streets and streetcar lines around them.
- It won't reduce traffic, it will just push the bottleneck down to the Gardner, or wherever else there are exit points. You suggest widening the Gardner to compensate - which will of course cost billions more. To actually make the tunnel reduce traffic with the Gardner expansion, at this rate you'd need to spend close to $20 billion dollars. To compare: that's probably the same price as building all seven proposed Transit City lines, plus the Downtown Relief Subway Line, with money left over.
- Unless there are no on/off ramps planned for the tunnel, you'll have to expropriate buildings, and re-route streets. That means "disrupting communities" and breaking Rossi's promise. Take Bloor & Spadina for example: where do you put the ramps? Do you knock down the JCC? Do you do it further uproad and disrupt a mostly residential neighourhood? And do you build the tunnel above or below the Bloor Subway Line? And how delicate will construction be in order to keep the line running? And what will it do the streets along Spadina to have a highway emptying there? And won't drivers just sit in traffic once they exit the tunnel?
Perhaps I'm an ignorant socialist who reads too much on transit and urban planning - but I don't recall any city, especially in North America, that solved it's congestion issues beyond a year or two by constructing downtown expressways.