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Morning Brew: TTC to spend $700M on streetcar works, Adam Vaughan says new vehicles are too big, rumblings over Ford's Kachkar call, and Ryerson U says sorry

Posted by Chris Bateman / March 26, 2013

toronto mudThe TTC says it will cost $700 million to upgrade its surface stops for the accessible features of its new streetcars. The new vehicles deploy ramps when stopped to help wheelchair users board and require extra platform height. Some of the cash is also being spent on changes to the overhead wiring and the installation of on-street ticket machines.

Meanwhile, Adam Vaughan says the new high-capacity vehicles are too big for downtown routes like Queen, King, College, and Bathurst and he'd like the TTC to hang on to its old vehicles. Does that make any sense at all?

Rob Ford is continuing to draw criticism over comments he made to a Newstalk 1010 show about the Richard Kachkar trial. The mayor told listeners he couldn't understand why the court was discussing Kachkar's mental state. "One of our finest got killed. Left behind a wife and a little son. And we're trying to find an excuse why this guy stole ... a snow plow and killed a police officer," he said. The jury has already been instructed to avoid the media and is now in deliberations.

The Ryerson engineering students in the spotlight over a controversial hazing ritual have apologized. A YouTube video showed prospective frosh week leaders being made to crawl in their underwear through a slushy puddle. The event was apparently voluntary but staff at the university felt it left a bad impression of the university.

Two giant pandas mailed to the Toronto Zoo from China arrived in the country safely under the gaze of hundreds of TV cameras and press yesterday. PM Stephen Harper officially signed the FedEx delivery document for the pair, named Er Shun and Da Mao, as the animals were taken in to quarantine. The pair will go on public display Saturday, May 18.

Two of the TTC's top transit enforcement staff have left their jobs, according to the Toronto Star. Fergie Reynolds and staff sergeant Al Findlay left in the wake of the news eight enforcement staff were being prosecuted for issuing fake tickets, though the pair were not involved in that crime.

IN BRIEF:

Chris Bateman is a staff writer at blogTO. Follow him on Twitter at @chrisbateman.

Image: "Muddy Park" by jer1961/blogTO Flickr pool.

Discussion

63 Comments

Shane / March 26, 2013 at 08:03 am
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If the Toronto Star wants to be a credible news source they should use as much ink investing the extra costs and shortcomings of the streetcars as they did the firing of former TTC chief Gary Webster.
DL / March 26, 2013 at 08:12 am
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Vaughan is right. These streetcars are going to stuff these already jammed routes to a complete standstill.
DL replying to a comment from Shane / March 26, 2013 at 08:13 am
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There's always another cost with the TTC. ALWAYS. These people treat our tax dollars like their own piggy bank and then wonder why people don't want to give them more to improve transit. What do they expect when they abuse our trust to the point of disgust?
RobK / March 26, 2013 at 08:14 am
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What I never did understand is why the TTC wouldn't keep the old streetcars in service anyways? That would make some sense, even if they are only used in rush-hour to move people across the core. I can't imagine it would be that costly to install Presto readers on the old streetcars.
Dan Mc replying to a comment from RobK / March 26, 2013 at 08:21 am
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No more costly than the five gazillion dollars that has already been spent on Presto so far... which hasn't even begun to be implemented across the TTC yet.
steve replying to a comment from vampchick21 / March 26, 2013 at 08:32 am
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Thanks for my morning LOL

Jay replying to a comment from vampchick21 / March 26, 2013 at 08:33 am
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Vaughan as mayor would be a disaster. Everything and anything would be banned, especially if it involved an ounce of fun. Vaughan has to be one of the most petulant and loathing human being I have ever met and witnessed. Be careful what you wish for.
Jay replying to a comment from vampchick21 / March 26, 2013 at 08:35 am
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It is time to retire steetcars into the same realm as the horse and buggy. They take up too much space and cost way too much for the returns that they provide. There is a reason that most cities did away with them or put them on routings away from streets such as through parks, squares and allys.

Another Toronto colossal screw up.
chemical_echo / March 26, 2013 at 08:36 am
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I wish people would stop calling the Ryerson event hazing.
Those adults (not kids as the party leaders wish to keep calling them) consented to the voluntary act and were not forced to do anything.
Jerry / March 26, 2013 at 08:38 am
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Hey Adam Vaughan, so what you're saying is you didn't pay any attention to the size of the new streetcars until now? You need to stfu.
Dale / March 26, 2013 at 08:43 am
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"The TTC says it will cost $700 million to upgrade its surface stops for the accessible features of its new streetcars."

I don't see what the big deal is. The TTC knew the cost was coming and has already factored it in. It's not like this is a surprise.

As for Vaughan, "He suggested that the low-floor models, which are 30% longer than the articulated streetcars, may not work on King, Queen, Dundas, College and Bathurst streets and one way to deal with it would be to continue to run the older streetcars."

Is he serious? That would defeat the whole purpose of buying new streetcars and trying to increase the capacity of these lines. Does he imagine the old cars chugging along for ever with people hanging out the windows? Geez. After all the wailing and panic is done the new cars will be fine and we can start nay-saying the next transit improvement.
glenn storey replying to a comment from Jay / March 26, 2013 at 08:46 am
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really? what do you think those reasons are?
glenn storey replying to a comment from Jay / March 26, 2013 at 08:46 am
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really? what do you think those reasons are?
Robert replying to a comment from glenn storey / March 26, 2013 at 09:01 am
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Its another pro car stance and anti transit rant. People like him think that the ttc should be shut down thinking it will allow them to drive there cars freely without congestion.
OhRight replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 09:01 am
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Right, lets get rid of the streetcars so we have an extra few hundred cars on the road at any given point - That's a really BRILLIANT idea. I always knew the solution was so simple.

/facepalm
OhRight replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 09:04 am
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Maybe one day, when the subway isn't an archaic piece of shit straight out of the 1960's, we can get rid of the streetcars. Until then, they aren't going anywhere. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that when the day comes that we actually CAN get rid of them, they will still be here on some routes for historical reasons.
Dale replying to a comment from OhRight / March 26, 2013 at 09:05 am
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If only it were just the cars. But no, we'd have the main downtown routes cluttered up with diesel burning buses zipping back and forth between the centre of the street and the curb. Traffic would still be clogged and it would kill the street life and property values of those routes.
iSkyscraper / March 26, 2013 at 09:09 am
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I'm really tired of people with no sense talking about major engineering works that are far beyond their understanding. So excuse my swearing.

For decades no one talked about streetcars. They were just there. Didn't operate as well as they should have, but at least we had them when every other city didn't.

Then Rob Ford single-handedly politicized streetcars, somehow turning them into a left-wing agenda. (Yeah, like cost-efficient transit that results in real estate investment is a liberal principle. Oklahoma City is building streetcars. Three Texas cities have new surface LRT and streetcars. Give me a fucking break.)

At the same time, any city on the continent that did not look like Toronto (i.e. successful, vibrant downtown) suddenly realized that streetcars and LRT (the two are different) were part of that and started building new systems.

So now we have the ridiculous situation of half the city, who should know better, protesting the very thing that made Toronto great, while actual liberals like Vaughan, are being obstructionist in terms of making them run the way they are supposed to - bigger, fewer stops, on-street payment, etc. Jesus H. Christ, what a mess.

Look, morons, get it straight:

- the new streetcars are great. They are an upgrade with a lot of potential. This upgrade requires investment to unlock this potential

- LRT in the suburbs to feed the trunk subway lines are great. Stop trying to undo it, get it done.

- a new trunk subway line to the core would be great. Go talk about finding money for that and leave streetcars and LRT the fuck alone.

Ugh.
JohnnyS replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 09:12 am
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Lol if only transportation planning was as easy as looking at something and making a judgement. You do know countless studies were done and many simulations done to see the effect these LRT cars would make on Toronto streets (and these simulations include the impact of their size on traffic).

And then some politician comes along and says they're too big. He should stick to focusing on subjects he understands, or pick up a book on traffic flow theory.
Jeff replying to a comment from chemical_echo / March 26, 2013 at 09:13 am
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Agreed!
Jonah / March 26, 2013 at 09:16 am
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Chris - your "$700 million" summary is misleading. The vast majority of that money ($436 million) is going towards building the Leslie Barns.
Jeff / March 26, 2013 at 09:16 am
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It's not $700M to upgrade the surface stops. It's $58M to upgrade the stops. The other funds are going towards building a new yard, upgrading overhead wiring, and upgrading existing yards and mechanical shops.
Alex / March 26, 2013 at 09:43 am
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Wow, way to make yourself look like a complete idiot Adam Vaughan. Obviously just by looking at them you must know more than all the engineers and planners who studied the street, designed, and built the streetcars. Geez, the right has Ford and the left has Vaughan. Can we get rid of both of them next election?

Can everyone stop harping on the Ryerson engineering students? This IS NOT hazing. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. It was completely voluntary, and people who didn't do it were still able to be Frosh leaders. The ones that did do it did it out of fun, not peer pressure. What's next? Is dying ourselves purple hazing? Is marching and chanting hazing? I guess any sort of fun at all is hazing and must be banned to protect people from themselves. A bunch of politicians know nothing about this and should just stay out of it. Go back to stealing our money through your incompetence and corruption. Obviously political leaders that force their party members to go against their principles and vote along party lines on every issue know what's right and wrong when it comes to peer pressure.
JAAAAAAAT / March 26, 2013 at 09:48 am
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streetcars are too long. Vaughn for mayor! lets live in Vaughn!
GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 09:51 am
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Streetcars/LRT on dedicated rights of way I get. But can somebody please explain the benefit of streetcars vs. buses on ‘regular’ surface routes. Buses are cheaper, less expensive to operate (when all costs considered), can actually move around a car parked on a snowbank blocking streetcar tracks (not that that ever happens), don’t require specialized training and specialized maintenance, don’t require $480m custom barns, are not custom made at extortionate cost just for the TTC, are in use all over the world, don’t get stuck on the slightest uphill in snow, etc.

For the first time ever I agree with Vaughan. But I would also ask, where was he when the TTC decided to run what are essentially trains down already crowded streets.
Aaron / March 26, 2013 at 09:55 am
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Vaughan is dead wrong on this issue. Routes like King and Queen desperately need the additional capacity. They're so crowded they frequently leave people behind at the stops during rush hour. If there's a place that the new streetcars absolutely need to go it's on King and Queen.
jer / March 26, 2013 at 10:13 am
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I am shocked to agree with Adam Vaughn... I can't imagine how well these street cars will be able to handle the streets. Already street cars (along with cars/buses/etc) are blocking intersections. I can't imagine what will happen with longer street cars. I hope that street drivers will get used to the longer length quickly.

GRAARG replying to a comment from Aaron / March 26, 2013 at 10:22 am
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Vaughan's not arguing capacity. Think it would be hard to find anyone who argued that there is over capacity. The argument is about what will happen when you essentially send trains down a crowded street without a right of way. Add in the removal of stops and the decreased frequency of streetcars when the mega-streetcars arrive and, well, I think the outcome is predictable - when it works it will work great but when it doesn't it will be a fiasco of epic proportions... and it will not work great often....
Alex replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 10:25 am
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Streetcars carry more people. You'd need at least 2 buses, more likely 3 though, all running together down a street to make up for a streetcar. Since people tend to get in the first bus only, and the buses can easily get separated by traffic, they simply can't carry as many people. I don't have a link, but you can google the throughput of the various modes of transportation to get the actual numbers comparison of buses, streetcars, LRTs, and subways.
GRAARG replying to a comment from Alex / March 26, 2013 at 10:46 am
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And subways carry yet more people. I got that part.

The part I don’t understand is the massive cost of cramming what are essentially trains down crowded streets. Like Adam Vaughan said (can’t believe I am writing that), I have serious reservations about the ability to actually make these come remotely close to their projections in capacity and cost on the non-right of way routes. Which would mean it would not only be far less expensive but far more efficient to run buses where streetcars don’t have rights of way.

LRT great.
DL replying to a comment from OhRight / March 26, 2013 at 11:03 am
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Do you really believe these new boats on our downtown roads are going to eliminate any cars? This isn't new transit, this isn't an upgrade. It's just updating old vehicles with unrealistic new ones. This is bad for everybody, not just drivers.
JohnnyS replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 11:04 am
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Care to tell me the study you used to back up your reservations? So many people who are vocal critics of transit planning in Toronto just imagine scenarios in their heads and think they know best. Transportation engineers and planners have very accurate simulation models of Toronto streets and can accurately model the effect these LRTs have on traffic, and whether or not they improve overall transit time for a person. There's so many specifics that are accounted for, and accurately too.

The moment politicians who have no understanding of the field raise their voices and try to take charge of an operation they know nothing about (like Rob Ford) is the moment everything goes down the drain.
DL replying to a comment from JohnnyS / March 26, 2013 at 11:05 am
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I do a lot of contract work for the TTC. The fact that they built an LRT line only a few years ago that now needs god-only-knows how much money in upgrades just to accomodate a new vehicle is pretty standard operating procedure for them, and goes to show that the last thing they did was a proper study for the impact such a vehicle will have on the system, when it should always be the FIRST thing done.
Chris on Bay St / March 26, 2013 at 11:08 am
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For once I agree with my councillor Vaughan that the new vehicles are mostly a mistake for downtown Toronto. Thanks for stepping forward with your concerns four years too late, Vaughan. You may leave now. I hope you and your buddies Miller and Giambrone will be proud of the transit legacy you leave behind.
JohnnyS replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 11:12 am
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This has everything to do with when construction of the current platforms happened and when the design of the new LRT was chosen. If the design of the new LRT was chosen after construction had already begun on the current platforms, then there was nothing to be done, and it was just bad timing. If they had already decided on the LRT design before construction occured, then I agree, it is full incompetence on the TTC. However, this incompetence has more to do with bad project management rather than bad engineering. Two different responsibilities.
bjws / March 26, 2013 at 11:20 am
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You know what doesn't jam up our streets? Subways. But there are too many pussies out there that would rather throw $100M at this and $700M at that, instead of just manning up and spending the couple billion it would cost to actually improve the city. I bet by the time this project is all said and done the cost will be damn close to what a new subway route would have cost to build.
Jacob / March 26, 2013 at 11:39 am
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The new streetcars appear to be made of 5 segments. Can't they just ask for 3 or 4 segment streetcars for downtown routes? I don't imagine it would be that hard.
iSkyscraper replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 12:13 pm
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Buses vs light rail is an age old debate (see below). Some of it is numbers, some of it is hard to capture numerically (like quality of ride, or what steel rails in the street means to real estate developers). Easiest way to put it is that any sort of rail is first-class, and any sort of bus is flying economy. There is a spectrum, and it can get blurry depending on how you operate, but ridership and development dollars follow rail and not buses. The US spent 50 years destroying their cities to figure that out and are now rebuilding their rail systems. Does Toronto really need to go on a similar learning curve?


There are research papers out there, just google them. here is one:
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/lyndon-henry/research-study-new-lrt-projects-beat-brt-on-capital-cost-ridership-measures.html
GRAARG replying to a comment from JohnnyS / March 26, 2013 at 12:20 pm
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Johnny S – I base that conclusion being a Metropass holder and using my eyes. Streetcars cost a lot more than buses. The tracks that they run on cost more than the (free to the ttc) road. I’m a fan of LRT and mega streetcars where they have rights of way. I seriously question the wisdom and economics of trying to put mega-streetcars down King, Queen, etc. I look onto King near Yonge 5 days a week and, as anyone who rides that route will tell you, a bus would fly past the streetcar 9 times out 10. So, I understand it would take 2 busses to equal 1 streetcar, but given busses costa ton less, require no rails, can move around broken down cars, etc, I really question the wisdom of mega-streetcars without rights of way.
GRAARG replying to a comment from iSkyscraper / March 26, 2013 at 12:27 pm
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iSkyscraper – my issue is not with rail but with rail that is not on a right of way and not because I am a car luvin rob fordian suburbinite (I have a metropass and ride the subway every day). From what I see every day on King and Queen the benefits of streetcars without rights of way primarily exist in textbooks and not in reality.
DL replying to a comment from JohnnyS / March 26, 2013 at 12:37 pm
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I agree completely, you can't blame engineering for this at all. Engineers don't purchase rolling stock and they don't maintain vehicles. I place every undue nickle spent by the TTC on it's project management personnel 100%.
JohnnyS replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 12:37 pm
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The issue of streetcars vs buses is a different issue though. The issue here is current-sized streetcars vs new large LRTs. I agree streetcars that aren't segregated have major headway issues, but I think compared to what we have now, the new LRTs would be better. I'd assume they would come less often (so let's say every 5-7 minutes rather than 1-3 minutes in peak hours). This would do well to allow traffic to flow more freely in major intersections like Yonge & XYZ as the queue for cars to allow streetcar passengers to get on and off will be less frequent. Increased capacity allows everyone to get on who has been waiting for 5 minutes (which there will be a lot of people in rush hour) rather than have 2 streetcars to accomodate them.

These are just off the top of my head. Streetcars vs LRTs is the issue being discussed. Buses vs streetcars is a totally different beast (but I agree with you buses have a lot of validity in areas where tracks aren't segregated).
GRAARG replying to a comment from JohnnyS / March 26, 2013 at 01:08 pm
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The less often and less stops aspect is interesting. If that holds true I actually think we might have a winner – less streetcars impeding cars allows the cars to move which means less cars impeding streetcars sorta thing – a virtuous circle if it actually happens.

But it will require a few things for it to work out – like everybody using all doors and having an electronic pay system for all passengers so the loading/unloading is pronto. Otherwise you end up in an Airbus A380 sort of thing – cool plane, less expensive per passenger mile to operate due to the huge numbers of people onboard, but a gong show to load and unload. Running the new mega-streetcars without rights of way through the most congested parts of the city seems to be like flying a A380 into Lincoln, Nebraska and then being surprised it takes a whole day to load/unload the plane.

Having bigger rolling stock on rights of ways makes a ton of sense. I suspect that having bigger rolling stock not on rights of ways will just lead to bigger problems without enough benefits to offset the added cost.
DL is a shill replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 02:00 pm
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bullshit you did contract work for the TTC. doesn't work that way
lessismore replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 02:06 pm
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"The less often and less stops aspect is interesting. If that holds true I actually think we might have a winner"

This is key to the whole argument, and this information has been out there the whole time. The new streetcars are expected to arrive less frequently, and some stops are expected to go away. This *should* clear up more space on the roads for the cars.

Since people keep entering these arguments without understanding the facts, they come away thinking: "OMG these long streetcars back-to-back-to-back will leave no place for my car!!"

These streetcars shouldn't be "clogging up the streets".

I wish more people would understand the facts before participating in a debate, and I applaud you for conceding a bit and keeping the debate going with your other points.

It's definitely going to be a clusterfuck when they finally hit the streets, and i'm sure there will be months of complaining because people just won't know what they are doing when Presto and the whole process confuses them. I'm sure within 3 days people will be saying it's a failure, but it will take weeks if not months before things start to run smoothly.
tommy / March 26, 2013 at 02:13 pm
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Look at all the self-appointed TTC experts. You people need to calm down and stop making such wild assumptions. The info you seek is freely available on the web. Do some research before spouting off on topics you have absolutely no knowledge of.

This includes you, Vaughan. Bigger capacity on the new streetcars is only half the reason, the old streetcars are falling apart and wont last much longer. Was finding this doc so goddamn hard: http://stevemunro.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/StreetcarFleetPlan201210.pdf
Alex replying to a comment from lessismore / March 26, 2013 at 03:13 pm
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Oh man, when all the TTC riders have to move to Presto it is going to be crazy. Generally it seems fine and much faster than change, but it's the backend stuff that is annoying. How they let you go overbalance for one ride, but require that you phone them to get your card unlocked after you go overbalance, instead of just letting you pay to put it back to $0 or above. Registration is weird too. It says fill out registration info online and then within 24 hrs take a regular trip, or wait a certain number of days, and your registration will be complete. Well, I did that and a few weeks later it said my registration had failed and to call customer service. I forgot about it for a few days, then went back online to check the customer service number and my registration had magically resolved itself. Very weird system. Plus the transaction history/current balance online is a few days old, which seems really odd. I don't understand why the transaction history isn't real time, it's deducting money from your account right away, it isn't contacting any third party or anything.

Presto has a lot of positives and a lot of negatives, and if they don't get their crap sorted out by the time the TTC boards with them then it is going to be crazy.
Wasted like Rob Ford / March 26, 2013 at 03:34 pm
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It's not like the TTC has never run 100 foot long trains down Queen Street before!

Oh wait...
lol replying to a comment from DL / March 26, 2013 at 03:36 pm
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You do contract work for the TTC? So that's why you're posting here the whole day. You wouldn't happen to be one of their special constables would you?
GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 04:15 pm
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I also find it interesting that Vaughan is speaking up and speaking up now. Reminds me of something Keith Boag said last night on the National – good politicians have a habit of changing their minds and being on the right side of the issue at just the right moment. Think Vaughan would have said anything if he thought this was going to be a screaming success? Ford poo pooing them is no surprise (“respect the car!”) but it is very telling than Vaughan is suddenly anti mega-streetcar on the downtown routes.
What's maroon and wobbly surfs all day? replying to a comment from lol / March 26, 2013 at 05:57 pm
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DL, the Drunk TTC Supervisor!
iSkyscraper replying to a comment from GRAARG / March 26, 2013 at 06:14 pm
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Ah, yes, a few years ago that was the case - new LRT on ROW was easy to find but new streetcar lines not so much. But then that changed when people started building new STREETCAR systems, in mixed traffic. Here are a few cities - you can google them for images and more info:

Washington DC Streetcar (under construction)
Atlanta (under construction)
Los Angeles Streetcar (under construction)
Seattle Streetcar (not their LRT)
Portland Streetcar (not their LRT)
Philadelphia (Route 15)
Miwaukee, Oklahoma City, Cincinnati (smaller cities u/c, but hey, still counts)

These are mixed-traffic, streetcar systems. They are new versions of old streetcar lines that were replaced by buses but found to be lacking for the reasons I mentioned above. Rails win out over wheels for riders and development.

Plus, if you look really closely, there are quite a few LRT systems designed to move a lot of people long distances that, like the Queen car coming off Queensway, change over to mixed-traffic as they get into the dense parts of the city. This may be one of the best examples of a huge LRT like vehicle running like a streetcar in places - it's Jersey City, on a line that transfers into the subway to Manhattan:

http://cityphile.com/photo/wp-content/uploads/yapb_cache/hudson_bergen_light_rail_train_traveling_west_on_essex_street_6390.2oizlrwyd5k4co0888g4osck0.c4xtg9uu3r404wggo4ss0ss8s.th.jpeg


Yes, mixed traffic is not ideal. But you do it when you have to due to geometry (narrow streets) or cost (exclusive ROW is expensive to build). For downtown Toronto, it's ok and can be improved with off-vehicle payment and elimination of stops. For Transit City in the suburbs, it's a no-no.



Speaking of, has anyone clarified that all major stops will have off-vehicle payment? I can't imagine someone using the onboard payment machine in sardine-can conditions.
tommy / March 26, 2013 at 07:47 pm
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Yes, busy stops will have off-vehicle payment boxes at the side of the road. It's been mentioned in most Presto/TTC releases.

@Alex - the Presto fare is stored on the card itself. Every time you tap it, it doesn't ping back to a home server. It updates the card value, and the tap machine, and only once or twice a day do the machines ping the server to compare/update your account. It has to do this, because the bandwidth required for every tap would be overwhelming and too expensive. Don't get any funny ideas though. Your account is mirrored to EVERY Presto box in the system, and if your balance doesn't add up, they know some fishy business is going on. This is also how your card gets reloaded. You pay online (or via machine), the balance takes a day to broadcast to every Presto machine, then the next time you tap in, the machine loads the new balance on your card.

I still think designing the Presto card without a hole in it is a MAJOR mistake. The number of people who hole-punch their metropasses is HUGE (usually challenged, or the elderly), and they will be pretty angry after they punch through their Presto card RFID antenna, after not reading the instructions NOT TO PUNCH THE CARD.
Scott / March 27, 2013 at 05:58 am
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I always get a good kick reading people who insist we keep the old streetcars. Their 30 years old; much like a car they have a limited lifespan in which they will last and economically wise to operate. The TTC has an obligation as a public transit agency at the very least to have a fully accessible system. These streetcars are a long time coming and will be a welcome sight.
jeff g / March 27, 2013 at 08:35 pm
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here goes iskyscraper again spreading the same misinformation about streetcars as usual. Their arguments just don't hold up to any close or in depth analysis! Typical for these sort of fanatics who defy reason and rational thought really.
jeff g replying to a comment from there goes jeff g again, pulling his taffy / March 27, 2013 at 09:04 pm
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Woah talk about trying to extrapolate unrelated information from a small sample. Just as long as it reinforces your world view though, huh?
jeff g: unimaginative shill or CONdrone hack--YOU decide! replying to a comment from jeff g / March 27, 2013 at 09:37 pm
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How that mayoral victory coming along? Everything you dreamed of? Your man making you proud...your neighbourhood directly improved as a result of his being sworn in?

Tell me more about the mud on your shoes, j-man.
lost all hope over here in east york replying to a comment from jeff g / March 27, 2013 at 09:42 pm
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I'm sick of this...no wonder women are tuning out in droves. I can't think of a single reason to vote for another male in my lifetime.

As for these new streetcars, I think they're lovely. I'm happy Miller got them through before he left office to spend time with family. I hope they don't have any big hiccups, and that we can get lines criss-crossing the city asap.
And of course...... replying to a comment from lost all hope over here in east york / March 27, 2013 at 11:07 pm
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Your attitude gives me a good reason not to ever vote for a female, ever.
Sexist pig is too kind replying to a comment from And of course...... / March 28, 2013 at 08:22 pm
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Enjoy watching the world pass you by, apeman.
And of course...... replying to a comment from Sexist pig is too kind / March 29, 2013 at 12:18 am
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I will, BITCH.
Sexist pig is too kind replying to a comment from And of course...... / March 30, 2013 at 11:04 am
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Jeez, language! And you kiss your mother with that mouth??

And I think I know the kind too. Probably slow ones right? Soft. Lingering. Maybe with the faintest bit of tongue, right?

(oh, you're a BAD little Easter boy!)
Simon Tarses / March 31, 2013 at 11:38 am
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Myself, I wish that streetcars and light rail could be built all over Toronto, and the buses could be eliminated completely (in areas where buses are running and the space to run streetcars doesn't exist, we run them underground). But the city wasn't designed like that, so it will never happen.

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