Starbucks to Ruin Kensington Market?
The National Post is reporting that Starbucks is in talks to move into Kensington Market. The location? The shuttered J&J Fruit Market at the corner of Nassau and Augusta Ave.
If the deal is sealed Starbucks would be hawking what some consider overpriced lattes and burnt coffee just steps from I Deal Coffee and some of Toronto's other top cafes.
Here's hoping that Councillor Adam Vaughan does the right thing and makes things difficult to prevent this from happening. If all else fails though, let's home the community responds the same way they did when Second Cup tried to move in years ago. The location was met with lacklustre sales and closed not more than six months later.
Comments (64)
Now I have nothing against Starbucks, but for me personally, I like visiting Kensington Market to get away from the 'big names' that are out there. I'm pretty sure there are people that feel the same way, if not more strongly.
About time! Ideal Coffee is a corporation disguised as an indie hippy joint! Ideal Coffee is found in more cafes downtown than there are SBUX locations south of College St!
Of course, I'm certain the landlord is behind this move...$$$:)
let them move in and see what horrible reception they get. For the same reason a second hand used clothing store wouldn't work in the PATH or Financial District.
I think we overreact sometimes to the fear of gentrification. Kensington is very resilient and has a large community backing.
If Kensington is in such shambles that it can be ruined by one franchise moving in, then why should anyone care to begin with?
It has a great feeling to it. Walking up the street with the shops all playing their own eclectic music makes it feel like you're in another city, or country even. I hardly think having a coffee shop is going to change that.
Now, I 'll have to be the bad guy. I would not like to see Starbucks at Kens. Market for aesthetic reasons. BUT their espresso is much better than that at the cool, cute coffee shop at the corner of Augusta and Kensington (I think). And keep in mind: the owners are Italian.
Bottom line: Kens. Market should keep its character, but it should not be like a fake movie setting, just because "it looks good".
In Seoul the historic market district required Starbucks to change its appearance (including transliterating its store sign into Hangul) before it moved in. If it was Starbucks with a crappy hand painted sign and tagged walls, would it be accepted in Kensington?
augusta and kensington don't meet, and that "cool, cute coffee shop" might actually be owned by portuguese brothers...regardless, you don't bring wood to the forest, as the old polish saying goes, and with a good two dozen espresso machines in the neighbourhood, who needs a starbucks?!
agreed that the community is resilient and will not be fazed in the long term. i just don't want there to be another fire in the market...hope the neighbours have insurance. probably graffiti and art-crime protest is the worst they'll get before hitting the road like nike did.
Eh. I'd hate on Starbucks, but look at what an improvement it made to the corner of Queen and Bathurst.
If Kensington really doesn't want it the residents will vote with their wallets, just like they did with the food market that preceded it.
Too many people seem to hate starbucks because it's the cool thing to do. To echo some above sentiments, I don't see what the big concern is. If Kensington Market has the strong community that we all think it does, then Starbucks will learn it's lesson and move on. If not, then there are obviously other things that need to be addressed.
I think a Starbucks will be very out of place in the market, not to mention completely unnecessary.
I for one will always choose to support a local business over a chain when the option is available. And I'd like to believe there are enough likeminded people to make it difficult for Starbucks to succeed in the market. That being said, it would be best if it is stopped before it even starts renovations, otherwise a lot of resources may be wasted.
To the poster who put down I Deal Coffee, there are only 3 locations in Toronto, each with it's own unique charm and all with great coffee - barely a corporation.
Does anyone know what Adam Vaughan's thoughts are on this?
Ry-Tron: Exactly. The solution to this non-problem is the same as Wal-Mart or McDonald's or anything else.. don't shop there.
"Second Cup tried to move in years ago. The location was met with lacklustre sales and closed not more than six months later."
Well, there's a Second cup at College and Augusta that has been there for years and years.
If Starbucks moves in and it does well, then the people who shriek about gentrification are just a bunch of hypocrites. If it does poorly, then woopdee doo. Kensington is already a bit of a movie set. There are so many shops that sell nothing yet somehow stay open. At night, most of Augusta is a shuttered deadzone.
Speaking of supposedly inappropriate additions to the market, how about that horrible reno with all those little market booths in it? RIdiculous double sliding doors that have wasted AC all summer long with laughable art and crafts inside?
"let them move in and see what horrible reception they get. For the same reason a second hand used clothing store wouldn't work in the PATH or Financial District."
Good luck with that. Starbucks is notorious for allowing its stores to lose money in order to promote their brand. When they put up two stores across the street from one another, they don't make much more money than if they just had the one. The profits tend to be split, 50-50 (or more like %55-%55 of what they would have made alone). Its essentially a form of advertising for them.
You can put up a billboard with the Starbucks name on or, or spend a little extra and put up a billboard that also makes its product available to people.
Coffee is cheap. Now that Starbucks has automated machines, their labour is cheap too. It is very, very easy for them to break even and they are QUITE comfortable not making big bucks as long as they cover their costs.
I don't really care that much about S-bucks moving in. Without support, it won't last long. But, please don't try to tell me they make good espresso. Those push-button machines their "baristas" use make a brew that's got no flavour and is barely even warm - and when served in a paper cup the only aroma you get is from the paper.
Starbuck's makes notoriously bad coffee. They thrive on their ubiquity; people go because it's what they know. It's honestly the McDonald's of coffee.
As contradictory as it sounds, the throngs who come to the market on the weekend to experience something a bit different will gladly stop in to a Starbuck's because it's familiar. It won't matter how slow their sales are during the week.
No art protests will change this.
How do automatic doors waste more AC then regular doors?They open much wider, they open when people aren't entering/exiting, and they are open for longer than necessary.
I don't think that they necessarily are less efficient, but I could see how they would be.
"Too many people seem to hate starbucks because it's the cool thing to do"
^^ and too many like it for the same reason, just look at the clientelle.
If you want to see wasted AC.. visit the Niagara Falls strip. A whole tribe could survive in a 3rd world country on the amount of energy each establishment wastes there !
Ben, sliding doors tend to actually lose less energy than traditional doors (when the sensors aren't accidentally being tripped). Traditional doors, when opened create suction, pulling air out of the room. Even with the power required to run the door and accidental openings, I would imagine their sliding doors are much better for energy consumption than a single set of regular ones.
Gah, stupid Starbucks.
Well if the residents of the area really don't want them there they can show them by not giving them their money! Than maybe they will fail and have to move out...I hope.
Meh... Again, big deal... I don't buy coffee at any of the places in Kensington Market it's usually more expensive than Starbucks and you get less.
I wonder, though, if having Starbucks in the neighbourhood will raise the general expectation of cleanliness for other places (really tired of seeing shops with bad records there).
If any business moves in selling overpriced burnt coffee next to some of the best coffee shops in Toronto, this shouldn't even be an issue of ruin for kensington
I don't think they'll do so badly (financially) either. Like the poster above said, it will be a familiar refuge for tourists. Like a McDonald's in the third world.
Are there any special zoning bylaws for Kensington? Rek's reference to the Seoul market requiring conformity to a set of standards is interesting. But yeah, what would Kensington's be?
It's about time! Screw you Kensington hippies! Maybe Starbucks will finally clean up that shit-hole of a neighborhood.
You raise a very interesting argument, joeyjojo, but I think that your suggestion is misplaced.
The issue isn't whether Starbuck's will clean up Kensington. Surely they would clean up at least one store's worth. The problem is that Starbuck's is too standardized. If one opens in Kensington, which is arguably one of Toronto's most unique neighbourhoods, then some of that uniqueness will be lost.
I can't imagine it. It's not their style. I could however see them opening a location at Augusta at College, or on Spadina, at Baldwin (in burned out remains of Edo where there is no rebuilding going on). That's the type of location they favor, with lots of walk-by traffic, on a corner. That location in the market wouldn't make enough money. Os, the eldest brother who runs the coffee shop at Augusta/Baldwin (which I think has the best and most consistent latt? this side of Yonge (but Mercury has the best in the city in my opinion), doesn't stay open on Sundays because the people who visit the market on Sunday's are 'all sightseers and don't buy anything'. If his little shop, with so little overhead, can't find it worthwhile to stay open on a weekend day, Starbucks isn't going to make enough to pay for the renovations, staff and equipment.
People are always criticizing what is going on in the market, but how many of you regularly go there, or live there? I live there and like how the market is getting 'cleaned up' -- not 'gentrified'. It's nice to be able to walk through the market after dark and not feel like you're going to get the shit kicked out of you for what little change you have in your pockets. When I first moved into the market, two and a half years ago, I remember seeing a lot of drugs changing hands. The windows at Edo, always provided a good show. Less tagging and garbage in garbage bins and not blowing around the street, is not going to take away from the character. As it is now, we have a park that few will even step foot in. I was disgusted at how dirty the playground was, when I took a trip with a friend and her two year old. The sand area, under the swings, might have been mistaken for the McDonald's parking lot at Dundas and Bathurst.
I wouldn't mind if a Starbucks opened 'cause maybe there'd be someplace clean to go to after 6, that would be open, those nights I want to have a coffee and read or work on my laptop. I'm a night-owl and find it frustrating that the market shuts down at 6pm and there's nothing to do unless you want to drink. And does anyone ever think about the people that Starbucks employs? There's many students in the area who could do worse than work at a Starbucks and need to pay for their over-priced tuition.
If it happens, I foresee another Presto backlash:
http://www.blogto.com/city/2007/02/neighbourhood_watch_kensington_market_1_of_2/
If Starbucks opens it doesn't matter if Kensington residents completely boycott it, they will live off the revenue from visitors and tourists and people coming in from China Town and nearby just to get Starbucks coffee. Then you'll get a McDonalds or something, which will survive on similar conditions.
Starbucks and McDonald's aren't in the same category as Nike Presto.
I do not like visiting another city in Canada, or in the United States, and finding the very same stores in a shopping district, malls, or shopping centre (spelled "center" for the Americans).
I think it is the fault of the landlords who charge so high a rent that only the chain stores or franchisee can afford to take the risk. Let the local entrepreneur draw in clients.
This is Canada, we are capitalists, and Starbucks has every right to open wherever they please. Do I really need to reference the South Park episode about this? Kensington will keep whichever business has better coffee afloat, I am sure.
Corina, this is an historic neighbourhood and goes beyond 'we are capitalists'.
The whole reason people visit this neighbourhood is that it's unique and putting a store there that can be found anywhere on the planet completely undermines it.
there seems to be renewed push to sterilize flamboyant kensington - bylaw officials threatening to take down storefronts, liquor inspectors sniffing around for minor offences in little places while downtown clubs literally get away with murder, meter maids hassling merchants making deliveries, health inspectors enforcing culturally ignorant protocols that saw cheese magic lose $5000 worth of artisenal produce...the list goes on
the media are happy to reinforce the stereotype of this community as being dirty because it doesn't smell enough like bleach and hasn't been whitewashed enough for the chattering classes to be able to take over.
add to this the addition of a flagship store for a multi-national corporation and it spells another attempt by the man to neuter rebellious kensington. if a bidding war ensues as greedy landlords jack rents to bring in anti-culture giants like starbucks, then we'll lose a lot of the ethnic ma-and-pa flavour in the hood, even if they do hire these poor folks on at minimum wage.
our councilor will fight this unwelcome presence in the market alongside residents, merchants, artists and all lovers of kensington. i love the old-world village charm of the shops here and the human characters that have made it an exemplary community. as small "c" capitalists they have the right to thrive without the threat of big "C" capitalists squashing them. our city doesn't need to destroy this 'hood in the name of cleanliness and conformity, there's plenty of places for that.
let's hope this thing blows over quickly. i'm off to grab some fair trade, locally roasted java in a place that isn't all plastic smile.
One Starbucks won't ruin the Market (though I definitely hope that they get run out of the 'hood on a rail should they set up shop here).
The real problem is the property owner, one Phil Pick. As a story in today's Globe and Mail made clear, he's already turned down several prospective tenants while he waits for a national chain like S-Bucks, Second Cup, or Lululemon.
And don't get me started on the Blue Banana and its phony yuppie ilk creeping south from College St. Why can't gentrification ever strike a balance with communities? It just tends to steamroll over everything and create a pastel parking lot of name-brands and franchisees with no connection to the neighbourhood beyond the fiscal.
Please forgive the rant. I just happen to love the Market as it is. I'm not averse to change, I'm averse to gentrification that makes the neighbourhood unaffordable for me, my friends, and the businesses that have been here for decades.
here's some news about starbucks looking at the n/w corner of augusta and nassau...
this morning, some folks pasted the building with "i *heart* my local cafes" and "kensington doesn't welcome multi-national corporations" and a detailed petition demanding that the market should be corporate store-front free
go check it out
release this to any media you see fit and also mention if you think it is relevant -
pedestrian sundays kensington hosted by streets are for people and the city of toronto, september 28th - all-candidates debate with federal candidates for our riding (3 - 4 pm on augusta between nassau and oxford) hosted by michael j
preceded by maracatu nunca antes and followed by samba elegua (afro-brasilian percussion) at augusta and nassau, ambassadors (funk) at augusta and oxford, dancing community spirit into the streets and hearts of kensington market
at north augusta 7 - 10, aline morales band followed by richard underhill and the kensington community horns
+ a fundrasier to print a passport-style directory of kensington (augusta house and the boat - both on south augusta, 7 pm 'til late late late...) - independantly produced with the generous support of Red Pepper Spectacle Arts and the Kensington Market Action Committee
see you there!!
As mom and pop shop owners in the area, a group of us feel our business is being dramatically affected by the so-called "defenders" of the market.
It is so extremely important to have space in the mind. Otherwise, you always create what you are fighting against. The psychology and the brand image of Kensington Market that people attach to is no different than the brand image that Starbucks has. Both are desperate for power.
Be creative, do something new. Kensington Market is a neighbourhood full of raw emotion and energy, it can be a leader in creativity and sustainability. And that doesn't mean Pedestrian Sundays.
Kensington is not like the rest of canada, or the rest of the world..
It is the last bastion where the people actually still live pro actively with the community,and have more effect on the ground then the government has...
The last time nike tried to open a franchise here it was literally ran out of the neighborhood by an angry mob and already there are signs of it happening again almost inevitably...
An example to all that you don't have to sit back and let business's concerned only with corporate interest desecrate your quality of life...
But, hopefully it won't get that far
People do actually live here, it's not just a disney land set we put up and take down for yuppies to venture into on weekends, these ideals are a way of life that are lived everyday, and there is sense of community here that nowhere else in the city can even shake a stick at...
Like honestly, this need to make everything cleaner and safer is what has made our city almost unbearable to much of the world...
SBux does not keep stores open that are running @ a loss. A store front is not simply a marketing tool - labour costs would be through the roof ... they are like every other retail store - if they don't meet their targets, labour gets cut then the store is closed shortly after if there is no change. I love how people think of Starbucks as a big bad corporation...what about all the jobs they are creating and the support they have on the local communities. Every SBux has a budget specifically allocated to contribute to the community around their location and with every store opening big bucks go to charities. Pike Place was the first location - let me remind you all that that's a small market place in Seattle. SBux are refocusing their efforts and concentrating on their core values ... I think they would fit in very well in Ken. Mrkt - if anything...they may tarnish their image a little by being around such nasty dirty stores!
If Kensington market will change forever with a single store, let it happen... where is the strong feeling of Kensington culture? Let people decide what they choose... Let starbucks run and close down after few months or years... They will close the doors if there is no income...
I don't see productive many people for world peace and sustainability in Kensington Market... There must be more important issues than Starbucks in the world... Or at least, why don't market people start to clean their streets from garbage and drug dealers??? There is so much consumption in the market but no productivity.
I shudderto think Starbucks would move into Kensington. AND I don't think Kensington is dirty. It is not the Eaton Centre but then it isn't supposed to be. If people want sparkling and shiny they should stay outta the market. Starbucks is closing stores left, right and centre, why would they even consider opening in a place where people are so adamately opposed? This is totally bizarre!
You people don't get it.
If starbucks moves into the market it will cause a huge rent increase for residents and family businesses that are all ready having a hard time making ends meet.
The people of this neighborhood do not want this here, and your opinions unless you are from Kensington frankly do not matter.
We like our streets and stores the way that they are, it keeps out all the whiners.
And gos to show that the majority are living in a repressive society that care more about aesthetics then whether or not family's are going to be displaced.
But from the looks of how things are going this won't even go through, a part of the land is on city property which gives our counselor more ground to stand on, as he understands, although not even being from here of the importance of letting community's decide what direction they want to see their neighborhood go.
Besides the fact that starbucks coffee tastes horrible - I don't think it will last long in Kensington, and if it does expect scant amounts of people in there. Mostly suburbanites and yuppies looking for the familiar and generic. I just came back from Paris and Rome, and though there are Starbucks in Paris, they are mostly populated by tourists and exchange students.
I don't think Kensington is glamourous or particularly beautiful, but for what little culture Canada and Toronto has (yes I know you will argue that), Kensington is a little refuge for those that want a little piece of somewhere else, even though it may last an afternoon only. Or place where you can find that special ingredient or hard to come by spice. There is a reason it lasted so long and will continue...changes will happen, but I think it has a soft spot in many people's hearts and will continue to be it's own entity.
Not everybody can attend protests and community meetings, so the least one can do is just NOT buy your coffee there and support the little guys down the street.
I think that even if this does end up happening, I'm sure the community will do everything in their power to shut it down. Can you imagine going to Kensington Market for a Starbucks Coffee? That's not why people go. I can see it now...local protesters booing everyone who enters the shop! Wouldn't you opt not to go there and instead find either something "Kensington" or if they must have their stupid Starbucks, they would go to the one down the block. The business would not stay open for long with that kind of commitment from the community I'll tell you that!
this is like my last refuge in toronto.. i've been living here my whole life (29 years) and recently have been considering moving away from the province all together..and this is a real big blow against everything i felt toronto had to offer all this time.. queen st has been striped clean of its former charm.. the arts hub around abell st.. and now this.. i'm so close to bailing, leaving the captains of toronto to go down with their sinking ship
Dear Stabucks, Please stay out of Kensington Market in Toronto. You do not belong there.
We have had this sort of problem in Melbourne with the golden arches. It is a matter of changing the dominant discourse and forcing them out. Let them know that they do not have the RIGHT to invade your space. See http://intergon.net/tsw/sustainableceos.pdf or http://www.myspace.com/thesustainableway
Let Starbucks know that they have a DUTY to go somewhere else with their corporate operations.
It seems that the heart of the problem is an aesthetic critique not a social or moral (although it could be an ethical aesthetic argument in which case I would love to hear more on the topic). That being said, if there is going to be a worthwhile discussion on this issue, please, for the sake of everyone, be clear on what exactly is the problem. I'm hearing a mish-mash of "corporation this", "tourists that", "standardization," etc.etc.etc. Fact is, if the argument is that Starbucks in Kensington will ruin the atmosphere by changing the clientele, people, let us not turn a blind eye to such establishments as "Waterfall." Are we not already experiencing this shift in clientele? The dingy, grimy, raw and real appearance of Kensington should be praised, but it should be praised for the right reasons. Similiarily, the green and black familiar Starbucks logo, and the hospital cafeteria vibe should be noted as well. Facts are facts and cannot be disputed, so please, when arguing this issue, don't make statements like "overpriced" when Moonbeam espresso is more expensive than Starbucks. Is it a difference between ceramic mugs and cardboard cups? Or between the type of machinery used to make the product? Or is it the seemingly ridiculous argument that independent coffee houses hire real baristas while starbucks hires the fake kind? Whatever the problem is, acknowledge it, and bear it the fuck out. But please, try to make sense when you do, otherwise people stop listening.
Again the issue here has little to do with whose coffee tastes better, arguably it's up to the individual to decide.
Coffee here is definitely more fresh as the beans are fried on site and most coffees sold are free trade, where as starbucks only has a few free trade brands which usually aren't on tap.
The main reason we are opposed to this from happening is it will cause a rent increase and force out family's and businesses that have made this neighborhood what is.
This is a moral issue which I think highlights some of the differences in ideology of our society.
Socialist who believe that family business should be protected from being threatened by Capitalists.
The Capitalist's who think that big business should be able to make a profit regardless of negative of effects on the community.
This conception that making somewhere cleaner will actually have any effect on issues like poverty or drug use is ridiculous, and probably the main reason it exists, look at queen st, tell me the existence of any real sign that things will ever get better in parkdale or cabbage town where there are people staggering around doorways of condos and hotels who could care less if the building is clean or not.
The people here believe that the only way to deal with these problems is at a community level, when people are treated like human beings regardless of economic status, and given help they need.
And it is not as easy a simply stating that your going to clean up a deep seeded problem like you wash your car.
Just heard that the real estate agent just backed out of agreements, even he wouldn't touch this one, more for his public reputation.
Another thing, the owner of this building has basicaly neglected it to the point that unless some one with tons of money to fix it buys ,it might be condemned.
This irresponsible land owner is trying get a free make over for his building at the community's expense.
Bravo
Most of the people who are against the Starbucks in Kensington Market are anti Americans. They're the same "type of people" of would also be opposed to any American company moving into their dirty neighborhood. Kensington Market is a dirty place, and I think a Starbucks would help clean the place up. I've been there myself. I currently live in Milton (I doubt anyone from Toronto actually knows where that is) and when I compare Milton to Kensington Market, the biggest difference is that Milton is a clean friendly place, and Kensington is a trashy dirty place.
Again, the people opposed to the Starbucks are anti Americans. They're the same people who want to turn Canada into a socialist nation.
I will brake something of Starbucks every night I walk by it.
and I don't even live there. It's my favourite place in Toronto.
To the person who said that Starbucks was an improvement on the corner of Bathurst/Queen. I totally agree with you on that point, it sure cleaned up all the mess that was there for a long time. I'm for Starbuck on that one, but Nassau/Augusta isn't the same messed up seedy corner. We don't need a Starbuck at Kensington Market.
Kensington is one of the few commercial neighborhoods in Toronto whose culture is really determined by the community who uses the market, and is more of a real 'home' to Torontonians than anywhere else in the city. Friends who visit Toronto from elsewhere in Canada are always impressed and warmed by it's uniqueness, even Montreal does not have an area with this particular kind of density. I'm really surprised that the value of this is even being questioned. The neighborhood needs to hold on to it's integrity. The idea of a Starbucks sitting there sounds like a depressing joke.
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