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Toronto city council endorses LRT for Sheppard East

Posted by Derek Flack / March 22, 2012

Sheppard LRT TorontoRob Ford suffered another dramatic defeat at city council today, as his colleagues voted 24-19 in favour of an LRT-based transit plan for Sheppard East. Doug Ford called it a "sad day for Toronto," while the mayor vowed to keep fighting for subways. What exactly the nature of that fight will be remains unclear, as today's vote should finally kill Ford's dream — let's be honest, it was never a "plan" — for a subway along Sheppard East.

"People hate the St. Clair...they hate these streetcars," Ford angrily shouted during today's debate. "You can call them what you want. People want subways folks. Subways, subways." But for all the ire he expressed earlier in the session, the mayor was calmer in his final address to council and when he briefly scrummed with reporters post-vote.

By that point he must have realized that there wasn't much point in putting up a fuss. And besides, as he and his supporters have said all along, this is the type of "loss" they believe they can build a future campaign on. That might sound paradoxical, but Ford will still be able to say to Scarborough residents that he fought tooth and nail for a subway, even if all he did was blow hot air.

Given the divisiveness of the whole subways vs. LRT debate, it's almost hard to believe that the issue has been resolved once and for all, but the reality is there is very little recourse that subway proponents have to alter the decision made today. Toronto has given the province the mandate that it demanded, and it's for LRT-based transit expansion.

Can we just get down to building now?

Discussion

301 Comments

Left / March 22, 2012 at 03:35 pm
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AND THE ANGELS SANG HAAAAAAAAALELUJAH
David / March 22, 2012 at 03:39 pm
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LRT will congest Sheppard, close local businesses, and provide a headache for drivers. Subways will not do this.

LRT will NOT provide economic development remotely close to what would happen with a subway.

LRT will meet its capacity in 2030, only 10-15 years after it was initially built. Subways will serve the residents of Toronto for over a hundred years.

LRT is not convenient, NO ONE is going to take LRT instead of their cars, and only people who HAVE TO will take it. Subways ARE convenient, and people will take it instead of their cars.

LRT is something world class cities build to compliment their expansive subway systems and link lines that are not already linked by subways. Though, Toronto is building LRT as the basis of their transit.

The city has been St. Clairized, and we along with our children and grandchildren will all be looking back in 50 years shaking our heads. This is a black mark in the history of Toronto.
NC / March 22, 2012 at 03:41 pm
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Finally we can begin the fight with the province to get the money.
NC replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:44 pm
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... no David, no.
Nick replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:45 pm
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@David: no car lanes are being removed, and if you look at St. Clair, things are very definitely on the up-and-up. LRT will serve the needs of Scarborough residents well into the future and you can sit in your car if you wish, but others may relish the ease, reliability, and convenience of the LRT with a platform-level connection to the existing Sheppard subway. LRT is the right choice for Sheppard, Eglinton, and Finch, especially as Ford didn't even have a plan to fund his Sheppard subway...he's had 2 years to get one.
Adam H. replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:47 pm
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Boy, the subway astroturfers didn't waste any time getting the talking points out, did they? That's the 3rd time on 3 different sites I've seen that set of untruths since the vote.
Antony replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:49 pm
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Toronto might end up like Houston... or Los Angeles... or Minneapolis... or Calgary... where NO ONE can drive, and the streets are barren wastelands.

Oh wait, it actually looks pretty nice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k86lBV5824
Paul replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:51 pm
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Your first point is misdirected. Of course it will congest and disrupt Sheppard; it's called construction!! And it's temporary!! And you say subways won't? The Sheppard subway construction certainly made a mess of the street, especially the station construction. You don't derail an entire transit plan because of temporary headaches.

Also, what economic development can happen with a subway that can't with a LRT? Both need construction jobs. An LRT keeps citizens at street level instead of underground - a bonus for local businesses.

I think the moaning about the "destroyed St. Clair Avenue" has been proven wrong. Everybody's okay, and any business that was 'destroyed' was probably on it's way out anyway.
sparrow replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:51 pm
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David you forgot it's a boondoggle.
Bill / March 22, 2012 at 03:51 pm
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@Nick: Well said. David might want to wait in his car until subways are available. The rest of us want LRTs. Good decision, Council.
Nick replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:52 pm
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I hope you're at least getting minimum wage for all that effort.
JP / March 22, 2012 at 03:53 pm
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David .... You are a delusional as chubby boy Ford.
NC replying to a comment from Antony / March 22, 2012 at 03:53 pm
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... and soon enough we'll have the palm trees too (not that *that* is a good thing).
Rick / March 22, 2012 at 03:53 pm
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The main issue I have with a Sheppard LRT is that it will be incredibly annoying to have to take a four-stop subway from Sheppard-Yonge and then transfer to an LRT (and the opposite as well.) I wish that the transition between the two modes of transportation could be easier.
Shane replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:53 pm
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Ugh ya, St. Clair street side is JUST AWFUL.

Meanwhile down at the BEAUTIFUL subway station of Queen/Dundas/Eglinton/any stops on the Bloor-Danforth, perpetually under construction Davisville or Union things are going very smoothly.

Did you plan on taking the subway from Shephard to Bloor this weekend. Oh, you can't, it will be "offline" during what some might call the peak hours. [/rant]
boo hoo replying to a comment from Antony / March 22, 2012 at 03:57 pm
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So who thinks RoFo is going to get falling down, pants pissing, blind drunk tonight?
Alex L replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:58 pm
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If subways are -so great- and LRTs -so bad-, Ford must be a real monkey (no disrespect intended to apes) to mess up the dream and make council think the opposite?
Nilay / March 22, 2012 at 03:59 pm
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yay now my transit has to stop for every single red light... sure i will take the transit that takes the exact same time to get me down town ... f*cking brilliant
Clay Jone replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 03:59 pm
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Hah, so laughable but I'll take the bait.

"LRT is not convenient, NO ONE is going to take LRT instead of their cars, and only people who HAVE TO will take it. Subways ARE convenient, and people will take it instead of their cars."

Who and the what now? How is subway more convenient? You have to go into a building (probably no where near where you live or work), pay a fair, go down a flight of stairs (or a flight of broken escalator) and then wait.

How is that more convenient then crossing the street (or walk to the nearest corner), waiting, then paying a fare while the vehicle continues on its merry way?
David replying to a comment from Nick / March 22, 2012 at 04:00 pm
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LRT is convenient? HAHA!

NOBODY is going to take LRT because it's "convenient." People are going to take it because they don't have cars and it's (slightly) better than a bus. On the other hand, subways are extremely convenient and people will take them instead of their cars. Not happening with LRT.
S / March 22, 2012 at 04:01 pm
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Look at the graphic carefully. See how the lrt rides low to the ground? Bet it will get stuck in the winter. On the plus side, when a cyclist cuts off the lrt (which most do), the idiots won't have much room to slide underneath it.
AV replying to a comment from boo hoo / March 22, 2012 at 04:02 pm
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Cue the 911 recording tomorrow in the press...
Jay / March 22, 2012 at 04:02 pm
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I live at St.Clair and Yonge. I have a car.
I take the St.Clair LRT, sometimes just to transfer to the University line. Yep...instead of driving.
Why? It is convenient, service is consistent and my BlackBerry works the whole time.

Justin / March 22, 2012 at 04:03 pm
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Bawww what a sad day, saving billions of dollars by putting something on the pavement instead of under the ground.

Commuters seem to make due right now with neither, so buck up.
EveryonesOpinion / March 22, 2012 at 04:03 pm
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I support subways but the Ford dream of a subway line is the worst thing ever and won't help many people.

Build the Eglinton & a Downtown relief subway line AND build LRTs for Finch & Sheppard
auditorydamage replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:05 pm
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25 LRT stops for people to reach businesses across Scarborough along Sheppard vs. a maximum of 8 subway stops to STC? I think the LRT will do much more to support all sorts of businesses across Scarborough than an underground tube to the mall would have. People from other parts of the city will be able to conveniently see what is available, and residents who live well east of the Town Centre will finally have a clean, reliable, high-capacity method of reaching downtown, along with the Eglinton LRT. Ford's stubway wouldn't even reach into Scarborough if his magic beans funding fantasy failed to materialize, leaving residents stuck on gas-guzzling, exhaust-spewing buses stuck behind ever-more cars.

As businesses and higher-density housing coalesce around the LRT routes, the tax base will improve, making more funding available for city services, and eventually a full subway if it comes to that - just like Yonge and Bloor-Danforth.

I lived along St. Clair before the ROW was installed. It was pretty grim and crumbling. The street has visibly improved since construction finished. New businesses are popping up, new residential and office construction is taking place.

This is a wonderful day. Finally, council is on record supporting badly-needed transit expansion and recognizes the need to get senior levels of government back into the game. Realistic expansion can be done *now*, and even the tax-averse wing of council realizes that infrastructure funding doesn't drop from the sky. Scarborough will have two new rapid transit lines within the decade; any new funding can go toward other parts of the city that desperately need expansion.

The only losers here are people who stubbornly clung to unfunded slogans and falsehoods perpretrated by people who don't care about mass transit. Ford should have been looking into funding sources for his subway the moment he declared Transit Coty dead, not one week before the meeting that decided everything. Had he shown some forethought and planning, we may never have had to go through multiple contentious council meetings. Ford has no one to blame but himself, and Sheppard subway supporters need to recognize where the fault lies - not with council, which made the most reasonable and effective decisions possible given the economic and political realities, but with a mayor who treated slogans as policy and bluster as planning.
David replying to a comment from Paul / March 22, 2012 at 04:06 pm
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You're wrong. St. Claire was 1 lane each way during construction. Sheppard had all lanes going with no disruptions for the most part.

Also, you couldn't be more false about economic development. I used to live at Bayview and Sheppard. By my count, from Yonge+Sheppard to Don Mills+Sheppard, 25-30 new condos have been built over the past 12 years. Why? Because of the subway! They're attractive to developers, they want to build along subway lines. Frankly, if you believe LRT is even remotely close to subways on economic development, you're ignoring the facts.
gonzo / March 22, 2012 at 04:06 pm
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Having lived at Yonge and St. Clair and being a transit user - I have to say that the streetcar on St. Clair is pretty to a disaster.

If you're on the streetcar, it's awesome. You zip along st. clair and are at the station in no time. But if you're walking and trying to cross the road, if you're driving, trying to get north of St. Clair from anything other than a main road or if you're (god forbid) trying to turn left...it's a gong show.

Get as much of this stuff underground as possible. Subways, underground LRT (Boston has that) - I don't care get it off the street, make it easy and make it awesome.


So much of this is driven by dollars. Screw the dollars, let's do what's right.
Alex / March 22, 2012 at 04:07 pm
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Oh man, I'm not even gonna bother replying to David. I try not to waste time on the willfully ignorant.

Kudos to Toronto City Council! Though, shovels have been in the ground for a while on the LRTs. The Eglinton one has been under construction for a few months at least (anyone know the exact date it started?)

It's sad that this is going to be brought up in the next election though, and numerous people will vote for Ford and his cronies because they actually believe all his crap. It just stuns me how gullible some people are. How do they function in normal life without the most basic of critical thinking skills?
Chris replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:08 pm
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Well David, if you're sad about the results, then blame the Mayor. He was the one who unilaterally "killed" Transit City in favour of his pipe dream for a Sheppard subway expansion, and then, satisfied with himself, didn't bother to "ratify" that decision at Council back when he had the almost unchallenged control of Council (and despite that being a condition of the MOU he signed with the Province). He then failed, during the ensuing period to even bother trying to build a case to support the extension of the Sheppard Subway.

His point man on the Sheppard file, Gordon Chong, produced a report that suggested (however dubiously) it could be done, provided Ford was willing to consider using various "revenue tools" to raise the money. Ford refused, and continued on with his belief that the magical money fairy would rain funding from the sky to pay for it. He continued to sound the horn for subways, but refused to consider any reasonable plan to pay for it.

When even his allies on Council from Scarborough, realizing that his "plan" was going to fail, tried, in the last couple of days, to get him to consider even modest measures to raise revenues, which may have been able to sway enough votes to his side - he refused again.

Council was essentially left with 2 choices:

-an LRT line, that, while perhaps not ideal, would be fully-funded, would serve a wider swath of the City, and based on reasonable projections of future population growth in those areas, was at least supportable, or


-extending the Sheppard subway 2 stops, at most, with no plan to pay for that construction, or any future subway growth, and absolutely no willingess to consider any options to use revenue tools to raise the funds to pay for it. Instead, the "plan" was to build it and hope the money will come. - ironically, the very thing that a true conservative would be horrified to hear. Oh and this Sheppard extension would barely do much for folks in Scarborough, unless you happened to leave somewhere near Sheppared and Victoria Park (I guesss it would get you to Johnny's hamburgers more easily), let alone anywhere in the City.

Despite all the rhetoric, misinformation, half-truths and flat out lies, mostly from the Ford side of the debate, that, and the risk of losing the Provincial money already committed if a decision wasn't made soon, was the decision facing Council. Under the circumstances, it was a more than reasonable result.

I know Ford apologists will not want to hear this, but at the end of the day, Ford is the reason the subway side lost. Simple as that. Not because anyone is out to get him, but because he he's too stupid, ignorant and arrogant to lead Council on this file. He thought he could just bully Councillors into voting with him, instead of doing the work to show it could be done, and refusing to open his mind to options that would enable him to get to the result he wanted (i.e. a funded Sheppard subway plan). That, David, is poor leadership, no matter how you look at it.

If the "subway" side had a different advocate, the vote may very well have turned out differently. Ford is truly his own worst enemy now.
Jord replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:08 pm
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Hey there David.

I assume you're some entitled Toronto elitist whiner who's never actually taken LRT. Judging by your rhetoric, I would go further and assume you're a car driver.

In Calgary -- where I went to university -- the modal split for commuters is about 50 per cent taking the LRT, 30 per cent car drivers, 20 per cent "others." This video is where I got that statistic. http://blog.calgarymayor.ca/2012/01/video-mayor-nenshis-2012-state-of-city.html

Could you elaborate on how stupid those fuckers in Calgary are for taking the LRT please?
Jason Kucherawy replying to a comment from S / March 22, 2012 at 04:10 pm
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Oh yeah, the LRT will get stuck in all the snow we get during the winter. Hey, remember how much snow we had to shovel this winter. Man oh man.
AV replying to a comment from gonzo / March 22, 2012 at 04:10 pm
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Yea thats it, build infrastructure based around the impaintence of drivers. Totally makes sense, just like your suggestion that crossing the road is now somehow more difficult.

Was your helmet fit to size?
vampchick21 replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:10 pm
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Pull your head out of your arse and take a moment to look at all the other MAJOR WORLD CITIES that use LRT with great success, then come back to us.
namehijacked / March 22, 2012 at 04:11 pm
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H8 PUB. TRANS. PLS WDN RDS. THX. I RITE U WRNG. DUN.
EveryonesOpinion replying to a comment from Chris / March 22, 2012 at 04:12 pm
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Kudos Chris, kudos.
Ratpick / March 22, 2012 at 04:12 pm
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Good. A decision.

Now don't screw it up, please!

Jason Kucherawy replying to a comment from Jay / March 22, 2012 at 04:12 pm
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What we have on St. Clair is NOT an LRT. It's streetcars. LRT trains are bigger, stops are further apart, and travel faster. It's more similar to an above-ground subway.
sparrow replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:12 pm
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David I'm confused there are dozens of condos in liberty village and along king street ... but I can't seem to find the subway that has caused them all to be built. I see a streetcar, but no subway.
Bitch / March 22, 2012 at 04:16 pm
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St. Clair II
David replying to a comment from auditorydamage / March 22, 2012 at 04:17 pm
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You're forgetting public/private partnerships, revenue tools, additional federal/provincial money, and any extra cash lying around from Eglinton. There is no way in hell Toronto would just get 2 subway stops from Ford's plan. It would be fully extended to STC, maybe not right away, but incrementally.

Also, subways will provide MUCH more economic development for Scarborough, and that's an indisputable fact. Stop sugar-coating fancy streetcars.
Ratpick / March 22, 2012 at 04:17 pm
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In that photo of the Bombardier train, where are the overhead wires?
Paul replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:17 pm
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Construction arguments are irrelevant. It's necessary but temporary evil, period. And I could easily insert "LRT" into your statement about developers liking "subways", and it would be just as accurate.
Hoodoo replying to a comment from Ratpick / March 22, 2012 at 04:20 pm
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It's a mock-up, you troll.
experience replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:20 pm
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tak any street in the downtown core. look at it at bloor and look at it at college dundas queen or king. streetcars are always better for businesses than subways. apart from the danforth and the annex. bloor (where the subway is) does not look great to its comparison on dundas queen or king. subways get no sunlight. no cell phone reception and if they break down you are stuck. you have none of those problems with lrt. also read some of the 'pre vs post st clair streetcar' articles out there. what you are saying is simply not true. also lrt's aren't streetcars. they are better.
David replying to a comment from Chris / March 22, 2012 at 04:21 pm
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You do realize council denied Ford the right to make a plan right?

Follow me here.

The Chong report was a preliminary report on the feasibility of a subway and the potential revenue tools that can be used. It was not a plan - that was to come after the Chong report. Problem is city council rushed a surprise vote last month purposely so that they could vote without a Ford plan. In addition, councilors voted today to defer the Subway/LRT vote to the Fall but that didn't pass. They denied him the time to make one.

It was not that Ford who had no plan, it was that city councilors did not give him the time to make a plan. He was supposed to use the Chong report to help with an overall plan, but he couldn't thanks to council.
experience replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:21 pm
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ask people who actually have a choice between streetcars or subways. most of choose streetcars.
gigi replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:22 pm
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I think it's a myth that subways always create economic development. Take a look at the crappy, derelict stretch of Danforth between Donlands and Main. Supposedly it was much more vibrant before they buried transit there.
The Doctor replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:22 pm
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Huh, all this time I thought your name was spelled D-O-U-G, not D-A-V-I-D. Surely there can't be two people in this city who are stupid enough to believe subways were ever a possibility. Oh, wait, there were exactly two...
David replying to a comment from sparrow / March 22, 2012 at 04:23 pm
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Yes, Condos were built there because it's DOWNTOWN.

I lived on Sheppard, I should know. The ONLY reason those 25-30 condos were built in the last 12 years is because of the subway. Anyone that says otherwise is wrong.
Kieren replying to a comment from gigi / March 22, 2012 at 04:23 pm
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Or the stretch on Yonge between Eglinton and Lawrence.
experience replying to a comment from boo hoo / March 22, 2012 at 04:25 pm
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hoping renata is wearing her helmet!
David replying to a comment from experience / March 22, 2012 at 04:25 pm
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What the hell are you talking about? People like to take streetcars over subways? LOL! I guess we should just fill in the Yonge subway and build streetcars then.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that every single poll done (even the skewed Toronto Star poll) said the taxpayers preferred subways.
Wan / March 22, 2012 at 04:25 pm
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LRTS are awesome!! This is a very good day for Scarborough/Sheppard. Something very good, instead of absolutely nothing.
David replying to a comment from Paul / March 22, 2012 at 04:26 pm
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Paul, LRT lines aren't nearly as attractive to developers as subways. You know that, I know that, now stop making yourself look silly.
Adam H. replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:27 pm
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David, Ford had 17 months to make plans. He didn't bother even to start until February. Then he tried to delay the vote past the March 31 deadline in order to simply kill the plans without a vote.

Council saw his bet and raised it with concerted action and an actual plan of their own. Ford could have come out of this a winner and instead he came out a whiner.
gigi replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:28 pm
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I will concede that those condos on Sheppard were built because of the subway and the potential resale value it adds to the condos. HOWEVER, I know several people who live in that area and none of them actually TAKE the subway, so what's the point? Surely we're not going to spend billions of dollars on a service no one uses just to artificially prop up property values are we?
limpsy_impsy replying to a comment from sparrow / March 22, 2012 at 04:30 pm
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sparrow replying to a comment from David / MARCH 22, 2012 AT 04:12 PM
"David I'm confused there are dozens of condos in liberty village and along king street ... but I can't seem to find the subway that has caused them all to be built. I see a streetcar, but no subway."


Oh, man, David. You're dumb! If you live in Liberty Village & King W, you're within walking distance of pretty much anything. And, even if you take the street car to the downtown core, it only takes 15 min. Even if you added a subway in this location, there wouldn't be much added benefit.

Contrast that with Scarborough where nothing is within walking distance. You either take your car or the TTC. If you want to go downtown, it takes 1.5 hours. LRT isn't going to do much to reduce the commute, and you still have to wait outside in the freezing cold.
Al / March 22, 2012 at 04:30 pm
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The St. Clair streetcars have done more for that street than the Sheppard subway has for Sheppard. When people are above ground and there are more stops, they use it for local transit more, as well as for long range commuting. Local businesses benefit. We will see if the same is true for surface LRT.
Marc replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:30 pm
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David, why don't you channel your hot air into your arms so that they can wield a shovel and start digging.
paul replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:30 pm
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How am I looking silly? We're debating facts. If I wanted to look silly, I'd be the only person on this message board defending a fat fuck of a mayor and his narrow minded vision. #you
David replying to a comment from Adam H. / March 22, 2012 at 04:31 pm
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He didn't bother to start until February? No.

Ford started when he appointed Gordon Chong to draw up a report on the feasibility of the Sheppard subway. The plan was to made following the completion of the report. Council did a surprise attack before Ford had enough time to make a plan. It really is a shame because they denied the residents of Toronto a nice new subway.
krs / March 22, 2012 at 04:31 pm
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What other city in the world has a pathetic subway system like ours? NONE. Two crappy lines that go east-west and north-south. What a shame. LRT are not the right way to build public transportation.
David replying to a comment from paul / March 22, 2012 at 04:33 pm
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Yes, reply to my comment without actually addressing what I said why don't you.

To suggest that LRT is just as attractive to developers as subways is so stupid.
Jord replying to a comment from krs / March 22, 2012 at 04:36 pm
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KRS, you're coming across as an entitled, Toronto elitist whiner. Sorry, I know that's mean. But it's the truth.

In Calgary -- where I went to university -- the modal split for commuters is about 50 per cent taking the LRT, 30 per cent car drivers, 20 per cent "others." This video is where I got that statistic. http://blog.calgarymayor.ca/2012/01/video-mayor-nenshis-2012-state-of-city.html

They're currently expanding the C-Train LRT system to the west. One of my friends is very excited for it to come near his house -- he's stoked that he won't have to pay for parking and he can use the LRT to mess around on his phone from the comfort of the train.

Please explain to me why my friend and Calgarians are fucking idiots who don't understand how a world-class transit system works.
Adam H. replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:37 pm
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Surprise attack?

So you're saying that Ford is so out of touch that the FACT that the Metrolinx MOU expires at the end of March is a surprise?

Why are you defending him, then?
stephen replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:37 pm
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This site makes me LOL
wow, you left nut hacks are literally insane. After St. Clair, still supporting a system that will literally top out in maybe more than a decade...and why? just because you hate the mayor...insane.
Bob / March 22, 2012 at 04:39 pm
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Lets be real here:

TORONTO NEEDS MORE SUBWAYS

But what the hell kind of urban planning would get a subway on a street with little density at all? That's just so stupid. Toronto needs a Downtown Relief Line, nit a Sheppard Subway extention. Growth should be encouraged closer to the city centre. - its better for the environment, stimulates growth better especially for the local economy, its cheaper to run a dense, compact city, etc etc. The benefits are endless. It is NOT the answer to build a subway so far off the city centre and it is NOT the answer to bring such expensive and expansive infrasctructure in an area that doesnt need it.
Josh / March 22, 2012 at 04:40 pm
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Kinda shocked the word "Streetcar" is still being thrown around, especially by Mayor Ford. LRT is not a streetcar. Aside from being incorrect, it evokes a negative and false image.

It was posted above already, but I'm going to post it again to drive the point home:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k86lBV5824
Paul replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:40 pm
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Oh David, I've long finished addressing your facts. I'm just sticking around to wind you up. #MoreFunThanYouTube
Javid replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:40 pm
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Obvious troll is obvious.
krs replying to a comment from Jord / March 22, 2012 at 04:40 pm
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I've spent time in Calgary and they're light wail system works for that small city and a small concentrated core. Toronto is massively spread out...like most major cities in the world (Tokyo, NYC). We need subways. It's the only long term solution for a world class city with our population.
Josh replying to a comment from krs / March 22, 2012 at 04:42 pm
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Rome?
limpsy_impsy / March 22, 2012 at 04:42 pm
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I support David's position that subways are better for the city.

Everyone else doesn't have a clue what the people of Scarborough go through in terms of their daily commute.
experience / March 22, 2012 at 04:45 pm
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they act like this ends all hope for subways. when the population warrants it in 2030 or 2040 a subway could be built along steeles or lawrence. But for our lifetime the LRT is going to be a perfect fit. it doesn't cancel what can be it is making the most of what is.
Chris replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:49 pm
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I respectfully disagree. Ford was given ample opportunity to come up with a plan. Chong's report while "preliminary" had all of the key ingredients in place for Ford to advance an alternate plan. The fact that Ford simply refused to consider ANY of the "revenue tools" laid out in Chong's plan pretty much ensured that Chong's final report would have been nothing more than a formality. Ford was fine with the recommendation, but unwilling to consider any of the options available to make it happen. What would more time have changed?

You can't consider his adovocacy of subways without considering the cost matter. Remember, this is the Mayor who claimed there was billions of hidden waste contained in the City budget, only to hire consultants who found nothing of the sort. ford is also the guy who claimed that private money would fully fund any proposed expansion of the Sheppard subway, but of course, had nothing to back this up. Again, I turn to Chong's report, which optimistically suggested that maybe 60% of teh proposed expansion might be funded through development charges, provided you can find developers willing to pay them.

Remember, Ford met with those developers, and claimed they all supported subways but neglected to mention to they had no desire to pay for them.

If it makes you feel better to blame Council, then that's your right, but Ford has had ample opportunity to at least show a willingness to consider other options (i.e. revenue tools) and he has consistently refused to do so. How do you expect Councillors in this climate to vote in favour of an infracture project that will cost billions of dollars, without anything resembling a plan to fund it?

Instead of spending his time formulating a plan to persuade Councillors to his point of view, he instead spent it marching up and down Scarborough screaming that people wanted subways (while conveniently ignoring the issue of how to pay for them), making patently false statements about LRTs (and his down Sheppared expansion plans, for that matter) and disparaging anyone who had a different point of view than his. Despite the efforts of others, including many of his allies, he wouldn't even consider any options to pay for it, that might've helped him win votes. Even Stintz way back when was trying to formulate a plan with other Councillors that would give him subway expansion in Scarborough without completely gutting Transit City - once again, he refused to consider it.

So to address your point - more time wouldn't have made any difference. If anything, he probably would've lost more voters.

Ford has been a fundamental failure as Mayor because he is ill-equipped to lead. He's in over his head, and hopefully the voters of this City will realize that come the next election.

I think we now need to focus our efforts on creating a model of sustainable funding for transit expansion so that we're not in this situation of waiting for a provincial handout to do anything. If Ford wants to show he's a real leader, that's where he'll put his efforts. After all, Transit City should not be the end of things, in terms of transit expansion - we can't just expand in 20 year spurts. It has to be an ongoing process.

NC replying to a comment from limpsy_impsy / March 22, 2012 at 04:49 pm
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You were going to get NOTHING!!!!!! There was no plan ... not enough money for Subway. Your commute just got infinitely better. World class cities have LRT. They rock!
Vampchick21 replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 04:51 pm
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David, have you ever been to Liberty Village? If so, please point me to the mystery subway station within Liberty Village that was the root cause of all the condos being built there.
Jord replying to a comment from krs / March 22, 2012 at 04:56 pm
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Tokyo density: 6017 persons per square kilometer (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&;rct=j&q=tokyo%20density%20&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stat.go.jp%2Fenglish%2Fdata%2Fhandbook%2Fc02cont.htm&ei=K49rT9eiAuTn0QGTod3sBg&usg=AFQjCNHjW_PlpzoAeBLUruhH5R3VHN9DSg)

NYC density: 10,429.6/km2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City)

Toronto density: 4,149/km2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto)

Sheppard density: This requires some math. https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toronto.ca%2Flegdocs%2Fmmis%2F2012%2Fcc%2Fbgrd%2FCC20_1_app3_14.pdf

Go to slide 9. Now 1 hectare = 0.01 km^2 (http://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&;ix=iea&ie=UTF-8&ion=1#hl=en&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&q=hectare%20to%20square%20kilmoteres&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=bd2f2ed89ed4cbea&ix=iea&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1618&bih=889).

I'm going to spitball here. But the density over the whole proposed Sheppard Subway corridor appears to be, at best, between 2500-5000 km^2. And it's probably closer to a lower number than the higher range. Downtown's density is closer to above 25000/km^2

Calgary density: 1,329.0/km (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calgary)

Anyway, what I'm trying to point out here is that Sheppard's density is closer to Calgary's than it is to NYC's or Tokyo's. Sorry.
Frank / March 22, 2012 at 04:56 pm
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The vote is very disappointing. We have elected for LRT and now have the same system as Buffalo NY, a city a fraction of the size of Toronto. Sad day for our incredible city.
gonzo replying to a comment from AV / March 22, 2012 at 04:57 pm
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There's a difference between impatience of drivers and it being completely impossible to cross a road - or make a left turn (unless of course you drive further down the road before waiting at a red light to make a u-turn).

I recently went from the TTC to driving to work because the TTC is such a piece of disorganized, outdated junk. And I'm actually saving money.
Kieren replying to a comment from Frank / March 22, 2012 at 04:57 pm
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Would you prefer nothing?

How's that for sad?
Frank / March 22, 2012 at 04:59 pm
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The NDP contingent must be very pleased with themselves too.
Alex / March 22, 2012 at 05:00 pm
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To all of the subway supporters, you can still build a subway! Just find the money to pay for it. Before the vote the main problem with the Sheppard subway was there was no money to pay for it. After the vote the main problem is there is still no money to pay for it. The vote changed nothing. If you magically find a few billion dollars, go ahead and build your subway.

Hopefully all the subway supporters realize that Sheppard has nowhere near the density required for a subway, and it is not projected to have that density for decades. So even if you did magically find the money for the subway, it would still operate at a loss for at least the next few decades. So remember that your taxes would have to go up to pay to keep it operating. By the time it has the density required for a subway we will probably have a new form of mass transit anyway. 40 to 50 years is a very long time in terms of technology.
sparrow replying to a comment from limpsy_impsy / March 22, 2012 at 05:01 pm
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Phew thanks for pointing that all out David actually had me convinced that subways were the only determining factor towards development in this city. I can now see many elements come into play other than just a subway line thanks to you. For instance in Councilors Chong's own report an LRT will raise property value in the areas around it - perhaps valuable land would be a stimulus for development and growth?
David replying to a comment from Adam H. / March 22, 2012 at 05:06 pm
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Yes Adam, let's ignore the fact that Stintz rushed a surprise vote before the Chong report was even delivered.
Doc Pickles replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:07 pm
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Yeah we get it David, you love your subways. So get a shovel and get to work, because we don't have any money left to waste, which is why we're doing the best we have with what we've got and building LRTs.
THE MAYOR / March 22, 2012 at 05:11 pm
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Hey Rug....washhh the number for 911? I'm gonna have all those hippie shtreet car homosh locked up. I'm the feckin MAYOR fer Chrysssht shake. Hey Mammo...when are youse gonna shtop crawlin up my ash like a drunk bozo? While you're in there shee if Rug will crawl out and pour me another drinky poo.
Warren / March 22, 2012 at 05:13 pm
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Subway liars. Incredible. Faith-based transit, yeah, that's gonna work.
Rob Ford: go beat your tribal hate war drums somewhere else.
Maybe we'll be rid of you shortly - or you can focus on reducing labour costs.
Alex 7 replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:13 pm
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How could the Chong report not have been delivered if all the details of it were released weeks ago? Also, the entire report is included as one of the reference docs used to come up with the expert panel judgement.

I don't think I am going to be able to convince you with mere facts anyway, but you do know that the Chong report called for extra taxes (in the form of parking fees, road tolls, property tax increase, etc.) to fund the subway? Also, it required development fees, and no developer was willing to pay them.

I think the fundamental difference between Ford supporters and everyone else is that Ford supporters don't use transit. They wanted a subway or nothing because both options are fine to them. Everyone that actually uses transit though wanted something, so a subway that had no funding and was never going to be built was much worse than an LRT for the rest of us.
theZube replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:19 pm
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Condo development along Sheppard because of the subway, really? What about all the condos that have been going up along King West, which is serviced by the busiest streetcar system in the city? There's more to development than building where the underground transit is, otherwise the Bloor-Danforth line would be a miles-long canyon of skyscrapers by now.
Jen Who Lives Downtown / March 22, 2012 at 05:20 pm
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Just wanted to say that David duking it out to the bitter end in the comment boards here is entertaining as hell!

Oh also, if Toronto ever wants to be a world-class city, the transit system needs an entire overhaul.

Carry on, David.

Gordon Chong replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:21 pm
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I've actually been paying my assistant out of my own pocket, because the mayor ran out of money long before my report was complete. Come to think of it this is analogous to the contents of my report, which essentially says we will run out of money long before the subway is complete.
David replying to a comment from Chris / March 22, 2012 at 05:24 pm
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Again, the notion that Ford wasted months neglecting to make a subway plan is false. The Chong report was the beginning of that plan. After the report came out city staff would have spend months drawing up a specific and detailed plan for Sheppard. Problem is that Stintz she-devil ruined the plan - and Toronto.
McRib replying to a comment from limpsy_impsy / March 22, 2012 at 05:24 pm
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If, as you say, in Scarborough "nothing is within walking distance" then it is nowhere near dense enough to support a subway system. As has been said before, if Scarborough wants subways its going to have to bulldoze all the subdivisions and build proper density. You can't look like Mississauga yet want transit like the core.

way to kill your own argument.
NC / March 22, 2012 at 05:27 pm
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How about RoFo cancelling Transit City (whoops) without a vote? Talk about a bum rush ...
David replying to a comment from theZube / March 22, 2012 at 05:28 pm
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Yikes TheZube.

I LIVED in that neighborhood! I know what's going on.

Are you saying that it is just a mere coincidence that all the condos all of a sudden got built right when the subway was built?

Oh brother.
:-) replying to a comment from Doc Pickles / March 22, 2012 at 05:32 pm
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Are you the real doc pickles? If yes, hi
David / March 22, 2012 at 05:36 pm
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Also, I neglected to mention something in my original post.

Toronto is a WORLD CLASS city. We don't deserve 2nd class transit. Why spend all that money and half-ass it? Get the shovels in the ground and dig! Build those 2 subway stops and the rest money will come eventually. Whether it's from taxes/levies, public/private partnerships, or additional government money, it will come.

Scarborough has been waiting DECADES for a subway. To hand them a shitty 2nd class transit system is a huge slap in the face the taxpayers of Scarborough. The downtowners need to WAKE UP!
AnotherDavid / March 22, 2012 at 05:40 pm
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The Warden and Kennedy Stations on the Bloor-Danforth Line have been in place since 1968. Is there any evidence that they have led to any significant economic development in Scarborough?
Josh / March 22, 2012 at 05:41 pm
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Rob Ford is right, people want Subways. I'd love to be able to take the subway to work. In fact, I bet if you asked, people would like cars. I've been talking to people, and they'd love a car! And 0% interest on their mortgage. And a 30% raise at work! Ford, I'm a taxpayer, and I want stuff!

Just because you WANT it doesn't mean its feasible.
NC replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:42 pm
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David, what about Malvern? They were to be missed with Rob Ford's route. Don't you think if anyone needed transit in North Scarborough it's the people of Malvern? A slightly more dense area than where the route was supposed to go.
Josh replying to a comment from AnotherDavid / March 22, 2012 at 05:43 pm
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There's a pretty sweet golf course at Vic Park. Yeah!.... Golf!
Vote NDP in the next federal/provincial election / March 22, 2012 at 05:49 pm
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I praise the 24 councillors for making a smart decision.

Mr Ford is becoming a lame-duck mayor that he might as well sit down and be quiet. He's a barrier to progress
Dr. Colon Oscopy / March 22, 2012 at 05:52 pm
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I'm THE MAYOR'S personal proctologist and he's asked me clear up some misconceptions about his apparent bias against sound fiscal management and eco friendly, viable transport options.

1) THE MAYOR actually tried to ride a bike once. I made enough cash extracting it to have new twin diesels installed in my yacht. I can tell you this because the non disclosure agreement expired recently and THE MAYOR is desperate for new talking points to distract from his humiliating defeat.

2) THE MAYOR doesn't really hate street cars...just the people who ride them. I know this because the stress created from all that hate requires me to personally excavate his bowels twice a day since the booze that used to accomplish this massive undertaking all seems to go to his fat head now.

Paid for by the Committee to Support Bloated Drunk Conservative Hack Politicians No Matter How Ludicrous or Imbecilic Their Half Baked Ideas Are.
iSkyscraper replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 05:53 pm
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Doug Ford, stop posting under false names already. You lost. Intelligence and common sense won. Move back to Chicago.
David Miller / March 22, 2012 at 05:54 pm
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my transit city plan is working.. because i went to harvard
Wan / March 22, 2012 at 05:58 pm
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The gravy train hath been stopped!!
Dawn / March 22, 2012 at 05:58 pm
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Okay, get on with the LRT and then talk about bringing the subway to Sherway or ... gasp ... Mississauga! Imagine if they were connected? Heaven. Sadly I'll probably always just have to imagine :(
Rizzy / March 22, 2012 at 05:58 pm
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Let Ford concentrate on issues that he is capable at making some leeway (if only completely marginal leeway) like dieting. Council will run itself, and before you know it, the next 3 years will come and gone, Ford will have lost 10-12 pounds maybe, and we'll have a new mayor. Win-win.
Rizzy / March 22, 2012 at 06:00 pm
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"People want diets, Folks. The tax payer voted me in to diet."
asdf / March 22, 2012 at 06:02 pm
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WE'VE GOT SUBWAY TROLLS in Toronto!
notdavid replying to a comment from limpsy_impsy / March 22, 2012 at 06:06 pm
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There are so many comments on here that are stupid, but one that I really hate is about the poor Scarborough people standing in the freezing cold!!! What about the thousands of us that stand in the freezing cold waiting for streetcars on Queen, King and Dundas? Deal with it, Toronto is cold in the winter. And if you think the cold is enough reason for a subway then build a downtown relief line, an area that actually has the density to support it and make it profitable! The LRT will serve far more Torontonians than a short Sheppard subway extension. Why do some people from Scarborough think they are the only people that matter?
Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 06:07 pm
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You people just don't get it. Many people's animus towards Mayor Ford has clouded their judgment. It's not just that subways are better than LRTs(and they are), it's that LRTs do positive harm to the street. Subways are better than LRTs simply because their right of way does not obstruct any existing traffic(except during construction). Streetcars(without right of way) are counter-intuitively better than LRTs. Why? Because ordinary people can use the space that the streetcar travels on when it's not there. The LRT won't allow people to use that space, so in other words it's going to be dead space except when the LRT is on it. The distance from Fairview mall to STC is about 8 km, that's 8 linear km that will be dead space most of the time. But you may say to me, that's the point, because of the dead space, the LRT, itself, is going to go faster. This is obviously true but this going to come at a cost of congestion for everyone else. You just have to use common sense on this. A Sheppard-Subway was win-win for users of municipal transit and motorists, a Sheppard LRT is a marginal win for municipal transit users(because it won't be that fast) and is a dead loss for motorists. I think many of the planners are aware of this fact, instead of proposing something that involves voluntary cooperation, they wanted to literally construct a physical impediment to driving.
CwG / March 22, 2012 at 06:09 pm
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David- prove to me you're not a ______ ________ and answer Jords question above to you about "those idiots in Calgary who take their LRT" (paraphrasing)


It's an incredibly valid question...

waiting for your genuis
Wan replying to a comment from Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 06:20 pm
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I'm fairly sure the plan keeps the amount of lanes in tact for most (or not all) of the route no? Help me out here people.
Wan / March 22, 2012 at 06:23 pm
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http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2010-10_04_fall_construction_notice.pdf ... nice widened lanes + bike lanes ... this is still the plan no?
Wan / March 22, 2012 at 06:26 pm
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Only HOV lanes reduced perhaps. I don't actually know at this time.
Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 06:28 pm
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Obviously subways are more expensive upfront but they have less capacity for their operating costs to balloon in the future as LRT most certainly will. Forgive me if I find something disingenuous in certain city councillors all of a sudden becoming fiscal conservatives- and therefore opposing subways.

Anyway, if the other people of Toronto like LRTs so much, as a resident of Scarborough I propose letting Scarborough be(returning to buses on Sheppard) and giving all of the trasportation funding to the west end and Central Toronto. It will be much better for Scarborough, for the west end and central Toronto - not so much.
davidthevillageidiot / March 22, 2012 at 06:36 pm
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wahoooo david is our village idiot entertainment tonight, good times.
David / March 22, 2012 at 06:38 pm
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BlogTO is such a great website. Honestly, you guys do a great job.

It's just a shame most of the site frequenters are downtown NDP'ers.
David / March 22, 2012 at 06:40 pm
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I also think Doug Ford is hot topless.
Jordan / March 22, 2012 at 06:46 pm
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Great win for the city today! Though this David fellow appears to have fallen off the boat - or maybe is just one of Ford's paid trolls - remember all of them from election time?

Anyhow - just a general note, I get that lrt's and streetcars are technically different things. But, for the majority of people - they look the same and more or less act the same. I think it would actually be to the benefit of most arguments to say they are the same - tell the people in Scarborough that they too can have Queen Street West, College Street, and King Street. The best parts of our city exist because streetcars run along them, not the opposite. So why on earth are people fighting tooth and nail to differentiate these things from streetcars? Besides, it's probably quite infuriating to be shown what's essentially a streetcar - and be told that no, this is something utterly and completely different from a streetcar. It's like being told a car isn't a car just because it has a higher speed limit than other cars - it's madness.
Poopdawg / March 22, 2012 at 06:49 pm
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Edmonton and Calgary have had LRT lines for over 30 years and they work just fine with a population density and car culture comparable to Scarborough. The inconvenience they put on drivers is minimal. I would know because I rode them and drove around them regularly for the last decade before moving here. Anyone who speaks out against an LRT line has never had any experience with them and just blowing hot air for the sake of it. This is such a nonissue it is laughable. I'm pretty sure there's more pressing matters in Scarborough to get worked up over than the introduction of usable god damned transit. Moronto at it's best.
A / March 22, 2012 at 06:49 pm
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i miss those construction notices that actually showed something getting built (can't wait for the next one). Paid LRT over mythical subway any day. and it actually reaches Morningside where i live! :) Mayor ford promises a subway that will never get built and people eat it up like candy.
David replying to a comment from Jord / March 22, 2012 at 06:50 pm
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I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Calgary politics and Calgary transportation. What I do know is Calgary is much smaller than Toronto and LRT may just be sufficient for Calgary (a much smaller city).

Toronto is different from Calgary, and LRT is not right for Toronto. I can not believe the idiocy that went on in council today. This is 2012, not 1912! Why we are building glorified streetcars in the year 2012 is beyond me. This an archaic mode of transportation that's going to RUIN Scarborough. The residents said they don't want an LRT and would rather have nothing. Of course, the nanny state left wingers wouldn't listen.

What a shame.
Arturo replying to a comment from Wan / March 22, 2012 at 06:51 pm
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This is simply factually wrong. Here from the City of Toronto website, the reduction of one lane, west of pharmacy until the end of the LRT line(which is most of the line):

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/faq.htm#q11
sutupwhiner replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 06:55 pm
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fing whiner, shut up. Democracy was in action today. Don't like it, move to markham.
Show me the money replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 07:01 pm
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David, subways may be nice and all but you seem to have neglected one point: WE CAN'T AFFORD THEM! I'm sure most LRT supporters would prefer subways too if cost were not an issue, but unfortunately it is.

Lest you missed my point, let me put it simply: WE CAN'T AFFORD SUBWAYS! In case you're still scratching your head, here it is again: WE CAN'T AFFORD SUBWAYS! Unless you know of some magic way to come up with the billions of dollars needed, I'm afraid your arguments don't hold any water.
Arturo replying to a comment from sutupwhiner / March 22, 2012 at 07:03 pm
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Democracy was not in action. Stintz and her ilk highjecked the democratic will of the people of Scarborough, in order to force through their vision. Get real.
Doug / March 22, 2012 at 07:07 pm
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Scarborough can get a subway when:

A - it gets a few thousand people per square kilometer more and welcome the demolition of single-family homes and strip malls to make room for condos and townhouses to make that possible;

or B - is willing to pay a hefty tax hike to pay for trains and stations that are empty most of the time.

Pick one.
David replying to a comment from sutupwhiner / March 22, 2012 at 07:08 pm
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Contrary to your believe democracy did not win today.

-The Mayor wants subeays
-TTC GM Andy Byford wants subways
-The 6 Scarborough LIBERAL MPPs want subways
-ALL the PC MPPs want subways
-The PRIME MINISTER wants subways

And most importantly, the taxpaying citizens of Toronto want subways.

Democracy may have won on council, but when you look at it as a whole, the people who want subways FAR outweigh the people want LRT. The citizens (and higher level of government) have spoken.

Wan replying to a comment from Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 07:11 pm
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Well, it was more of a question. West of Pharmacy reduced to two lanes. That's a very small portion of the line ... http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2010-11_project_overview.pdf (unless there's a revised route).
Arturo replying to a comment from Show me the money / March 22, 2012 at 07:13 pm
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I am going to defend David on this point. Let me just say that you are missing a key point of logic.

Just because subways are not affordable at the present time does not make LRTs into a good thing. The two issues are *independent*. The two issues are being linked because of political subterfuge. Don't think that there aren't special interests at work, Transit City already says that Bombardier would be the exclusive monopoly provider of LRT cars.

I think for instance that express buses would be much better than LRTs, why have something that creates congestion for everyone else when you can have buses which don't require hundreds of millions of infrastructure to make work.
Wan replying to a comment from Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 07:14 pm
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West goes the other way ...
Arturo replying to a comment from Wan / March 22, 2012 at 07:21 pm
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You're right, I just noticed that. The fact remains that the whole line will exist to block people from the street to businesses on either side.
infernalmachine replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 07:33 pm
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dude, toronto is NOT a "world class city."

we're a 2nd class city, albeit a nice one which i love, that is trying very hard to learn to (finally) join the big boys... however, we have a humongous host of issues to chomp through first (besides transit, i can think of: affordable housing, a proper plan for development and densification, attracting businesses, getting our fair share of provincial/federal tax money, developing some more culture).

i mean, i love toronto but for lordy's sake it's no new york, paris, munich, goteburg, amsterdam, london, tokyo, singapore, or even chicago. all those places have their ducks more in a row than we do.
Grant / March 22, 2012 at 07:34 pm
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People buy condos on Sheppard because they're near the 401 and DVP, not the subway.
I'm sure Bayview Village doesn't hurt either. To suggest that the ONLY reason condos
exist on Sheppard is because of the subway is laughable.

Regarding this whole debate - The conflict is over the philosophy of what a "street" is. A more nuanced view of the world these days doesn't treat our urban space as a conduit. It's not as Rob Ford said today about getting from A to B, people should really start thinking about the quality of the experience getting there. That's way I ride my bike. I care about what it's like to interact with the city, and what kind of place I want to live. LRT is the right choice because it's better for the quality of the street life, and that's what good cities have. Great cities aren't about zooming past them in your car. If you hate cities, maybe there is somewhere else you should live. Those of us who love cities are trying to make them more liveable.
beerguy / March 22, 2012 at 07:57 pm
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Where we need more subways is downtown. Taking the subway north / south is a nightmare during rush hour. Expanding overground rail on unused rail lines would help as well.

Street parking is what ruins LRTs on St Clair. In places there are 2 whole lanes of cars that are stationary - essentially blocking the road. That wouldn't fly in any other densely populated city.

The one good idea that came out of the Ford camp is a parking tax. Miller blew it big time with the vehicle registration tax he implemented. Penalizing Toronto taxpayers while letting 905'ers clog up our roads for free was a big mistake.

Of course, Toronto politics are so dysfunctional that if anything gets built it will be a freaking miracle.
AllanVS replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 08:15 pm
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Subways will be a money loser for decades, maybe even a century ore more. There will NOT be enough growth on Sheppard to support it.
There is a TON of space along Sheppard - for the most part - to widen the road to accommodate the LRT. They're already working just east of Kennedy, and can do that now, while putting the underpass in.
Cost wise, the only way subways would have worked, was if the council (and we know this would never happen...) would have ALL taken pay cuts ... cut the Mayor's salary down to $99,000, and cut councilors down to $59,000.
Cut the TTC wages for collectors, and maintenance by 20% - no collector needs $25+/hr. Cut outside and inside workers wages. Reduce office budgets for Councillors by $10,000 and we MAY be able to afford the subway by 2030.
Nick replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 08:38 pm
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@David re. your comment about LRTs not being attractive to developers: check out the billboard outside of the condos going up at Leslie and Eglinton...the Cross-Town LRT is featured prominently.
jd83 / March 22, 2012 at 08:40 pm
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Hey David,

You forgot Tim Hudak wants subways!

Forget under Harris they wasted $100-million cancelling and the Eglinton-West Subway Project. Actually spending money filling up a hole! But he sure wants subways now.

The thing is, everyone would take subways if offered. But the transit plan voted on today is best for all Torontonians. Not just the people in Scarberia (Which I commute to everyday).

Why do you hate the rest of the city? You know, the people that won't get a decent transit option for probably decades after a mess like Ford wanted to pass...

Deal with it, it's done.
Nick replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 08:46 pm
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@David, re. your comment that democracy didn't work today and that:

- The Mayor wants subeays
-TTC GM Andy Byford wants subways
-The 6 Scarborough LIBERAL MPPs want subways
-ALL the PC MPPs want subways
-The PRIME MINISTER wants subways

Well I want a subway to my door too. But Ford's buddy Harper didn't offer to pony up $1 billion buck when he made the his quip about wanting subways. And Ford didn't attempt to get the province to pony up the money, even though he's had two year to do so. He's failed at his quest - heck, he wouldn't even endorse his own man Chong's recommendation to implement surcharges or taxes to pay for his socalled plan. In any case, LRTs are better options for these parts of the City. The current Sheppard subway is only at 15% of capacity v. 100% plus for the Yonge and Bloor lines, so if money should go to a subway, it should be for a downtown relief line. Ford should try taking the St. Clair streetcar (not LRT) which does run it its own right of way. He might be pleasantly surprised. And I'm willing to be that the people who're on it don't hate it, as he purports.
Nick replying to a comment from Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 08:47 pm
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Ahem, two Scarborough councillors voted for the LRT, Aurturo.
jd83 replying to a comment from Nick / March 22, 2012 at 08:56 pm
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And Ron Moeser said he would respect the choice of council and that the subway plan had issues.

Anyone know why Moeser didn't vote? Is he sick or something?
bj / March 22, 2012 at 08:58 pm
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at this point i dont even care. just build something already
Miller Light / March 22, 2012 at 09:04 pm
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great stuff, can we work on the DRL now?
Marie replying to a comment from Alex / March 22, 2012 at 09:09 pm
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Alex. You are a very smart man! Just ignore all that hot air.. Sheppard subway carrying only 1/2 expected capacity. And the St. Clair West corridor is infinitely more welcoming, walkable, accessible and community-building than the Sheppard East corridor. It's a very liveable, viable neighourhood. But, the Sheppard corridor IS very attractive - to developers.
Tony / March 22, 2012 at 09:14 pm
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Read Unbuilt Toronto 1 and 2. The people of Toronto always rob future generations of a nice city. When I was a kid I remember Toronto being compared to Chicago in terms of population and potential, but we have fallen way behind due to lack of leadership. The LRT will cost Toronto tax payers more in the long run because it more expensive to maintain in our climate, so of course it's a mistake and it will be torn up and replaced with Subways within 30 years - guess who will pay for all that? Having a vision for a city requires long-term planning and consideration. It should have little to do with anyone born yet.
Pro-Ford Comment Trolls / March 22, 2012 at 09:18 pm
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OH MY GOD!!! WE DONT KNOW WHAT TOO SAY!!!!!!!1 WE HATE FACT'S!!!! STUFF THAT IS RESEARCHED IS SO ANNOYING!!!! THE REAL TRUTH IS IN OUR GUT!!!! AND WE ALL HAVE REALLY HUGE GUTS!! OBVIOUSLEY!! LISTEN THE PEOPLE WANT SUBWAY'S! THATS WHAT WE ALLWAYS SAY BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE MAYBE ITS TRUE?!??!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS A LRT TRAIN??!?!?!!!! WE HATE STREETCAR'S!!!!! IF ANYBODY VOTE'S THE WRONG WAY WE ARE GETTING IN OUR DADS SUV'S AND GIVING OUR MIDDLE FINGER'S TO MOMS AND LITTLE KiDS!!!! btw DID WE MENTION ITS HARD TO TYPE WHILE CRYING? OH BABY JEBUS PLEASE HELP OUR MASTERS AND MAMA LEETIE AND SUE ANNE LEVIS. IMAGRINTS TOOK OUR JOB'S SO WE ALLWAYS POST HERE AND YELL. SIGNED, DAVID, JAY, ETC.
Feng / March 22, 2012 at 09:27 pm
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Is there any way to change the results? We need subway for all these three lines (eglington, finch, and Sheppard). Don't be short sighted, we need vision for long term, so our children, grandchildren, and many generations to come to proud of.
Jay replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 09:34 pm
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If the subway was the cause of all those condos on Sheppard i'd rather not have them, have you seen the BOAT??? Wait, you said you lived at Bayview and Sheppard, did you live in the boat? Did you wake up in the morning and pretend you were leaving port when you got on the subway?
JunctionJim replying to a comment from gonzo / March 22, 2012 at 09:35 pm
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You zip along St Clair in the streetcar until an accident at an intersection closes the whole route down for an hour and a half...
sezme / March 22, 2012 at 09:48 pm
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It's about time we finally voted to get LRTs on Sheppard. The existing subway there is a massive fail (Thanks, Mel!). It doesn't even stop at Ikea!

I suggest that in the future, we remove the subway tracks in the Sheppard tunnels and replace them with LRT so that we can have one seamless ride all the way from Scarborough to Downsview. That would be world-class and would befit the density on Sheppard (though judging from David's comments, perhaps I'm underestimating the density on Sheppard). Then we can use the current Sheppard cars on the downtown relief line.
David replying to a comment from Jay / March 22, 2012 at 10:00 pm
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Haha no I didn't live in that ugly boat. I can't believe they actually built that - driving north on Bayview it looks like a barge is approaching.

But I re-affirm my point: Of the 25-30 condos that were built, maybe only a quarter of them would have still been built without a subway. Subways = economic development. LRT = closed business (see St. Clair).
sezme / March 22, 2012 at 10:00 pm
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The most unintentionally hilarious part of this debate is the people who criticize the living-within-their-means LRT crowd as not having a vision for and not being willing to invest in the future.

Ahem. Since you seem to forget because it was all of 15 months ago, Rob Ford was elected mayor on exactly the platform of living within our means and not having a vision for the future besides saving money today. That was his vision. Period. It was David Miller, George Smitherman, Joe Pantalone who wanted to invest in the future, but Rob Ford would have none of it. Actually, Miller, Smitherman, and Pantalone also wanted to live within our means, but with an eye for the future. Ford and no eye for anything except stopping the "gravy train". Now he wants to build one, with no eye toward the bottom line, and you all defend him. Hilarious.
David replying to a comment from AllanVS / March 22, 2012 at 10:02 pm
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Your comment is asinine.

With Public/private partnerships, sensible taxes/levys, and potentially more government funding, we can have a subway to STC within a decade.
David replying to a comment from Nick / March 22, 2012 at 10:03 pm
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LRTs aren't even close to subways in terms of attractiveness to developers. Not even close, and that's an indisputable fact rather than a matter of opinion.
David replying to a comment from jd83 / March 22, 2012 at 10:07 pm
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What Harris did in 1995 is irrelevant, and I still don't understand why lefties bring it up all the time. It was 17 years ago, and the current political situation has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Anyways, what is this "Why do you hate the rest of the city?" hogwash? Do you mean the rest of the city that already has transit? Scarborough has been waiting for a subway for decades. It's time to deliver that to them instead of 2nd rate LRT. In fact, after all the clamoring for a subway, these streetcars are a slap in the face to the citizens of Scarborough.
Al replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:22 pm
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Scarborough has a subway.
JoshHFX replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:22 pm
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What's this about "25-30" new condos along Sheppard? Sure, a few have gone up near Bayview Village, and some next to Ikea at Leslie, but the bulk of the development in North York has been on Yonge from Finch to Sheppard. Of course, this only really started to happen 20+ years after the Yonge line opened, and if you walk five minutes from Yonge in either direction you'll end up in neighbourhoods of single-family homes that were built - and have hardly changed - 40-50 years ago.

Of course, for the best evidence that subways do not in any way shape or form necessarily lead to major development, one need look no further than the Spadina extension. Still waiting for those condos to be built around Wilson, Yorkdale, or Glencairn. Yorkdale in particular is situated in an utterly sleepy area of detached houses with absolutely no development of any kind. All the apartment buildings and development (to the extent it has happened) is over on Bathurst.

I should also add that as one who frequently has to wait 20 minutes or more for a Wilson bus to York Mills station, the utter neglect in this debate of improved bus service is quite galling. Why we should spend $1bn to offer Victoria Park and Sheppard a subway station - and continue to swallow even greater Sheppard subway operating losses - when service is often so inadequate elsewhere in the network is beyond me.

But then Rob Ford and his ilk only take transit for PR stunts or to be seen to be "listening" to the "People". Perhaps Ford would like to commute downtown via transit from Bathurst and Wilson for a month.

(Oh, and Scarborough Town Centre already has the RT - soon to be replaced by grade-separated LRT like the Eglinton tunnel - which goes directly to Kennedy. Why should be build a subway to a mall?)
JoshHFX replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:27 pm
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Oh, and another thing - since when does condo development require subways? I grew up in Thornhill, and in the past decade alone several new condos have gone up near the Promenade, a mall not served by *any* form of rapid transit apart from buses. Similarly with development along King West or Queen - areas served by - gasp!! - streetcars!!

I should add, David, that you might have a different perspective had you ever had the experience of waiting for a Bayview bus in the November rain after transferring off the pointless stubway. I don't fucking care about Rob Ford's claims about what the "People" want. I know I don't want a mayor and "administration" who actually tried to cut TTC operating funding.
JoshHFX replying to a comment from jd83 / March 22, 2012 at 10:28 pm
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Yes, he's sick and hasn't been able to come to recent council meetings.
JoshHFX replying to a comment from Arturo / March 22, 2012 at 10:31 pm
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Bombardier is already the monopoly provider of subway cars... what's your point?

Buses have less capacity and actually take up more space than any LRV. And in contrast to rail, they are incredibly bumpy and uncomfortable.
JoshHFX replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:32 pm
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What residents would sooner have nothing for 50 years than LRTs? That's nothing more than Mammoliti's insanity.
Grant replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:37 pm
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Where was some of this passion for public transit when the TTC operating budget was being cut in November?


BBOY_InTO replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:38 pm
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He had an entire year David! How long does it take? The problem with
This entire debate is that the plan for Transit City was voted on
And Passed by council in 2009. Why does the next Mayor get to reopen it?
Does that mean that every time we have an election we go back and Re-vote everything? This entire process has been a horrible stain on our city. This Mayor is trying to pit the suburbs vs downtown so he can get re-elected. Well it won't work. Torontoians from Etobicoke to North York to Scarborough are not that stupid. Council listened to it constituants and did the right thing. Toronto and Scarborough will be better off with LRT's.

BBOY_InTO replying to a comment from sezme / March 22, 2012 at 10:40 pm
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BOOM!!! I love that idea. At least someone is thinking.
Jennifer replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:40 pm
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You do realize that no one is going to dig for free, right?

But maybe you might.
Jay replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 10:49 pm
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I respectfully disagree with your points about LRT vs Subways but thank you for at least having a sense of humour! To me this issue is not about pitting LRT against subways but rather a shift in thinking at the government level away from pet projects to a planning principle based model. Mode should be decided using density projections, capacity, available funding etc. Resident wants should be factored into the equation but should not be the sole determination. As I have a background in transportation planning, I find the level of debate on this issue has been absurd. Just my two cents.
David's Mom replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:07 pm
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The only asinine comments I've seen so far have been from you young man. Also stating the same lies over and over again, and appending "indisuputable fact" does not make them any less bullshit. Now go tuck your tail between your legs and ask Nick Kouvalis for a new schill strategy.
Jay replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:09 pm
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Also, following up on your comment regarding development with LRT vs Subway. Studies and reality have shown that both LRT and Subway support new developments. The difference being Subways spur nodal development (i.e. at the stations) whereas LRT will have lower density development along the entire length of the line. There are exceptions though, the east end of the Bloor Danforth line has not seen the same level of development that Sheppard has experienced as of late. As for St. Clair, if a business cannot survive construction, it more than likely would have failed anyway. We have to look at the new developments that have sprung up in their place to get an accurate picture of how the right of way impacted development. But that's not to say that all new development on St. Clair is due to the right of way. Starting to ramble, could go on but won't.
Andrew / March 22, 2012 at 11:14 pm
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Toronto density 4,149/km2

Greater London density 4,932/km2

Toronto has 2.5 subways lines, the Scarborough RT, and commuter trains that mostly run in rush hour only, and the busiest highway in North America. London has a bad highway system, but it has 11 subway lines + the Docklands Light Railway + the Overground + many frequent commuter train lines + a tiny light rail system which isn't very important. Light rail might be suitable for minor feeder lines like St Clair but given that Eglinton/401/Sheppard/Highway 7 etc. are massively congested at all times of day a suburb to suburb subway is badly needed to get drivers off the roads and light rail is totally inadequate.
Dr. Colon Oscopy / March 22, 2012 at 11:17 pm
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"As I have a background in transportation planning, I find the level of debate on this issue has been absurd. Just my two cents."

Hi Jay,
Blob and Rug asked me to tell you your cheque for 2 cents is waiting to be picked up. They know you had your heart set on something you believed was commensurate with your experience as a noted fart catcher but after this fiasco you should be thankful that's all your getting from these guys. They're hot enough to hump. As their proctologist I can tell you these two aholes have been reamed to the max and they've reached their limit. You'd be well advised to have someone pick up your pay unless you'd like Rug to introduce you to his brother's tunnel where "the sun don't shine".
Pro-David / March 22, 2012 at 11:23 pm
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Hold on…

Do you remember in Independence day when the guy survived the aliens because he was in the subway? I'm pretty sure that's worth it to add a tiny amount of underground subway. I mean, think of the people in scarborough. They're people too. ALL THE PEOPLE IN TORONTO WANT SCARBOROUGH TO BE SAVED! I definitely want my tax dollars to go to a subway for scarborough.

Money? Didn't you hear me?? ALIEN ATTACK people!! A street car isn't going to protect you from aliens… Subways and Will Smith are!
MER1978 replying to a comment from Tony / March 22, 2012 at 11:23 pm
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"The LRT will cost Toronto tax payers more in the long run because it more expensive to maintain in our climate"

... care to explain how LRT will be more expensive to maintain?

The TTC report that Ford requested then suppressed said we're paying $250 million per year maintaining our existing subway lines.

Have you been in any of the existing subway stations lately? A rather large number are practically falling apart... many don't have proper accessibility for wheelchairs + strollers... oh and the ones which do have elevators don't have them working much of the time... or maybe that's what you mean by cheap... build it and then just let it fall apart.

On top of all of that... add the millions per year subsidizing subway that will run well below capacity for decades if not forever... again cheap?
Pro-David replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:24 pm
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Hold on…

Do you remember in Independence day when the guy survived the aliens because he was in the subway? I'm pretty sure that's worth it to add a tiny amount of underground subway. I mean, think of the people in scarborough. They're people too. ALL THE PEOPLE IN TORONTO WANT SCARBOROUGH TO BE SAVED! I definitely want my tax dollars to go to a subway for scarborough.

Money? Didn't you hear me?? ALIEN ATTACK people!! A street car isn't going to protect you from aliens… Subways and Will Smith are!
Pro-David replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:24 pm
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Do you remember in Independence day when the guy survived the aliens because he was in the subway? I'm pretty sure that's worth it to add a tiny amount of underground subway. I mean, think of the people in scarborough. They're people too. ALL THE PEOPLE IN TORONTO WANT SCARBOROUGH TO BE SAVED! I definitely want my tax dollars to go to a subway for scarborough.

Money? Didn't you hear me?? ALIEN ATTACK people!! A street car isn't going to protect you from aliens… Subways and Will Smith are!
Bob dylan replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:25 pm
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Downtown has been waiting longer for a subway and the density here is waaaaaaaaay beyond that of Sheppard (now and decades to come) not to mention would make subways an actual source of revenue. There will not be such a payoff with a Sheppard subway. Just look at the one that exists - its been twenty years, and how long has it taken for a majority of the condos there actually get under construction? Not to mention: THE PLACE IS STILL SUBURBIA. A majority of people drive, you cant get anywhere with walking, and the subways use is far below expectations, its not a source of revenue at all. And this is, of course, the more populated part of Sheppard.

It also makes no sense at all to say LRTs destroy local businesses. Can you see shops when you're underground? No. Do further spaced apart stations help you find things better than being able too see the street? No. Surface rail is better for spurring local businesses and if you care to argue take a look at Harbourfront, Queen, Spadina, Dundas, Roncesvalles, Parliament, and College and compare that to existing subways, especially your beloved Sheppard subway.

Your arguments are so invalid I question where you get your information from - the Sun?
David / March 22, 2012 at 11:27 pm
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Okay, I admit it I am one of Mayor Fords Advisor's. He is a great man and i enjoy working for him. His ideas and passion will make this city into a world class city.
Davidtherobfordbehindkisser replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:30 pm
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"What Harris did in 1995 is irrelevant, and I still don't understand why lefties bring it up all the time. It was 17 years ago, and the current political situation has absolutely nothing to do with it. "

i know you are slow and all, but we would not be burying a lrt if harris did not cancel that subway. We would not be arguing to completely bury it not all the way to STC.
boris moris replying to a comment from Andrew / March 22, 2012 at 11:30 pm
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London, UK has considerably more population than the entire province of Ontario. It was a major metropolis long before cars were invented while Toronto has largely been developed around accomodating cars and trucks. Bad comparison.
Jay replying to a comment from Dr. Colon Oscopy / March 22, 2012 at 11:33 pm
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Level of sarcasm hard to detect, not sure if serious. As for my comment regarding the level of debate, it applies to both "sides". Sound planning was lost in a sea of slogans, talking points and bickering.
MER1978 replying to a comment from David / March 22, 2012 at 11:35 pm
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"Anyways, what is this "Why do you hate the rest of the city?" hogwash? Do you mean the rest of the city that already has transit?"

Maybe they're talking about the areas of the city which have the density to pack larger vehicles during rush hour TODAY aka Queen + King... you know where there is density NOW to support subway vs. areas that have nothing close to that sort of ridership today and probably never will... but don't worry guys... we have a magical money tree... blow tens of millions per year subsidizing half empty trains... no problem... we obviously don't have anything better to spend our money on... infuriating.
acb87 / March 22, 2012 at 11:44 pm
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this is the single biggest mistake the city has ever made.
Brad / March 22, 2012 at 11:45 pm
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Great, this will shave 10 minutes off of my commute, too bad my LRT stop will be a 20 minute walk from home.
SmithermanLostGetOverIt / March 22, 2012 at 11:54 pm
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"BlogTO is such a great website. Honestly, you guys do a great job. It's just a shame most of the site frequenters are downtown NDP'ers."

Unfortunately It's more of a Rob Ford circlejerk around here. That's the shame. Never two-sided arguements. Just fat RoFo jokes as consolidation for losing Smitherman. Keepin' it classy!

I'll quickly mention that if a city can't afford subways, the correct approach is to not settle for LRT. It's amazing how so many people want LRT because it's cheaper and will be built faster so that LRT supporters can get to and from work faster. This issue is bigger than all of you folks. Subways, LRT's; they won't affect myself one way or the other but I see the bigger picture and a looong time from now when you and I are 6 feet under the city will regret its decision. No money? Then wait.

When you buy a house you want you get it. If it's too much you wait. If it's too much you don't get the cheaper one you saw earlier in the week that you didn't like because you know you'll have to fix it up in a few years. You guys are so near-sighted it's more funny than anything else.

Now carry on with the Ford weight jokes. It's what you folks are best at, or perhaps second best at next to complaining :)
ButILikeFatJokes replying to a comment from SmithermanLostGetOverIt / March 23, 2012 at 12:04 am
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You're right. We don't have the money, so let's wait. Hey Canada, can you please deposit that 8 billion dollars into my ING account so I can build something when the interest comes up with the extra little bit I need to build this inch long subway? Screw transit. Bicycles for everyone!
boris moris replying to a comment from SmithermanLostGetOverIt / March 23, 2012 at 12:07 am
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"Unfortunately It's more of a Rob Ford circlejerk around here. That's the shame. Never two-sided arguements. Just fat RoFo jokes as consolidation for losing Smitherman. Keepin' it classy!"

You need a few more doubles there, you sound like one of Blob's high school dropout sidekicks. What's the matter...are Blob and Rug hogging all the booze at your pity party?

BTW...where's Mammo? Why didn't he vote today? Is it my imagination or does Blob look like he's gained about 240 lbs in his ass since yesterday?

Is that classy enough for you?
Dr. Colon Oscopy replying to a comment from Jay / March 23, 2012 at 12:16 am
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That's pretty rich coming from one of Blob and Rug's more insistent sockpuppets/fart catchers. I should know...when I'm not literally catching Blob's farts as his full time proctologist I'm pressed into service as a sock puppet too.
TOtime789 / March 23, 2012 at 12:59 am
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This density thing does not make sense. Looking back, when the Yonge subway was extended to Finch, the finch-young area was mostly agriculture (look it up), and was less dense than scarborough today, yet people came once it was built. Oddly, there was also a time when the Liberals/NDP was planning to build an Eglinton subway and the Cons shut it down. Now the right wants to build a subway, and the left shuts it down. Just like we regret not building that Eglinton subway, we will say the same thing about Sheppard in 20 years.
Daniel / March 23, 2012 at 03:04 am
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This debate is amazing -- people really care about this issue, and blogTO is being so nice for hosting it.
Streetcar Liz replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 06:44 am
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I shouldn't have to point this out but today's vote was LRT vs subways on SHEPPARD not the entire city until the end of time. Hopefully the next round of transit development will include the Downtown Relief SUBWAY line. The Yonge subway line is over capacity and we desparately need an alternative route into the downtown core. If you commute into the city you know that you can wait 2-3 trains before you can even get on. We also need an East-West subway line further south. Any transit expert will tell you that these lines should be our priority but because it is seen as favouring the Downtown Elites it would be political suicide - even David Miller didn't do it.

I really think the divide on this issue is between people who currently use the TTC and those who don't because if you used it regularly you would understand how desparately we need to get something built. And I'm not saying just build anything. LRT is the right choice for Sheppard with the funds we have available and the vast scope of the transit that needs to be built across the whole city. There is so much that needs to be done and so little money. We can't spend what little we have to create density, we need to serve the density that already exists.
Gline replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 07:13 am
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Oh boy, here we go again with the bullshit about LRT from a Ford Nation drone with no mind of their own. Looks like I'll have to do this again: lrt.daxack.ca

Please READ this and learn about LRT, before you open up your mouth again.
Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 08:01 am
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"What Harris did in 1995 is irrelevant, and I still don't understand why lefties bring it up all the time. It was 17 years ago, and the current political situation has absolutely nothing to do with it."

Showing historical flip-flopping is a great way to illustrate how flawed our "leaders" are. They go where the wind blows.

By the way David, what do you think of the federal Conservatives' latest attack ads on Bob Rae that go after his time in the Premier's office even longer ago? Are those OK?

Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 08:03 am
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Subways or LRTs, I don't really care what gets built.

I'd just like to know who the developers are that Ford promised the subways to, and what was in that deal. You KNOW that's what is behind all this, right?
Rodney King / March 23, 2012 at 08:03 am
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Why can't subways and LRT's just get along........
Stra / March 23, 2012 at 08:34 am
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The fact that this particular mayor was elected has everything to do with this current fiasco of a vote. I couldn't believe Ford was voted in, and with that said, building a LRT is a big, big mistake. The fact that Ford currently has no plan whatsoever around extending the subway system is the other. You don't serve a city whose population will likely double in no time with a LRT line(s). It's not forward thinking at all and this decision is all about the city's current budget. If you can't afford to build a subway, then don't do anything until you can, and figure out ways to raise funds so you can pronto. For those of you in support of the LRT, that's fine, I get it. It will indeed serve the needs of the people today and it'll be built quickly and within (hopefully) the current budget. However, imagine 20-25 years from now when you're looking at a population of 5-6 million in Toronto proper, and 10 to 12 million in the GTA. Yikes.
Tony replying to a comment from MER1978 / March 23, 2012 at 08:43 am
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The Subways do not run under capacity at all - not only is it standing room only, but it's shoulder to shoulder all the time?? Where are you from? The Subway Stations do need to a face-lift, but I don't understand what that has to do with this debate? I think a lot of people are voting against the Subways because they don't like their mayor, but I feel we have to look well beyond today and what we personally like or dislike and think about what is best for the city long-term and what is sustainable long-term - well after we are all dead. Everything that is outside in Canada all year gets worn down and becomes expensive to maintain in the long run. The capacity of a Subway train is well above what a streetcar can handle. The only reason why people are so passionate about streetcars all of a sudden is because they dislike their mayor, but this issue is bigger than him (yes, bigger than even him :).
Rick replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 09:02 am
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You're one of Ford's advisors? So thaaat's why you're so rude and belligerent.
Stra replying to a comment from Gline / March 23, 2012 at 09:09 am
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Read that site thoroughly, and you know what, everything stated there cries out for a full extension of the subway system. The fact that building a LRT vs. a subway extension is 1/4 to 1/2 of the immediate costs is a moot point. I'm looking more at load capacities, long term maintenance, long term costs, aesthetics (LRT's are not pretty despite the pretty architectural drawings), jobs, and the environmental impact. And why bring up St. Louis (have you been there? It's a hole in ground), Minneapolis, and Edmonton particularly when Toronto currently has a firm grip on being the 5th largest city in N.A. and will expand exponentially in 10 to 20 years? I think because the voting here was so close means that more debates are necessary. And Ford really has to come clean and cut the bullshit (what hands are in what pockets?) - unfortunately for him he's not trustworthy obviously - and we may just have to wait for our next mayor to have a final vote.
Hooman / March 23, 2012 at 09:10 am
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The biggest problem I had with Ford's "plan" (if you could call just yelling subway over and over a "plan") was that it would cancel all the LRT lines that were already funded and ready to build. Then we'd have to cross our fingers and hope that some money fall off a tree, then wait at least a decade for new environmental studies to be done before we could could think of a subway. Meanwhile, there are dozens of routes in Scarborough and Toronto that have higher ridership and should be getting a subway first. You don't waste money building subways in places that maybe, someday will actually have ridership for a subway lines when there are other routes in the city that are ten times more crowded and need a subway now. You don't build a 16 lane highway in Sudbury thinking that someday they'll build enough condos to justify expense. Subways when necessary, not necessarily subways!
MER1978 replying to a comment from Tony / March 23, 2012 at 09:12 am
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"The Subways do not run under capacity at all - not only is it standing room only, but it's shoulder to shoulder all the time??"

1. Actually the Sheppard line does run under capacity and has to be subsidized to the tune of $7 to $10 million every year... aka money that could be better used in beefing up other more deserving areas of the system.

2. Uhhhh when I said WILL "run well below capacity for decades if not forever" obviously I was talking about the non existent subways we're debating here.

"The Subway Stations do need to a face-lift, but I don't understand what that has to do with this debate?"

It's relevant because this notion that LRT is expensive to maintain + somehow subway is cheaper = 100% BS... this isn't set it and forget it from an infomercial... there are tons of really expensive costs involved with keeping a subway system properly maintained.

"I think a lot of people are voting against the Subways because they don't like their mayor"

Well or the mayor made the choice "fully funded LRT that we can literally start building tomorrow" vs. a subway "plan" with no money to pay for it... and in areas where density might never justify that kind of expenditure thus bleeding millions from the rest of the system for decades servicing half empty trains.

"Everything that is outside in Canada all year gets worn down and becomes expensive to maintain in the long run."

Again have you seen the subway lines that we have at the moment? It's amazing how millions of individuals are somehow able to maintain cars which much of the time only service one person but that same sort of expenditure spread over thousands of riders in a year is just crazy + wasteful?

Sometimes I'm amazed how I'm able to deal with my car when I don't have extra vehicles on hand like the TTC and mechanics on hand like the TTC... maybe I'm just a miracle worker?

"The capacity of a Subway train is well above what a streetcar can handle."

I'm sure you realize that the capacity of an LRT train is well above what a streetcar can handle + actually appropriate for the areas we're talking about with their current density AND for future projected density.

Honestly it amazes me how so many people pushing subway in the burbs consider themselves to be "conservative"... if we are going put out huge money for subway put it where the density EXISTS TODAY... that's right no guessing about whether we might be subsidizing the line forever... a downtown relief subway line would open with enough riders to subsidize other parts of the system that are nowhere near capacity... it would also reduce congestion on the existing Yonge + Bloor lines thus making the commute easier for the people using connecting modes aka the new LRT lines.
scott d replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 09:13 am
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I grew up at Sheppard and Bayview and visit family there. That intersection is the busiest one in Toronto because of the 401. In fact many believe that being next to the 401 encourages people to drive regardless of a subway.The condos that sprung up there came because of their proximity to the on ramps for the 401. Next time you are in the area watch the cars leave the condos and head for the 401. Everybody who actually lives around there understands it.
asdf / March 23, 2012 at 09:15 am
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ST CLAIR IS NOT LRT!!! repeat. ST. CLAIR IS NOT LLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT! understand the facts, david. and stop acting like you are smart.
Mayor Miller / March 23, 2012 at 09:16 am
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I think we should scrap LRT and subways and just build bike lanes!
scott d replying to a comment from TOtime789 / March 23, 2012 at 09:25 am
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"Looking back, when the Yonge subway was extended to Finch, the finch-young area was mostly agriculture (look it up)". Thats funny because in 1974 when it was built I was 12 and lived on McKee Avenue at Yonge and Finch. We went to a church on Yonge, the Willow theatre on Yonge and I loved to hang out at North Town Plazza or Towne and Country Mall up at Steeles. I dont recall seeing any farm equipment around. I dont need to look it up, pictures of the area being turned into suburbia in the late 1940's are on my Facebook page.
Grant / March 23, 2012 at 09:25 am
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" If you can't afford to build a subway, then don't do anything until you can, and figure out ways to raise funds so you can pronto"

Subways or nothing is bad idea. Toronto can afford to build a subway on Sheppard, but it would be a poor use of resources to do so. Since transit planning and government decisions are about choosing where best to spend that money, and it has been studied how much capacity Sheppard requires, and what infrastructure costs, it has been decided that an LRT is the better choice. Please have a look at ridership, and which capacity each technology is designed to move. Lots of specific locations and places, in Toronto, and around the world, don't have the need for 30,000 people per hour capacity, and never will. Lots of areas of the city only have the need for less than 3,000 people per hour. In-between, there is LRT.

In terms of growth and density- have a look at the "Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe", the Toronto Official Plan, and Metrolinx "The Big Move". Educate yourself on the policies that are geared toward future expansion of the city, and realize that certain areas of the city are "neighbourhoods" that are actually protected from significant growth.

Not everywhere in the city is going to grow. How do the planners know this? Because they have created by-laws that restrict development in those locations. If the pro Sheppard subway advocates want to grow the heck out of eastern Toronto, you're going to have to get the Provincial government to change their the planning framework, and then re-write the Toronto official plan, and change the by-laws. That's not going to happen, and without those changes - no significant growth is going to be permitted in a stable, low density, zoned as "neighbourhood" area of the city - and nor should it be directed there, I think you'd find that the people of Scarborough don't want it. It's time to call this bluff for what it is.

http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/lrtsubways2.png

http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_chapter1-5/chapters1_5_dec2010.pdf
Tony / March 23, 2012 at 09:32 am
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I get on the Subway at Leslie every week day between 7:00 am and 8:00 am and head to the Yonge line - it is at above full capacity. It is the same from 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm. If the Sheppard Line went anywhere beyond four stops it would look like the Yonge line quickly. Canada is focusing immigration on skilled professionals which means Toronto's growth will likely spike up again and we wont have the infrastructure to support it. Planning for Toronto under the premise that population will hold steady or decrease in the future is exactly the mistake what Toronto always makes, and then waste decades funding band-aid solutions.
Chris / March 23, 2012 at 09:38 am
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Building a Subway on Sheppard is like using all the money to buy 1 Ferrari instead of 10 Civics.

Oh, and when it comes to fixing this Ferrari you're going to get probed in the bum because it's going to cost an arm and a leg. (did no one read the financial analysis report?
Stra replying to a comment from asdf / March 23, 2012 at 09:39 am
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despite the fact that LRT's look different, "act" differently and have much larger load capacities than the St. Clair street cars, doesn't negate the fact that they function the exact same way. I live in the area and the street cars can be often found empty, and sometimes bottle necked up due to maintenance issues, vehicular interference, etc. The same could be said for the section of the Queensway route around High Park. The Queensway route is even particularly more interesting because of the fact that you often find the cars traveling less than 5km/h in certain areas due to continual shifts in tracks often caused by earth settling and shifting. At times, the route is even temporarily delayed/stopped by maintenance/construction to "readjust" the tracks and the ground that surrounds them.
Mark / March 23, 2012 at 09:41 am
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Congrats Council. Thanks for voting for something that will have to be replaced in 20 years. Instead of planning for the future you planned for your union buddies and the work they will have to do rebuilding and repairing this second tier transit system. But it's just for those in Scarborough so it's not like they count or anything.
Jildren replying to a comment from Mark / March 23, 2012 at 10:09 am
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Not true. when the population up there warrants it (more like 30 to 40 years)They can build a Steeles Subway or a Lawrence subway and those LRT lines can compliment it in the same way college dundas queen and king compliment the bloor line.
Ratpick replying to a comment from Jildren / March 23, 2012 at 10:28 am
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College Dundas Queen and King complement the Bloor line like Jilly's complements Riverside.
Mark / March 23, 2012 at 10:36 am
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If you're wondering why I'm always here expressing an inordinate amount of rage, it's because I have a small penis, and my chubby thighs and overhanging belly make it seem even smaller.
Jildren replying to a comment from Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 10:43 am
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Good one... But they are actually preferable to subways a lot of the time. My point is that these nincompoops going on about how they are going to have to tear those lrt lines up to build subways act like there are no other thoroughfares ups there. there are other more suitable options for a subway line when the time comes which is not as soon as they think.
SubwayvsLRT? / March 23, 2012 at 10:54 am
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I don't think anyone here knows what they want........ If we had to pick now the LRT would be the better option only because that it has a definite plan and design compared to the Subway.

If you think about it, if we did have a subway built now, there would also be a bus on service only because the subway wouldn't stop at every stop, which is redundant. Why put unnecessary service? In the long run this will cost more taxpayers money, just to hold up the bus or subway. Where as the LRT has its own designated line and the only thing that is slowing it down is traffic lights. Not to mention, only one service is running through that line.

Honestly, both of them are a bad idea right now because there isn't a full proof design, there are too many flaws with it but if you had to pick one now, I can only see the LRT working. Trust me I would love a subway more than the LRT only because Toronto's infrastructure is severely messed up and if building new modes of transportation is needed, it should be built underground.

Fortunately, I think the Sheppard line will run like the Spadina line. Only because there are a lot of room with Sheppard. St.Clair is just some bullshit excuse people use. Guys, there is a reason why Scarborough is considered the suburbs, not Downtown Toronto.

Lastly, i would love it if they do a fusion of both LRT and Subway, what i mean is that they have some areas built underground but only have the LRT running. Replace the subways in the already built sheppard line with LRTs that way people don't have to transfer from Subway to LRT. Have a smooth transition. Just an idea.
Ratpick replying to a comment from Jildren / March 23, 2012 at 11:23 am
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Well if you build the subway out along Sheppard East, the developers will fill that area with towers in a matter of months. The city will follow the subway, just look at all the 1960s-era buildings along the outer Bloor line.

And really, I think that's been the plan, and Ford's motivation, all along. He almost certainly made some promises to developers, in exchange for ???

I'm all for his subway, but it should be waaay down the list of priorities. DRL first.



David replying to a comment from BBOY_InTO / March 23, 2012 at 11:35 am
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The next mayor got to re-open it because it was a ridiculous plan for our city that needed to be amended.

Also, do you realize Rob Ford is a king in Scarborough and Etobicoe? You can't win Toronto without winning any wards in those two parts, and Rob Ford has that vote sealed up.
David replying to a comment from Jennifer / March 23, 2012 at 11:36 am
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Yes, because the 1 billion dollars we have is "free."

We have enough money to build 2-3 subway stops. Do the right thing and get the shovels in the ground.
John / March 23, 2012 at 11:36 am
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Good job council. Your short sightedness and antipathy toward the current mayor ensures our city will be destined to second tier services and transit for years to come. Feel good though, you showed the mayor who's boss. Only took screwing up the city's future to do it. Proud day in Toronto.
David replying to a comment from Jay / March 23, 2012 at 11:38 am
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I'm not sure why we're arguing this. Ask any city councilor, executive, planner, ect. and they will tell you subways offer MUCH more development than LRT.
David replying to a comment from Bob dylan / March 23, 2012 at 11:42 am
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Downtown has a subway. Let's give the people that DON'T have a subway a subway. It's especially important to build a Sheppard line now that we have an upcoming extension into Vaughn as well.

Also, there's no proof LRT destroys businesses? JUST LOOK AT ST. CLAIR! Many stores closed because they were practically inaccessible. Do we want to St. Clairize the rest of the city as well?
David replying to a comment from scott d / March 23, 2012 at 11:44 am
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Oh, so you're telling me the condos just happened to be built at the SAME TIME as the subway had nothing to do with the subway?

lololololol
David / March 23, 2012 at 11:48 am
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Also, do you guys realize we should be planning for the future?

You guys are all saying we need LRT NOW. We need to provide a better means of transit NOW. We need to give the residents of Eastern Scarborough out to Meadowvale transit NOW.

Well that's all fine and dandy but what about the future? Subways will better provide what we're seeking here (better transit) for the next 100+ years. LRT will do so for 20 years. When the inevitable happens and the LRT gets torn down in 2-3 decades I'm going to be looking back on this day shaking my head. There's no foresight and no intelligent planning in this city. The whole purpose of this vapid exercise by city councilors was to stick it to Rob Ford, not City Building. It's disgusting.
Ratpick replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 11:57 am
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"Also, there's no proof LRT destroys businesses? JUST LOOK AT ST. CLAIR! Many stores closed because they were practically inaccessible. Do we want to St. Clairize the rest of the city as well?"

Yep, construction is hard on businesses. And once construction is over, it's all good, as we'll see on St. Clair.

And by the way, subway construction is even more disruptive than LRT.

David replying to a comment from Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 11:59 am
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Oh really? Then how come St. Clair was 1 lane each way during construction but Sheppard had all lanes open for the most part?
why did i even bother??? replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 12:15 pm
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Do you really think theres no subways in Scarborough right now? Wow. Why did anyone even bother to start arguing with you? Obviously youd have to be incompetent beyond belief to think that.

Also the Sheppard line would have been built the other way, so as well you dont have a sense of direction, or where anything in the city is, for that matter.

The St Clair line is thriving now and it was some construction issues that caused trouble there. You probably dont even know what its like there, because transit runs well effortlessly.

And no, sorry but LRT will sure as hell last longer than 20 years. Maintenence costs are cheaper not to mention they run on electricity so no need to worry about diesel prices. If you really think Sheppard is going to be some busy metropolis in 100 years your are mistaken. If the city does well it will be more dense and compact, not trying to live off the suburbs. Which means as well, you know nothing about urban planning.

The last thing (for now) is that the downtown, with it's actual population, DOESNT have adequate subway support, with CityPlace, King West, Liberty Village, and other areas becoming more dense. Which reiterates, again, that you really dont know the city well if you think that Sheppard has more people in need of an extra subway than downtown.
Grant replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 12:24 pm
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David wrote: "There's no foresight and no intelligent planning in this city. The whole purpose of this vapid exercise by city councilors was to stick it to Rob Ford, not City Building. It's disgusting."

Um, read the Toronto Official Plan. The density is being directed downtown by zoning regulations and provincial policies. Proposing that billions of dollars of investment will magically appear in Scarborough is in complete contradiction to the development process. Developer money follows the planning policy guidelines. Until you understand buildings don't appear at random and magically in a few months, you're just going to continue to embarrass yourself with foolish assertions about the future.
kitkatneko replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm
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sure we want subways, how do you pay for it? or much longer do you wait when a subway plan has been needed for the last 15 years... it is 15 years late and there is no money for it.

unless you find money, you just get what you can afford.
Ratpick replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 12:44 pm
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"Oh really? Then how come St. Clair was 1 lane each way during construction but Sheppard had all lanes open for the most part? "

Thank you David, for walking right into it.

St. Clair was a mess because it sits in the middle of a dense neighbourhood. Sheppard was not as bad because it's sparsely populated and there's tons of room for ... dedicated right-of-way LRT.

If the subway construction didn't choke off Sheppard, LRT construction won't either.

Moreover, if an area is so wide open that subway construction doesn't affect traffic, maybe that area should not be priority #1 for new subways. Dig?
David / March 23, 2012 at 12:56 pm
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The mayors office allows me 4 hours a day to skim toronto message forums and spam the lrt loving pinko's. Which you all are.
Matt / March 23, 2012 at 12:58 pm
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@gonzo: I live at St. Clair and Bathurst, and travel both east and west from there on the streetcar. Amazing. Love passing the cars during rushhour. I also drive, along the street, and the fact that I have to travel a block more down the road in order to make a left turn? no problem. I think only those who drive all the time, or use St. Clair as a thoroughfare dislike the change. Guess what? the residents of the area like it, and it's our opinion that matters. If you are merely using our neighbourhood as a route to somewhere else, too bad. Find another route.
Etobicoke replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 12:59 pm
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NO!

his number are dropping here in Etobicoke, because he has not done one damn things for us since he took office. And we are so sick of him yelling about scarboro, he seems to forget where his bread is buttered.
glenn storey replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 01:08 pm
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wow. not only did you drink the koolaid, it sounds like you mixed it up as well.
Stephen replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 01:51 pm
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"On the other hand, subways are extremely convenient and people will take them instead of their cars. Not happening with LRT. "

I'd agree with you... where the density justifies it. Right now (and for the foreseeable future barring some extensive zoning changes and demolition work), there's no business case for extending a line that we already subsidize to the tune of $8 / rider into a less-dense area of the city. None.

Why do we pay so much? Because very few people who live on the Sheppard line right now is choosing to take the subway over their car. Subways aren't used for people to go to and from leisure activities; they're used for people going to and from WORK. And unless you work at the mall or NYGH, there's no reason to take the Sheppard line.

Now, extend that eastwards. How many employment hubs are there in that direction? Not many. And we already know that people merely leaving their homes and taking the Sheppard line to downtown aren't enough to sustain it.

I want more subways in this city. We desperately need a DRL. We likely need another north-south line. We just don't need a line on Sheppard, no matter what trolling arguments are parroted this week.
DJ / March 23, 2012 at 02:49 pm
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If we really are thinking 100 years down the road a subway should stretch along Sheppard to Morningside Ave. like the proposed LRT would (A future Subway to Pickering) (or a Subway that actually serves Scarborough) That would be a subway plan that makes sense because then we could transform the RT into an extention of the Bloor/Danforth line UP to the Seppard line rather it go down on a diagonal to the Scarborough Town Centre. That would be really cool right? Then again, If we ARE REALLY TALKING SUBWAY FOR THE FUTURE, won't Eglington be the one that would make the most sense to put the subway(as future generations will have to come up with a new word for "congested" when talking about that street). This subway could stretch from Pearson Airport all the way past Kennedy But to the Eglington GO station just east of McCowan Rd. If we want to serve Scarborough then bring it into Scarborough.
That would be more efficient because the entire city has an easy access to Eglington which means more people would use it.
But reality hits you and money becomes an issue. And sadly people living east of the STC won't benefit from the Subway but may have to pay for it and will still have to make do with the bus.
I however will sympathize for them. As I am a Tax payer that lives close to Islington and the Westway, been having hard times and had to sell my car to keep my house. I could tell you right now that I would love to take ANYthing other than a bus to bloor or have to take one accross Lawrence to Yonge. If im lucky I might get an Eglington LRT to Jane by the time im 65 and ready to retire. (As Im not counting my chickens with the Finch LRT dream)
So yes, my Scarborough neighbours (who live before of close to the STC) Demand your right for a subway! And hopefully my grandchildren (and those non-unionized tax payers who live east of the STC) will be smart and move over there because if they will have to pay for it they might as well be able to use it!!!
This debate of LRT vs Subway was redundant way over a year ago. I think we all can agree that a subway would be nice. But I believe the mayor has mistaken in his plan for the future.
My only question that am still not clear on conserning the LRT is that, Would our surface LRT routes bypass red lights like they do in other cities?
iSkyscraper / March 23, 2012 at 03:39 pm
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I'm just going to post this rather than respond to all of the really bad arguments being made defending Ford and his "plan".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BrsbAVNrIU
Doug replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 03:41 pm
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Toronto + York + East York = 22 wards
Etobicoke + Scarborough = 22 wards

So you can really run council with support from either area if the local councillors are willing to give it. That's probably going to change after the next redistribution. The population of Central-South Toronto has been growing faster than the rest of the city as condomania ensues.
Doc Pickles replying to a comment from :-) / March 23, 2012 at 03:45 pm
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hi, smiley! See you on the light rails!
David replying to a comment from Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 04:17 pm
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It's all good eh?

People losing their businesses, people going broke, and people getting their livelihood slashed is "all good" you say?

Oh man.
David replying to a comment from why did i even bother??? / March 23, 2012 at 04:21 pm
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There's no subways in northern Scarborough. And no, I'm not sure who's informing you, but the subways would have been built EAST into Scarborough not WEST to downsview. What are you smoking?

Also no, maintenance costs for LRT are HIGHER than subways. And another thing you got wrong: The population of Sheppard is growing every year with all the new immigrants. The suburbs are getting more and more populated.

Just because you say things over and over again doesn't make them true you pinko kook.
David replying to a comment from Grant / March 23, 2012 at 04:23 pm
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Do you realize that the city's top developers have already said they want to built skyscrapers on Sheppard if there's a subway? Or do you just choose to ignore that along with the rest of Scraborough like the other left wingers?
David replying to a comment from kitkatneko / March 23, 2012 at 04:26 pm
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You're right, we do get what we can afford. Buying something we don't have the money to pay for is disrespect to the taxpayers and horrible planning. Things is, we DO have money to pay for Sheppard. We can at least build 2-3 right now, with more to come on an incremental basis from public/private partnerships, sensible taxes and levys, and additional cash from higher levels of government. Eventually in the not-so-distant future we'd have our Sheppard subway, something much more superior to fancy streetcars.
David replying to a comment from Ratpick / March 23, 2012 at 04:28 pm
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You're blindly ignoring the facts.

Unlike when the subway was constructed, you will HAVE TO close down lanes of Sheppard. It's IMPOSSIBLE to built an LRT without doing so. To suggest that LRT construction will be the same as subway in terms of being disruptive t0 traffic is factually incorrect.
David replying to a comment from Stephen / March 23, 2012 at 04:31 pm
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You do realize that the reason Sheppard ridership is so low is because it's basically a stub? Once it's extended East to STC( major city centre) and potentially west to the Spadina line, henceforth interconnecting Sheppard with the rest of the city, ridership will go up EXPONENTIALLY. To suggest otherwise is downright foolish.
David / March 23, 2012 at 04:41 pm
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Why is it so hard to hammer away to you pinkos that subways are the answer?

Is it so hard to realize that planning for NOW instead of the future will be detrimental to our beloved city? Even now, NOBODY in Scarborough wants streetcars going down the middle of the street. It's an archaic mode of transportation. I fired off an e-mail to Mr. Mcguinty explaining this to him, and I hope he pulls funding for city council's big mistake.

The PC MPPs want subways, Mcguinty's own Liberal MPPs want subways, the Prime Minister wants subways, and the residents of Scarborough want subways. Premier Dad should do something good for once and realize a big mistake like LRT shouldn't be made just because a few whack-job councilors wanted to stick it to Mayor Ford.
Dan replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 04:58 pm
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Because it's not.

Some of us require hard evidence. Not sound bites and bs 'what might be, or might not be' in order to determine where a billion dollars should go. LRT is more expensive than subways to maintain? Post the link, I'm sure we'd all be happy to agree with you if anything you said was coming from any kind of expert consensus and not out of your ass.
marlon replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 05:16 pm
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'LRT shouldn't be made just because a few whack-job councilors wanted to stick it to Mayor Ford.'

I would to address this statement. I know LRT's make more sense, you know Subways make more sense. We aren't going to agree on that one.

I want to know why you think that councilors like Parker, Luby, Stintz, Chin Lee, Bailao, Peruzza are trying to stick it to ford. these guys are people who have voted with Ford on almost everything. lets just start with those 6 because they aren't mushy middle. they are right wing. why, in your opinion, are they trying to stick it to Ford?
literally hitting myself over the head and praying to god he's just screwing with us replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 05:20 pm
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You are so unbelievably incompetent no reasonable amount of explaining will help you.

If you look at the downtown subway
It is just one loop

I dont know where you get the idea that a subway is easier to maintain and operate than LRTs, BUT HELLO THERE ARE TUNNELS, STATIONS AND EXTRA STAFF, MORE COMPLEX MECHANICS AND FUEL. COME ON.

And no, there population in Sheppard is NOT growing faster than downtown Toronto. Read any study, any statistic or maybe you don't know how.

And again, i should reiterate (even though you don't seem to like that, yet it seems to take persistence to remotely get anything across) THAT SMART URBAN PLANNING CONSISTS OF CREATING A SMALLER, MORE DENSE CITY BY FOCUSING ON THE INNER, DOWNTOWN PARTS OF IT. NOT INVESTING IN EXPENSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE WHERE LESS PEOPLE WILL RIDE IT ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE CITY.
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What I'm saying is, by connecting Sheppard to the Spadina line and the Scarborough RT, we have an interconnected loop that would be highly beneficial to ALL residents of Toronto trying to get around.

The idea you fail to grasp is the city of Toronto has a mandate to serve ALL citizens. Not just the downtowners as you lefties would like to think.
loooooks like im the winner here, celebratory cheesecake coming my way in 5 mins replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 05:50 pm
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I hope you see the irony in what you just posted
David replying to a comment from marlon / March 23, 2012 at 06:02 pm
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First of all, Chin Lee is a retard. He would have had a subway in his ward! The people in his ward wanted subways and he voted for LRT, something his constituents HATE. That's political suicide if you ask me, and whoever goes up against him in 2014 is going to ride yesterday's to a council seat replacing Mr. Lee.

Karen Stintz is a backstabbing b*tch who has a personal vendetta against Ford.

Councilor Luby has scrapped with the Ford brothers before, we know they don't like each other. This was her trying to stick it to them.

Parker, Balio, and Perruza are just fools with no foresight.

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I hope you see the narrow-mindedness in supporting LRT.

This city was getting ridiculous under Miller, and Ford was a much-welcomed change. Unfortunately the power-hungry left on council decided they want to Millerize the city again. Just remember that Pantalone, effectively Miller's proxy in the 2010 Mayor race, got crushed in the election. It was for a reason - Miller was horrible for the city. Now councilors want to go back to that? Good luck getting re-elected!
David / March 23, 2012 at 06:19 pm
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David
Abc replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 06:59 pm
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Still digging for scraps, huh?
David / March 23, 2012 at 07:07 pm
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How are people going to take the subway to the mall now? NOOOO
OgtheDim replying to a comment from scott d / March 23, 2012 at 07:14 pm
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Per your comments about condos at Bayview.

The developers were made to buy transit passes to give to new tenants. They couldn't give the passes away and asked the city to stop the program.

Condos along transit are not guaranteed transit riders.
OgtheDim replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 07:15 pm
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You ever take that bus across that WIDE valley along Sheppard West.

At least $1 billion to go from Sheppard to Downsview.

Pipedream.
OgtheDim replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 07:21 pm
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And before you get started, I'm a centrist who lives in the burbs, takes transit every day and who despised Miller's inability to deal with fiscal reality.

I just think Ford is even worse...and a hypocrite.

DJ replying to a comment from David / March 23, 2012 at 07:37 pm
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Sir you have made it quite clear that you prefer a subway. Fine. We will use the entire 8 billion and change to build your subway to as I said earlier just to the Scarborough Town Centre. As long as your happy the rest of us in the city will be forced to suffer and pay for a line that will only benefit a small fraction of our city.
I find it so annoying for me to be considered "left" when I'm rationalizing what is best for the ENTIRE city. Also Your foul language toward Ms. Stintz is inappropriate and does not help or support your argument. As much as I may not care for her myself, you have the take into consideration that the woman has undertaken the challenge of being forced between a rock and a hard place of whchimaera mayor wants and statistics in the reality of making new transit lines. If you can't be respectful, I'm sure you have commented enough on here to get your point across.

I do however have a question for you, what do you suggest to the people that live east of the STC (north east for those actually living on Sheppard) take for their mode of transportation after the Ford's subway is built? The bus? Don't you think building a subway it would be wise to stretch it at least as far as the LRT would go? And then you could create the loop by extending the RT north.
Grant replying to a comment from OgtheDim / March 23, 2012 at 09:15 pm
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I have to agree that connecting the Yonge Subway line to Spadina extension is more likely to be done in the future by LRT across Finch than extending the Sheppard subway west. But since Finch west station isn't on a map yet, i understand how some people who lack vision can forget that it's happening. (that's sarcasm)

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/etobicoke_finch_w_lrt/pdf/map.pdf
Jonathan / March 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm
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Dear David. Please do some PROPER research about LRTs and then come back to us. Keep in mind that in order to have a successful subway, you need at least 30,000 passengers per hour. Sheppard doesn't have that much, which is why LRT is being used.
christine / March 23, 2012 at 11:44 pm
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I think before everyone puts in their 2 cents they should attempt to take the subway.. from union station to the metro zoo (which is on Sheppard). Tell me how long and painful the trip is.. then tell me what would have been better.. LRT or Subway..

David is right and most of you haven't just dismissed his comments with little reasons. Look at the big cities.. they have subways that is exact to the second.. we have a transit system that fails every morning during rush hour. How are people able to get to work to pay all the taxes the city likes to collect from us?

Also for those whom still think LRT is better than Subway.. take a drive around Sheppard & Meadowvale.. to about hwy 7.. ALL NEW HOMES.. how do these people commute to their jobs? They have to drive.. since it takes them 2+ hours to get to work.. It SHOULD NOT take 2 hours to travel the distance from one end of the city to go to the core! I had to deal with this for 2 years (until I was forces to move downtown).. why? Because I kept having to pay 2 fares since the TTC driver didn't believe I was traveling for 2 hours to get to my destination. NOW THAT IS MESSED UP!


SUBWAY - should have been build 50 years ago..


ALSO, we live in CANADA.. it SNOWS here.. and guess what! the LRT will have issues with the snow just like the SRT.. if they don't keep the snow off the tracks then what will happen?! and if a train gets stuck.. what then??
the real david replying to a comment from David / March 24, 2012 at 12:08 am
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Mr. Ford is David your nom de guerre?? Your an idiot!!!

Looking forward to some new shiny LRTs.
Marlon replying to a comment from David / March 24, 2012 at 12:28 am
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'Karen Stintz is a backstabbing b*tch who has a personal vendetta against Ford.' how is that Koolaid? He appointed her. Why would she have a vendetta? Where does the root of her vendetta come from. You just throw that out there. Back it up. Disagreeing with him doesn't make her a backstabber it makes her someone capable of independent thought.

Why is chin lee 'a retard'? which by the way is some pretty language, adds credibility for sure. He wants his ward to have transit. Funded environmentally assessed transit. Not one subway station every ten years in exchange for a bunch of tax increases. Calling the man a retard is not an argument. It's an insult. I think you will be surprised by the results of the next election neither you nor ford speak for that riding.

So Libby is just being 'scrappy' just scrappin' with the fords then? Why didn't she scrap him on any other parts of his agenda.

Parker bailao and peruzza aren't trying to 'get' ford now they just have no foresight? Thank fucking god because those 3 plus Mammoliti showing up could have made a difference. Even moesner. The list goes on. You are trying way too hard to not see sense at this point David.
Marlon replying to a comment from christine / March 24, 2012 at 12:34 am
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You are absolutely hopeless David... I mean Christine. Have you ever tried taking the ttc to Alaska? It's not even possible. What's up with that? Let's get the shovels in the ground. Oh wait, fiscal responsibility...
Marlon replying to a comment from christine / March 24, 2012 at 12:37 am
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Never mind I finished reading. When you got to the part about Lrts vs snow I realized you are a satire. Very funny.
David replying to a comment from Marlon / March 24, 2012 at 12:37 am
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Chin Lee is a retard because by voting for LRT instead of subways in his ward he effectively committed political suicide for the next election. All his opponent has to say is Mr. Lee denied you citizens the subway you desperately wanted. Easy win.
Cam / March 24, 2012 at 12:44 am
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and guess what! the LRT will have issues with the snow just like the SRT.. if they don't keep the snow off the tracks then what will happen?! and if a train gets stuck.. what then??

Christine, that's a load of shit, and you know it.
Marlon replying to a comment from David / March 24, 2012 at 01:08 am
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I don't believe they are that stupid the morons standing around asking drivers to honk with ford surely are but they aren't the majority. The lrt will be under construction the subway would still be planning to plan. I wish the election was tomorrow so we could see who is right but at the moment it is all speculation. Councilors get paid well if you believe that then do it. Go buy yourself a contonese Rosetta stone. You could be rich
Nick replying to a comment from Cam / March 24, 2012 at 01:47 am
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I take it that you actually have no idea why the SRT is vulnerable to snow.

The real reason why the RT suffers so badly during a Toronto winter is that snow builds up on the power rail which melts whenever a train passes. It then refreezes and builds up until power is no longer able to flow to the trains. The subway network suffers from the same problem, but is better able to handle snow due to trains running more frequently and the power rail being higher off the ground than the RT.

LRTs are not vulnerable to the same problem because the overhead wire flexes as a train passes which causes any ice buildup to break off.
David / March 24, 2012 at 07:29 am
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crap, sorry guys I forgot to take my meds. I get all retarded when when I don't take them.
Jonathan replying to a comment from christine / March 24, 2012 at 08:17 am
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The current streetcars do much better in the snow than buses.
Jonathan replying to a comment from christine / March 24, 2012 at 08:23 am
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Wait, now you want a subway from Hwy 7 to the Sheppard? You know, there's something similar, Viva Green. And can you please spell and type properly? It's like you're a 12 year old on the Internet. Oh wait...
David / March 24, 2012 at 10:43 am
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How dare you blame my stupidity on a mental disorder.
idontcaremygrammersucks / March 24, 2012 at 01:34 pm
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majority to Toronto wants subways. only the spoiled downtowners don't want to share the luxury of subways wit the rest of the city. i hope the downtown relieve line on gets built with z payer money from people who live ion the line. Im tired of my tax dollars going to maintain and improve downtown; while the rest of the city surfers. mega city as the worst thing ever ; only downtown got perks from it. pre 1998 downtown was a shit hole with hooker, message parlors and drug addicts, biker gangs everywhere. with some money from york, Scarborough, north york,Etobicoke downtown has improved 10x
boris moris replying to a comment from idontcaremygrammersucks / March 24, 2012 at 02:16 pm
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Yeah sure Blob...whatever you say Mr. Mayor...now you can go eff yourself.

I'm surprised you can even string a semi coherent grouping of words together. With the accumulated brain damage from all that booze and junk food, I'm surprised you can do more than just waddle around and fart all day. Having a moronic gasbag like you as mayor of Toronto reflects more on the idiots who support you than on you and your alcoholic, morbidly obese, wife beating character. SMD you bloated POS.
Arturo / March 24, 2012 at 03:38 pm
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I think the best solution would be for the people of Scarborough to have a plebiscite on whether we want LRT or not, instead of having representatives of other parts of the city deciding what is best for the people of Scarborough.
deal replying to a comment from Arturo / March 24, 2012 at 04:42 pm
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then you guys can pay for it all your ourselves and leave the rest of the city alone deal!
david / March 24, 2012 at 05:34 pm
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I think Christine and David are right on with their opinions and the rest of you are a bunch of short sighted brainless idiots.Take this to a public vote now and see what the people of Toronto want.
lol replying to a comment from david / March 24, 2012 at 05:52 pm
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only a idiot would support rob ford,
Not blind replying to a comment from Arturo / March 24, 2012 at 06:13 pm
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Concillors in wards affected by this choice voted for LRTs.

Also to the bad grammar guy, over the last three decades it's the suburbs that got the subways. Look at the Sheppard line. Look at the subways being built right now.
gricer1326 replying to a comment from David / March 25, 2012 at 01:04 am
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"LRT will congest Sheppard, close local businesses, and provide a headache for drivers. Subways will not do this. "
What local businesses? Which ones? Malls set back 30m from the streets? Because a lot of those malls are pretty scuzzy anyway and would likely close with the gentrification that LRT brings. And how, may I ask, will it provide a headache for divers? This isn't some mixed-traffic streetcar we're talking about, it's a high-performance LRT, fully separate from traffic.

"LRT will NOT provide economic development remotely close to what would happen with a subway."
Here are a couple of things to consider - the first is "Bloor-Danforth", which has had a subway line for 46 years with no substantial development. The next one is "St. Clair West" the intersection of St. Clair and Bathurst has had a subway station for 30 years and only in 2008 did any major development begin to take place. Conveniently, 2008 was when the St. Clair West - Lansdowne segment of the St. Clair streetcar was completed. Subways don't build up density on their own. There needs to be a prior catalyst, and that catalyst is LRT.

"LRT will meet its capacity in 2030, only 10-15 years after it was initially built. Subways will serve the residents of Toronto for over a hundred years."
Actually that's not true. There are many ways of increasing the capacity of an LRT line. Also the Yonge subway has been at and over capacity since the 1980s, up to the point where a parallel line needs to be built for relief.

"LRT is not convenient, NO ONE is going to take LRT instead of their cars, and only people who HAVE TO will take it. Subways ARE convenient, and people will take it instead of their cars."
That's also not even remotely true. Just look at Houston, where nearly 80% of the LRT system's riders use the LRT by choice rather than by necessity. And Houston's system is a like what transit city will be.

"LRT is something world class cities build to compliment their expansive subway systems and link lines that are not already linked by subways. Though, Toronto is building LRT as the basis of their transit. "
The first point is true but the second point is UTTERLY VACUOUS! Nobody is suggesting that we build LRT as the backbone of our transit system! This isn't Portland, or Calgary, or San Diego. We have had a heavily-used subway system for NEARLY SIX DECADES, and for six decades the subway has been the backbone of the transit system. Aside from Eglinton (which will be designed and operated much more like a subway anyway) you can't make the argument that LRT will be the foundation of the transit system without having it shot to pieces immediately.

Would you try knowing some facts?



gricer1326 replying to a comment from Frank / March 25, 2012 at 01:13 am
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Are you unaware of the fact that Buffalo's LRT system is 88% underground? In the suburbs?

Fail.
M.Heavyfoot replying to a comment from boris moris / March 25, 2012 at 04:45 am
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Excuse me, sir, but junk food does not destroy brain cells like booze and most substances do. Please stop believing the lies of the diet/exercise industry and their pushing of the so-called 'obesity plague' upon the population of this planet, and try to keep on topic.
Gline replying to a comment from gricer1326 / March 25, 2012 at 04:51 am
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I swear by the Lords of Kobol, these people need to have a study vacation of most American & European cities that have light rail, so that they can learn about it instead of spewing the bullshit that they do now. Good work on your part of enlightening the pro-Ford neocon sheeple, Gricer.
SHUTTHEHELLUP replying to a comment from David / March 25, 2012 at 01:11 pm
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Shut the hell up you whiny little brat. I have read most of th BS you post here and let me reinforce the point that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Go back to your burger flipping and shut the fuck up!
David replying to a comment from SHUTTHEHELLUP / March 25, 2012 at 01:14 pm
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I can't help it. I'm just a dumb little twat who is pretending to be smart.... I mean, since I'm on welfare and waste it all away on booze and smokes, what else am I gonna do to pass the time?
boris moris replying to a comment from M.Heavyfoot / March 25, 2012 at 03:20 pm
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If you reread my post: "With the accumulated brain damage from all that booze and junk food, I'm surprised you can do more than just waddle around and fart all day." ...you'll clearly see that I was talking about the combination of both vices causing brain damage. You've probably heard stories of people's grandparents living into their 90s and beyond, relatively clearheaded and healthy even though they indulged in the sauce in a big way. They mitigated the harmfull effects of alcohol with hard work and wholesome food plus in their formative years, pre WW2, they weren't subjected to all the toxins in the environment and the food chain that we are today.

How's this for "on topic"....Toronto's mayor is a prime example of the right wing zeitgeist that worships all things American because it excuses so much over indulgence and raises narrow mindedness to a virtue. Blob and Rug love America because down there being a bloated junk food eating moron is seen as patriotic. As someone who turns 60 this year, and cycles 100-200 kms a week while not eating dead animals or consuming anything unhealthy, I look at someone like Blob or Rug Ford and see nothing but spoiled kids with obvious signs of advanced mental illness.
TWT replying to a comment from idontcaremygrammersucks / March 25, 2012 at 03:47 pm
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right - because this all comes down to whether or not those of us that live downtown want to have subways all to ourselves.

nevermind that there's no money for subways, nevermind that the ridership does not and will not exist - nope, we want to be the ONLY ones with subways so we're giving LRT to everyone else. How did you hit the nail so squarely on the head? You've got quite the talent!!
Not fat replying to a comment from M.Heavyfoot / March 25, 2012 at 07:12 pm
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This is so unbeleivably off topic, but for someone to think the obesity plague is a hoax? Wow.
aporia replying to a comment from David / March 25, 2012 at 11:26 pm
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Have you driven along Keele lately? Notice that north of Finch it's down to one lane? That's because of subway construction. If the Spadina extension is any indication, digging subways causes as much construction chaos as LRTs. It's not an argument in favour of one or the other.

The real question is whether Sheppard has the density to support a subway. All studies of future growth in Toronto indicate that it simply doesn't. Vague talk of "skyscrapers" being built along Sheppard isn't good enough. When the TTC originally planned a subway along Sheppard projections of growth in the area were much higher then they've turned out to be, even with the subway that's now there and the growth it has spurred.

And of course, there isn't enough money to expand the subway right now. Mayor Ford didn't even support the parking tax that one of his own allies put forward in council last week, and contrary to what you suggest, there is no more money coming from the province or Ottawa. So how exactly will we found such a project?

Instead of just adding two subway stops to an underused subway, how about building something that will benefit many more Torontonians?
M.Heavyfoot replying to a comment from Not fat / March 25, 2012 at 11:38 pm
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Want some evidence? Get this book and check out why this so-called 'plague' is just a load of bullshit: http://www.amazon.com/The-Obesity-Myth-Obsession-Hazardous/dp/B0009S5AAS/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&;ie=UTF8&qid=1332732869&sr=1-1

After buying it and READING it, then come back and tell me that this war on obesity is not just anti-fat phobia?
boris moris replying to a comment from M.Heavyfoot / March 26, 2012 at 11:17 am
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"After buying it and READING it, then come back and tell me that this war on obesity is not just anti-fat phobia?"

That persecution complex looks good on you. It's so slimming.

boris moris replying to a comment from M.Heavyfoot / March 26, 2012 at 08:53 pm
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"Want some evidence?"

Add reading comprehension to the long list of weaknesses that plague the perpetually plump. This book Heavyfoot touts is a perfect example of how the bloated are always looking to blame their lack of self control on someone else or pretend it doesn't exist. The following is copied from the publisher's promo on this self serving screed:

"Is your weight hazardous to your health? According to public-health authorities, 65 percent of us are overweight. Every day, we are bombarded with dire warnings about America’s “obesity epidemic.” Close to half of the adult population is dieting, obsessed with achieving an arbitrary “ideal weight.” Yet studies show that a moderately active larger person is likely to be far healthier (and to live longer) than someone who is thin but sedentary. And contrary to what the fifty-billion-dollar-per-year weight-loss industry would have us believe medical science has not yet come up with a way to make people thin."

You'd have to be practically braindead or high on Fudgicles not to see all the unmitigated horseshit contained in that paragraph:

1) "Yet studies show that a moderately active larger person is likely to be far healthier (and to live longer) than someone who is thin but sedentary." And this proves what exactly?

2) "And contrary to what the fifty-billion-dollar-per-year weight-loss industry would have us believe medical science has not yet come up with a way to make people thin." Would that be the same "medical science" sector that only seems to believe in synthetic pharmaceuticals..the same dangerous crap that kills tens of thousands of people a year? The same crap that has dangerous and deadly side effects because it's unbalanced...much like the greasy, sugary, salty, chemical laden crap that bloated bozos like Blob Ford gobble up in prodigious amounts?





Simon Tarses replying to a comment from gigi / January 1, 2013 at 09:12 pm
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Donlands and Main, NOTHING: take a look at the street between Donlands and Victoria Park; it looks as if it was beaten with an ugly stick! Any bet that before the subway, it looked a lot better than it does now, and was a lot more vibrant, not to mention not as full of chain stores as it is now? Somebody, many years ago (I think that it was in NOW Magazine) opined that subways are 'troglodyte transit', and I don't disagree with that statement. If I were to design and plan a city from scratch, I sure as frack wouldn't be building subways, but LRT lines and streetcar lines, with buses being forbidden completely.
Tim / February 13, 2014 at 08:21 am
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Photo is a rendering done by Bombardier for the City of Detroit.
Spike replying to a comment from David / February 13, 2014 at 08:49 am
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Talking more shit about LRT, huh? Here's some info that will let you know how wrong you are; http://lrt.daxack.ca

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