Toronto city council endorses LRT for Sheppard East

LRT will congest Sheppard, close local businesses, and provide a headache for drivers. Subways will not do this.

LRT will NOT provide economic development remotely close to what would happen with a subway.

LRT will meet its capacity in 2030, only 10-15 years after it was initially built. Subways will serve the residents of Toronto for over a hundred years.

LRT is not convenient, NO ONE is going to take LRT instead of their cars, and only people who HAVE TO will take it. Subways ARE convenient, and people will take it instead of their cars.

LRT is something world class cities build to compliment their expansive subway systems and link lines that are not already linked by subways. Though, Toronto is building LRT as the basis of their transit.

The city has been St. Clairized, and we along with our children and grandchildren will all be looking back in 50 years shaking our heads. This is a black mark in the history of Toronto.

... no David, no.

Boy, the subway astroturfers didn't waste any time getting the talking points out, did they? That's the 3rd time on 3 different sites I've seen that set of untruths since the vote.

Your first point is misdirected. Of course it will congest and disrupt Sheppard; it's called construction!! And it's temporary!! And you say subways won't? The Sheppard subway construction certainly made a mess of the street, especially the station construction. You don't derail an entire transit plan because of temporary headaches.

Also, what economic development can happen with a subway that can't with a LRT? Both need construction jobs. An LRT keeps citizens at street level instead of underground - a bonus for local businesses.

I think the moaning about the "destroyed St. Clair Avenue" has been proven wrong. Everybody's okay, and any business that was 'destroyed' was probably on it's way out anyway.

@Nick: Well said. David might want to wait in his car until subways are available. The rest of us want LRTs. Good decision, Council.

David .... You are a delusional as chubby boy Ford.

The main issue I have with a Sheppard LRT is that it will be incredibly annoying to have to take a four-stop subway from Sheppard-Yonge and then transfer to an LRT (and the opposite as well.) I wish that the transition between the two modes of transportation could be easier.

So who thinks RoFo is going to get falling down, pants pissing, blind drunk tonight?

yay now my transit has to stop for every single red light... sure i will take the transit that takes the exact same time to get me down town ... f*cking brilliant

LRT is convenient? HAHA!

NOBODY is going to take LRT because it's "convenient." People are going to take it because they don't have cars and it's (slightly) better than a bus. On the other hand, subways are extremely convenient and people will take them instead of their cars. Not happening with LRT.

Cue the 911 recording tomorrow in the press...

Bawww what a sad day, saving billions of dollars by putting something on the pavement instead of under the ground.

Commuters seem to make due right now with neither, so buck up.

25 LRT stops for people to reach businesses across Scarborough along Sheppard vs. a maximum of 8 subway stops to STC? I think the LRT will do much more to support all sorts of businesses across Scarborough than an underground tube to the mall would have. People from other parts of the city will be able to conveniently see what is available, and residents who live well east of the Town Centre will finally have a clean, reliable, high-capacity method of reaching downtown, along with the Eglinton LRT. Ford's stubway wouldn't even reach into Scarborough if his magic beans funding fantasy failed to materialize, leaving residents stuck on gas-guzzling, exhaust-spewing buses stuck behind ever-more cars.

As businesses and higher-density housing coalesce around the LRT routes, the tax base will improve, making more funding available for city services, and eventually a full subway if it comes to that - just like Yonge and Bloor-Danforth.

I lived along St. Clair before the ROW was installed. It was pretty grim and crumbling. The street has visibly improved since construction finished. New businesses are popping up, new residential and office construction is taking place.

This is a wonderful day. Finally, council is on record supporting badly-needed transit expansion and recognizes the need to get senior levels of government back into the game. Realistic expansion can be done *now*, and even the tax-averse wing of council realizes that infrastructure funding doesn't drop from the sky. Scarborough will have two new rapid transit lines within the decade; any new funding can go toward other parts of the city that desperately need expansion.

The only losers here are people who stubbornly clung to unfunded slogans and falsehoods perpretrated by people who don't care about mass transit. Ford should have been looking into funding sources for his subway the moment he declared Transit Coty dead, not one week before the meeting that decided everything. Had he shown some forethought and planning, we may never have had to go through multiple contentious council meetings. Ford has no one to blame but himself, and Sheppard subway supporters need to recognize where the fault lies - not with council, which made the most reasonable and effective decisions possible given the economic and political realities, but with a mayor who treated slogans as policy and bluster as planning.

Having lived at Yonge and St. Clair and being a transit user - I have to say that the streetcar on St. Clair is pretty to a disaster.

If you're on the streetcar, it's awesome. You zip along st. clair and are at the station in no time. But if you're walking and trying to cross the road, if you're driving, trying to get north of St. Clair from anything other than a main road or if you're (god forbid) trying to turn left...it's a gong show.

Get as much of this stuff underground as possible. Subways, underground LRT (Boston has that) - I don't care get it off the street, make it easy and make it awesome.


So much of this is driven by dollars. Screw the dollars, let's do what's right.

Well David, if you're sad about the results, then blame the Mayor. He was the one who unilaterally "killed" Transit City in favour of his pipe dream for a Sheppard subway expansion, and then, satisfied with himself, didn't bother to "ratify" that decision at Council back when he had the almost unchallenged control of Council (and despite that being a condition of the MOU he signed with the Province). He then failed, during the ensuing period to even bother trying to build a case to support the extension of the Sheppard Subway.

His point man on the Sheppard file, Gordon Chong, produced a report that suggested (however dubiously) it could be done, provided Ford was willing to consider using various "revenue tools" to raise the money. Ford refused, and continued on with his belief that the magical money fairy would rain funding from the sky to pay for it. He continued to sound the horn for subways, but refused to consider any reasonable plan to pay for it.

When even his allies on Council from Scarborough, realizing that his "plan" was going to fail, tried, in the last couple of days, to get him to consider even modest measures to raise revenues, which may have been able to sway enough votes to his side - he refused again.

Council was essentially left with 2 choices:

-an LRT line, that, while perhaps not ideal, would be fully-funded, would serve a wider swath of the City, and based on reasonable projections of future population growth in those areas, was at least supportable, or


-extending the Sheppard subway 2 stops, at most, with no plan to pay for that construction, or any future subway growth, and absolutely no willingess to consider any options to use revenue tools to raise the funds to pay for it. Instead, the "plan" was to build it and hope the money will come. - ironically, the very thing that a true conservative would be horrified to hear. Oh and this Sheppard extension would barely do much for folks in Scarborough, unless you happened to leave somewhere near Sheppared and Victoria Park (I guesss it would get you to Johnny's hamburgers more easily), let alone anywhere in the City.

Despite all the rhetoric, misinformation, half-truths and flat out lies, mostly from the Ford side of the debate, that, and the risk of losing the Provincial money already committed if a decision wasn't made soon, was the decision facing Council. Under the circumstances, it was a more than reasonable result.

I know Ford apologists will not want to hear this, but at the end of the day, Ford is the reason the subway side lost. Simple as that. Not because anyone is out to get him, but because he he's too stupid, ignorant and arrogant to lead Council on this file. He thought he could just bully Councillors into voting with him, instead of doing the work to show it could be done, and refusing to open his mind to options that would enable him to get to the result he wanted (i.e. a funded Sheppard subway plan). That, David, is poor leadership, no matter how you look at it.

If the "subway" side had a different advocate, the vote may very well have turned out differently. Ford is truly his own worst enemy now.

Oh yeah, the LRT will get stuck in all the snow we get during the winter. Hey, remember how much snow we had to shovel this winter. Man oh man.

Pull your head out of your arse and take a moment to look at all the other MAJOR WORLD CITIES that use LRT with great success, then come back to us.

Kudos Chris, kudos.

What we have on St. Clair is NOT an LRT. It's streetcars. LRT trains are bigger, stops are further apart, and travel faster. It's more similar to an above-ground subway.

St. Clair II

In that photo of the Bombardier train, where are the overhead wires?

It's a mock-up, you troll.

You do realize council denied Ford the right to make a plan right?

Follow me here.

The Chong report was a preliminary report on the feasibility of a subway and the potential revenue tools that can be used. It was not a plan - that was to come after the Chong report. Problem is city council rushed a surprise vote last month purposely so that they could vote without a Ford plan. In addition, councilors voted today to defer the Subway/LRT vote to the Fall but that didn't pass. They denied him the time to make one.

It was not that Ford who had no plan, it was that city councilors did not give him the time to make a plan. He was supposed to use the Chong report to help with an overall plan, but he couldn't thanks to council.

I think it's a myth that subways always create economic development. Take a look at the crappy, derelict stretch of Danforth between Donlands and Main. Supposedly it was much more vibrant before they buried transit there.

Yes, Condos were built there because it's DOWNTOWN.

I lived on Sheppard, I should know. The ONLY reason those 25-30 condos were built in the last 12 years is because of the subway. Anyone that says otherwise is wrong.

hoping renata is wearing her helmet!

LRTS are awesome!! This is a very good day for Scarborough/Sheppard. Something very good, instead of absolutely nothing.

David, Ford had 17 months to make plans. He didn't bother even to start until February. Then he tried to delay the vote past the March 31 deadline in order to simply kill the plans without a vote.

Council saw his bet and raised it with concerted action and an actual plan of their own. Ford could have come out of this a winner and instead he came out a whiner.

sparrow replying to a comment from David / MARCH 22, 2012 AT 04:12 PM
"David I'm confused there are dozens of condos in liberty village and along king street ... but I can't seem to find the subway that has caused them all to be built. I see a streetcar, but no subway."


Oh, man, David. You're dumb! If you live in Liberty Village & King W, you're within walking distance of pretty much anything. And, even if you take the street car to the downtown core, it only takes 15 min. Even if you added a subway in this location, there wouldn't be much added benefit.

Contrast that with Scarborough where nothing is within walking distance. You either take your car or the TTC. If you want to go downtown, it takes 1.5 hours. LRT isn't going to do much to reduce the commute, and you still have to wait outside in the freezing cold.

David, why don't you channel your hot air into your arms so that they can wield a shovel and start digging.

He didn't bother to start until February? No.

Ford started when he appointed Gordon Chong to draw up a report on the feasibility of the Sheppard subway. The plan was to made following the completion of the report. Council did a surprise attack before Ford had enough time to make a plan. It really is a shame because they denied the residents of Toronto a nice new subway.

Yes, reply to my comment without actually addressing what I said why don't you.

To suggest that LRT is just as attractive to developers as subways is so stupid.

Surprise attack?

So you're saying that Ford is so out of touch that the FACT that the Metrolinx MOU expires at the end of March is a surprise?

Why are you defending him, then?

Lets be real here:

TORONTO NEEDS MORE SUBWAYS

But what the hell kind of urban planning would get a subway on a street with little density at all? That's just so stupid. Toronto needs a Downtown Relief Line, nit a Sheppard Subway extention. Growth should be encouraged closer to the city centre. - its better for the environment, stimulates growth better especially for the local economy, its cheaper to run a dense, compact city, etc etc. The benefits are endless. It is NOT the answer to build a subway so far off the city centre and it is NOT the answer to bring such expensive and expansive infrasctructure in an area that doesnt need it.

Oh David, I've long finished addressing your facts. I'm just sticking around to wind you up. #MoreFunThanYouTube

I've spent time in Calgary and they're light wail system works for that small city and a small concentrated core. Toronto is massively spread out...like most major cities in the world (Tokyo, NYC). We need subways. It's the only long term solution for a world class city with our population.

I support David's position that subways are better for the city.

Everyone else doesn't have a clue what the people of Scarborough go through in terms of their daily commute.

I respectfully disagree. Ford was given ample opportunity to come up with a plan. Chong's report while "preliminary" had all of the key ingredients in place for Ford to advance an alternate plan. The fact that Ford simply refused to consider ANY of the "revenue tools" laid out in Chong's plan pretty much ensured that Chong's final report would have been nothing more than a formality. Ford was fine with the recommendation, but unwilling to consider any of the options available to make it happen. What would more time have changed?

You can't consider his adovocacy of subways without considering the cost matter. Remember, this is the Mayor who claimed there was billions of hidden waste contained in the City budget, only to hire consultants who found nothing of the sort. ford is also the guy who claimed that private money would fully fund any proposed expansion of the Sheppard subway, but of course, had nothing to back this up. Again, I turn to Chong's report, which optimistically suggested that maybe 60% of teh proposed expansion might be funded through development charges, provided you can find developers willing to pay them.

Remember, Ford met with those developers, and claimed they all supported subways but neglected to mention to they had no desire to pay for them.

If it makes you feel better to blame Council, then that's your right, but Ford has had ample opportunity to at least show a willingness to consider other options (i.e. revenue tools) and he has consistently refused to do so. How do you expect Councillors in this climate to vote in favour of an infracture project that will cost billions of dollars, without anything resembling a plan to fund it?

Instead of spending his time formulating a plan to persuade Councillors to his point of view, he instead spent it marching up and down Scarborough screaming that people wanted subways (while conveniently ignoring the issue of how to pay for them), making patently false statements about LRTs (and his down Sheppared expansion plans, for that matter) and disparaging anyone who had a different point of view than his. Despite the efforts of others, including many of his allies, he wouldn't even consider any options to pay for it, that might've helped him win votes. Even Stintz way back when was trying to formulate a plan with other Councillors that would give him subway expansion in Scarborough without completely gutting Transit City - once again, he refused to consider it.

So to address your point - more time wouldn't have made any difference. If anything, he probably would've lost more voters.

Ford has been a fundamental failure as Mayor because he is ill-equipped to lead. He's in over his head, and hopefully the voters of this City will realize that come the next election.

I think we now need to focus our efforts on creating a model of sustainable funding for transit expansion so that we're not in this situation of waiting for a provincial handout to do anything. If Ford wants to show he's a real leader, that's where he'll put his efforts. After all, Transit City should not be the end of things, in terms of transit expansion - we can't just expand in 20 year spurts. It has to be an ongoing process.

David, have you ever been to Liberty Village? If so, please point me to the mystery subway station within Liberty Village that was the root cause of all the condos being built there.

The vote is very disappointing. We have elected for LRT and now have the same system as Buffalo NY, a city a fraction of the size of Toronto. Sad day for our incredible city.

Would you prefer nothing?

How's that for sad?

To all of the subway supporters, you can still build a subway! Just find the money to pay for it. Before the vote the main problem with the Sheppard subway was there was no money to pay for it. After the vote the main problem is there is still no money to pay for it. The vote changed nothing. If you magically find a few billion dollars, go ahead and build your subway.

Hopefully all the subway supporters realize that Sheppard has nowhere near the density required for a subway, and it is not projected to have that density for decades. So even if you did magically find the money for the subway, it would still operate at a loss for at least the next few decades. So remember that your taxes would have to go up to pay to keep it operating. By the time it has the density required for a subway we will probably have a new form of mass transit anyway. 40 to 50 years is a very long time in terms of technology.

Yes Adam, let's ignore the fact that Stintz rushed a surprise vote before the Chong report was even delivered.

Hey Rug....washhh the number for 911? I'm gonna have all those hippie shtreet car homosh locked up. I'm the feckin MAYOR fer Chrysssht shake. Hey Mammo...when are youse gonna shtop crawlin up my ash like a drunk bozo? While you're in there shee if Rug will crawl out and pour me another drinky poo.

How could the Chong report not have been delivered if all the details of it were released weeks ago? Also, the entire report is included as one of the reference docs used to come up with the expert panel judgement.

I don't think I am going to be able to convince you with mere facts anyway, but you do know that the Chong report called for extra taxes (in the form of parking fees, road tolls, property tax increase, etc.) to fund the subway? Also, it required development fees, and no developer was willing to pay them.

I think the fundamental difference between Ford supporters and everyone else is that Ford supporters don't use transit. They wanted a subway or nothing because both options are fine to them. Everyone that actually uses transit though wanted something, so a subway that had no funding and was never going to be built was much worse than an LRT for the rest of us.

Just wanted to say that David duking it out to the bitter end in the comment boards here is entertaining as hell!

Oh also, if Toronto ever wants to be a world-class city, the transit system needs an entire overhaul.

Carry on, David.

Again, the notion that Ford wasted months neglecting to make a subway plan is false. The Chong report was the beginning of that plan. After the report came out city staff would have spend months drawing up a specific and detailed plan for Sheppard. Problem is that Stintz she-devil ruined the plan - and Toronto.

How about RoFo cancelling Transit City (whoops) without a vote? Talk about a bum rush ...

Are you the real doc pickles? If yes, hi

The Warden and Kennedy Stations on the Bloor-Danforth Line have been in place since 1968. Is there any evidence that they have led to any significant economic development in Scarborough?

David, what about Malvern? They were to be missed with Rob Ford's route. Don't you think if anyone needed transit in North Scarborough it's the people of Malvern? A slightly more dense area than where the route was supposed to go.

I praise the 24 councillors for making a smart decision.

Mr Ford is becoming a lame-duck mayor that he might as well sit down and be quiet. He's a barrier to progress

Doug Ford, stop posting under false names already. You lost. Intelligence and common sense won. Move back to Chicago.

The gravy train hath been stopped!!

Let Ford concentrate on issues that he is capable at making some leeway (if only completely marginal leeway) like dieting. Council will run itself, and before you know it, the next 3 years will come and gone, Ford will have lost 10-12 pounds maybe, and we'll have a new mayor. Win-win.

WE'VE GOT SUBWAY TROLLS in Toronto!

You people just don't get it. Many people's animus towards Mayor Ford has clouded their judgment. It's not just that subways are better than LRTs(and they are), it's that LRTs do positive harm to the street. Subways are better than LRTs simply because their right of way does not obstruct any existing traffic(except during construction). Streetcars(without right of way) are counter-intuitively better than LRTs. Why? Because ordinary people can use the space that the streetcar travels on when it's not there. The LRT won't allow people to use that space, so in other words it's going to be dead space except when the LRT is on it. The distance from Fairview mall to STC is about 8 km, that's 8 linear km that will be dead space most of the time. But you may say to me, that's the point, because of the dead space, the LRT, itself, is going to go faster. This is obviously true but this going to come at a cost of congestion for everyone else. You just have to use common sense on this. A Sheppard-Subway was win-win for users of municipal transit and motorists, a Sheppard LRT is a marginal win for municipal transit users(because it won't be that fast) and is a dead loss for motorists. I think many of the planners are aware of this fact, instead of proposing something that involves voluntary cooperation, they wanted to literally construct a physical impediment to driving.

I'm fairly sure the plan keeps the amount of lanes in tact for most (or not all) of the route no? Help me out here people.

Only HOV lanes reduced perhaps. I don't actually know at this time.

wahoooo david is our village idiot entertainment tonight, good times.

I also think Doug Ford is hot topless.

Edmonton and Calgary have had LRT lines for over 30 years and they work just fine with a population density and car culture comparable to Scarborough. The inconvenience they put on drivers is minimal. I would know because I rode them and drove around them regularly for the last decade before moving here. Anyone who speaks out against an LRT line has never had any experience with them and just blowing hot air for the sake of it. This is such a nonissue it is laughable. I'm pretty sure there's more pressing matters in Scarborough to get worked up over than the introduction of usable god damned transit. Moronto at it's best.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Calgary politics and Calgary transportation. What I do know is Calgary is much smaller than Toronto and LRT may just be sufficient for Calgary (a much smaller city).

Toronto is different from Calgary, and LRT is not right for Toronto. I can not believe the idiocy that went on in council today. This is 2012, not 1912! Why we are building glorified streetcars in the year 2012 is beyond me. This an archaic mode of transportation that's going to RUIN Scarborough. The residents said they don't want an LRT and would rather have nothing. Of course, the nanny state left wingers wouldn't listen.

What a shame.

fing whiner, shut up. Democracy was in action today. Don't like it, move to markham.

Democracy was not in action. Stintz and her ilk highjecked the democratic will of the people of Scarborough, in order to force through their vision. Get real.

Contrary to your believe democracy did not win today.

-The Mayor wants subeays
-TTC GM Andy Byford wants subways
-The 6 Scarborough LIBERAL MPPs want subways
-ALL the PC MPPs want subways
-The PRIME MINISTER wants subways

And most importantly, the taxpaying citizens of Toronto want subways.

Democracy may have won on council, but when you look at it as a whole, the people who want subways FAR outweigh the people want LRT. The citizens (and higher level of government) have spoken.

I am going to defend David on this point. Let me just say that you are missing a key point of logic.

Just because subways are not affordable at the present time does not make LRTs into a good thing. The two issues are *independent*. The two issues are being linked because of political subterfuge. Don't think that there aren't special interests at work, Transit City already says that Bombardier would be the exclusive monopoly provider of LRT cars.

I think for instance that express buses would be much better than LRTs, why have something that creates congestion for everyone else when you can have buses which don't require hundreds of millions of infrastructure to make work.

You're right, I just noticed that. The fact remains that the whole line will exist to block people from the street to businesses on either side.

People buy condos on Sheppard because they're near the 401 and DVP, not the subway.
I'm sure Bayview Village doesn't hurt either. To suggest that the ONLY reason condos
exist on Sheppard is because of the subway is laughable.

Regarding this whole debate - The conflict is over the philosophy of what a "street" is. A more nuanced view of the world these days doesn't treat our urban space as a conduit. It's not as Rob Ford said today about getting from A to B, people should really start thinking about the quality of the experience getting there. That's way I ride my bike. I care about what it's like to interact with the city, and what kind of place I want to live. LRT is the right choice because it's better for the quality of the street life, and that's what good cities have. Great cities aren't about zooming past them in your car. If you hate cities, maybe there is somewhere else you should live. Those of us who love cities are trying to make them more liveable.

Subways will be a money loser for decades, maybe even a century ore more. There will NOT be enough growth on Sheppard to support it.
There is a TON of space along Sheppard - for the most part - to widen the road to accommodate the LRT. They're already working just east of Kennedy, and can do that now, while putting the underpass in.
Cost wise, the only way subways would have worked, was if the council (and we know this would never happen...) would have ALL taken pay cuts ... cut the Mayor's salary down to $99,000, and cut councilors down to $59,000.
Cut the TTC wages for collectors, and maintenance by 20% - no collector needs $25+/hr. Cut outside and inside workers wages. Reduce office budgets for Councillors by $10,000 and we MAY be able to afford the subway by 2030.

Hey David,

You forgot Tim Hudak wants subways!

Forget under Harris they wasted $100-million cancelling and the Eglinton-West Subway Project. Actually spending money filling up a hole! But he sure wants subways now.

The thing is, everyone would take subways if offered. But the transit plan voted on today is best for all Torontonians. Not just the people in Scarberia (Which I commute to everyday).

Why do you hate the rest of the city? You know, the people that won't get a decent transit option for probably decades after a mess like Ford wanted to pass...

Deal with it, it's done.

Ahem, two Scarborough councillors voted for the LRT, Aurturo.

at this point i dont even care. just build something already

Alex. You are a very smart man! Just ignore all that hot air.. Sheppard subway carrying only 1/2 expected capacity. And the St. Clair West corridor is infinitely more welcoming, walkable, accessible and community-building than the Sheppard East corridor. It's a very liveable, viable neighourhood. But, the Sheppard corridor IS very attractive - to developers.

OH MY GOD!!! WE DONT KNOW WHAT TOO SAY!!!!!!!1 WE HATE FACT'S!!!! STUFF THAT IS RESEARCHED IS SO ANNOYING!!!! THE REAL TRUTH IS IN OUR GUT!!!! AND WE ALL HAVE REALLY HUGE GUTS!! OBVIOUSLEY!! LISTEN THE PEOPLE WANT SUBWAY'S! THATS WHAT WE ALLWAYS SAY BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE MAYBE ITS TRUE?!??!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS A LRT TRAIN??!?!?!!!! WE HATE STREETCAR'S!!!!! IF ANYBODY VOTE'S THE WRONG WAY WE ARE GETTING IN OUR DADS SUV'S AND GIVING OUR MIDDLE FINGER'S TO MOMS AND LITTLE KiDS!!!! btw DID WE MENTION ITS HARD TO TYPE WHILE CRYING? OH BABY JEBUS PLEASE HELP OUR MASTERS AND MAMA LEETIE AND SUE ANNE LEVIS. IMAGRINTS TOOK OUR JOB'S SO WE ALLWAYS POST HERE AND YELL. SIGNED, DAVID, JAY, ETC.

If the subway was the cause of all those condos on Sheppard i'd rather not have them, have you seen the BOAT??? Wait, you said you lived at Bayview and Sheppard, did you live in the boat? Did you wake up in the morning and pretend you were leaving port when you got on the subway?

It's about time we finally voted to get LRTs on Sheppard. The existing subway there is a massive fail (Thanks, Mel!). It doesn't even stop at Ikea!

I suggest that in the future, we remove the subway tracks in the Sheppard tunnels and replace them with LRT so that we can have one seamless ride all the way from Scarborough to Downsview. That would be world-class and would befit the density on Sheppard (though judging from David's comments, perhaps I'm underestimating the density on Sheppard). Then we can use the current Sheppard cars on the downtown relief line.

The most unintentionally hilarious part of this debate is the people who criticize the living-within-their-means LRT crowd as not having a vision for and not being willing to invest in the future.

Ahem. Since you seem to forget because it was all of 15 months ago, Rob Ford was elected mayor on exactly the platform of living within our means and not having a vision for the future besides saving money today. That was his vision. Period. It was David Miller, George Smitherman, Joe Pantalone who wanted to invest in the future, but Rob Ford would have none of it. Actually, Miller, Smitherman, and Pantalone also wanted to live within our means, but with an eye for the future. Ford and no eye for anything except stopping the "gravy train". Now he wants to build one, with no eye toward the bottom line, and you all defend him. Hilarious.

LRTs aren't even close to subways in terms of attractiveness to developers. Not even close, and that's an indisputable fact rather than a matter of opinion.

Scarborough has a subway.

Oh, and another thing - since when does condo development require subways? I grew up in Thornhill, and in the past decade alone several new condos have gone up near the Promenade, a mall not served by *any* form of rapid transit apart from buses. Similarly with development along King West or Queen - areas served by - gasp!! - streetcars!!

I should add, David, that you might have a different perspective had you ever had the experience of waiting for a Bayview bus in the November rain after transferring off the pointless stubway. I don't fucking care about Rob Ford's claims about what the "People" want. I know I don't want a mayor and "administration" who actually tried to cut TTC operating funding.

Bombardier is already the monopoly provider of subway cars... what's your point?

Buses have less capacity and actually take up more space than any LRV. And in contrast to rail, they are incredibly bumpy and uncomfortable.

Where was some of this passion for public transit when the TTC operating budget was being cut in November?

BOOM!!! I love that idea. At least someone is thinking.

I respectfully disagree with your points about LRT vs Subways but thank you for at least having a sense of humour! To me this issue is not about pitting LRT against subways but rather a shift in thinking at the government level away from pet projects to a planning principle based model. Mode should be decided using density projections, capacity, available funding etc. Resident wants should be factored into the equation but should not be the sole determination. As I have a background in transportation planning, I find the level of debate on this issue has been absurd. Just my two cents.

Also, following up on your comment regarding development with LRT vs Subway. Studies and reality have shown that both LRT and Subway support new developments. The difference being Subways spur nodal development (i.e. at the stations) whereas LRT will have lower density development along the entire length of the line. There are exceptions though, the east end of the Bloor Danforth line has not seen the same level of development that Sheppard has experienced as of late. As for St. Clair, if a business cannot survive construction, it more than likely would have failed anyway. We have to look at the new developments that have sprung up in their place to get an accurate picture of how the right of way impacted development. But that's not to say that all new development on St. Clair is due to the right of way. Starting to ramble, could go on but won't.

"As I have a background in transportation planning, I find the level of debate on this issue has been absurd. Just my two cents."

Hi Jay,
Blob and Rug asked me to tell you your cheque for 2 cents is waiting to be picked up. They know you had your heart set on something you believed was commensurate with your experience as a noted fart catcher but after this fiasco you should be thankful that's all your getting from these guys. They're hot enough to hump. As their proctologist I can tell you these two aholes have been reamed to the max and they've reached their limit. You'd be well advised to have someone pick up your pay unless you'd like Rug to introduce you to his brother's tunnel where "the sun don't shine".

"The LRT will cost Toronto tax payers more in the long run because it more expensive to maintain in our climate"

... care to explain how LRT will be more expensive to maintain?

The TTC report that Ford requested then suppressed said we're paying $250 million per year maintaining our existing subway lines.

Have you been in any of the existing subway stations lately? A rather large number are practically falling apart... many don't have proper accessibility for wheelchairs + strollers... oh and the ones which do have elevators don't have them working much of the time... or maybe that's what you mean by cheap... build it and then just let it fall apart.

On top of all of that... add the millions per year subsidizing subway that will run well below capacity for decades if not forever... again cheap?

Do you remember in Independence day when the guy survived the aliens because he was in the subway? I'm pretty sure that's worth it to add a tiny amount of underground subway. I mean, think of the people in scarborough. They're people too. ALL THE PEOPLE IN TORONTO WANT SCARBOROUGH TO BE SAVED! I definitely want my tax dollars to go to a subway for scarborough.

Money? Didn't you hear me?? ALIEN ATTACK people!! A street car isn't going to protect you from aliens… Subways and Will Smith are!

Okay, I admit it I am one of Mayor Fords Advisor's. He is a great man and i enjoy working for him. His ideas and passion will make this city into a world class city.

London, UK has considerably more population than the entire province of Ontario. It was a major metropolis long before cars were invented while Toronto has largely been developed around accomodating cars and trucks. Bad comparison.

"Anyways, what is this "Why do you hate the rest of the city?" hogwash? Do you mean the rest of the city that already has transit?"

Maybe they're talking about the areas of the city which have the density to pack larger vehicles during rush hour TODAY aka Queen + King... you know where there is density NOW to support subway vs. areas that have nothing close to that sort of ridership today and probably never will... but don't worry guys... we have a magical money tree... blow tens of millions per year subsidizing half empty trains... no problem... we obviously don't have anything better to spend our money on... infuriating.

Great, this will shave 10 minutes off of my commute, too bad my LRT stop will be a 20 minute walk from home.

You're right. We don't have the money, so let's wait. Hey Canada, can you please deposit that 8 billion dollars into my ING account so I can build something when the interest comes up with the extra little bit I need to build this inch long subway? Screw transit. Bicycles for everyone!

That's pretty rich coming from one of Blob and Rug's more insistent sockpuppets/fart catchers. I should know...when I'm not literally catching Blob's farts as his full time proctologist I'm pressed into service as a sock puppet too.

This debate is amazing -- people really care about this issue, and blogTO is being so nice for hosting it.

Oh boy, here we go again with the bullshit about LRT from a Ford Nation drone with no mind of their own. Looks like I'll have to do this again: lrt.daxack.ca

Please READ this and learn about LRT, before you open up your mouth again.

Subways or LRTs, I don't really care what gets built.

I'd just like to know who the developers are that Ford promised the subways to, and what was in that deal. You KNOW that's what is behind all this, right?

The fact that this particular mayor was elected has everything to do with this current fiasco of a vote. I couldn't believe Ford was voted in, and with that said, building a LRT is a big, big mistake. The fact that Ford currently has no plan whatsoever around extending the subway system is the other. You don't serve a city whose population will likely double in no time with a LRT line(s). It's not forward thinking at all and this decision is all about the city's current budget. If you can't afford to build a subway, then don't do anything until you can, and figure out ways to raise funds so you can pronto. For those of you in support of the LRT, that's fine, I get it. It will indeed serve the needs of the people today and it'll be built quickly and within (hopefully) the current budget. However, imagine 20-25 years from now when you're looking at a population of 5-6 million in Toronto proper, and 10 to 12 million in the GTA. Yikes.

You're one of Ford's advisors? So thaaat's why you're so rude and belligerent.

The biggest problem I had with Ford's "plan" (if you could call just yelling subway over and over a "plan") was that it would cancel all the LRT lines that were already funded and ready to build. Then we'd have to cross our fingers and hope that some money fall off a tree, then wait at least a decade for new environmental studies to be done before we could could think of a subway. Meanwhile, there are dozens of routes in Scarborough and Toronto that have higher ridership and should be getting a subway first. You don't waste money building subways in places that maybe, someday will actually have ridership for a subway lines when there are other routes in the city that are ten times more crowded and need a subway now. You don't build a 16 lane highway in Sudbury thinking that someday they'll build enough condos to justify expense. Subways when necessary, not necessarily subways!

I grew up at Sheppard and Bayview and visit family there. That intersection is the busiest one in Toronto because of the 401. In fact many believe that being next to the 401 encourages people to drive regardless of a subway.The condos that sprung up there came because of their proximity to the on ramps for the 401. Next time you are in the area watch the cars leave the condos and head for the 401. Everybody who actually lives around there understands it.

I think we should scrap LRT and subways and just build bike lanes!

" If you can't afford to build a subway, then don't do anything until you can, and figure out ways to raise funds so you can pronto"

Subways or nothing is bad idea. Toronto can afford to build a subway on Sheppard, but it would be a poor use of resources to do so. Since transit planning and government decisions are about choosing where best to spend that money, and it has been studied how much capacity Sheppard requires, and what infrastructure costs, it has been decided that an LRT is the better choice. Please have a look at ridership, and which capacity each technology is designed to move. Lots of specific locations and places, in Toronto, and around the world, don't have the need for 30,000 people per hour capacity, and never will. Lots of areas of the city only have the need for less than 3,000 people per hour. In-between, there is LRT.

In terms of growth and density- have a look at the "Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe", the Toronto Official Plan, and Metrolinx "The Big Move". Educate yourself on the policies that are geared toward future expansion of the city, and realize that certain areas of the city are "neighbourhoods" that are actually protected from significant growth.

Not everywhere in the city is going to grow. How do the planners know this? Because they have created by-laws that restrict development in those locations. If the pro Sheppard subway advocates want to grow the heck out of eastern Toronto, you're going to have to get the Provincial government to change their the planning framework, and then re-write the Toronto official plan, and change the by-laws. That's not going to happen, and without those changes - no significant growth is going to be permitted in a stable, low density, zoned as "neighbourhood" area of the city - and nor should it be directed there, I think you'd find that the people of Scarborough don't want it. It's time to call this bluff for what it is.

http://fordfortoronto.mattelliott.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/lrtsubways2.png

http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_chapter1-5/chapters1_5_dec2010.pdf

Building a Subway on Sheppard is like using all the money to buy 1 Ferrari instead of 10 Civics.

Oh, and when it comes to fixing this Ferrari you're going to get probed in the bum because it's going to cost an arm and a leg. (did no one read the financial analysis report?

Congrats Council. Thanks for voting for something that will have to be replaced in 20 years. Instead of planning for the future you planned for your union buddies and the work they will have to do rebuilding and repairing this second tier transit system. But it's just for those in Scarborough so it's not like they count or anything.

Not true. when the population up there warrants it (more like 30 to 40 years)They can build a Steeles Subway or a Lawrence subway and those LRT lines can compliment it in the same way college dundas queen and king compliment the bloor line.

If you're wondering why I'm always here expressing an inordinate amount of rage, it's because I have a small penis, and my chubby thighs and overhanging belly make it seem even smaller.

I don't think anyone here knows what they want........ If we had to pick now the LRT would be the better option only because that it has a definite plan and design compared to the Subway.

If you think about it, if we did have a subway built now, there would also be a bus on service only because the subway wouldn't stop at every stop, which is redundant. Why put unnecessary service? In the long run this will cost more taxpayers money, just to hold up the bus or subway. Where as the LRT has its own designated line and the only thing that is slowing it down is traffic lights. Not to mention, only one service is running through that line.

Honestly, both of them are a bad idea right now because there isn't a full proof design, there are too many flaws with it but if you had to pick one now, I can only see the LRT working. Trust me I would love a subway more than the LRT only because Toronto's infrastructure is severely messed up and if building new modes of transportation is needed, it should be built underground.

Fortunately, I think the Sheppard line will run like the Spadina line. Only because there are a lot of room with Sheppard. St.Clair is just some bullshit excuse people use. Guys, there is a reason why Scarborough is considered the suburbs, not Downtown Toronto.

Lastly, i would love it if they do a fusion of both LRT and Subway, what i mean is that they have some areas built underground but only have the LRT running. Replace the subways in the already built sheppard line with LRTs that way people don't have to transfer from Subway to LRT. Have a smooth transition. Just an idea.

The next mayor got to re-open it because it was a ridiculous plan for our city that needed to be amended.

Also, do you realize Rob Ford is a king in Scarborough and Etobicoe? You can't win Toronto without winning any wards in those two parts, and Rob Ford has that vote sealed up.

Good job council. Your short sightedness and antipathy toward the current mayor ensures our city will be destined to second tier services and transit for years to come. Feel good though, you showed the mayor who's boss. Only took screwing up the city's future to do it. Proud day in Toronto.

Downtown has a subway. Let's give the people that DON'T have a subway a subway. It's especially important to build a Sheppard line now that we have an upcoming extension into Vaughn as well.

Also, there's no proof LRT destroys businesses? JUST LOOK AT ST. CLAIR! Many stores closed because they were practically inaccessible. Do we want to St. Clairize the rest of the city as well?

Also, do you guys realize we should be planning for the future?

You guys are all saying we need LRT NOW. We need to provide a better means of transit NOW. We need to give the residents of Eastern Scarborough out to Meadowvale transit NOW.

Well that's all fine and dandy but what about the future? Subways will better provide what we're seeking here (better transit) for the next 100+ years. LRT will do so for 20 years. When the inevitable happens and the LRT gets torn down in 2-3 decades I'm going to be looking back on this day shaking my head. There's no foresight and no intelligent planning in this city. The whole purpose of this vapid exercise by city councilors was to stick it to Rob Ford, not City Building. It's disgusting.

Oh really? Then how come St. Clair was 1 lane each way during construction but Sheppard had all lanes open for the most part?

David wrote: "There's no foresight and no intelligent planning in this city. The whole purpose of this vapid exercise by city councilors was to stick it to Rob Ford, not City Building. It's disgusting."

Um, read the Toronto Official Plan. The density is being directed downtown by zoning regulations and provincial policies. Proposing that billions of dollars of investment will magically appear in Scarborough is in complete contradiction to the development process. Developer money follows the planning policy guidelines. Until you understand buildings don't appear at random and magically in a few months, you're just going to continue to embarrass yourself with foolish assertions about the future.

"Oh really? Then how come St. Clair was 1 lane each way during construction but Sheppard had all lanes open for the most part? "

Thank you David, for walking right into it.

St. Clair was a mess because it sits in the middle of a dense neighbourhood. Sheppard was not as bad because it's sparsely populated and there's tons of room for ... dedicated right-of-way LRT.

If the subway construction didn't choke off Sheppard, LRT construction won't either.

Moreover, if an area is so wide open that subway construction doesn't affect traffic, maybe that area should not be priority #1 for new subways. Dig?

@gonzo: I live at St. Clair and Bathurst, and travel both east and west from there on the streetcar. Amazing. Love passing the cars during rushhour. I also drive, along the street, and the fact that I have to travel a block more down the road in order to make a left turn? no problem. I think only those who drive all the time, or use St. Clair as a thoroughfare dislike the change. Guess what? the residents of the area like it, and it's our opinion that matters. If you are merely using our neighbourhood as a route to somewhere else, too bad. Find another route.

wow. not only did you drink the koolaid, it sounds like you mixed it up as well.

If we really are thinking 100 years down the road a subway should stretch along Sheppard to Morningside Ave. like the proposed LRT would (A future Subway to Pickering) (or a Subway that actually serves Scarborough) That would be a subway plan that makes sense because then we could transform the RT into an extention of the Bloor/Danforth line UP to the Seppard line rather it go down on a diagonal to the Scarborough Town Centre. That would be really cool right? Then again, If we ARE REALLY TALKING SUBWAY FOR THE FUTURE, won't Eglington be the one that would make the most sense to put the subway(as future generations will have to come up with a new word for "congested" when talking about that street). This subway could stretch from Pearson Airport all the way past Kennedy But to the Eglington GO station just east of McCowan Rd. If we want to serve Scarborough then bring it into Scarborough.
That would be more efficient because the entire city has an easy access to Eglington which means more people would use it.
But reality hits you and money becomes an issue. And sadly people living east of the STC won't benefit from the Subway but may have to pay for it and will still have to make do with the bus.
I however will sympathize for them. As I am a Tax payer that lives close to Islington and the Westway, been having hard times and had to sell my car to keep my house. I could tell you right now that I would love to take ANYthing other than a bus to bloor or have to take one accross Lawrence to Yonge. If im lucky I might get an Eglington LRT to Jane by the time im 65 and ready to retire. (As Im not counting my chickens with the Finch LRT dream)
So yes, my Scarborough neighbours (who live before of close to the STC) Demand your right for a subway! And hopefully my grandchildren (and those non-unionized tax payers who live east of the STC) will be smart and move over there because if they will have to pay for it they might as well be able to use it!!!
This debate of LRT vs Subway was redundant way over a year ago. I think we all can agree that a subway would be nice. But I believe the mayor has mistaken in his plan for the future.
My only question that am still not clear on conserning the LRT is that, Would our surface LRT routes bypass red lights like they do in other cities?

Toronto + York + East York = 22 wards
Etobicoke + Scarborough = 22 wards

So you can really run council with support from either area if the local councillors are willing to give it. That's probably going to change after the next redistribution. The population of Central-South Toronto has been growing faster than the rest of the city as condomania ensues.

It's all good eh?

People losing their businesses, people going broke, and people getting their livelihood slashed is "all good" you say?

Oh man.

Do you realize that the city's top developers have already said they want to built skyscrapers on Sheppard if there's a subway? Or do you just choose to ignore that along with the rest of Scraborough like the other left wingers?

You're blindly ignoring the facts.

Unlike when the subway was constructed, you will HAVE TO close down lanes of Sheppard. It's IMPOSSIBLE to built an LRT without doing so. To suggest that LRT construction will be the same as subway in terms of being disruptive t0 traffic is factually incorrect.

Why is it so hard to hammer away to you pinkos that subways are the answer?

Is it so hard to realize that planning for NOW instead of the future will be detrimental to our beloved city? Even now, NOBODY in Scarborough wants streetcars going down the middle of the street. It's an archaic mode of transportation. I fired off an e-mail to Mr. Mcguinty explaining this to him, and I hope he pulls funding for city council's big mistake.

The PC MPPs want subways, Mcguinty's own Liberal MPPs want subways, the Prime Minister wants subways, and the residents of Scarborough want subways. Premier Dad should do something good for once and realize a big mistake like LRT shouldn't be made just because a few whack-job councilors wanted to stick it to Mayor Ford.

'LRT shouldn't be made just because a few whack-job councilors wanted to stick it to Mayor Ford.'

I would to address this statement. I know LRT's make more sense, you know Subways make more sense. We aren't going to agree on that one.

I want to know why you think that councilors like Parker, Luby, Stintz, Chin Lee, Bailao, Peruzza are trying to stick it to ford. these guys are people who have voted with Ford on almost everything. lets just start with those 6 because they aren't mushy middle. they are right wing. why, in your opinion, are they trying to stick it to Ford?

What I'm saying is, by connecting Sheppard to the Spadina line and the Scarborough RT, we have an interconnected loop that would be highly beneficial to ALL residents of Toronto trying to get around.

The idea you fail to grasp is the city of Toronto has a mandate to serve ALL citizens. Not just the downtowners as you lefties would like to think.

First of all, Chin Lee is a retard. He would have had a subway in his ward! The people in his ward wanted subways and he voted for LRT, something his constituents HATE. That's political suicide if you ask me, and whoever goes up against him in 2014 is going to ride yesterday's to a council seat replacing Mr. Lee.

Karen Stintz is a backstabbing b*tch who has a personal vendetta against Ford.

Councilor Luby has scrapped with the Ford brothers before, we know they don't like each other. This was her trying to stick it to them.

Parker, Balio, and Perruza are just fools with no foresight.

David

How are people going to take the subway to the mall now? NOOOO

You ever take that bus across that WIDE valley along Sheppard West.

At least $1 billion to go from Sheppard to Downsview.

Pipedream.

Sir you have made it quite clear that you prefer a subway. Fine. We will use the entire 8 billion and change to build your subway to as I said earlier just to the Scarborough Town Centre. As long as your happy the rest of us in the city will be forced to suffer and pay for a line that will only benefit a small fraction of our city.
I find it so annoying for me to be considered "left" when I'm rationalizing what is best for the ENTIRE city. Also Your foul language toward Ms. Stintz is inappropriate and does not help or support your argument. As much as I may not care for her myself, you have the take into consideration that the woman has undertaken the challenge of being forced between a rock and a hard place of whchimaera mayor wants and statistics in the reality of making new transit lines. If you can't be respectful, I'm sure you have commented enough on here to get your point across.

I do however have a question for you, what do you suggest to the people that live east of the STC (north east for those actually living on Sheppard) take for their mode of transportation after the Ford's subway is built? The bus? Don't you think building a subway it would be wise to stretch it at least as far as the LRT would go? And then you could create the loop by extending the RT north.

Dear David. Please do some PROPER research about LRTs and then come back to us. Keep in mind that in order to have a successful subway, you need at least 30,000 passengers per hour. Sheppard doesn't have that much, which is why LRT is being used.

Mr. Ford is David your nom de guerre?? Your an idiot!!!

Looking forward to some new shiny LRTs.

You are absolutely hopeless David... I mean Christine. Have you ever tried taking the ttc to Alaska? It's not even possible. What's up with that? Let's get the shovels in the ground. Oh wait, fiscal responsibility...

Chin Lee is a retard because by voting for LRT instead of subways in his ward he effectively committed political suicide for the next election. All his opponent has to say is Mr. Lee denied you citizens the subway you desperately wanted. Easy win.

I don't believe they are that stupid the morons standing around asking drivers to honk with ford surely are but they aren't the majority. The lrt will be under construction the subway would still be planning to plan. I wish the election was tomorrow so we could see who is right but at the moment it is all speculation. Councilors get paid well if you believe that then do it. Go buy yourself a contonese Rosetta stone. You could be rich

crap, sorry guys I forgot to take my meds. I get all retarded when when I don't take them.

Wait, now you want a subway from Hwy 7 to the Sheppard? You know, there's something similar, Viva Green. And can you please spell and type properly? It's like you're a 12 year old on the Internet. Oh wait...

majority to Toronto wants subways. only the spoiled downtowners don't want to share the luxury of subways wit the rest of the city. i hope the downtown relieve line on gets built with z payer money from people who live ion the line. Im tired of my tax dollars going to maintain and improve downtown; while the rest of the city surfers. mega city as the worst thing ever ; only downtown got perks from it. pre 1998 downtown was a shit hole with hooker, message parlors and drug addicts, biker gangs everywhere. with some money from york, Scarborough, north york,Etobicoke downtown has improved 10x

I think the best solution would be for the people of Scarborough to have a plebiscite on whether we want LRT or not, instead of having representatives of other parts of the city deciding what is best for the people of Scarborough.

I think Christine and David are right on with their opinions and the rest of you are a bunch of short sighted brainless idiots.Take this to a public vote now and see what the people of Toronto want.

Concillors in wards affected by this choice voted for LRTs.

Also to the bad grammar guy, over the last three decades it's the suburbs that got the subways. Look at the Sheppard line. Look at the subways being built right now.

Are you unaware of the fact that Buffalo's LRT system is 88% underground? In the suburbs?

Fail.

I swear by the Lords of Kobol, these people need to have a study vacation of most American & European cities that have light rail, so that they can learn about it instead of spewing the bullshit that they do now. Good work on your part of enlightening the pro-Ford neocon sheeple, Gricer.

I can't help it. I'm just a dumb little twat who is pretending to be smart.... I mean, since I'm on welfare and waste it all away on booze and smokes, what else am I gonna do to pass the time?

right - because this all comes down to whether or not those of us that live downtown want to have subways all to ourselves.

nevermind that there's no money for subways, nevermind that the ridership does not and will not exist - nope, we want to be the ONLY ones with subways so we're giving LRT to everyone else. How did you hit the nail so squarely on the head? You've got quite the talent!!

Have you driven along Keele lately? Notice that north of Finch it's down to one lane? That's because of subway construction. If the Spadina extension is any indication, digging subways causes as much construction chaos as LRTs. It's not an argument in favour of one or the other.

The real question is whether Sheppard has the density to support a subway. All studies of future growth in Toronto indicate that it simply doesn't. Vague talk of "skyscrapers" being built along Sheppard isn't good enough. When the TTC originally planned a subway along Sheppard projections of growth in the area were much higher then they've turned out to be, even with the subway that's now there and the growth it has spurred.

And of course, there isn't enough money to expand the subway right now. Mayor Ford didn't even support the parking tax that one of his own allies put forward in council last week, and contrary to what you suggest, there is no more money coming from the province or Ottawa. So how exactly will we found such a project?

Instead of just adding two subway stops to an underused subway, how about building something that will benefit many more Torontonians?

"After buying it and READING it, then come back and tell me that this war on obesity is not just anti-fat phobia?"

That persecution complex looks good on you. It's so slimming.

Donlands and Main, NOTHING: take a look at the street between Donlands and Victoria Park; it looks as if it was beaten with an ugly stick! Any bet that before the subway, it looked a lot better than it does now, and was a lot more vibrant, not to mention not as full of chain stores as it is now? Somebody, many years ago (I think that it was in NOW Magazine) opined that subways are 'troglodyte transit', and I don't disagree with that statement. If I were to design and plan a city from scratch, I sure as frack wouldn't be building subways, but LRT lines and streetcar lines, with buses being forbidden completely.