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Rob Ford comes out on the losing end of mayoral debate on heritage issues

Posted by Tomasz Bugajski / August 31, 2010

George Smitherman Heritage debate"I plead to you, make passionate love to your city," said moderator Paul Bedford to a crowd of several hundred gathered on Monday night for a mayoral debate focused on heritage.

Bedford, former Chief Planner of Toronto, meant that we should take care of our historic landmarks and cultural landscapes, which are priorities the debate's organizers -- Heritage Toronto and the Toronto Historical Association -- are worried don't receive enough attention.

Appropriately held in the historic St. Lawrence Hall, built in 1850 and restored in 1967 for Canada's centennial, the debate provided the top five candidates, plus Rocco Achampong, the opportunity to weigh in on heritage preservation.

Bedford's first question: How would you make heritage a more important part of the decision making process at City Hall?

Rob Ford, surprisingly, called for more money and staff for Heritage Toronto. "What would you rather have, $100,000 coming to Heritage Toronto...or $100,000 for free food for council at council meetings?" Ford asked. The extra money Ford spoke about would thus come from the reallocation of existing funds.

Heritage Debate TorontoGeorge Smitherman, riding on the wave of his heritage preservation policy announced earlier in the day, called for a crackdown on those who own and neglect heritage properties, more resources for Heritage Toronto, and a deeper engagement in the preservation process by local groups.

Sarah Thomson spoke about pre-zoning designated areas to protect heritage sites.

Joe Pantalone complained the provincial government is not giving its fair share to heritage preservation, and Rocco Rossi said that heritage needs to become a larger component of the overall planning process.

Lastly, Achampong said he wants more authority for Heritage Toronto, which is currently dominated by larger agencies.

The conversation then turned to the proposal of a Toronto Museum.

"As much as I love the idea in concept, I don't support it in practical terms," Smitherman said. He added that any extra money should be put towards transit and infrastructure.

Predictably, Ford dismissed the idea outright. "We cannot afford it. Period," he said.

Thomson and Rossi were skeptical about a museum, and Achampong and Pantalone supported it.

Heritage Toronto DebateSt. Lawrence Hall was packed with a downtown crowd, and, judging by the volume and the enthusiasm of applause, Smitherman was the clear favourite. By the same standard, Ford was the night's loser.

"You really believe we have to spend $45 million on renovating Nathan Philips Square?" Ford asked at one point of the debate. Spontaneously, the audience shouted back "Yes!"

During his closing remarks he told everyone to ask themselves on election-day who they trust to avoid scandals at City Hall. The audience exploded with laughter.

And during another awkward moment for Ford, when asked where he'd like to hold a heritage walk, he said "I'd love to do a walk, but I'd rather do a jog because I could lose a hundred pounds."

Monday's debate allowed Smitherman to speak about his work as a provincial MPP in the preservation of Massey House and preventing new condo developments from dwarfing St. James Cathedral, which endeared him to the heritage conscious crowd.

Achampong, however, came across as nervous and failed to win more than polite applause. He ran out of time at several points and conceded he "needs to learn to debate in bullet point form."

With the election winding down to the final stretch, including fringe candidates is little more than a token gesture. Narrowing the race down, on the other hand, would have given more time to individual candidates to get beyond the sound bites and engage in real conversation.

Since the real race will begin in a week, the debates should become more focused. In light of last night's performance, that may or may not be a good thing for Rob Ford.

Discussion

52 Comments

mark / August 31, 2010 at 01:21 pm
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I know the candidates may seem like slim pickin's. But seriously, George Smitherman? This guy cheated Ontario out of so much already...

We can speculate that Ford would be a poor leader, but George has already proved that he is a poor leader.
HUK / August 31, 2010 at 01:24 pm
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I encourage Rob Ford to jog a lot. Perhaps to Hamilton or Windsor or somewhere else far, far away.
dillon / August 31, 2010 at 01:38 pm
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bunch of hippy liberals locked in a heritage building...yeah, definitely sounds like ford got a fair shake. let's see how much slytherman is appreciated when he debates in front of a room of business owners.
Matt / August 31, 2010 at 01:41 pm
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Interestingly though, even Ford conceded that protecting heritage is important. He didn't even suggest slashing the heritage budget, but rather re-allocating other money into heritage protection. He also spoke about the frustrating experience of having city council deny a demolition permit, only to have the OMB grant one.

Not that I'm a Ford fan. Just thought it was neat that even he is mildly progressive on this issue. (Though he was noticeably silent when Smitherman started talking tough on negligent property owners.)
hendrix / August 31, 2010 at 01:46 pm
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We can speculate that Ford would jog a lot as mayor, but Ford has always proved that he doesn't jog.
DeadRobot / August 31, 2010 at 01:50 pm
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Yeah get them liberruls and string 'em up by their art-lovin' necks! Ye haw!! pow pow!
Matt replying to a comment from dillon / August 31, 2010 at 01:51 pm
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Your attempt to insinuate that Smitherman is "slithery" (i.e., snake-like) is marred by an embarrassing spelling error.

Also, business owners don't automatically love Ford.
Jacob / August 31, 2010 at 01:56 pm
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Do Ford supporters even care about heritage? His crowd (who live in post-war suburbs) would probably favour tearing up historic neighbourhoods to put in expressways and Smart Centres.
marlon / August 31, 2010 at 02:17 pm
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i think we can count on a lot more of ford humiliating himself while real candidates discuss real issues over the next two months
Bubba / August 31, 2010 at 02:19 pm
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Rob Ford? HA!
There is a reason why he did not fair so well in this debate, i doubt he spends much time in the core of the city. I hope more of this happens as people will see more of his true colours.

My vote is for Toronto! Take that!
Mike W replying to a comment from Jacob / August 31, 2010 at 02:19 pm
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The only group I'd *ever* try to disenfranchise is the uninformed.
Mark Dowling / August 31, 2010 at 02:51 pm
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The reality is that the debate audience was not likely to be predisposed to vote Ford. The easier option for him was to not bother going. I think Ford would be a disaster as mayor but let's be realistic about the demographic likely to be represented most strongly at a Heritage Toronto event. He'd probably go over better at an event that skewed to lower-middle income/seniors who tend to fear higher property tax bills (not withstanding the existing C of T programs for low income families and seniors).
Meathole replying to a comment from Bubba / August 31, 2010 at 03:07 pm
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I have a feeling Ford spends several days a week downtown....
AT CITY HALL!
KL / August 31, 2010 at 03:38 pm
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Business owners love Ford alright. The kind that own filthy, Etobicoke strip mall "diners" and "taverns".
bbb / August 31, 2010 at 03:39 pm
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Smitherman obviously is the best choice of all the candidates. Not the perfect choice, but definately the best.
bob / August 31, 2010 at 03:47 pm
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Smitherman is the best choice, not the perfect choice, but the best.
TheRealJohnson / August 31, 2010 at 04:18 pm
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Yeah, this clearly wasn't Ford's crowd. But maybe the next debate will be held in a room full of obnoxious turds.
Julie King / August 31, 2010 at 04:41 pm
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Next week I'll be one of 3 journalists who will have the chance to ask Ford, Smitherman, Thomson, Pantalone and Rossi about what they are going to do to strengthen Toronto's economy. (Direct Engagement Show, September 9th)

My question is this: what would YOU ask, if given the opportunity to ask just one question? We created a forum <http://bit.ly/d3iG4g>; where you can suggest a question and I'm going to pick one question to ask on the show.

So please, if you have a great question for these 5 candidates, let me know!
Mike W / August 31, 2010 at 04:45 pm
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Wow even when he hypothetically "loses" a Q&A session (this wasn't a debate) the haters are still hating!

Smitherman was the best choice for eHealth too.
Everyone "fears" what Ford may do but we know what Smitherman has done. Even if you hate for on such petty grounds, Smitherman is hardly the "best choice", bbb/bob/&lt;alias&gt;.
The Shakes / August 31, 2010 at 04:49 pm
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Other than Sarah Thomson, i'd prefer it if none of the candidates were to "make passionate love to our city". Thank you very much.
dillon replying to a comment from Matt / August 31, 2010 at 04:51 pm
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Slytherman, like slytherin
i read fiction
you clearly don't read anything
so i guess you're voting liberal in this municipal election
yay for dummies!
art garfunkel's friend replying to a comment from bbb / August 31, 2010 at 04:52 pm
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If Slytherman is the best option, I'm moving south of the border where common folk don't pander to the pansies.
Heritage Shmeritage / August 31, 2010 at 04:53 pm
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Whose heritage are we protecting?? Spending tax dollars to protect symbols of the elite such as concert halls and grandiose churches is a waste. Do these symbols mean anything to more than half the city's population who were born outside this country?

Let's spend tax dollars on our future, not on a small group's past.
Matt replying to a comment from dillon / August 31, 2010 at 04:57 pm
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After googling, I discover that Dillon's erudite allusion was in reference to a children's novel. My mistake, professor.
Matt replying to a comment from Heritage Shmeritage / August 31, 2010 at 05:03 pm
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Ahem. "Heritage" encompasses more than concert halls and monuments. All those pretty stretches of Victorian and Edwardian commercial properties along King, Queen, Dundas, College, Bloor, Spadina, Yonge, St. Clair, etc...

And I'd wager that monumental buildings do mean something to people born outside Canada. Would you like to see what remains of ancient Tokyo or London or Rome torn down for office buildings?

You misunderstand the issue.
Mike W replying to a comment from Matt / August 31, 2010 at 05:07 pm
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Is that an attack? You'd be surprised to learn adults read, and love, the Harry Potter series (and are not ashamed of it).
Matt replying to a comment from Mike W / August 31, 2010 at 05:16 pm
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Oh, it wasn't an attack on the Harry Potter novels, really. I know lots of adults read them and swear by them.

It was just that dillon taking an air of intellectual superiority because he dropped a Rowling reference was too, too funny.
mike M replying to a comment from Mike W / August 31, 2010 at 05:22 pm
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I'm disillusioned that ford supporters know how to read (even if it is a child's book)
hyperbolist / August 31, 2010 at 05:27 pm
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Everybody who dislikes culture and heritage should move somewhere without culture and heritage rather than advocating for the erosion and eventual dissolution of that which makes Toronto an interesting and worthwhile place to live.

Property is cheap in North Bay and parking is free. Please move there immediately, Mr. Shmeritage et al.
Mike W replying to a comment from mike M / August 31, 2010 at 05:50 pm
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Are you disillusioned because your uninformed reality surrounding the candidates and their supporters is a revealing itself?
mike M replying to a comment from Mike W / August 31, 2010 at 06:13 pm
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I'm not sure what you are getting at, but its clear that you don't understand what i am saying so i'll dumb it down a shade for you or as us 'culture elites' say 'ford it down a shade' for you. I'm shocked to discover that people stupid enough to support rob ford understand written word.
Mike W replying to a comment from mike M / August 31, 2010 at 06:42 pm
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The irony between your first and second post, as well as in your second post alone, is so sweet I'll let you figure it out on your own (and subsequently scoff indignantly at).

Here's a hint: think before you type.

Mike m replying to a comment from Mike W / August 31, 2010 at 06:55 pm
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I'm pretty sure you've got no clue what irony means. If you do, perhaps you could explain the irony of my statements for me
HP Sauce / August 31, 2010 at 07:00 pm
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I hate Ford and quite enjoy harry potter, where do I fit in?
dave winston / August 31, 2010 at 07:08 pm
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TWO WORDS: E-HEALTH SMITHERMAN google it!

smitherman thinks the citizens of toronto are idiots.
Adam Sobolak / August 31, 2010 at 08:37 pm
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Funny thing is, I'm almost willing to go halfway in seeing Rob Ford's point re Nathan Phillips Square, i.e. the impulse to do a "grand reno" perhaps being a little overwrought. Then again, a Mayor Ford NPS "solution" might have been to tear down the useless/deteriorating walkways and replace them with...nothing. (And besides, gioven the evident popular success of the green podium roof, who'd dare speak of "overwrought" anymore?)

Oh, and if Ford had any imagination, he could have offered to do a heritage/Jane's-type walk in his own family backyard, so to speak: the Weston Wood/Royal York Plaza zone. And no, I'm not being sarcastic: it really would be a terrific Jane's Walk kind of "this used to be my playground" thing, at least if you suspend all stigmas attached to the Ford clan...
Greg / August 31, 2010 at 11:16 pm
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I love these, "I are smrter than you comps". Keep it up. I lolz.
hyperbolist replying to a comment from dave winston / August 31, 2010 at 11:54 pm
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Actually Dave, people who buy into false dichotomies--i.e., Smitherman or Ford--are idiots. Just because Smitherman made some atrocious mistakes, doesn't mean you have to vote for the other dishonest piece of sh*t (who happens to be a convicted drunk driver).
bob / September 1, 2010 at 12:02 am
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Even if this wasn't Rob Ford's crowd, that doesn't make this issue not important.

I'm glad there were people criticizing his every word, otherwise there would be some pretty bad mistakes coming our way.

And how can people think that tax dollars should go to this cause?
me / September 1, 2010 at 12:11 am
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y'all sound like americans.
Tim replying to a comment from Julie King / September 1, 2010 at 01:07 am
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Hi Julie, thanks for asking us for questions. I have an important one. I just went through a CD Howe report (www.cdhowe.org/pdf/ebrief_103.pdf) that explodes some myths in this mayoral race.

i) It's a fallacy that Toronto has a spending problem and that cost overruns are a critical issue:
(under EXPENDITURES) Over the past decade, however, the city spent 1.1 percent more than it budgeted, on average, therefore performing among the best provinces in Canada on this measure. ...

ii) What IS true is that more transparency is needed in planning and reporting budgets as there are large deviations btw planned (capital) and actual (operating) budgets:
(under EXPENDITURES) The most useful single-word summary of Toronto’s fiscal management on the expenditure side would be erratic (Table 2). The accuracy measure of 4.5 percent over the decade would put Toronto, if it were a province, ahead of
only Prince Edward Island, and resource-rich Alberta and Saskatchewan...

iii) Many claim that our $3 Billion debt is a problem, growing too fast. Now, I checked this with the financial statements from the City of Toronto for 2008 (2009 reports are not published). There's a report titled "2008 Consolidated Financial Statements" , from http://www.toronto.ca/finance/financial_reports.htm (see attached pdf). The balance and income shortfalls in these statements need to be addressed. But it doesn't strike me as a crisis: 

7.1 B Assets 
10.6 B Liabilities (incl. 3+ bil in debt)
(3.3) B Net Position 

9.5 B Revenue
10.2 B Expenses 
(0.64) B Net Position 


So I definitely agree that spending has to come under control and that there needs to be better transparency. But "fiscal crisis", seems a bit tenuous. And I'm just Joe Public, taking a cursory glance at the books. Now here's the question...

Question: To avoid miscommunication in our fiscal position, what's the best way improve the transparency of budgets?


Thank-you
Tim Washington
S / September 1, 2010 at 02:07 am
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Tired of mainstream media choosing a select few of runners up for the election. THERE ARE PLENTY MORE PEOPLE (SEVERAL DOZENS) THAT HAVE APPLIED FOR THE ELECTION BUT MAINSTREAM MEDIA SEEM TO BE AFRAID OF THEM.

Why?
T replying to a comment from S / September 1, 2010 at 08:23 am
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Swap "AFRAID" for "not enough room to cover every fringe candidate who is as likely to win anything as someone *not* running" and you sort of have a point.
Ryan L. replying to a comment from S / September 1, 2010 at 09:22 am
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I wish people would stop claiming the Mainstream media has some sort of political agenda going on.

With the exception of perhaps Fox News, the media has one simple agenda: make money through advertising.

They do this by trying to provide the most valuable product to advertisers (i.e. the more viewers the better).

So to them, viewership is King. They give people what they want to see first, then start worrying about being objective*.

Spending time on fringe candidates doesn't do this. Focusing on the big 5 does. People want to be updated on Ford and Smitherman, not 12 other candidates whose names they don't know.

*They are being objective in their minds by giving Rocco and Thompson time to speak and not just the front runners, Ford and Smitherman.
JLankford / September 1, 2010 at 09:35 am
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The best part is, whoever ends up winning will likely end up with only one third of the popular vote.
Steve replying to a comment from dillon / September 1, 2010 at 10:13 am
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how boorish. You feel because you live in the suburbs and do not care about history and protecting the history and heritage of Toronto you are some how a better person.
I will not sink to your level of ignorance and insult you. But will say if you have nothing constructive to say keep it to yourself.
jagsPachappag / September 1, 2010 at 03:55 pm
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Perry / September 2, 2010 at 01:42 pm
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George Smitherman was the elected representative when Walnut Hall built in the 1800’s on Shuter Street just east of Jarvis was allowed to be demolished by neglect.

Perry Missal (www.perrymissal.ca) the Ward 27 City Council candidate cares about protecting our history.
Smithers / September 4, 2010 at 11:07 pm
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Rob Ford on the losing end? Bullshit!

What does Smitherman know anything about, except sodomy and theft?

Where's the billion bucks you stole from eHealth, George?

Bastard!
Sally / September 5, 2010 at 03:46 pm
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What kind of idiot says this???

"I plead to you, make passionate love to your city,"
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