City
TTC Token Hoarding Prompts Strict Anti-Hoarding Measures
TTC token hoarding is already becoming a problem and the transit commission has sprung into action with a serious effort to thwart it.
Effective immediately, TTC staffers have been instructed to sell no more than 5 tokens at fare collection booths. Automatic token dispensers in unattended subway entrances will be programmed to deliver just one token. And the worst part of this all? If a fare collector booth run out of tokens, staff have been instructed to charge riders the full fare of $2.75. Is this fare fair?
The stricter limits on token sales come just a few days after the TTC began limiting token purchases to 10 tokens per person.
With approval of significant fare hikes likely coming on November 17th, and effective January 3rd, 2010, TTC riders are scrambling to do what they can to save a few bucks during hard times.
In addition to a proposed hike in token prices (from $2,25 to $2.50), talk of raising the regular adult Metropass to $126 (from $109, which would result in the pass making even less fiscal sense than it already does to weekday commuters), are the culprits here.
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How can this be happening? Shitty service, shittier prices, shitty vehicles. I know it's easy to complain, but this is getting out of hand.
The feds and Queen's Park rob Toronto, and some other cities too, and the fact is that it will continue so long as we bend that way.
These machines don't take $5 bills, so we'll have to put in a $10 or $20 bill and get back $7.50 or $17.50 in coins? These machines are going to be blinking their red "out of service" lights all the time because they'll run out of change to give back. We're going to have to put up with 2 month of this craziness!
For me, this fare hike = car time. I've been screwed enough, time for me to screw something... in this case, the ozone.
HA!
The TTC right now does a hell of a lot, and it doesn't get the money it needs from the provincial and federal governments. That's a reality it has to face. As nice as it is to have quality service, Toronto can't afford it. If people don't want to pay higher fares then respond by cutting services so the current fare levels can be maintained. Clearly that's what people want - they can't honestly be demanding lower fares and better service, can they?
You've obviously have never travel other countries, and going to the 905 does not count!
The Dufferin bus route is a make-work project for bus drivers. Every day I see 3 busses traveling in a row, one with a few people on board, then 2 absolutely empty. And then long stretches of nothing. Every day. All day.
There - fix that. Manage the routes better - It'll probably save the city 100,000 in wages and fuel per year.
If the city actually had a forum for citizens to point out obvious bullshit and mismanagement like this, things would change, and money would be saved. But no, the TTC doesn't want anyone telling them how to do their job, so we get the same old bullshit.
I hope Smitherman has a set of balls, because for all the good Millar did, he was a wimp. Someone has to effect serious change at the TTC.
PS. The TTC reaping 75% of its operating budget from charging exorbitant prices for crap service in a protected market with a monopoly is nothing to be proud of.
same with spadina
4 streetcar pileup.. service stall at the station,where 'conductors' are busy chatting it up exhanging non essential information.. causing huge line ups and risk for potential disaster and rider safety.
10? ;)
Economies of scale, its a basic economic principle. Its why wallmart is taking over the world.
So what you pointed out is Toronto's gross mismanagement.
I've been through Europe, and the States. The TTC is far from the worst.
@jamesmallon
It may not be the best in the world, but it's far better then people in this city make it out to be. On our own doorsteps for example, London Ontario's LTC is a disaster. LA's Metro was a disaster when I took it in 2002. Winnipeg's system doesn't come close to the level I've come to expect from the TTC either.
Add to that the fact that this 501 split has added twenty minutes to my commute (each way) and that the cars are packed to the doors and it makes for really shitty service.
A transit system that was likely highly subsidized by Toronto taxpayers too. You're welcome.
"Traffic congestion in the Toronto region costs Canada $3.3-billion in lost productivity a year, the result of urban sprawl, decades of underinvestment in public transit by Ottawa and a disjointed system, the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development says.
In a first-of-its-kind review of the region's economy, the OECD said transit service in the Toronto Census Metropolitan Area has not kept pace with population growth, with 71 per cent of commuters still dependent on the automobile – one of the highest rates of car use among cities in the organization's 30 member countries."
Symptom: TTC staff and service is unacceptable.
Cause: our political class pandering to the lowest class consciousness of its electorate: have the wealthy resent their taxes being 'wasted', or have the working poor resent TTC staff being 'overpaid'.
Reality is complex and nuanced, and includes all of the above, and a great deal more. Yes, you fell for a wedge issue, and cheapened our 'democracy' in so doing. Thanks boneheads.
So the TTC needs money right? They have to get it from somewhere, and it isn't coming from any level of government (not significant amounts anyways). So guess what? That means they either need to make themselves more efficient, or charge more coin to us, all while expanding their service. And yes, they ARE expanding service and WILL be expanding even more in preparation for the Pan Am games.
To increase efficiency in such a large organization can be extremely difficult... not to mention it's usually a slow process. So imagine that difficulty level... now triple it because their employees are unionized.
There are so many other factors too... fuel prices, money they used for driver enclosures so that we, the rider, can't spit or throw bricks at their faces. You get the idea.
Yep, the money is going to come from us. Hey, I for one will pay. You don't want to? Take your car to work then... oh, is that too expensive? Hmmm... you could ride your bike! Oh wait, you don't want to do that, besides winter is alomst here. Well you better sit at home on the internet and complain then! If it really bothers you, DO something about it! Start a petition or something. Or fucking car-pool. Just don't complain unless you know what you're talking about. Take it and go. By the way, I'm no TTC apologist or employee... just calling it like I see it.
Ultimately, there are 2 questions TTC detractors need to answer. First, what exactly do you consider a working transit system? What does it look like? How does it operate? This is easy for anyone to answer, since we all have our ideas. For me, personally, I don't mind seeing 2 empty buses following a full one -- I know which one I'm getting on, for a much more pleasant ride at that!
No matter how you answer the first question, you also have to answer the second question honestly: how much are you willing to pay for it? If the TTC is as bad as you think it is now, and it costs this much, and the government is never going to pitch in... Well, how much would your ideal system cost, hmm? And would you pay it?
Would it still cost less than the daily use of an automobile? Without a doubt.
I should also add that a suggestion like schwang's, namely the tacit approval of FRAUD and COUNTERFEITING, may help you in the short term, but hurts the entire city in the long run, as it's probably not helping the TTC with its costs.
I MOVED AROUND THE CORNER FROM WORK.
I WALK TO WORK.
Also, implement a pre-paid card system. It'll cost more now, but it'll prevent counterfeiting and improve riders' experience (no fumbling for tokens).
I just do not have any reason to complain at this point for the hike and don't see what all the fuss is about... If you hate it so bad, don't use it - there are many alternative solutions.
How about you start doing your job properly. Why aren't people that smoke on TTC property ever fined. I've seen plenty of people break the law with TTC employees present, ignoring them. That would turn a nice profit for ya. And how about you start running your business like a business: sack the people that don't do their job, modernize the system, longer hours for the subway. I fail to see why I should pay a premium price for a shitty service. If the TTC was a corporation it would have run bankrupt by now.
Stop ripping people that rely on your service off and start doing your jobs properly. For shame.
I used to work as a station collector as a summer job while in university...so i know what goes on.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/04/02/5174216-sun.html
Ok, so he worked a lot of overtime, but COME ON! ridiculous. ttc salaries are too high...don't pass that mess onto the customers.
Now, we've got to wait for the hike to be approved for the price to go back down.
F'n TTC
Five years ago, I bought tokens or a metropass and used the TTC to go everywhere. I understand that the TTC needs money, even just to maintain the 'only okay' service we have now. But it's downright insulting that I can only by 5 tokens at a time. Sorry TTC, but until you learn to respect your customers I'll be taking my personal 'transit system.'
That said, the city, and the TTC haven't exactly kept a lid on spending as is, and more money handed over to the system would only disappear down the hole. If there were conditions placed on funding, say to initiate a swipe-card system like New York's that would lower operating costs over time, maybe we'd see actual results. Maybe.
This happens every year with tokens. Or at least every year there's a fare increase since I've been riding the TTC which started in about...1986.
Do the math of the fare increase. Investing your money in tokens is a lower return than just about any other form of investment you can make, except in the very short term.
It doesn't make it less stupid that the TTC does this.
That would cost $300-400 million and would be obsolete long before the costs were recouped. An electronic payment system is coming, eventually. People who are in such a hurry to incur such expenses should let everyone else know what service improvements or other big upgrades they'd rather put off... and share with the rest of us which magical pot of money they'll use to pay for it.
Why do folks only mention the costs? Look at how Hong Kong's MTR's Octopus card took off, growing from a transit card to a nearly universal method of payment for goods in shops, vending machines, etc.
The TTC has thought about it, but I guess they believe new streetcars, and a hand full of expensive expansions (that they can't afford), is the way to go.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/200611171159.shtml
The Presto card being implemented across the GTA (with the notable exception of the TTC itself) sounds almost exactly like the “Oyster card” that’s been in use in London for almost 4 years.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/2732.aspx
Wikipedia also has a very long list of municipalities that use smart cards for their fare systems. This isn’t particularly new technology for transit agencies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_smartcard#Contactless_Smart_Card
And as the TTC never seems to hesitate in throwing hundreds of millions into salaries and pensions, why not invest in something that's going to benefit the people who actually use the system? Not only that, but it'll make raising the fares easier for them (and could also be used to initiate a zoned fare system to offset those fare hikes).
Having traveled across Europe and East Asia, I have to admit, Toronto as well as the GTA has a pretty embarrassing system. I hear International Students at the local universities giggling over it all the time. We aren’t Communist North Korea, its time for an updated fare system. This is a perfect opportunity for TTC to attract new 905ers out of their cars.
The fare system may still be out of date, but at least with Presto, it provides Metrolink with the instrument needed for a fair but complex fare structure.
Finch station has two tim hortons as well as a few other small shops.
Why not sell pizza slices on fridays to make some extra operating cash?
Maybe the ttc can also look at their advertising space in a new light
not all the value of the ttc lies in their service. The ttc has a lot of physical
space and assets that are underused. I often wonder about the baren corners
of stations and how often riders actually explore all the area a station takes up
With the bump up in Metro passes, hoarding tokens saves me at least $100 over a 4 month period. And I save an extra $50 when they do actually hike up the token prices.
Quite frankly, I am going to ride the TTC and save my $600 per year, thank you very much.
Meanwhile, take the time to unload your pennies at the ticket counters, bus and streetcars. Let them know you won't be sheep to these idiot bureaucraps.
And regardless, if it's a service that is paid for by commuters, why is there a common continuous complaint about the treatment of operators/drivers towards commuters. Or, put another way, a complaint against the people who provide the service towards the people who pay for the service.
WALK.
Walk 10 minutes to the nearest subway stop or convenience store, buy your tokens, and then hop back on your usual route. Does everyone really work/live in the middle of absolutely nowhere? I doubt it.
You work downtown? There are probably a dozen places within 10 minutes that will sell you tokens, some of which are definitely along your way home. That's what I do.
Thank you, Mike, for perpetuating the "centre of the universe" stereotype that all of us in the GTA have to deal with on a national level.
The TTC is limiting the number of tokens you can buy at once because whenever there is an announcement of a fare hike, demand spikes, while the supply stays the same. In other words, if they didn't set a limit then they'd be out of them by now. And then everyone would be complaining about THAT instead.
The problem here isn't even service. I think we've all encountered bad TTC employees. I don't think anyone is debating that. I'm sick to death of the drivers of the 30 bus that I have to deal with (opening the doors before they've stopped, expecting me to leap on with my cane, I suspect; pedal to the metal as soon as they've seen my pass so that I'm flung down the aisle without even a second of a chance to find a seat; leaving Kipling station early, for which there is no excuse; or never following the posted schedule, for that matter, even at times when there is almost no traffic...) but I don't believe this should be our rallying point.
Saying, "how dare you rase our fares when the drivers are all dicks?!" doesn't help us.
The problem here, as I see it, are two-fold: The various levels of goverment are not funding the TTC properly, and the TTC is mismanaging the funds they do have. (A third problem would be fare evasion... I don't know how big of a dent that makes in the grand scheme of things, but it drives me crazy when I see it... especially when a TTC employee sees it too and does nothing.)
I don't think we should take any politician seriously when they say they support green initiatives, but mention nothing about boosting funding to public transit. I firmly believe that the reason the government only ever seems interested in funding things like extending the subway, but not overall operating expenses is because you can't get your picture taken infront of "improved service".
As for the TTC's mismanagement of funds. Oy. I'm not an expert in these issues, but experts do exist and we should be asking them what should be done. And we should insist that the TTC listen to them.
I don't think there's much we can do to avoid this fare hike, but we all should be writing to our government representatives and demanding that they do something to avoid future hikes. I'm not sure that boycotting the TTC for one day is going to do a whole lot, but an organized protest where the people with the power to do something are could do wonders.
They're not going to listen to us if we just keep complaining to one another about things that have very little to do with the actual problem.
As for the fake tokens: seriously? Do you even realize just who you're stealing from when you use fake tokens, fake passes, or just waltz into a bus bay without paying? How on earth can a thinking person believe that riding public transit illegally for free can possibly help lower fares? Or improve service? Or stop you from being mobbed by angry paying customers who are paying through the nose for your free ride?
I'm glad they have the limit now.
Details in the currency act (I'm sure this has been quoted previously):
(2) A payment in coins referred to in subsection (1) is a legal tender for no more than the following amounts for the following denominations of coins:
(a) forty dollars if the denomination is two dollars or greater but does not exceed ten dollars;
(b) twenty-five dollars if the denomination is one dollar;
(c) ten dollars if the denomination is ten cents or greater but less than one dollar;
(d) five dollars if the denomination is five cents; and
(e) twenty-five cents if the denomination is one cent.
So, pennies are a no-go, but you can be a douche/crusader (I'm on the fence about defining this act) with a pocket full of beavers when purchasing a single fare.
Referenced URL:
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-52/20091112/page-1.html?rp2=HOME&;rp3=SI&rp1=currency%20act&rp4=all&rp9=cs&rp10=L&rp13=50
I've been told by TTC staff it's 'cause they have to keep to a schedule, but what good is a schedule that no one witnesses? A friend who works for the city explained that they need to keep to a schedule for staff breaks, not for the benefit of the public or service.
It's stupid to blame Miller or blame Giambrone or say Smitherman (and his balls) will change anything. Each are a person working in a huge, convoluted, bureaucratic system. One person can't change all of this, regardless of their intentions or title. A change has to be initiated at the top and we have a Prime Minister who doesn't value or understand our city.
If they didn't limit how many you could buy at once then they would definitely run out and you would definitely be paying the cash fare. At least this way you stand a fighting chance of getting tokens.
Hell, I'd rather walk or bike.