Scramble Crossing at Yonge and Bloor
Toronto will get its second scramble crossing this Friday -- this one at the busy intersection at Yonge and Bloor. This follows in the footsteps of the well received experiment at Yonge and Dundas where the city's first scramble crossing was implemented just over one year ago.
Unlike Dundas West, neither Yonge nor Bloor Streets have streetcars to slow down traffic which means there's likely to be a smoother transition for cars than the Yonge and Dundas crossing. At that intersection, streetcars had been known to hold up traffic behind them for several minutes as they open their doors to let on more passengers.
Still, it may pose some confusion for motorists until they get used to the new dynamics of the intersection. Let's hope they make the audible cues to cross ("Walk sign is on for all crossing") more comprehensible.
Toronto also has plans to implement this type of pedestrian crossing at the Bay and Bloor intersection.
Is being able to cross at Yonge and Bloor in a quicker, more efficient manner something to look forward to? Or will this make things worse for one of Toronto's busiest intersections?
Comments (38)
I like these intersections, but I imagine too many in a row would become a pain for drivers.
Are there any planned for Spadina?
It's about time! The ability to cross diagonally - that's what city hall should be focusing on. Thank god they stopped worrying about affordable housing, the waterfront, improving mass transit, trying to actually divert garbage from landfill, etc.
I would love to see this in Chinatown. Dundas and Spadina has got the be one of the most congested intersections in the city. Queen and Spadina wouldn't be so bad either.
guess people can't walk underground through all the subway entrances/exits.. funny people are complaining about no time for exercise, but would not walk just a bit more...it's quite laughable these crossings..
Steve, I think we can hold more than one thought in our heads at one time. Pedestrian issues can be addressed along with transit, housing, education and so on.
Jack, you just don't know. Why should pedestrians take a several minutes detour on a level street just so cars can advance a few seconds earlier. And in fact, these Scramble Crossings make it better for cars too, as no pedestrians cross during a green light, and cars can then freely turn right at will.
Actually, at Dundas pedestrians can still cross the stopped street on car green light. It's always bothered me a little bit. It's not a very typical scramble, between pedestrian crossing on car green, (as I recall) banning of most turns, and the scramble only occurring half the time during the cycle.
Motorists can stuff it. They get enough in this town. Grow up, it's a city: go to the country if you want to drive fast.
They should put a scramble @ Front & York/University for all the people coming and going from Union station.
"Let's hope they make the audible cues to cross ("Walk sign is on for all crossing") more comprehensible."
YES. It took me forever to figure out what was being said, especially over the noise/music levels at Yonge & Dundas. When I hear it, I still tend to think the voice is saying "ONE sign..."
@jack on - The TTC's subway entrances are abysmally difficult to deal with for people with a disability, mobility impairment, chronic pain, or just a big load of shopping bags. Such a 'little detour' for me almost always involves encountering stairs, which means knifelike pain with every step.
Also, when we are trying to prevent virus transmission, it's hardly a good idea to have people touching multiple sets of doors and staircase/escalator railings when they could instead simply walk across the street with no more than an elbow's nudge of a crossing-light button.
Yay Google Street View! And it also shows me that there are no right or left turns in any direction allowed at Dundas and Yonge. I vaguely recall during the pilot people asking if the city would now allow right turns ....
The Yonge-Dundas scramble is terrible. The proper way to do a scramble is:
--east-west cars go, NO PEDESTRIANS. Cars can turn right unimpeded!
--north-south cars go, NO PEDESTRIANS. Cars can turn right unimpeded!
--Pedestrian scramble, NO CARS. Pedestrians can walk diagonally.
With this setup, pedestrians wait only slightly longer than a usual intersection, and cars can turn right easily. Yonge and Dundas bans right turns and lets peds walk with traffic. This is dumb - you don't get any extra ped benefit from the scramble, and you slow down car traffic. The POINT of the scramble is to allow easy right turns, and Yonge-Dundas is losing out on that.
Rogers Road at Old Weston Road has already a signal with a pedestrian walk on all four directions, EXCEPT no official diagonal. They could easy add a diagonal signal for pedestrians at that intersection.
Well, as long as we're talking about only the one intersection, banning right turns is always going to speed up traffic (except for people expecting to turn and being confused) since you don't have cars slowing down to turn. When considering a longer stretch, it might slow it down a bit since there are more cars on the street.
In the current situation, pedestrians do get some benefit from the scramble: they are able to cross diagonally if they arrive at the corner at the right time.
Currently, the scramble light is only on after either the Yonge or the Dundas light -- I can never remember -- but not both. That both confuses ("is the diagonal going to be on now?") and slows pedestrians down.
Having the scramble after both parts of the cycle would be better, and properly scrambling the intersection (with right turns) should be looked into IMO.
Another point I think is worth making is that it's not really that great of an idea to go to lengths to give cars priority on Yonge - there's University and Bay if you need to get somewhere in a hurry, while Yonge has far more foot traffic (Bay from fidi to Union during rush hour notwithstanding).
So the Dundas scramble slows cars down. Oh well.
Another point I think is worth making is that it's not really that great of an idea to go to lengths to give cars priority on Yonge - there's University and Bay if you need to get somewhere in a hurry, while Yonge has far more foot traffic (Bay from fidi to Union during rush hour notwithstanding).
So the Dundas scramble slows cars down. Oh well.
It'll be interesting to see what they do with the scramble at Yonge & Bloor. Does anybody know if they are planning to permanently ban all turns from the intersection for the scramble like at Yonge & Dundas? Or will they have right turn priority for drivers? I guess we'll find out soon.
I can't imagine it will be easy for people to get used to, if pedestrians see a green light they'll go...no matter if it says Don't Walk or not.
Great point. Anyone who thinks that Yonge St is good road to get somewhere quickly doesn't really understand how to drive in the city.
Personally, I think we should close down Yonge & Dundas to vehicles after rush hour and on weekends (7pm - 5am) and make it exclusively pedestrian. It wouldn't really hurt traffic too much and it would create a pedestrian friendly square that actually encourages people to use the space more freely. Europe has squares like these everywhere and New York recently banned traffic in Times Square.
Cars have their place, but there are a few areas where pedestrians overflow sidewalks and are the majority. Yonge & Dundas and Yonge & Bloor both fall into that category.
The longer it takes for people to scramble, the longer cars at stopped at intersections which in turn burn more fossil fuels.
Ever see how the scramblers stop like deer on its tracks when an ambulance is screaming at the Yonge-Dundas intersection? More noise pollution from the siren and horn.
There's always someone like Sean who brings in the fuel-efficiency red herring. Sean, we'd believe you cared if you were NOT IN A CAR.
The real term is "melee crossing". You'd think that all the Francophones would be in a hissy fit over this...
@James
Duh-uh. Not just cars! Delivery vehicles, such as the post office trucks, furniture trucks, etc.
Because of all the intersections in the city, Yonge and Dundas is the one most commonly frequented by furniture trucks. Come on.
If we have some traffic, we're going to have some pollution, but that's no reason to (figuratively) pave over the city just to keep cars from idling. Also, latent demand, anyone?
"guess people can't walk underground through all the subway entrances/exits.. funny people are complaining about no time for exercise, but would not walk just a bit more...it's quite laughable these crossings.."
Yes quite laughable. From the south-west to the north-east corners you would have to first, walk back to the Eaton Centre entrance dodging the "Learn about Islam" people who won't take no for an answer, then through the crowd of loitering teenagers to the escaltor, ride down the escalator, as suburban mall crawlers don't walk on the left, then walk into the subway station, navigating around the tourists who have no clue where they are going, go east and then down another escalator (maybe make a detour into that little known but very well stocked LCBO,) walk through the tunnel, dodging gaggles of tween girls going to Hollister, walk up the stairs, since the escalator here is in month 7 of it's 14 month repair job, then emerge in the subway station, don't try this at rush hour, walk over to the Toronto Life Sq errr.. 1 Dundas East entrance, ride up the escalator, only wide enough for one, then walk outside and finally at the north-east corner.
The whole point of "scramble" crossings is to speed up traffic flow: both pedestrian and motor vehicle. The key is that Pedestrians can cross all directions while vehicles wait and then vice-versa (i.e. no crossing during the green lights for cars to allow them to turn without pedestrian interference). Unfortunately, Toronto is not implementing this key component of the scramble essentially making the whole project a waste of time and money.
fyi.. underground or above ground walkway is the norm in HK in busy intersections.. that's called efficiency in a true metroplitan city!
i work right at eaton centre and go to extreme fitness(diagonal across), i never have any issues crossing the streets before the all way stops..even if i have to go underground, it is very simple and straight forward.. esp during winter, it's a real treat not to have to go outside.. and I live dt.. so I really don't understand all the fuss about these useless crossings...toronto is not that crowded, give me a break.. if people can't cross one busy street.. they should just stay home..
Jack, I've been to Hong Kong many times and travelled extensively in Asia as well as lived in Japan 13 years. I presume you are a former resident of HK, or at least visited there a few times. Underground walkways are not the norm in HK and the few that exist I avoided because it was just simpler to cross the street.
In Tokyo I opted as often as not to use their underground passages because they are filled with A-grade retail and attached to every subway and train station. Especially Shinjuku Station and Tokyo Station.
Toronto tends to only have narrow stairs, or one escalator with a 50-50 chance of going opposite to your direction. Again, it is easiest just to cross the street.
undergound and above ground walkway is the norm in HK.. they are called "subway" which is not the same as the subway here as they are not for trains.. they are for people to walk and cross the street .. and no retails.. they are EVERYWHERE, not just in the tourist districts of TST or Central.. 'cause even areas outside of the core have busier streets than our toronto downtown..if Yonge and dundas is considered to be busy, then probably 80% of the intersections in hk will have to be converted to 4 way stops for pedestrians...by the same token.. probably all intersections in manhattan will have to be converted to scramble crossings too
i find that in general, torontonians have this anti-density mentality... anything, anywhere that is just a little more dense, god forbid, opposition from everywhere.. but we are ok paying more tax, are we really? are torontonians happier without seeing anyone around them? this is the reason why it is so hard to open a business in toronto, 'cause there is not enough pedestrian traffic in downtown.. people here are sooo scared of crowd..
Jack, I will confess that my time in HK is spent in TST and Central, so in other areas there may very well be tons of pedestrian subways to cross the street. But I imagine this is a function of wide, auto-centric roads that would be too dangerous to cross. In Central and TST it is still best to cross at street level 90% of the time.
As for Toronto, I agree we need more density. And you are right that the average Torontonian doesn't know what real, and what good density looks like.
I work at Yonge & Dundas and I think scrambling is fun! Especially when I'm late for work and "Walk sign is on for all crossings" comes at just the right time.
so who is buying those Gloria V one piece here by American Apparel, since they are running that gross box ad here on blogto like crazy, i hope they are selling like hot cakes..I am going to get one for Halloween
It doesn't make much sense to me to go:
East-West crossing
North-South crossing
Diagonal crossing.
I'd rather see:
East-west crossing
Diagonal crossing
North-south crossing
diagonal crossing
Of course, as always, Toronto tries
to do something a decade late, does it half-assed and fails
miserably. There are two main purposes of a scramble crossing. Firstly, to allow pedestrians to cross more easily. More importantly (especially for Downtown Toronto), to allow turning traffic to turn without waiting for a gap in crossing pedestrians, thereby allowing non-turning traffic to travel without waiting for turning traffic to turn. In order to do this, the two vehicle intervals in the three-interval intersection have to allow NO pedestrian crossings, as opposed to just prohibiting turns. This defeats half the purpose of the scramble crossing. In other words, it should be JUST NORTH-SOUTH TRAFFIC, then JUST EAST-WEST TRAFFIC, then JUST PEDESTRIAN-ONLY SCRAMBLE. Gotta love this city.
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