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The Great MMP Debate

Posted by Rick Moldovanyi / October 10, 2007

Today is election day. It is also referendum day. Some of you have probably already voted. Some of you are planning on voting later today. Some of you are likely undecided. And some of you have already decided that you're not going to vote.

The main reason that people do not vote is because they feel their vote does not matter. Proponents of the Mixed Member Proportional system believe that instituting their system of choice will cause more votes to matter. "Every vote counts and no party gets more or less than it earned at the ballot box" claims the main page of VoteForMMP.ca.

Of course, not everyone agrees. NoMMP.ca counters that "the proposed MMP system shifts power from the local voter in ridings across Ontario to the power brokers at Queen's Park."

Each side has a point to counter their opponent's point, as well. One site states that "Governments that win with less than majority support nonetheless claim a "mandate from the people". Once any party controls a majority of seats, nothing can stop a premier from enacting unpopular laws that are not supported by a majority of voters" while the other says "the strength of our representation would weaken dramatically if MMP were to become our electoral system... Who exactly do these list MPPs represent? MMP has no real answer. They sort of do not represent anyone, which means that there is less accountability and weaker democracy in Ontario."

Which system is right? That's up for you to decide. If you haven't voted yet please take the time to read up as much as you can on both systems and make an informed choice when you get to the polls.

Discussion

14 Comments

Chris Tindal / October 10, 2007 at 02:04 pm
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Here's a question: why on Earth would the Citizens' Assembly, a group of every-day Ontarian voters, recommend we adopt a system that shifts power away from voters? The obvious answer is the correct one: they wouldn't, and they didn't.

The lack of public education on what the Citizens' Assembly is proposing and why has enabled the No MMP folks to spread lies and fear about a system that works very well in the countries that use it. Their most resonating arguments are either distortions of the truth or out-right lies, and almost none are based on a fair analysis of the evidence from countries that use MMP.

In the end, the Citizens' Assembly voted 94-8 in favour of recommending MMP for Ontario, and they knew more about its strengths and weaknesses than anyone else in the province. It's not a perfect system, but it's a much needed improvement. Today, voters should mark an X beside Mixed Member Proportional.
Derek Kraan / October 10, 2007 at 02:17 pm
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Who exactly do the list MPPs represent? The answer is simple: they represent the voters of Ontario. Not every constituency is geography-based, and it's about time our voting system reflected this.

I voted for MMP today. I hope you all do too.

p.s., if you want to hear it "from the horse's mouth", go to: www.citizensassembly.gov.on.ca
braeken / October 10, 2007 at 03:51 pm
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I think that MMP is a good thing but let's be honest it will never get enough votes. I suspect that at least 30 per cent of the voters have no clue that there is a referendum and most of those people will vote in favour of something the don't know\understand.

I would consider it an success if MMP gets more than 30 per cent of the votes.
Jerrold / October 10, 2007 at 06:56 pm
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Ugh. I hate that they used the words "current" and "alternative" on the referendum ballot for MMP. It's like the powers that be want it to fail.
Rick / October 10, 2007 at 10:08 pm
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Well, it looks like MMP lost.
Jerrold / October 10, 2007 at 10:09 pm
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Spacing poll: 19% current, 81% MMP
Actual results: 63% current, 38% MMP

The take home message: smart people read Spacing, and stupid people vote ;)
Rick / October 10, 2007 at 10:12 pm
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Not that I disagree with everyone's stance, but the arrogance in those who support MMP is disgusting.

Throughout the day all I've heard is that you're "an idiot" if you support first-past-the-post and that "smart people" support MMP.

What happened to having a variety of opinions? Isn't that what MMP is all about? Allowing representation for differing opinions?
Jerrold / October 10, 2007 at 10:38 pm
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Sorry if I offended, I was kidding around (hence the winky).
Rick / October 10, 2007 at 10:42 pm
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I figured you were joking, but the amount of people I've heard today expressing the same thoughts who weren't kidding was outrageous.
Jerrold / October 10, 2007 at 10:46 pm
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I saw the word "alternative" on the ballot, started humming Smells Like Teen Spirit, and nearly put an X in the wrong box ;)
Jerrold / October 10, 2007 at 11:16 pm
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Dylan Reid at Spacing <a href="http://spacing.ca/votes/?p=515";>sums it up nicely</a>.
x_the_x / October 11, 2007 at 10:44 am
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I don't understand the problem with "current" and "alternative". How else would you describe them? I suppose you could have gone with "existing" and "proposed", but I don't really see the difference. While I appreciate that there is always a fair amount of head scratching and soul-searching the day after a (resounding) election defeat, the pro-MMP forces are ignoring the obvious reason why the referendum failed: voters are content with the current system.

On another vein, CBC is reporting that 6 or 107 ridings met the 50% threshold (which was required of 50% of ridings to pass, in addition to the overall 60% threshold). Does anyone know which ridings these are or have a link to a riding-by-riding breakdown?
Rick / October 11, 2007 at 11:53 am
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The Star has a breakdown, but it's a little annoying to navigate:

http://www3.thestar.com/cgi-bin/star_static.cgi?section=results&;page=/Specials/071010_election_results.html
x_the_x / October 11, 2007 at 12:32 pm
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Thanks for that, and interesting results. All 6 ridings favouring MMP are in Toronto proper and none of them reached the 60% threshold - i.e., even where the idea was most popular (and one infers, where the yes campaign concentrated its resources), it was not popular enough to meet the supermajority threshold. That is - not a single riding was in favour of MMP to the required majority. In other words, park your conspiracy theories at the door.

The ridings, for those interested are:
Trinity Spadina (NDP held)
Toronto Danforth (NDP held)
Toronto Centre (Liberal held)
Beaches EY (NDP held)
Davenport (Liberal held, strong NDP and green candidates)
Parkdale HP (NDP held).

Draw your own conclusions, but one can at the very least infer that the idea was most popular in jursidictions where it was perfectly rational for voters to prefer MMP, i.e., NDP strongholds, since it is acknowledged that the NDP (and, to a lesser extent, the Greens) would be the big winners in an MMP system. Yet, paradoxically, these are also the jursidictions where NDP voters have been able to get their candidates elected first-past-the post.



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