Is Real Grass Coming to BMO Field?
City council will vote this week on a proposal by Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (MLSE) to replace the much maligned Field Turf at BMO field, with natural grass. If you ask any of my fellow Toronto FC fans, getting the green stuff at BMO is a good thing. The players hate the turf. In fact, the only way we could get Spanish heavyweights Real Madrid here in the summer was to install a $250k temporary natural grass solution.
Field Turf gets blamed for everything from nagging injuries and missed goal opportunities to the price of beer at BMO, so it's no surprise that while TFC's playoff hopes fade for this year, MLSE is pushing hard to install a natural grass surface to make the players happy and maybe even to quiet the rising, very vocal disappointment of TFC's most loyal supporters.
Ryan Keay, president of TFC supporter group U-Sector says "there are a few problems with the Field Turf. Firstly, a lot of players prefer grass, and TFC has missed out on players because of the field. In addition, it leads to inconsistent play, because the ball just doesn't react to the turf like it would with grass. Bringing in real grass means that we can compete for players on a level playing field with other teams in MLS."
But this is about more than whether or not TFC will find itself battling for first place instead of a last playoff spot next year. In order to fulfill the community-use mandate agreed upon with the city when the stadium was first built, MLSE has to foot the bill to move the winter dome from BMO to nearby Lamport Stadium, turning it into a year-round facility in addition to building a new soccer field in South Etobicoke.
This new combination of facilities means community use for the fields in question will increase from 4800 to 7700 hours per year. The downside is that the new soccer field is outside of the area where athletics facilities are the most scarce, in the downtown core. The upside is that Lamport will be receiving some 1.2 million in desperately needed renovations to it's crumbling architecture.
Miller opponents are quick to bash his support of this project partly probably because when it comes to TFC, he's a fan before he's the Mayor. You can easily find him on any given game day, overpriced beer in hand, hurling invectives at the pitch. However, it's really hard to ignore that despite the reduced community use at BMO itself, this project really is win-win. The city doesn't have to pay a dime on an already quite profitable investment, community hours have increased, and the fans can look forward to seeing top-flight players and teams, once hesitant to play in our home by the lake.
In the meantime, with renovations to BMO hopefully beginning in the winter months, TFC supporters will have to brace themselves for a long off-season of waiting, and dreaming of the sweet smell of grass come April.
Comments (67)
We need grass!
the field turf is worn out after 2.5 seasons, even though the company says it's supposed to last 7-8. Also, there are some studies in the US that suggest the mix of rubber and other product in field turf fields are actually bad for the health of players, especially in the heat of summer.
As long as MLSE is paying for the whole conversion, as they are, and the community use is replicated and expanded, as it will be, then this is a great move.
I don't really think it's a massive difference in winter to have games moved to Lamport. Lamport is closer to where people live. So instead of trekking down to the wasteland of the Ex in the winter, people can more easily go to Lamport and play there.
This should be a no-brainer and will pass the vote of city council. I can't see any real downside from the city's perspective and it would be political suicide for a councillor to strike down a proposal that has wide appeal among the voters.
It would be a real shame if grass was put in BMO. The construction of this facility was funded in large part by the taxpayers of Toronto (and Canada for that matter). If grass is installed it will cease to be a shared use facility, and will exist the same way that the Rogers Center and the ACC do (professional teams only).
I play Ultimate Frisbee at BMO, and I can vouch for the fact that the stadium is well used by the citizens of Toronto. There are sports played night after night there, throughout the fall and the winter (it is used all year round).
In terms of other options for indoor fields, there really aren't that many. There is the hangar at downsview (quite a hike on the TTC), varsity stadium, at occasionally the turf field at UCC. Otherwise, there aren't very many options in Toronto to play sports indoors, and even fewer that are easy to get to on the TTC.
Public usage that goes on at BMO would be moved to Lamport which would undergo a major overhaul which would include year around usage (ie. bubble).
It still doesn't change the fact that there is one less field for people to play on. Lamport is not a new stadium, and it too is used extensively, although not in the winter.
Paul. MLSE is *ADDING* a field for community use in its proposal. In addition to upgrading Lamport, it's building a new facility in the west end.
MORE community use would result, not less.
Has there ever been a study done that proves the fake turf is bad for joints? I know hard surfaces are bad but it's not that hard. I play ultimate on it and have had no problems with it.
Yes exactly. In "south etobicoke". There are lots of facilities in etobicoke/missisauga already and there are almost none downtown (or at least within a 20-30 minute streetcar ride).
Downsview has great facilities but it's pretty damn difficult to get to unless you have a car (easily 30-40 mins on the subway from downtown, then a 20 mins bus ride, then at least a 20-30 min walk).
The plan is to limit the impact to those that use the facility for other purposes. You really didn't address that in your comment.
Fair enough if you do use the field but I don't see why your frisbee game should be held in a dome inside a stadium that holds 20,000 which was built with the intention of being the national soccer stadium. The fact that many players on our national team have refused to play on the shoddy surface is a bit emabarassing.
And correct me if I'm wrong but outside of a Genesis concert last year and Bill Clinton's speaking engagement, there haven't really been any other public events held at BMO Field.
The size of the stadium is really not that important, even though by most standards it is pretty small. The issue is that public money from taxpayers funded the construction with the intention that it was to be a shared-use facility. If grass is put in, then it will cease to be available for that.
Keep in mind that TFC is owned by MLSE, and they're a private organization. They sell tickets, overpriced beer, merch, etc, and make a killing already on the backs of the people of Toronto. Why should our tax dollars go towards supporting what is already a highly profitable enterprise. Perhaps is MLSE wanted the stadium to be professional use only they should have ponied up the money upfront to buy the stadium and outfit it with grass in the first place.
The City of Toronto makes money from BMO (as well as MLSE, as you pointed out) - drawing the national team, and more high profile friendlies will only boost revenue for the city. And as I pointed out in the article, community use of BMO will not cease, but will be reduced from current hours. Lamport will become year round, providing you and your ultimate frisbee team with a place to play, if you can't grab time at BMO next season. There's also Cherry Beach...
It is essentially going to cease, since it will be reduced from around 7000 hours per year to something like 300-600.
Ultimate being ultimate, we will find places to play whether in the snow or not. The travesty here is the fact that Torontonians are losing access to a great resource, after paying for the lion's share of it. It's as if a large park in the downtown core is building a ten foot high wrought iron fence around it.
From wikipedia: With the total costs in the realm of $62 million ($72 million including land), contributions came from multiple sources. MLSE contributed $8 million towards the construction of the stadium and $10 million towards securing the naming rights of the stadium. The Canadian Federal Government contributed $27 million, with Ontario's government adding an additional $8 million. Toronto paid $9.8 million, and has the ownership of the stadium.
So you'd like to turn down MLSE's money and the additional benefit that an added facility will have to the city because it will be easier for you to get to your weekly Ultimate Frisbee game?
The city's contribution to the original play was basically limited to the transfer of the land (and what else were they going to do with it???). Although MLSE/TFC benefited from the deal, the real reason the stadium was built was the serve the Canadian Soccer Association and for use at the 2007 FIFA u-20s. Since the surface has been pretty much destroyed in less than half the time it was supposed to last (largely based on the year round community use that you are lamenting the possible loss of) it's been rendered almost useless for that. Players won't play on it. Whether they are overreacting (and they very well might be) doesn't matter. The bottom line is the same.
So, Toronto lost out on the chance to host national team games (only four -- two men's and two women's -- in three years) and it struggles to attract bigger name club teams (without a massive financial incentive). Canada is planning on bidding to host the 2015 Women's World Cup and, as it stands now, Toronto would be unlikely to host the final. That would be a shame for the thousands of young girls that play the sport in this city (who would miss out on a once in a lifetime chance to be inspired by truly spectacular athletic role models) as well as for the loss of economic benefit that such an event would bring to the city.
Making Toronto a liveable and vibrant city requires a balancing of priorities. You are right to imply that it would be a shame for us to forget about community access to recreation facilities. That's why it's insane for the city to turn down a chance to add a facility at no cost. I'm sorry, but the added benefit of having more fields available, especially in the winter, more than makes up for the extra 10 minutes it's going to take the Annex-set to get to their Ultimate Frisbee game. It's not like Islington is in Alberta.
Studies are limited, but those that have been done show that FieldTurf decreases "impact" injuries (concussions, broken bones, etc) but increases "stress" injuries (pulled muscles, sprains, etc.).
As such it is ideal for community recreation (weekend warriors aren't as likely to push themselves as hard as a pro athlete, and are therefore less likely to have a stress injury. So the moderate increase in those types of problems is more than made up for by the fact that there are less injuries of a more serious nature).
You are effectively missing my argument. It really isn't that Toronto shouldn't have, or couldn't have, world class soccer games here in the city, or whether or not people mind traveling to go to community games (trust me, I do this a lot anyways).
The issue here, is that if you say something, i.e. this will be a community use facility, and obtain a serious amount of taxpayer funding so that it can be shared, that it should remain like that, not just for the 2 years or whatever that BMO has been open for.
It's amazing how fast these things are forgotten when your lame-duck mayor is a TFC fan.
I think this should go ahead. But why all the secrecy about the "south Etobicoke" field? I want specifics if this deal is going to go down.
Paul...to use the old cliché, you're arguing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. By taking a unbending "yeah, but they said it would be this so it must be so" stance your dismissing out of hand the OPPORTUNITY to improve the situation of community recreation access for everyone. You've yet to address that point. Why should the people of Toronto turn down the chance to get a new facility built? How does that benefit this city?
"Why should the people of Toronto turn down the chance to get a new facility built? How does that benefit this city?"
Because he likes playing frisbee there.
at first I thought it was a case of the professional players whinging but having played a competative game on this surface for the first time 2 weeks agao I have to confess the stress it put on my body was far above anything I have ever received from playing on grass - my joints and lower back took twice as long to recover.
If the city wants to want a soccer team to be in the playoffs (by attracting better players) they need to put grass in at BMO field
Thank you Duane for the information about MLSE's plans.
As for these arguments, well Paul is correct that it is unfortunate that the community will lose access to BMO after playing the lions share to build the stadium under the conception that it was a mixed use facility for TFC and the community. In a sense MLSE is getting almost exclusive use of BMO on the cheap. In addition, Duane, your stereotyping of Ultimate players as the "annex set" (which is untrue as people from all across Toronto are involved in the sport) is unfair and unnecessary. Also, accusing ultimate players of disagreeing with the BMO move solely for convenience sake is disingenuous, as the city PAID for this stadium for that very purpose.
Nevertheless, if MLSE's plans are as listed in the 24th supporters blog then I think Paul is thinking a bit backwards. If MLSE is committed to improving Lamport Stadium and bringing in field turf to Lakeshore collegiate (a 20 minute bus ride from Kipling station), then the community is still being served by a winter dome and a Toronto highschool is gaining a top of the line turf. Sure, its unfair that we won't get the access to BMO but this replacement alternative will give back even more to the city. As long as MLSE does not fix Lamport on the cheap and then leave the rest for the city to fix then I am on board with this proposal.
Not only make players happy... but let's also not embarass ourselves with this fake stuff. I mean really, who in the world of football playes with artificial stuff??
On a side note... TFC!!!
The benefit doesn't seem so great to me. A "south Etobicoke" field would (more than likely) be pretty inconvenient to access whereas the location of BMO field is excellent for anybody living downtown. There are already a handful of options like this - recreational fields in outlandish locations - that I would never consider using, whereas BMO field holds a lot of appeal.
To reduce public access by 85-95% would be a pretty serious blow. I don't feel the sacrifice is justified by another field that takes 1+ hr. to reach from downtown.
And why DON'T we make Lamport into an all-sport facility? Just put a bubble there!
Put REAL turf at BMO, care for it over the winter with the bubble on and let's move on....
Toronto did just fine without a crap soccer team and all the drunks and losers that it attracts.
Turn it into a park exclusively for the community, let the "beautiful game" and all the cowardly little girls that can't play on anything but grass go somewhere else.
No big loss, Toronto will survive.
Did any of you naysayers actually take the time to read the proposal? The "south etobicoke" location you seem to despise is a 12 minute drive from bmo field. Lamport stadium (where they intend to erect your precious "frisbee dome") is even less than that.
Would MLSE be getting a deal if this passes considering the public financing used to build the stadium? Sure but according to the proposal they are still resposible for a portion of the maintainence costs for the new facilities moving forward. While I recognize that their motives are purely in their own interests I think the proposal is a fair compromise. I have yet to see a compelling argument here to why this shouldn't go through. Bitching about travelling an additional 5 minutes to your frisbee game in january doesn't cut it.
I love the condescension towards ultimate from people who just get drunk and watch wimpy guys in short-shorts fake knee-injuries for ninety minutes. That is, if playing on anything but grass isn't too taxing for them.
I take it you're not a soccer fan? Last time i checked 20,000 people weren't coming out week after week to watch people play frisbee.
I love how people bring tax dollars into the equation. Do you know how much money the city gets from TFC games??? They get a piece of the pie, not to mention they estimated Real and the All Star game brought in more than 100 million to the city. Also, the city didn't put much money into this stadium and it was probably one of the few things Miller got right. The only time this stadium is bad for tax payers, is when it has a bunch of beer bellies playing soccer on it, or the folks tossing around a frisbie.
Oh... and baseball and football fans are drunk and retarded??
BMO is already a community space. No need to be bicker over grass or no grass. Let's be happy we have a stadium at all!
TFC!
You probably live in a field of dogcrap...ohhh wait you live in Parkdale...sorry I probably touched a nerve.
Get a life you whining 20-something yuppies. When was the last time you sprained anything but your BlackBerry finger playing your so-called "ultimate" sport? Google and you'll find out why nobody cares: http://vimeo.com/358109
Wow the comment section of blogto hits a new low. Perhaps we should remove ultimate from this since it seems a lot of soccer fans have a hate on for it. The field is also used by *gasp* soccer teams too. Whether we are out cheering for the little league soccer, and competitive junior girls soccer games that preceed ours, you can't deny the use of the stadium as it was originally invisioned. Go down there one night maybe, it's pretty much guaranteed to find people from Toronto playing there.
Lamport is also nice, as is the south etobicoke site. For the 2 mil or whatever the city could easily make these upgrades themselves and keep BMO as a community site too. Based on the population explosion with all the new condos downtown I'm sure there is enough demand. Keep an eye on who benefits. In this case, it's MLSE getting exclusive use of a 60 mil facility for 13 mil.
I think everyone has also forgotten about the new park on Bremner that just opened last month. I believe there are three fields at that location for public use. Does that please everyone including the ultimate frisbee guys who think a 5 min bus ride is to long?
I am kind of glad that the folks here aren't the ones to decide this. Then again, the folks that are deciding this... hahaha.
I would only like to say that there are valid concerns here. The city is a big place. Ensuring there is bookable, accessible park space for all is no easy task. That's why MLSE has to pony up MORE and why the vote may still be no.
Shouldn't we all agree then, that the decision is:
Is the extra that MSLE puts in outside the core compensate enough to put out the residents of the core?
Paul's point about MLSE getting exclusive use of BMO is very relevant, I think. Council should take that into account. What is Toronto's ROI (city's take on TFC games plus proposed improvements over taxpayers original costs? (also: keep in mind that property taxes only put in $10m of the $60)) on BMO? We're not going to figure that out in a comment box, but maybe MLSE shouldn't get $72m BMO field for 13m construction + 1.2m renos at lamport.
And leave Bremner out of it. Living in CityPlace, I paid for that. And I really doubt my low-floor neighbours on that side of Spadina are going to tolerate domes for winter use. :)
There is an interesting link: http://wx.toronto.ca/inter/it/newsrel.nsf/0/e5c68d1b6129e3038525740500793be0?OpenDocument&Click=
From TFA:
BMO Field, home of Major League Soccer's Toronto FC and Canada's National Soccer teams, realized an operating profit of $900,000 during eight months of operations in 2007, resulting in the City of Toronto and MLSE each earning $450,000 in accordance with the operating agreement. The operating results will also contribute to a further investment of $300,000 on various projects to enhance BMO Field and the overall fan experience.
I imagine that a percentage of that revenue came in the form of field rentals, which will now be close to 0. This means that the total figure of $450,000 could be much lower than that.
This puts the payback in terms of ticket sales for the public part of the stadium at something like 130 years. ($52 mil paid back at $400,000 per year)
I agree that questioning the amount MLSE is committing to the new facilities versus their original investment in BMO Field is valid.
Again I refer to the proposal where it states they are also partially responsible for the ongoing maintenance cost of the new facilities. So your numbers are a bit off there.
Regardless of what revenues will be "lost" at BMO due to reduced community use, they are are being made up with the other facilities. Loss of winter use of BMO is being made up by Lamport and loss of summer use of BMO is being made up with the new field in South Etobicoke - in fact, since community hours overall are INCREASING, it is a safe assumption that community use revenues will do the same.
The only thing these 20,000 idiots seem to show up for is the chance to be the ignorant violent pieces of garbage that they always wanted to be but could never otherwise get away with.
Someone with a brain realized they could make money by providing the excuse of a soccer game for these retards, and presto, you have TFC.
Nothing like giving people what they want. A chance to get plastared and throw toilet paper onto the field and batteries into the stands. All for just 50 bucks. What a great addition to Toronto. What a joke.
At least at baseball or football or hockey or basketball or basicaly ANY OTHER PRO SPORT EVENT, you can actually enjoy the game without having to deal with these cowardly little bitches chucking flares.
I happened to use BMO for “community use” as well but it doesn’t take long to see why that’s not practical to share with a pro team given the circumstances. I haven’t seen too many adverts for public shoot-around or open-skate at the ACC lately.
MLSE’s proposal looks pretty close to fair, with maybe a little bit of hard ball to be played by the city. The city did front part of the cost from the initial construction, but they continue to derive revenue from the events that are at the facility making this a money maker.
With grass there are going to be more events, which in turn is going to give the city more revenue. Community use is staying the same (but shifting locations). While it does suck to lose **partial** use of the facility close to downtown there are other locations around that can subsequently pick up the slack. Nobody will have to cry about ultimate Frisbee being cancelled.
First off, if you are just being a troll, you are pretty terrible at it. Judging by your name, you would appear to be a Celtic fan which, last time I checked, was a football team in Glasgow. At the very least it implies that you are Irish, and probably have some sort of respect for the game of football (or soccer if you are confused, which it appears you are), Gaelic football, and rugby. If for some reason this is simply a typo on your part, I understand because it's easy for morons to hit the wrong keys on their keyboard.
Judging by your comment about how dangerous it is to attend TFC games at BMO (trust me, I get stabbed almost every game, it's getting to be excessive), only goes to show me that you have never set foot in the stadium during a match, but rather hate all things soccer. Well allow me, if I may, to interject your moronic post;
What happened last year at the rogers centre? Are you having problems remembering why alcohol is no longer allowed to be sold in the 500 levels on Toonie Tuesdays? Well allow me to remind you! There were several dozen arrests and ejections from a game (that I had attended) in a section that was only 3 or 4 sections away from mine. Young drunken morons began to fight with each other, and eventually with the police. There had been several other incidents earlier in the season with fights in the stands which led to the all-out ban of alcohol in the 500's for Toonie Tuesdays.
There are also regularly fights at the ACC for Leafs games, and Argo games as well. Drinking is not unique to TFC games, especially when the amount of incidents that have happened at TFC games compared to other sporting events is much lower.
As for the argument that the city is losing community usage at BMO, well the majority of the usage is being transferred to Lamport when they get the bubble over the field. Don't try and tell me that you were able to rent BMO on a regular basis anytime after Oct. 31st, seeing as the TFC season goes that late. Your Ultimate Hardcore Non-Contact Frisbee League can continue to operate on the other side of the train tracks just as it has before, alongside the Full Contact Pussy Sport of Sawker. I know it won't be as cool to tweet your friends about how cool you are for playing in our National Soccer Stadium, but it's not about that, right?
You just have the tax payers in mind. THAT'S why your argument makes so much sense with me. My mistake.
I must apologize to BadBhoy, The blog wasn't loading the replies into the right side of the comments, and your name was beside supers post, and supers name by yours.
After re-opening this page in Firefox (fucking IE!), everything is lining up correctly. I see that BadBhoy gets it, and super does not. The rest of my argument still stands!
Um, we should like totally like fill it with water you know, and then you know we can um stage like naval battles in it like yeah.
Hyperbole is used by the man who has no legitimate argument, and must resort to sensationalism in order to get his pointless voice heard in an attempt to legitimize himself.
Super, you are clearly versed in the nuances of hyperbole.
Super: You mean football or hockey or baseball fans DON"T get plastered and act retarded during their games neither???
They fooled ME!!!! :o
Just for futures, don't diss another fans sport, cause it'll inevitably come back to kick you back. Thanks.
You got to love these soccer hating posters who have nothing better to do but find soccer related articles and post your crap comments. To all you soccer haters that predicted that pro soccer could never make it here in Toronto take your crying somewhere else. TFC is here to stay lets take that crap surface out of BMO field and put down the natural stuff and to the rest of you all I have to say is that the Rogers Center is down the street take your crying there, BMO=Soccer end of story!
Just an update (thought it looks I got scooped, thanks macmuffin) City Council passed the motion 29-0, grass is coming to BMO field next year.
Sweet. I have to admit that I second guessed my original prediction that this would be a cake walk after reading some of the posts here.
I sincerely hope that those who will be losing BMO for community use have their concerns addressed but this was still the right decision. Can't wait to smell the grass from the stands next season!
I have nothing against ultimate players. But this news is AMAZING!
Just watch now, Rogers centre is gonna wanna jump on the bandwagon. And why not?! If it'll help get a decent crowd out there..
Only if Roger's pay's up! but i'm sure they'll add some sort of "grass fee" to all Rogers customers.
On that note, I will be playing one of my last games there tonight. All the trolls should come down and check out a game (little league soccer or otherwise) at BMO before they're gone for good. It might possibly be your last chance to check it out from field level (unless it's a venue for Doors Open Toronto next year, that would be ironic).
I hope they move the turf at BMO over in addition to the bubble (you think BMO is worn out, go checkout Lamport).
I keep repeating to myself: I will not get involved in flamewars on blogto, I will not get involved in flamewars on blogto ...
Hey... the grass looks alike actual but who knows there may be a carpet. And if BMO fields are filled with the actual grass.. these looks a fresh and giving the sportsperson a lush meadows to play around..huh!!
Wow you are really something else. You label everyone who disagrees with you as a troll and yet you refuse to acknowledge that anything positive could come from this decision. You only refer back to you own selfish motives. Nor did you actually read the proposal. MLSE will be replacing the turf at lamport.
"Furthermore, at a minimum, MLSE is guaranteeing that MLSE will pay the City an amount of
$50,000 annually (escalated by CPI annually) to a Lamport Capital Reserve Fund to be set up by
the City for replacement of the bubble and field turf at Lamport."
Your nuts, I've played at both BMO and Lamport this season and Lamport's turf is much better then BMO. get over yourself.
I'm just a guy, who live in Toronto. That's all.
You mistake what I said. I'm not labelling the people who disagree with me as trolls. I'm labelling the people saying things like "go play your frisbee in the park" or "soccer fans are a bunch of drunken yahoos" as trolls.
I'm happy for the TFC fans. You have your grass. Toronto has a world class soccer stadium and all that.
But is it selfish to lament the fact that community organizations are being kicked out of a stadium that was supposed to be shared (granted yes, I play one hour there once a week)? or is it selfish to kick a bunch of community sports organizations out so TFC players can run on grass?
The community needs have been met if not exceeded with installation of the bubble at lamport and the new field in etobicoke. The turf will be replaced and maintained at lamport. The available community hours should increase. The distance from bmo to lamport is negligible.
So i can only imagine that you simply prefer one location over the other despite a more than reasonable compromise. That is selfish. And stomping your feet and whining "but they said we could use bmo field!" is just childish.
Great move. I hope people will understand this. You cannot play football properly (the kind you play with your feet, as opposed to hands) on an artificial surface. There something called sliding tackle for example, that cannot be performed on a plastic carpet. Also the players run quite a long distance in 90 minutes, about 10km each, so it gets really hard on their joints to be bouncing on a carpet atop concrete slabs. It's different with baseball or American rugby football where the players simply fight for a few seconds, and then there is 2-3 minutes of huffing and puffing.
All plastic carpets in stadiums should be burned and the people who sell them publicly executed in the stadium at half time on natural grass.
Turf lasts a long time, The real reason they are switching to grass is because of one whinny soccer player. The Detroit Lions practice on the exact same turf and have been doing it for years, same size dome. I work for the company that built B.M.O. dome and we are fixing it to be placed over a new location ( grass ) its about a 30 thousand dollar reno because of one guy that scuffed his knee. Turf is healthy, the rubber is made of old tires.
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