Toronto Rocks With Eddie and the Boys

The trouble is that Torontonians will always go mad for a well-known band but they offer little support to the amazing indie talent we have. All the local acts would much rather play the suburbs it seems.

I disagree, Jennn. Indie music gets a lot of support from Torontonians, in comparison to other cities. I'm at way more indie shows than non-indie shows. The problem is that it is way too difficult to weed out the quality acts to check out due to the sheer quantity of bands that play in Toronto on a daily basis at dozens of venues. And speaking as both a music fan and as a former booker, I've seen a lot of crappy indie bands over the years that just don't warrant the support.

I think it's unfair to attempt to equate the two. It's like trying to compare commercial radio to community radio. Both are good at what they do, but for very different reasons. I've seen equal enthusiasm for indie bands as I saw at the Pearl Jam show the other night. Just on a different scale.

And I don't quite get what you mean that indie bands would rather play the suburbs. I know very few local bands that would rather play a suburb than one of the downtown bars.

Indie vs. non-indie? Come on, one can support a major-label act and still have enough support left over for Broken Social Scene and Mr. Something Something.


I do have a couple other comments: why is a review about a show going up almost a week later? It's such old news.


My second comment: I think it's totally fair to compare community/campus radio and commercial radio. Community radio is programmed by people who love music and it's support comes from listeners and various forms of funding. Commercial radio is programmed by focus groups and computer programs and its funding mainly comes from advertisers. It is designed to make you buy a new car and listen to bands like Pearl Jam.

Petra, yes, one can support a major label act and still have room for indie acts. I do it all the time, have for over 10 years. My support does not change based on whether it is an indie band or a major label band. If I like a band, their status or designation isn't a factor.

To clarify the post, though, It wasn't intended to be a show review (which all the other media did), it was meant to be a show experience review. So the timing of it is irrelevant.

And as someone who works in commercial radio, not all stations are programmed by focus groups and computer programs. And there are some that continue to support and foster up and coming talent. You just have to look for them.

disclaimer: i'm a jaded toronto indie artist.

what radio stations in toronto are still supporting local indie talent? what stations are letting their dj's control the flow and not "program directors" -- i want to know!

Edge 102 and Mix 99.9 both support indie talent. Edge has the Indie Club every weekend, and Mix has the annual songwriting competition which sees thousands of entries from indie artists with decent cash prizes that go toward recording costs. Although the support may not be as much as indie artists and indie music supporters would like, the support is there.

True, DJs do not control what is played. That's why they're not called DJs in commercial radio, but announcers. It's been a very long time since jocks were able to play what they want. Commercial radio is precisely that ... commercials are what generate money for the station, so they're going to play the music that the general population is going to tune into, generating the ad revenue that pays the employees.

And it's not just program directors that control the flow. There's an entire team that selects the music that is added on a weekly basis. Much of it is based on what the listeners want to hear.

The reason that I said it is unfair to compare the two is mainly due to the listeners. Commercial radio listeners, for the most part, aren't indie music fans, and never will be. Community and campus radio exists for those who seek more than just the standard fare. And I hate to say it, but indie music fans and supporters are the minority in the big picture.

There is hope though. This may all change as the amalgamations of the big labels continue, and new artists are no longer being developed, so for anything new, listeners will have to seek out indie artists.

I think what stations like Edge and Mix do is certainly more than most stations in other parts of the country do. While I was trying to submit my indie CD to a station a few years ago (in another part of the country) I was told that they weren't accepting any new indie submissions. In fact, they weren't accepting any new submissions, period. They were a classic rock station so therefore, no new music. And I quote, "MAYBE if the Hip or the Stones release something new, we'll play it". So I sympathise with any artist trying get on the radio. Commercial radio isn't going to go away and their strict formatting only seems to get worse as time goes on. I personally gave up on Canadian radio a long time ago and started listening to the BBC. Oddly enough, I hear more Canadian indie music there than I do on Canadian radio. In fact I think online radio stations and podcasting are the way to go for any indie artist.

Oddly enough, Pearl Jam have fullfilled their contractual obligations and parted ways with their record company. And unless things have changed, I believe their next album will be released independently.

I am also a jaded indie artist.

I think that the whole "indie fans are different than mainstream fans" is a farce. Indie kids, in my experience, are JUST as close minded as mainstream fans, and listen to whats "cool" or "hip" or what their friends are into. They ARE much more grass roots than mainstream fans, in as much as they go by word of mouth and pay attention to the underground, and I do appreciate their support for the underdog. What I hate is when they abandon an artist because any else has heard of them. In short, elitism serves no one, and a TRUE fan of music will appreciate what everyone has to offer, regardless of genre.

Just my $.02.

can you even say "indie fans" anymore? it isn't a state of being any more -- it's been usurped as a sound by the big media and being pushed around by puppet labels to the masses and independant. take bands like The Arcade Fire, Death From Above..., not mainstream music. that's the indie sound, captured on a label and released to you on clearchannel's programming list for you to enjoy. indie is dead, if only because you can't be indie any more with out a label behind you. what's the new alternate state of concious? i don't know..."grassroots"? (sounds a bit to folk to me) "unsigned"? (has such bad connotations around it) ahh! i know: self-sustaining, possibly with a distro deal. it's a mouth full, but it'll never be snapped up as a description for a sound, to be usurped by the major labels, all fancied up and sold back to us as the real deal.

i also wanted to say something to zeke. dude, there's a great book out there called "How to Make it in the New Music Business" by Robert Wolff. check that out for ways to get your material inserted into big radio station rotation. the jist of it is: you'll never get your CD even HEARD by a program manager without represenstation, so don't even try. radios renew their programming twice, maybe three times a year. that's it. so even with representation you have tops three shots each year to get your stuff on a channel. it's an interesting book (not a bible by any means) with some interesting ideas to circumventing the mass media machine that is radio (and folks here's a real surprise to most people: it's radio that runs the music business. always has been. it's starting to shift now that we have online, unregulated broadcasting though.) he talks about using some of that word-of-mouth and fan support power, and a little of your own cash, to help force you way into the rotation. interesting idea. i haven't tried it yet myself...

while you're at you might want to read "All You Need To Know About The Music Business" by Donald Passman. it's a sobering look at how hard it is to make minimum wage as a performed. and why successful performers end up starting labels.

Here's my suggestion to Zeke: They're interesting books. But really? Stop trying to "make it" in the music business. Just be happy creating and performing.

I think Zeke's post may have been misinterpreted. Nowhere did he indicate that he was trying to "make it" in the music industry. He merely mentioned submitting his CD to radio stations in the past. But I do like the reading suggestions that resulted. I'd add Mark Makoway's Indie Band Bible, a great resource for any independent musician.

And it does happen occasionally in commercial radio that music directors (not program directors ... they deal with the station as a whole) do meet with artists or their managers directly. If what you have is good enough, it'll stand a chance, regardless if you're signed to Sony or to Joe's Indie Label.

I agree fully that elitism doesn't help anyone, whether they are musicians or not. With elitism comes closed mindedness, and when minds are closed, who knows what they'll miss.

I agree, and I think that when I said "Don't try to make it", I actually wasn't referring to Zeke saying he wanted to, but to ignore any advice that claims to tell you how to do that.

as neil peart put it in road music: what is "making it" anyways? to every person it means something different. me, i'd like to be involved in music full time. to drop the day job. i don't think zeke mentioned what his version of "making it" was...just that he wanted to get some airtime on a commercial radio station.

zeke: i've often thought of packing up and heading to the musical utopia of great britain. everything i hear now that strikes me as new, interesting (and even commercial) is coming from england. maybe it's my blurry perspective from way over here though...

Remember when I said that it is possible for an indie band to be seen by a commercial radio station in Toronto ... just a few days after this debate, we had an indie band from BC (yes, they weren't from Toronto, although they got their start while going to school at U of T) come into one of the stations I work with. They played a 3 song set in our lounge area for a group of people spanning all departments, and it was quite good. And it's quite possible they'll be added into rotation at sometime in the near future. So it can happen ...

Oh, and I checked into what the last year was that a Toronto DJ on commercial radio had full control over what they played during regular rotation, and it was around 1978 (excluding any type of weekly specialty type shows).