Eat & Drink
Would you support a "baby tax" at Toronto restaurants?
Making the rounds over the last few days is a story about a London restaurant that has started to charged a "baby tax" for families that want to bring young kids along for dinner. There's no word on what the age cut-off is, but the fee itself was rather nominal at £3. Could this ever happen here? Are these little bundles of shit and joy really that much of nuisance?
On New York-based site, Gothamist, poll respondents were roughly 65 per cent in favour of implementing something similar in their home city. But that's New Yorkers — and thus not much of a shock. What did come as a surprise, however, is the degree of support the concept had when I took it to our Twitter followers earlier today. Although there were some strong voices of dissent, lots of Toronto diners thought it was a great idea. Some went so far as to say that they'd pay a tax to quarantine these little creatures from their favourite restaurants.
So a poll of our own.
Photo from Lars Plougmann on Flickr
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The reason we love Greece, is that children are welcomed everywhere.
A tax on swearing adults would be great though ;-)
When your in a public space filled with people enjoying a mean and conversation and your kid starts screaming your affecting everyone.
A few weeks ago, we sat near a dude (read "hipster") who was dining alone, but constantly on his cellphone swearing like a sailor very loudly. Dude even dropped the forbidden "C" word. Our server loudly commented on how every patron should be as considerate as our little boy. Instant huge tip.
A bad dining experience is as dependent on adult patrons as children.
The problem is that it's too hard to have a kid right now.
I'm sure we'd be more than happy to dig into our disposable income that we've saved on childcare.
Seriously though, this question has been raised because people have lost all common sense about what is and isn't appropriate for a young child or baby. Family friendly establishments or 5:30 dinners? Bring on the tots, and teach them how to be a good restaurant patron. Absolutely! 9:30 dinner sitting at a cavernous restaurant where people are likely celebrating intimate dinners and special occasions? Hire a babysitter, FFS.
A commenter suggested it would be better to have a ban on kids in certain restaurants. Let me tell you I have experienced this and will never eat at that restaurant again and I purposely go out of my way to disuade anyone from eating there. Any tax on kids would soon be revoked when the social media storm it would produce started putting restaurants out of business.
To @merits - really? Every single person with a child choose to have one, only a dullard would suggest such a thing. I would guess that you rarely feel compassion.
Maybe any 'taxes' collected, should this ever be implemented, could be used in customer service training.
maybe it will prevent people from making these things.
blah blah blah ... as a middle aged woman, i hear this all the freakin' time.
And everyone saying people should be more understanding of the challenges of dining with young kids, you like servers who help entertain your kids (because they certainly don't have a million other things to do)...you're the people who let your kids wander around the restaurant while you linger over coffee for 2 hours, aren't you? Maybe people would be more accepting of kids in restaurants if parents would actually attempt to discipline them or be willing to leave dinner early if the kids are acting up. Yes, that's right - willing to sacrifice YOUR enjoyment of the evening because of YOUR kid, rather than expecting everyone else to make that sacrifice.
If it belongs to you = your
Also, I agree with others, if your child is acting out in any way that is unacceptable and disturbing others, it's time to take them outside. Children need to learn how to behave in public, otherwise you end up with even more douchebags than we have now, and that's something we can all agree on wanting less of.
All of you haters sound like the whining, crying babies. You disgust me.
Full disclosure: I do have a baby, and he has been taken to the occasional brunch, but he's so cute that I'm pretty sure that at least once he's inspired a nearby hipster couple to immediately procreate in Aunties and Uncles' restroom. I probably wouldn't take him to a restaurant for dinner unless I knew the owners were cool with it, and definitely not to some bollixy romantic dining spot.
Heck, I'd pay extra to eat in a restraunt that doesn't allow kids at all.
Baby people: eat early, teach your kid right. Eat later, get a sitter.
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ha ha ha your enormously bloated self-importance and laughable sense of entitlement are noted!
Now get back to your campaign to ban children from parks so you can sit on your blanket in peace with your guitar and practice Grizzly Bear covers.
Babies should be banned from planes too.
Yes, they are a lifestyle choice. So is not having kids. You have no more "rights" in public than my family does so suck it up...
I get there are a LOT of angry parents out there who are upset their social life is fucked, but don't take it out on people who don't have small kids anymore by refusing to change habits.
A Tax? no. Going to a restaurant where kids should go - what a GOOD idea. Eating at the bar at jack astor or whatever isn't a family dining unless you like potty mouths and beer talk.
And if your charging a fee for kids, then if I hear someone swearing or being vulgar, I expect them to be charged as well. Oh, and as a former server, if the reason for the tax is because children are messy, I'm going to disagree. If my kids drop food, I always pick up what I see and after years of serving, there are a lot of adults who are pretty disgusting when they eat!
but this is just crazy.. and would never happen in Toronto.
there is already a stupid lie about how those garbage shacks in the burbs like the chalet or mcdicks or jack astors or whatever have 'family values' or are 'family friendly', which we all know is a lie anyways. dont give that lie any more validity than it already has, simply by those places having parking lots.
Practically speaking, how are restaurants supposed to know how old the kids are? They can't ask for a baby's photo ID. What happens when parent simply about their kid's age?
Charging a baby tax seems like a ridiculous plan, essentially "Let's punish all parents for the behavior for a small minority of them." It's the responsibility of the restaurant to decide if and when diners should be asked to leave, ie when they (regardless of their age) are negatively impacting their other customer.
Rather than whining (quite baby-like I might add) that your "beautiful evening was ruined" (how many of you has this ACTUALLY happened to?) you should complain to your waiter or the manager, if they receive enough complaints they should ask the offenders to leave, and if they don't ask, don't go back (and don't leave a tip) and maybe they'll get the message.
I'd rather a tax be applied to purchases of stroller SUV's that take up an inordinate amount of sidewalk and aisle space, or a large surcharge applied to movie tickets for parents that insist on bringing their babies to later matinee/evening screenings.
Your child is not cuuuuuuuuuuuuuute when she's climbing up the back of the banquette and dropping french fries into my hair.
I was reading some comments above and some were saying this tax would encourage better parenting. Absolutely not. A baby is a baby with the inability to fully reason. So a baby will cry or whine no matter the situation, unless they have been conditioned not to cry through other forceful or abusive means which I do NOT condone.
Also, let's say this tax comes to Toronto and a family chooses to pay the tax at a restaurant. What happens if the baby begins to cry and whine? Do we ask them to leave the restaurant in the middle of their meal? I don't think so.
So this idea really is just pure discrimination and money grab opportunities for restaurants.
A better idea would be to setup a smaller room, much like those family washrooms you see in shopping malls, where the parent can take the baby to the side and calm their child down until they are ready to eat again. And if the child is being completely obnoxious by destroying tableware, a stern warning should be allowed by the restaurant and even a charge for damaged property at the management's discretion. I believe this would be more effective than charging a fixed tax before a family is given a chance to dine.
I saw some other comments, what about those teens and adults that are completely obnoxious at restaurants? Swearing, yelling, talking loudly on their phones etc. I've run into those situations more than a baby crying and it's never a pleasant meal especially when someone is swearing like a sailor.
There was one time when I was out eating with friends and a group of teenagers came in drunk. One of them dropped a beer bottle they brought from outside, hiding in their jacket and it smashed on the floor causing a mess and ruckus. My friends and I were exchanging some words with them asking them to leave the establishment and in the confusion the management kicked all of us out of the restaurant thinking we were a part of the group. Now talk about a completely ruined evening at a restaurant!
I'm not here to step on anyone's toes. I realize that there are some with children, some without who choose not to have children and some who do not have children and are just saying incredibly stupid things. For those without children saying stupid things, please step back a little and think about this in the bigger picture. Think about when you were a child, think about your parents and the things they had to deal with when you were a child, think about your future as possibly becoming a parent one day. Think logically.
We try our best to ensure they're good, but occasionally one will melt down or do something that is obviously not something you want to see in a restaurant - running amok, talking too loudly, etc.
I'm super aware of my surroundings and I try my best to ensure we're not imposing on people's dining experience - but c'mon, love the city and the people that make it great - including our ankle-biters!
And next time you're about to chow down on that carpaccio, I apologize in advance for my toddler slapping your ass.
5. Parents have already paid your moronic baby tax, so now what happens?
I eagerly await your dumb dumb answers.
People who like this have to remember that parents have a huge arsenal at thier disposal, especially when they have to pay extra for the privage of taking thier baby out to dinner!
As silly as it sounds, this tax would hopefully make entitled parents remember that their little crying bundles of joy can take away from a restaurant's atmosphere for the rest of the clientele. Hopefully it would be implemented in a way where a restaurant could decide if they're a "family restaurant" (no tax) OR a "fine dining establishment" (tax it up!).
I certainly don't mind if your kid is freaking out at a Jack Astor's or a Mandarin - those restaurants are family friendly, and I'd expect to see kids there. But if you bring your toddler to Scaramouche or Le Select Bistro, you're clearly too emotionally attached to get a sitter (or just couldn't find one). Either find a sitter or a family-friendly restaurant. It's that simple. Not every movie is for kids, and not every restaurant should be for kids too!
Believe me, if parents were more considerate with their restaurant choices on a consistent basis, we wouldn't be having this conversation!
If 3 adults go to a nice restaurant, where 2 of them have a full, 3-course meal, but the third has only a bottle of milk and a jar of smashed peas, which he brought with him, the restaurant would have the right to be annoyed at that customer. If you're going to take up a seat, you should either have to buy something or somehow pay for that real estate! I don't care if you're a baby or an adult. That's what the tax is for!!
In the scenario you've outlined, the two parents had their food, and the restaurant got some kind of reimbursement for wasting a seat on a non-paying "customer". What, exactly, is the problem here?
That being said, I'm not about to start taking my kids to 'fine dining' restaurants, but please don't force me to go to the 'burbs' or eat in chain restaurants. Just because you have kids don't mean you should have to eat shitty food.
If you consider it an 'inconvenience tax', then other annoying diners like loud talkers, drunks or rowdy groups should have to pay it too. I'd like to see you try to enforce that!
Sincerely,
New Dad.
But once you have kids, mother nature instantly blesses you with an amazing new ability: to not hear or notice other people's kids - in a restaurant, at a park, on the subway - anywhere. It cannot be explained. But it happens.
So all you people whining about the babies, suck it up. Once you have kids, it will never ever bother you again.
But, the idea itself is stupid and designed to inflame. A better solution already exists. Simply don't permit children in bars and restuarants after 9pm (with the exception of family restuarants, which you really shouldn't be going to if don't enjoy the company of children). This gives parents the opportunity to patronize the same places as everyone else but gives not-so-child-friendly individuals the opportunity to dine at a later time without being disturbed.
Just like it was when you had smoking and non
OR
As an owner, just have adults only
it's your place, your choice
Some of these comments are nuts. We can't start taxing one segment of the population for the bad behavior of a few. Bad behavior, whether perpetrated by a child, senior or adult should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis by the management.
There are plenty of restaurants where it is already inappropriate to take a baby. Age restrictions are in place for bars. Seems like there are plenty of places where you can be an adult without nary a toddler in site.
I've always said that kids need to be taught how to behave in a restaurant and many parents don't seem to be up to the task (probably because they were never taught).
Yeah, bratty kids are the worst, but sheesh!
Fuck you, you asshole breederbrain. If I were sitting next to you and your spawn in a restaurant I'd be telling the filthiest stories I could think of.
I'm just blown away that so many families can afford to eat out with 2 or 3 spawn in tow! My sis makes over $100k and McDonald's is about the best her brood of 4 ever gets.
Perhaps government should just keep its nose out of private enterprise and let establishments return to 'adults only' venues. No need for a tax. Let the free market sort it out.
Oh, and I'm 44 and never had kids, never wanted them, and never once changed my mind, you patronizing prat. Some of us know our own minds, rather than just do whatever the rest of the human herd does, then justify it after the fact.
"It is people who don't have children who are an eventual drain on society." It doesn't matter children or no children, it's inevitable that you'll wind up being a so-called drain on society. What planet are you from?
The real problem isn't people with kids versus people without kids, but the desire for people to be mutually respectful in public. I shouldn't to talk loudly or swear when I'm eating out (especially in the presence of kids), and parents ought to teach their kids to behave politely in public.
I want me bebe back, bebe back, bebe back ribs tax freee!
I'd happily pay a "childless" tax to avoid having children screaming, crawling under my table, throwing tantrums and/or food while I'm trying to have a night out with friends.
I have a lot of friends with kids; they also chose to socialize their kids early by not taking them to Rainforest cafe or other "kid" places. When they're out, these kids behave themselves accordingly. If parents only take their kids to places like Chuck E Cheese (where running around and screaming is considered acceptable behaviour) and that's all the kid knows, then that's how they'll act when they're out at a "grown up" place.
That's the trade off: you have wonderful little bundles of joy and light....you sacrifice a few brunches and dinners at "adult" restaurants for a few years.
*shrugs*
Seriously, this is a way of trying to get more money from people with kids -- or a way to try and get rid of them so that tables will be filled with adult patrons who might buy wine.
How about a tax is your child acts up, but you get the $3 back if they don't? Would that fly?
A baby tax is silly and elitist.
*And please, if this is implemented, don't take it out on the servers. I'm sure we will not be receiving any monetary gain from that tax. Don't shoot the messenger!
As a side note, what's with the commonly-held and frankly offensive assumption by many here that only mindless, uncultured suburbanites have kids - or that somehow parenthood is something worthy of scorn and punishment? You folks really show your age with these kinds of comments. Get back to us in 5-10 years and we'll see where you're at.
Parents pay for sitters so they can go out and be away from babies. Remember what it was like to spend time with adults?
Leave the brats at home until they can read a menu, order their dinner politely (say please and thank you), and sit quietly and still for 90 minutes. No damn toys at the table or walking around the restaurant either.
The problem is the parents are still adolescents into their 30's as well and are just bad. Maybe we should just make restaurants too expensive for the poors?
Why tax? You mean like a bag tax? I still buy bags and use them to throw out my garbage.
It should be a ban and it should be up to individual restaurants. Why are these things so over thought?! (Beside sthe obvious tax grabs.)
a) The tax is stupid and can't achieve anything good.
b) Some restaurants should impose a minimum age limit, just like clubs. Little kids can be very annoying and ruin the dining experience we're paying for.
c) As a society, however, we should learn to be more tolerant of kids. More patient. I can't stand the little jerks most of the time, but I also recognize that as a serious flaw in my own character and I'm trying to get over it. We were all children at one point and we all made someone cringe at one point. Extend the olive branch to the snot-nosed, take a deep breath, and lets work together.
You people can make all the babies you want... not that I'll ever understand that. In my opinion, having a child is one of the dumbest things anyone could possibly ever do, especially in today's society, with lack of community (takes a village to raise a child, remember?) and social support (look no further than the baby haters on this board).
But whatever. You want to take your nice peaceful life and trade it in for years of screaming, piss, shit, barf, meltdowns, tantrums, incessant whining, ruined possessions, retarded TV shows for the young 'uns (not that the grown up shows are that much better, mind you -- if you people watch that crap, maybe you'll be just fine with Treehouse), garish colours all around you (oooh, kids love cheap plastic shit in neon green and bleeding red and eye-poking yellow), no sleep, no time and no disposable income (hello, daycare, babysitters, loads of plastic shit in neon green, shoes that get ruined every week, gloves that are lost every other day...) -- go forth and procreate. But please -- leave me and other sane people out of it.
But just because you love your kid to pieces, don't expect that everyone else will share this attitude. Here it is: we don't give a damn about your kid. Not one flying fuck. He is your child, your joy, your pain and your responsibility. Go set up in a parent ghetto (aka "the burbs") and take him to Swiss Chalet in your minivan.
That said the tax is dumb. For a nominal fee the parent will feel justified to let his kid disturb everyone else's meal. Kids should just be banned from some places. Your four-year-old doesn't want to be there anyway. He wants to be sliding off a pukishly yellow slide in Mickey Dee's and delighing in the plastic shit thrown in with his Happy Meal. So accompany him there for a great family time out, ha ha. Have a great meal (mmmm, french fries)! See you never!
There, that was easy.
Love, Heather
I work and read this on my break and lunch. I'm not retired like you. Have a great and happy retirement!
Parenting has changed since your time. You should walk a mile in a parent's shoes now. Perhaps you'd understand better instead of blaming them for not knowing how to parent. It's easy to point the finger instead of taking time out to see both sides of the issue. That's my wisdom.
I totally agree with you in that we need to teach our children how to behave in public and especially respect for others. But a lot of parents neglect that hoping tv and school will do it for them.
I don't agree with the tax though as it seems like you are punishing everyone for the sins of the few.
On a side note Heather, I apologize for some ungracious words that I wrote about you in previous posts. It was uncalled for.
I have to tell you I was very surprised when I read your post. It's really the first time I've heard someone of your generation (30something ???) actually say they've been taught and encouraged to be selfish. Having raised our kids in the mid 80s, my husband and I saw the subtle shift in attitude, in the schools etc., but it was so subtle in the early stages that we weren't even sure what we were seeing. There seemed to be an emphasis on self and only self .... not exactly the values we were trying to instill, but being young and inexperienced parents ourselves, we sort of went along with it and said nothing - for a while. (I know how hard it is to go against what you see and hear all around you). I guess it really became obvious by the time my second child came along though, that building a healthy self esteem was being sacrificed for 'it's all about me and what I want, and to hell with everyone else'. I think that's probably some of what you are referring to (?). Personally, I would love to know how and why this happened. The only thing I am sure of is, it's not going to change any time soon. We seem to be getting worse with each generation, rather than better. So what's a decent parent to do? Listen to the advice, consider it, and ultimately do what YOUR heart and conscience tell you is right. We've all made mistakes in parenting, it's impossible not to, but I believe if you follow your own core feelings about what is acceptable behavior for your kids, you'll do fine, and I would bet your kids will thank you for it when they're old enough to get it. Mine did. I only hope they can remember it all when the time comes!! No grandkids on the horizon yet - my kids aren't sure yet if they want them, and I'm really ok with that. I know a few people who pressured their own kids to have kids just b/c they wanted to be grandparents. How selfish. I've gotta run - to be continued
If a restaurant chooses to have a baby tax, then they only want an adult clientele and that's OK. For instance, when I go for brunch, I don't want a baby screaming next to me. I've chosen to go out and spend a ridiculous amount of money on breakfast because I want to treat myself, not because I want to listen to someone's child cry.
If I choose to eat out a restaurant that allows babies, then that's my fault.