City
TTC officially unveils its new Bombardier streetcars
The TTC officially peeled most of the wrapping off one of its new streetcars this morning, giving members of the press a chance to poke around and coo over a working version of the cars that are due in working service on Toronto's streets in roughly a year.
Maybe it's the LED lights, clean seats, and shiny, unscuffed bodywork, but sitting along side an example of each of its predecessors - a Peter Witt car, PCC, and CLRV, the vehicles currently making the rounds in Toronto - the Bombardier machines look remarkably futuristic.
Perhaps the most noticeable difference is the sheer size of these new streetcars. Standing next to one at street level really gives a sense of just how much more space there is inside. In terms of riding experience, multiple Presto readers will finally give transit users a chance to board via any door and pay without cash across system in earnest.
The next step is the first road test scheduled for early next year. TTC CEO Andy Byford says Torontonians will be able to see the new vehicles tentatively making their way along existing streetcar routes in January. You won't be able to board just yet; the testing phase will be used solely to identify any potential issues with reliability and handling.
"We think we've got the design right but there's bound to be some minor points we'll need to change," says Byford. "I'm confident that at the end of 2013 we'll be able to say to Bombardier 'go ahead, start manufacturing' and we'll start the roll out of vehicles in 2014. We'll completely replace the existing fleet within four years."
"It's once in a generation really ... it's a key piece in the jigsaw of our modernization at the TTC and it's demonstrable proof that we're serious about improving customer satisfaction."
Give us your thoughts on the new streetcars below. Are you excited to finally see Toronto's aging surface transit fleet get replaced? Will you miss the CLRVs and ALRVs?
QUICK FACTS:
- Carbody width: 2.54 metres
- Vehicle length: 30.2 m
- Number of seats: 70
- Standing room: 62 (average)/181 (maximum)
- Maximum speed: 70 km/h
- Horizontal curve radius: 11.5 m
- Number of motors: 6 (one per axle)
- Bonus features: AC, wheelchair access, bike-friendly area, CCTV, and emergency alarms
MORE PICTURES:
Photos: Derek Flack and Chris Bateman/blogTO
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Most places around the world use this. They'll have officers on board random trains/streetcars and do a check. In most cases, they use a hand-sized machine to scan your card to validate it's a valid fare for the journey.
And that aisle looks way too narrow. Is it bigger in person? Because if not the jerks with the backpacks are going to be jamming things up even more than they already do.
I have very little faith in the courtesy of TTC riders, obviously.
Seats facing each other don't have space under the seats so you can tuck your feet back and under if somebody sits in front. If you've been on one of the few seats on the GO train like this then you would know it doesn't make for a comfortable ride. The inconsiderate will now take 4 seats as opposed to the 2 now.
The aisles, based on the the 9th photo, look like they are 2 to 2.5 feet wide. A single person will block the aisle.
Fare evasion cost the TTC $22 million in 2010. It will only rise because of this new design. The driver is in no position to check fares as people enter any door. Honest people will start to question why they are subsidizing the others. Perhaps they haven't told us yet that they are going to implement a Sao Paulo bus type turnstyle and employee a second person on each streetcar.
If so, when these are 15 mintues late, will i get a refund?
TTC is quebec-like in its waste and backwardness, until AB showed up.
i wish him the best of luck modernizing this monolithic organization
1. Aisles look too narrow.
2. Face to face seats are an invitation for uncharitable riders (of which there are a surprising number) to take up two or more seats.
3. The lights on the top of the streetcar appear bright blue in one photo (this would be good) and red in another. If red, they will not be distinguishable at a distance at night from other vehicles. Not a deal breaker, but it's handy to be able to see if a street car is coming down the pike so you can determine to jump in a cab, walk to the next stop, etc.
4. The new doors open flush to the car, which means that unaware drivers will have that much less notice that passengers are debarking. I'm not aware of anyone dying in Toronto while debarking a street car, but I would not be surprised if it had happened nor will I be surprised when it inevitably does. Bombardier and the TTC should make better notice to car drivers a major priority.
POP works easily on GO Transit because the stops are far apart, enforcement is regular, and it can and is done during rush hour.
It's Brad Ross from the TTC explaining that as we all suspected, all 11 streetcar lines will go to a POP system. There will be a machine on board to insert cash and get a ticket/transfer as a proof of payment.
This is a TERRIBLE idea. Aside from the fact there as someone mentioned above, there is no way inspectors will be able to inspect a full car, think of the wasted time when tons of people are boarding, and there's a line up out the door from people trying to get the machine to work. What about when the machine is broken?
One step forward, two steps back.
1. seats that face each other (like the go-train) are awful.
2. White surfaces? uh...good luck with that.
Face to face seating would be alright if it wasn't all the way through the car, just one or two sets of four...
The seats have to face each other because of the low-floor design - there needs to be space for the engines/bogies/etc... It's not so bad though. York region's Viva has the same thing, and people are generally fine with letting people squeeze in (this is a big deal, cause I usually find 905 riders to be more selfish than TTC riders). Feet on the seats is going to be bad though. I hope the fare-checkers keep their eye out for this, as well as backpackers blocking the aisle.
I really hope the doors open faster than on the new generation of TTC buses and the new subway. Orion and Bombardier really screwed the pooch on those crappy doors, and loading/unloading times have been getting progressively worse.
Of course TTC never asked for OUR opinion! Nooo. I'll stick with my pickup truck for the time being.
Also.. where are my single seats?? Boo. And where do they expect to squeeze the standing-room only cattle in there? Looks like half the aisle is given to wider-girth seating.
MORE CARS ON KING ST. AND STOP ALL THE SHORT TURNING
At the moment, yes. But these new streetcars will be double-ended and eventually be converted to pantograph instead of poles, enabling them to reverse and eliminating the need for loops.
Good job, good effort.
The Good:
- 4(!) low-floor doors - instead of 2 - for fast (un)loading
- ramp enabled
- payment by debit or credit
- on board bicycle storage racks (inside)
- auto fold-up seats gives more standing room
- twice the capacity of existing (non-articulated) cars
- air conditioned
The Bad:
- doors don't open outward and don't have stop signs which help to stop traffic (why doesn't the "Do Not Pass" signage light up or something?)
- longer cars means longer wait times bewteen cars
- inefficient face-to-face and knee-to-knee seating
I'd recommend we call it Rob-Ford-friendly seating, but who are we kidding... he's never riding a streetcar.
It will probably be mostly the same. If you pay by cash it will be a counted box that issues a PoP, Presto's will be scanned. Honour system as always. But more room for ticket checkers on the new boats!
Get used to having to make awkward eye contact with people. And if you don't like it - STAND!
The ticket machine on the streetcar does concern me though. What if someone doesn't know how to use the machine? Or the machine goes down? Wouldn't that hold up the line to get on the streetcar and distract the operator from keeping it moving?
I think the TTC should keep that issue in mind - but Metrolinx needs to smarten up and make more self-serve Presto machines as well as upgrade the system to allow an instant credit to your Presto card when you fill the e-purse online.
http://torontoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ttc-new-streetcar-interior-folding.jpg
Please TTC, keep these things running in good condition, and CLEAN THEM. Your current streetcars are always dirty, and look like they haven't been cleaned in years. No wonder people get sick!
It says that the maximum capacity is 181 passengers, and the average is 61. This is a total lie. Filling up a street car with 181 people will not leave any room for maneuvering so that they can get off at the right stop. Buffer space (empty space) is needed for proper movement. Packing the poor like sardines who cannot exit at the right stops, and where elderly cannot properly move about, is not responsible behaviour by the government officials and they should be taken to court on that fact alone.
The pictures look awesome, there's no doubt about that. It's meant to look flashy and impressive. Why didn't the city dirty up one new streetcar to portray what it will look like after one week on the road? That would have been an honest and an accurate presentation. Instead they are trying to impress us Hollywood style and hope that the flaws will not be as visible as the shiny new paint job. That is criminal of the city and for this, too, they should be taken to court as it's misrepresentation.
The facing seats will not allow enough leg space. It will be uncomfortable to sit in them, even unsocial. We all know that the poor have to put up with these sorts of things if they wish to be part of the working world in this city. I myself am almost blind, and I have trouble when it comes to being in close proximity to things as I don't have 3D vision. There are many people in Toronto like me, and this new layout will make things more difficult than they already are.
I think it is a mistake to invest in streetcars instead of the subway system. When comparing to cities such as Paris, Tokyo, and NYC, our subway is non-existant and doesn't serve the city's needs well. Already by 4pm it's almost filled to capacity, however there is no end in sight to the immigration into the city and new borns being added every day. It is irresponsible and even criminal to let overcrowding be such a serious concern.
We need people on the city council who represent the population of this city. We don't need rich people who want to be our masters to serve their own financial independence needs. The disabled community is not well represented in the city at all. We need to elect people to power who take the TTC, who live in standard apartments. Not people who live in huge houses, have luxury vehicles, and are out of touch with the everyday person.
The TTC is a shame of this city. You can dress it up as "the rocket" all you want, but that's kinda like ScotiaBank advertising "You are Richer Than You Think", all the while charging really high fees on every single thing! It's insulting!
I am thankful I live by the St. Lawrence market and never have to take the streetcars. What's worse is the TTC is building stops with glass walls and enough space under the roof for maybe 4-5 people in total. Most street car stops in the downtown core have huge lines of 20+ people waiting. Many stops don't even have the shitty shelters with a two seat bench!
The city takes care of it's hockey players, baseball players, basketball players, football players, movie stars, and other celebrities. But the most vulnerable, they're left in poverty. The new streetcars are simply a symptom of a long outstanding problem that this city has suffered with for decades it seems. It's like a disease that we still haven't killed.
It's too bad I'm disabled, otherwise I'd work a 6 figure job and pass a driver's test and drive an SUV, too! But instead I'm forced to live off of ODSP's $1,000 a month income, and praying I'll have enough money to buy a few tokens a month.
Thanks city!
It's not perfect, but POP works. Can't wait to see it here.
Slightly better on the environment annnnnnd?
Can you "tap on" when you see the enforcement officers boarding?
Also, the face-to-face seating WILL NOT FIT two average-sized peoples knees and feet. One check in an ergonomics textbook would show them that only kids and small women will fit in those seats.
There was a mockup on display at Hillcrest about a year ago. The face-to-face seating definitely has enough room for average-sized people to sit facing each other.
Again, it's not perfect, but it is better and quicker than what we currently have.
As for the facing seats 'problem'-there isn't one, it's all in your head and the heads of the people that object to it because just like them, you weren't paying attention to the little detail about how the chairs have to be facing you because of the placement of the wheel that they're under. The not being able to get out of the streetcar bit? As it is, you can barely do that in subways or buses, too-yet you love those to death! What's the difference here? It looks like you need Wheel-Trans, from what you say about yourself.
As for your last bit about being on ODSP-guess what, I'm on it too, and also disabled, and usually in the same boat as you with regards to tokens. But, I'm not being such a hater of the TTC and a big drama queen about the new streetcars like you-I take in stride, walk up to the streetcar when I have to, get on, and bash on regardless. To end this, and to paraphrase Kent Brockman, 'I for one welcome our new TTC streetcars, with all of the benefits and problems that they'll bring.'
Why should it do so? Steve Munro will tell you:
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=5391
I understand that the wheels have to go somewhere. However, the current solution isn't the appropriate one. It's a rushed solution. The pictures clearly show that there won't be enough space for four people to sit comfortably, and get up and get down without bumping into each other. I personally don't like facing backwards when I'm in a moving vehicle, and many people don't like that sensation. It's a valid point. You stating we need to change is not the correct approach. Some people can become physically ill from such an effect, it's a psychological thing, it cannot be simply undone with words! Please have a bit more understanding of other's needs before you open your mouth again and tell me to shut up.
Furthermore there is the concern with the doors, they won't present a visual barrier when they are open, so drivers won't have that bit of extra nudge to stop or slow down. That's a big issue as usually one exits out of the back doors so as not to be in conflict with those entering the street car.
My issue with space for maneuvering on the street car is valid. The subway cars have more space in the "hallway" between the seats. There's plenty of space to stand and to move. In the new pictures posted, it doesn't seem like that would be possible. I remind you again of what I said about the TTC using bad math. They state something like 181 maximum passengers per streetcar. There is no way to fit that many people, in such a narrow space, and still have ample space for maneuvering. Plus there'll be parents with strollers, and a perspon in a wheelchair. All that requires that those standing in between seats move somewhere else, to be displaced, like water in a tub, it has to go somewhere!
Since you brought up buses, I'll bite. Buses are better than streetcars. They can change routes with ease, when one is stuck or broken down the whole route isn't blocked. So if I really think about it, buses make way more sense. I would go as far as to say that the city should scrap the old archaic streetcars all together. In some European countries they have buses that work like streetcars, they are connected to the electric grid above the road, so they maintain the maneuverability of a typical vehicle and retain the cleanliness of a pollution-free streetcar. Except for using electricty, whcih pollutes in it's own right. Perhaps that is a better solution than using streetcars? I am for that. It makes way more sense, than forcing people into a cramped steel enclosure.
You say that travel underground is not good because it's not above ground where the sun is, or something to that effect. However, subways move much more quickly than buses or streetcars, and usually quicker than cars in the city, as they don't have to stop for stop lights or slow traffic, or for turning. This makes them highly efficient people movers. With the latest advances in electricy and technology new subway lines could be super energy efficient!
As for your rudeness of trying to deport me from this city because I think that the subway systems of New York, Paris, and Tokyo are better, I'll respond to that as well. I don't like Tokyo. It is overcrowded, dangerously so. I believe the government didn't take measures in time to prevent that from happening, and that's very irresponsible of them. So I wouldn't want to live there. I don't want to live in Paris, there's way too many curvy narrow roads, sidewalks are tiny and most people walk on the streets, there's hardly any space for trees and grass in the city, too many old buildings, and I don't speak French! So no Paris for me either. And New York city is much too violent for my tastes.
I absolutely love Toronto. That's something you didn't pick up on in your rude reply to me. But what I don't like, is the people who are in charge of running this city. I haven't liked them since I got into this country, in 1990! So long ago. I didn't like the people who ran the city I escaped from either. Those people were far worse than the ones running Toronto!!!
So it's not that I have a problem in my head - that's pretty rude of you to say I think! It's that we have lived very different lives and have different opinions.
I am not for streetcars. I see them as outdated modes of transportation that need to be phased out. I just looked up on Google the proper term for those buses in Europe that use the streetcar-like electrical system. Trolley buses. I think TTC would be wise to switch over to them! It would be wise environment-wise, and transportation-wise.
And one more thing... Why did they choose to make the new streetcars look so similar to the old streetcars? Why didn't they paint them bright blue? And give them edging and detailing so it looks cool, so it's a tourist attraction and not just a red steel sardine cage?
Yeah.... I want a better city than this. Don't you?
I love the 501, because you see a cross-section of the city by time of day, by stop. It's a unique and rarely boring experience.
No need to be as rude as you are. I am entitled to my opinion which is obviously very different than yours. I wish you all the best as you sit in traffic. I will be on my electric bike and have total access to anywhere I want to go without the bother.
With the entire streetcar network becoming POP, you can bet that enforcement will be a lot more common, just like GO. For those who don't know how it works, the POP officers board the streetcar at random stops; often there are two or three of them and they enter through all the doors so nobody can leave without showing their proof of payment. If you see them when you're arriving at the stop, it's already too late because you have to pass through them to leave.
This photo essay didn't particularly do a great job of showing the spaciousness of the new streetcars. The more crowded sections are at either end of the car but most people will choose to board through the middle where there are single seats and a lot of standing room. This Torontoist photo shows that more clearly: http://torontoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ttc-new-streetcar-interior-folding.jpg
As for the facing seats, I'm not a fan but there is a logical reason for this, and it's not that the TTC has some conspiracy to make Torontonians more friendly. The low floor means that the wheels and and electric motors of the streetcar jut into the aisle. You can either leave the hump there being useless or you could put seats on top. That's what they've done.
Perhaps the TTC **should** have a conspiracy to make Torontonians friendlier because I've never seen such a bunch of whiny negative complainers as I do on the comments sections of Toronto's news sites. We're getting a brand new entire fleet of streetcars that will make everybody's life easier -- including drivers because larger streetcars means less of them on the road and 4 doors instead of 2 or 3, all door boarding means and no lineups to pay mean very quick loading times. Celebrate Toronto for once!
If I make 5 points and one of them is wrong, you say that all my points are therefore wrong! That's an easy way of dismissing things you don't want to think about, and are probably too scared to accept. One wrong idea doesn't invalidate everything else I've said. That's pretty stupid to think that way.
And as far as me being wrong on that one point goes, you're proof is one or two people. So you're neighbour has a car and takes the streetcar, that doesn't mean the vast majority who take the streetcar can't afford a car, can't afford parking in the city, and can't afford the gas for an SUV. Your logic is again extremely flawed. I bet you aren't in the scientific field, you'd fail miserably at scientific thinking.
Please, think more logically from now on. Most people who take the streetcars, cannot afford to drive. Why would ANYONE go through the rush hour madness of packing themselves into sardine cans if they could have the luxury of their own vehicle? It makes no sense.
Has it occurred to you that many, many people choose transit instead of driving mainly because they don't want to sit there idling and burning up fuel and don't want to spend money on extortionate parking fees while they're at work? Because they don't want the stress of trying to be on time when traffic is heavy? Being able to afford to do something is not necessarily a reason in itself to do that thing.
"In some European countries they have buses that work like streetcars, they are connected to the electric grid above the road, so they maintain the maneuverability of a typical vehicle and retain the cleanliness of a pollution-free streetcar." Like streetcars, they pollute less and are cheaper to maintain but they still can't carry as many people as the streetcars can, so the plan falls on its face. Trolleys themselves are not a bad idea at all, in fact the city once had a network of such routes until it was scrapped due to excessive decay of the infrastructure and vehicles. As a replacement for the current diesel buses on certain routes, they are an excellent idea and should be considered.
"However, subways move much more quickly than buses or streetcars, and usually quicker than cars in the city, as they don't have to stop for stop lights or slow traffic, or for turning. This makes them highly efficient people movers. With the latest advances in electricy and technology new subway lines could be super energy efficient!" We all agree that subways are awesome, but they only work where there are very large numbers of people that need to be served. This is why the Sheppard subway has never been cost-effective. Even downtown they would not necessarily work even with the increased ridership, not only because it still is not sufficient to require constructing a subway, but because the downtown core is more suited to high-capacity local routes with closer stop spacing, closer than a subway can reasonably provide. In other words, streetcars.
"I am not for streetcars. I see them as outdated modes of transportation that need to be phased out. I just looked up on Google the proper term for those buses in Europe that use the streetcar-like electrical system. Trolley buses. I think TTC would be wise to switch over to them! It would be wise environment-wise, and transportation-wise." As I previously stated, trolleys are a perfectly acceptable vehicle type to be used on certain routes of the TTC, but they cannot replace the streetcar routes because there are certain qualities of streetcars, such as greater capacity, that trolley buses simply do not possess. And they are not and cannot be obsolete because they provide a capacity middle-ground between buses and subways. The only way they can be considered obsolete is if the need for this intermediate capacity vanishes (which will never happen) or unless an alternative solution is found (which has been tried before and most recently gave us the much-hated Scarborough RT, one of the biggest failures in Toronto transit history). The streetcars are here to stay.
Nice... But I don't think they're going to help traffic congestion any. They have more capacity, but they're also far bigger.
I'm going to be momentarily happy about riding in a futuristic train/streetcar.. Momentarily.
Couldn't have said it better, GRICER1326.
Payment is one of the biggest issues, but stops need to be eliminated on many downtown routes (the new streetcars practically stretch from Yonge to Victoria, why is there a stop there?), many more no-turn restrictions need to be put in place (cars with one person turning left should not hold up giant streetcars with hundreds of riders), maps need to show streetcar routes (they are rail, not buses, but appear only as buses on the maps!), and so on.
This is a once in a generation chance to fix public perception AND THE TTC IS GOING TO SCREW IT UP.
One photo of a bunch of new streetcars stuck one behind the other in gridlock will doom the future of this amazing and underutilized system in this city. Your kids will have to go to the States to ride streetcars and you will say "Toronto used to have these, but then ...."
??
You can't live in a bubble. Toronto Sun readers are real. Ford voters are real. Scarborough is real. It's unbelievable that these people are now vehemently anti-streetcar, arguing for their removal. They hate something that is not only cost-effective and pro-city but also a Toronto icon. WTF? How did that happen? Too many sloppy mistakes have been made in how streetcars are operated. It can be fixed, but it needs to be addressed now before the opportunity is lost.
For people who get motion sick you literally can't sit in a backwards facing seat, and for everyone taller than 4 feet it's an incredibly uncomfortable ride. Not to mention how difficult it is to get out of one of the window seats if there are two people sitting in the aisle seats. If there were space issues then they should have done the one raised hump seat that they do on every other bus we currently have. Bombardier should have sent at least one person to look at the Viva implementation and seen how no one sits on the backwards facing seats until they absolutely have to, and how difficult it is to get in or out of them when it's busy, before going with the same crappy design again.
http://torontoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ttc-new-streetcar-interior-folding.jpg
What web host are you using? Can I am getting your affiliate hyperlink to your host?
I wish my web site loaded up as fast as yours lol
-Too many double seated arrangements on both sides. This makes the aisles too small and narrow and limits standing room. Have more seats lined up against the way like in the subways and busses. It'll also make it easier for accessibility accommodations.
-Face-to-face seating -- not a fan in the city of people who love being anonymous. Also, like one other person said, it's an invitation for inconsiderate riders to hog more than one seat for their bag, stuff, etc.
-Need more lights to signify when doors are open. Since these are sliding doors, it's even easier for drivers to miss passengers that are getting off the streetcar and can cause accidents. The folding/opening doors of the old streetcars (although cumbersome) already have enough drivers passing on by when they're open.