City
Should Toronto outlaw panhandling?
In article entitled "How Rob Ford could improve T.O." the Toronto Sun suggests that Mayor Rob Ford consider a ban on panhandling, doing away with the mandatory plastic bag fee, and implementing a cyclist licensing program. We've already polled readers about the latter two suggestions at one point or another, but what about the first? Is this an idea that makes any sense?
There's little doubt that aggressive panhandlers can pose a nuisance to pedestrians going about their business, but one wonders whether or not the desire to outlaw such an enterprise just misdiagnoses the symptom for the disease. The presence of panhandlers on city streets marks a deeper problem than social awkwardness, and merely banning the activity does little to address the core problem of poverty.
Below is some feedback from our Twitter followers on the Sun's suggestion and an opportunity to vote in a poll on the subject. Given the sentiment of the tweets, the poll is hardly placed in a neutral context, but I wanted a way to keep the question open beyond the initial Twitter call.
@blogTO The safe streets act back in the early 2000s tried to address the same problem. Its only a move to criminalize the poor. Sad times.
Javin
hitok1ri
@blogTO re: outlaw panhandling suggestion->Outlawing panhandling not the answer. We need more programs to get help them homes & jobs
Darla Mittler
DarlaMittler
@blogTO As long as they include those charity solicitors who bug you for credit card donations as you're walking down the street.
Tim Meehan
yorandomtweeter
Not before they outlaw SunTV. "@blogTO: Recently the Sun suggested that Toronto outlaw panhandling. Thoughts/comments on this idea?"
Andrew Douglas
allojeandesign
@blogTO Completely support this. Toronto would be a much cleaner city. See Sydney. Didn't see 1 panhandler or homeless person.
Nick San Juan
thenixonone
@blogTO outlawing panhandling will not solve anything. Toronto still needs to help these people get off the streets instead of fining them
Steven Iserhoff
SteveAndI
@blogTO Outlawing panhandling is just another cost to keep a simple "nuisance" away & will = more crime. Better used in social programs.
Trish Starling
t__star
@blogTO Why doesn't the Toronto Sun support jailing all homeless and hungry people? They scare me when I go to Starbucks. #cdnpoli #toronto
Simon King
simonkinglaw
@blogTO I guess another more step towards police state is ONE way to handle the poverty problem.
Life Post-Shaggy
postshaggy
@blogTO If outlawed, then the city needs to come up with a realistic and solid means of ending poverty.
Claire
claireshegoes
@blogTO As far as I can tell...pan handlers are the only people that use the Sun..for bedding & ground-cover since it's unreadable.
Erik R. Adler
EstonianaJones
@blogTO I've been suggesting a panhandling district on Toronto Island for years.
tapesonthefloor
tapesonthefloor
Hope they're ready to fund homeless shelters RT @blogTO: Recently the Sun suggested that Toronto outlaw panhandling. Thoughts/comments?
Jill Krajewski
JillKrajewski
POLL
Photo by Spirited_Away in the blogTO Flickr pool
Discussion
72 Comments
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They can outlaw it, but it won't work.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2006/agendas/committees/pof/pof060918/it040.pdf
Whatever NYC is doing must be working because on a recent trip there we only saw one panhandler in the 4 days we were there - and we walked and walked one end of Manhattan to the other. Compare that just to Church St. from Isabella to Carlton where on a given day you're bound to be approached by at least 2 or 3.
"As far as I can tell...pan handlers are the only people that use the Sun..for bedding & ground-cover since it's unreadable."
All those three ideas are the worst.
We all know if you are a panhandler or a solicitor, and if we want to hear your pitch we will stop.
Some of these folks address you and I don't feel a need to have to respond back every time. And then when they get upset or say something under their breath after you walk past.
If they want help from society force them to go to shelters and soup kitchens and offer programs to get them off the street.
Also, ban the people wanting money for charity. They are WORSE than the homeless with their "heeey guuuuys, hows it goooing?". Asshats.
It's not a simply solution. No one in the world can sustain a long term solution to solving poverty so for those who suggest we need to do it is naive.
Why would anyone want to "work" when the make more money panhandling than cutting grass/gardening, warehousing work, etc? The real solution is for everyone not to give them any money and they simply move on or finally, give in to "help". I personally don't think banning it is "picking on the poor". I've seen way too many drunk/high panhandlers for my liking.
of busy people trying to make a living and pay taxes..
WTF?
Can someone allow givers to give an ass-kick to those who reject their money this way?
And those we do have tend to be non-aggressive.
Besides, an outright ban on panhandling is impossible, since, as someone pointed out above, a ban would contradict the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
While also an infringement of out civil rights, how do we propose to outlaw panhandling? Fines? They wouldn't be panhandling if they hand money. Jail? So we can waste taxpayers money.
If this was such an issue, shouldn't there be a panel of some sort?
P.S: They better watch it too, if that infamous hacker group gets wind of this - who knows what they might do.
What are you going to do, fine them? Arrest them and throw them in prison? Put them in a truck and ship 'em somewhere else? Do we really want to be wasting tax money and police time rounding up pandhandlers?
I don't give money to panhandlers, because I don't think doing so is really helping them. And it does bother me when they get aggressive or in my face about it (which is almost never). But let's face it, the simplest, cheapest and most practical solution is to simply ignore them if they offend you so much.
Hows this for an idea: make our wonderful politicians who set welfare (and more importantly, long term disability) rates live on them for a month or two. Just set them up like they are schizophrenic, so they are to take a handfull of pills that totally mess them up each day, and smoke at least a pack a day, and pay room and board somewhere in Toronto.
Oh, wait. You can't afford all of that on GAINS-D or whatever they're calling it this week. You run out of money about mid month...
Trying to get blood from a stone, is the old saying.
Are there no prisons?
Bah! Humbug!
christ almighty i pay a shitload of taxes, some of which goes to welfare programs. let them eat from tax-funded soup kitchens. my taxes already pay for too many social parasites than to suffer them waving their dirty tim's cups at me when i'm walking home from a hard day's work.
i do not include buskers amongst the parasites. even the most tuneless busker is at least making an effort to justify donations. i always hand them some change (even bills sometimes).
and yes pls remove those obnoxious charity workers. preferably by force.
WTF!!!!
'hey, man.'
'what's up?'
'here's a ticket for panhandling. saw you doing it. now beat it.'
'no problem mr. officer. where should I send the cheque to?
'say what?'
'and who should I make it out to?'
'don't be a smart ass.'
'maybe you guys prefer an email transfer? what's your email?'
Who else is an inconvenience, let's ban them. That will be sure to help the city's $9700 million yearly budget and get the government off our backs.
could you imagine getting $1000 a week for life tax free? OLG says the odds are pretty slim.
I'm starting to wonder if it's a total fabrication by the media and right-wing politicians who need something to sensationalize the issue.
@mikeb: One successful panhandler does not a movement of similar people make.
@belvedere: W.K. Lis was just being sarcastic when he said that. He did not mean it for real like you just did.
@TJ, mr7eh, Troy, Rmund, unknown #1, unknown #2, Mike, Royal York, Joe Scratch, Niklas; You all are such princes, do you know that? If you all can't stand the poor and homeless, then maybe you shouldn't be voting for the politicians that cause homelessness and poverty with their policies, OK? It's just that fracking simple, it's up to you, and it starts with you.
yup u r absolutely right. now go and tell that to the panhandlers. clearly they haven't learned that individual resolve is what takes a person to new heights, not govt intervention. politicians cause homelessness?? u must be kidding. try selling that to a hard working immigrant who's clawed his/her way up from nothing.
wk lis was not kidding!
"GIVE US OUR SPECIAL DIET ALLOWANCE BACK! Outlawing panhandling is just another way for the Ford nation and other cronies to punish the poor."
Oh Christ, cry me a river! Do you have any idea how many so-called 'panhandlers' are from Montreal?
We need to go back to the old days: have the cops drive these bums to city limits, and leave them there.
Bon voyage!
1 - This directly violates the charter, therefor you're anti-democratic. Police CANNOT forcibly relocate people to comply with a municipal bylaw, it's not in their jurisdiction. And frankly police want NOTHING to do this type of "law enforcement" they'd rather be staking out drug gangs.
2 - Dropping off a bunch of people with a high rate of mental health issues in an area with no access to support services or medication is a surefire means to create a whole host of problems.
3 - Droppping off a bunch of people with a high rate of drug addiction in an unfamiliar area, with no means to support their habit, and no dealers to get drugs off means you're going to have a bunch of addicts detoxing HARD with no where to go. Have you ever been around someone detoxing on crack? Heroin? They'll do anything for a hit, even dumb and violent crimes where they are sure to be caught.
4 - People LIVE on the 416 border, but clearly you could care less about them, or the crap they'll have to put up with hundreds of folks who can't get medication or are detoxing on their doorstep. If it was your house being broken into or your kids being stuck up for their smartphones to be pawned off for crack by a badly detoxing addict, I'm sure you'd be singing a different tune.
5 - Your views are so absurd it's hard not to view you as a troll.
If somehow they did outlaw panhandlers or whatever, what is that really going to do? You jail them for a few days they go back into the streets and continue to panhandle, why? because they have no money, no jobs.
Two, is the city really that stupid to fine panhandlers when they have no money to begin with? "Here is a 30$ fine now i hope you can beg that by the end of tonight." Herp Derp.
I think creating more programs that will allow them to develop the skill to get a job will work out for the best. Plus if the city was smart enough... oh wait we have Rob Ford, LOL. Well, if he was smart enough he would know that More Jobs = Better Economy, but he chooses to cut all of our essential needs. Good Job Rob Ford us Torontians are proud of you!
So, I'm supposed to elevate the immigrant over a poor, hungry and homeless person, simply because they don't have what you and the rest of society call 'individual resolve' to get a job that pays shit in terms of affording a roof and four walls over your head and around your body? (BTW, numb nuts/numbskull, I did not say that 'politicians cause homelessness' I said that the <i>POLICIES</I> they all enact are what causes homelessness and hunger-is you reading comprehension any good? Or are you just that stupid on purpose?)
I''ve never known W.K. Lis to say the bullshit that you're saying (although maybe I was wrong, and he is agreeing with you? I hope not.)
I would love to see you and all of the people that have made these comments after a series of calamities lands you in hospital with a mental, emotional, or physical illness that lasts a long time and takes up half of your life, while leaving you with no skills and (possibly) no housing like what happened to <a href="http://hpn.asu.edu/archives/Jan99/0126.html";>this lady</a> back in 1985. How would you most of you coldhearted morons survive, and what would you do? Would you be relying on that 'individual resolve' to survive the streets? Or would you be like the people you all are demonizing? Please, please, enlighten me.
Compare that with Church St. on any given day where you have to run the gauntlet of 2-3 between Isabella and Alexander on a good day. There's always the 'limping guy' in the middle of the street at Bloor/Castlefrank, and very often I see one or more at the Jarvis off-ramp.
politicians develop and implement policies. did u know that? how stupid can u be?
i know it must hurt ur poor little head to try and understand that individual effort, the setting of goals and application of willpower trump any amount of political posturing to improve society. ppl who think like u r just like the assembly of first nations that has relegated its constituents (save for a few, like the nisga'a, who took charge of their own destiny) to eternal victimhood.
sure, severely disabled and mentally ill people (and i don't mean panhandlers with bad shitty lazy i'm a victim everyone else owes me attitudes) need a social safety net. it's there. i pay for it. maybe u do too, though the way u talk u probably expect the govt to have a fantomex support policy to make life gravy for u and u just sit back with a ciggie and can of old milwaukee and suck like a greedy crybaby at the generous tit of canadian socialistic society.
were u beaten, molested, ridiculed, etc as a kid and u r still blaming ur parents, social workers, govt? get over it. the immigrant example is powerful. many of these ppl have been shot at, jailed, starved, raped and yet they still had a vision for themselves that didn't look backwards. they came to canada and started from scratch, even needing to learn english or french as adults. the able panhandlers should take a lesson. but they won't. tim's cups r plentiful and it's too much effort and personal responsibility to try and succeed. their attitudes imprison them.
take ur liberal sanctimony and shove it.
I am not regularly in Toronto but a number of years ago, I went to Maple Leaf Gardens and was surprised by the panhandlers. No, it didn't make what you would call a nice impression and I am sure that it is a nuisance - not only for passers-by but for local businesses and their employees. However, banning panhandling is very problematic - not only in the sense of do-ability (Can you really enforce it? Do fines/jail time really work?, etc...) but also in an ethical sense. (We are talking about human beings, members of our society). We have to look at other options.
That was the moment I lost sympathy for 99% of Toronto's panhandlers.
Unless they're playing an instrument or doing something to better your day, I don't want them around.
@dmz: Aww, poor baby. Did the big bad old lady scare your widdle self so much that you wet your pants while running away and crying for your mommy? Stick a sock in it, you neocon stooge, and concentrate on challenging the people and institutions that have really caused the situations that you hate so much.