City
Tim Hortons vs. Toronto Public Libraries mashup
Doug Ford's recent remarks regarding Toronto Public Libraries have already become notorious. Speaking on Newstalk 1010 about a week ago, the Ward 2 Councillor claimed that "We have more libraries per person than any other city in the world. I've got more libraries in my area than I have Tim Hortons." A few days later, Our Public Library, a website created to campaign against the privatization of TPL branches, thankfully set the record straight.
"When the Urban Affairs branch closes, Toronto will have 3.9 libraries per 100,000 people, which is what Vancouver has. Halifax has 4.3 libraries per 100,000 people, more than Toronto. In the U.S., the entire state of Vermont, which has only one-quarter of the population of Toronto, has 30 libraries per 100,000 people, which is 7.5 times the library density of Toronto," read a post by Maureen O'Reilly dated yesterday.
"In Etobicoke (Mr. Ford's area), there are 13 library branches there, and 39 Tim Horton's shops, not to mention all the other donut shops," she continues. "In fact, on a per capita basis, the people in Etobicoke have fewer libraries than Toronto as a whole." As was the case when Rob Ford spoke on the John Oakley show last week regarding the City's labour costs, it would seem his older brother has a propensity to exaggerate when it suits him.
But how much of an exaggeration was it? Well, as it turns out, a pretty big one. In Ford's Etobicoke North ward, there are at least double the number of Tim Hortons than there are TPL branches (Rexdale, Humberwood and Northern Elms). And what about the city as a whole? Well, according to a somewhat recent list of Tim Hortons franchises with 416 area codes, the ratio of this particular donut shop to libraries comes in at almost three to one (just over 100 libraries compared to roughly 270 retail outlets, including those located at gas stations and other stores).
So, despite my limited skills, I made a map for Doug. Now he can directly compare the number of Tim Hortons franchises to public libraries in the whole city. Because, you know, the numbers O'Reilly cites above can be too big and abstract to get a handle on. And what better way to communicate this information than with a picture?
Use the map above to compare the number of Tim Hortons locations in Toronto to that of the TPL. A note about the data: the list of Tim Hortons locations is derived from GPS data that's at least a year old, so there might be minor inaccuracies. The map is used to highlight the overall trend more than as a guide to donut shops.
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Ignorant hicks.
I can't see any libraries missing.
Libraries are also more that just book depositories, they have DVD, CDs, and you can use the computer all things that require a physical space. They are also a space for social gatherings, Timmies won't let you bring ten kids in for a book reading, but the library will.
I LOVE libraries (and I think Ford is a buffoon), but let me tell you, when we went out on the picket lines because we made LESS than the union janitors, who really cared that we were out on strike? It's an inconvenience. It's not a necessary service, it's a luxury service. I ask you, would you rather have a road to drive on or a library if you had to make a choice? I'd take the road, every time. I've got books.
Also, don't forget that you aren't purchasing a lot of it, you're licensing it for a specific amount of users at a time. (Which is the answer when people complain that an infinite number of people can't borrow a digital book at once since there is no physical object.) Factor in the fact that this year publishers tried to get Overdrive to limit new purchases to a set number of check outs (which was ridiculously low) so that libraries would have to replace their digital copies every year. Paper is much cheaper in that case.
Don't get me wrong, online books are great, but they aren't accessible to everyone. There are also multiple studies available that prove that the cost of libraries is less than the cost of NOT having libraries.
Libraries are essential services for poor kids who would otherwise have nothing to do except cause trouble. I should know, as I was one of them.
Your comments reflect the perspective of a spoiled wealthy person who can afford his own books, e-reader, etc.
Most Torontonians aren't nearly so well-off.
Those Ford Brothers sure have a lot of chootspah....
Anonamous Republican Prezidental Candidate
I have lived in shared accommodations with only rice in the cupboard to eat and grew up in a family of six kids with plenty of hand-me-downs, so don't give me the spoiled wealthy person line. You are on a computer to write this, therefore YOU would be able to read online books, too!
What is wrong with looking for efficiencies to cut costs. Don't make this all about class.
And Cathy, no, I worked in libraries years ago before they thought of online books. I'd be interested in reading the studies.
Well, I'm in a TPL branch right now, and it's packed because it's doubling as a place to stay cool in this insane heat wave.
Although I agree that you can certainly do a lot digitally, libraries are an invaluable public resource...and not just for books. Ask new Canadians, or people who can't afford a computer and an internet connection (there are still lots of those in Toronto).
I am just enjoying the fact that you took the time to actually map out the difference between the two. Cautionary tale that politicians should well heed.
At some point, the Western world forgot that when we wanted our politicians to listen to us, we took action. I'm not talking rioting, but you can't get the Fords to listen without seriously getting in their faces.
Ohhh God I feel a migraine coming on.
Give a kid a donut, he gets fat.
Give a kid a book, he gets an education.
You could probably stand to spend more time in a library.
Stating The Obvious Please.
In particular, to me the obvious is that you all must know Rob Ford is acting in conjunction with many other groups of people. Similar to the Cheney-paradigm.
You might hate Rob Ford, but these ideas of distraction and contempt of public services comes from support of other places.
Do Torontonians care to know what these other places, people, points of view are?
References:
http://www.toronto.ca/elections/results/pdf/2010-officialdeclaration.pdf
http://www.toronto.ca/elections/results/pdf/2010-voter-turnout-statistics.pdf
The "overwhelming majority" claim is as legitimate as the record-breaking vote count claim (lastman 2000), the labour cost claims, the gravy train claims, Rob's university diploma, his election expenses, his claims about constituent phone calls on Jarvis, and most recently this little Library Vs Timmies debate.
I usually take out cookbooks and realized quite quickly, I never have to buy a book from amazon again. I was so surprised by the amount of books the city library carries. I decided to look up books on amazon that nobody wanted nor are they reviewed. The toronto library happens to have 10-30 copies of many many really crappy books, and surprise, none checked out. I continued and it is nothing short disgusting how much money has been wasted on books that nobody wants.
Let's not privatize, but I think maybe how much we buy should be determined by how much demand there is. There is just far too much waste.
its the only waty directly you can do something
4163979255
397-ford
we can't just stock books based on popularity, or there'd be nothing but Harry Potter, John Grisham, and the Da Vinci Code.
Doug ford is simply trying to explain things in a language his followers understand. Gravy and donuts, these are things that ford nation 'gets'.
Although lindy is guilty of exaggerating (isn't everyone? be honest!), your posted fiction is worse.
Ford won 47% of the 53.2% of the eligible voters. Where your drug-addled brain got 23% is known only to your dealer and you. That makes delta percent of 25%, not a majority, to be sure, but Ford had 2 decent candidates (Smitherman and Joe Pantalone). By contrast, Miller may have gotten 57% of the vote in 2006, but that was only against Jane whats-her-name and only 39% of the voters BOTHERED to show up, making his actual total vote only 22%. So, Ford won with a 3 point greater vote, against 2 credible candidates; whereas, Miller couldn't even inspire 40% of the people to show up!
(PS. Miller won in 2003 with only 16% of the total eligible voters!!! 43% of 38%)
If nothing else, Ford got people off their a$$es to vote! That has always been an issue in Canada: the usual suspects hijack the agenda, the voters tune out enmasse, then the chattering class struts around blabbering about 'their mandate.' Hilarious!
Back on topic: how many in this room have bothered to go to a library in the last decade? Be honest. Libraries are cool and are essential, but just like Fort York, nobody uses them.
Sorry, that's not true: I met a young man yesterday who spends his days at the Yonge reference library because his homeless shelter kicks him out at 8:30 and doesn't let him back in until 9:30 pm.
It's the new Toronto and you better like it.
Sorry, that's not true: I met a young man yesterday who spends his days at the Yonge reference library because his homeless shelter kicks him out at 8:30 and doesn't let him back in until 9:30 pm."
Not true. I go to the library every weekend and it's always filled with people. I also pass by the Reference Library once in a while and it too, is filled with people. Perhaps you're confusing libraries with Tim Hortons?
Rob Ford is the only big-city mayor in North America who lacks a college degree. He needs to go back to school before he touches the library system.
Libraries also generally don't exist in the congestion-causing drive-through format.
paper books and it will be many years before all books are available as digital copies.
People are interested in many other subjects besides the ones currently fashionable and
those books will probably not be available electronically. Browsing through several
books to find the one you really need, or want, to read is difficult with electronic books.
Many, if not most, library users have trouble navigating a library without assistance and
the librarians are there to help people find what they want and need if they are lost or
confused. Libraries have children's programs that encourage reading and the love of
reading. Librarians know where to find the lists and indexes that might be helpful.
Librarians review books to look for the best ones no matter how obscure. Libraries, in
fact, probably provide the biggest group of customers for new or obscure authors, or
books of limited general interest. Toronto managed to fund a good library system during
the Depression; it is inconceivable to me that it can't do it now.
The Mayors Ford are bad for this city, period.
It is when not a single copy is taken out! Seriously, 0 of 30 checked out. R U fing kidding me? I don't think you understand. I looked up books that barely anybody would know about let alone want. R U suggesting the city owning 10-30 copies of every book ever made while nobody wants to read them isn't wasteful.
Maybe having one or two of these books I might understand but 30! If a book is not popular, you might have to wait a little longer for it, big deal!
Actually, not all schools have librarians, the schools don't have the huge collection the public library does, and recently one board (Durham, I think) was talking about doing away with school libraries altogether. School libraries are also often seen as "gravy" and especially since the Harris years, have tiny budgets. They don't have all the books kids want to read because they don't have the money to have a big enough collection to circulate the most popular kids-lit. Not only that, they're not open the summer when the kids have tons of free time. Public libraries run summer reading programs and activities for kids, and are the only way many of the kids at the inner-city school where I taught, get their hands on the books they really want, that their parents and school can't afford to buy for them.
If you want to talk about waste, let's talk about 30+ TPS officers on duty at TFC games, and cops paid to be traffic cones at construction sites. Just yesterday on Yonge in the Summerhill area I saw a minor car accident with a cop lounging against a construction fence not 15 feet away, staring off into space.
But feel free to post and repost and repost again!
I care about libraries because they offer a wide variety of invaluable resources and services over and above just books alone ... you may not care about them much, but that's your loss ultimately.
apparently city council has received more letters emails and phonecalls about the possibility of library cuts than any other cuts combined.
some people care. you don't, and thats fine. but you're just an internet asshole.
Is that a serious question? Because if we are stating the obvious - that these cuts to community programs & services are BAD for this city (including the suburbs), our community, our economy, and for our citizens (because there are POOR, struggling people out there who relay upon these services to have a decent standard of living), than please why don't you enlighten us about these "other peoples" points of view?
I'd like to hear the logic behind this other point of view, because frankly I see everything that Rob Ford is doing as an attack of MY way of life & not just a "different point of view".
I am a regular library user. I was in my local branch yesterday. I usually have at least six items checked out and another six on hold, and proximity to a library is a factor in my deciding where to live.
One thing that I think our Mayor and others really need to realize about libraries is that they support the conservative value of self reliance. People in libraries are there to self educate and improve their lot in life whether through job hunting or language and literacy tutoring among other such things.
They are not simply expecting someone else to fix their problems. They are using the resources available to them to better their lives.
There are also plenty of high school students trying to get their diplomas while having no access to the internet at home. Without libraries they would probably drop out of high school and that makes them far less employable and far more likely to wind up on welfare.
I am certain there are inefficiencies in the TPL system. The system still shows the marks from amalgamation and is a bit of a bureaucratic nightmare so I am certain there are places where a few judicious cuts can be made.
The thing is though, I want those cuts made by someone who values libraries, recognizes their importance and as such can make surgical cuts in the best way possible. Councillor Ford's comments reflect a disdain for libraries that I'm pretty sure his brother the Mayor shares. I'm concerned they'll be using a metaphorical sledgehammer instead.
That is the WRONG location for Morningside Branch, you see Heron Park at Morningside Avenue and Manse Rd, on the south side.
THAT is the proper location of Morningside Branch. You have it at the north west corner of Morninside and Lawrence.
Call me crazy but I passed it 20 minutes ago, and I pass that area going to work from home, and reverse when I go home in the area. The NW corner has a nofrills which I shop there weekly. :)
North Etobicoke residents, before you mindlessly vote a Ford into office, maybe you should take a look around at the needs of your community first and find a representative who understands them. Of course the Fords don't value public libraries, being rich kids who have suckled the teet of white privilege their whole lives. Don't act surprised.
Here's what just happened to a scientist in Vancouver who tried to publish some science about salmon in Canada:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vancouversun.com%2Ftechnology%2FFeds%2Bsilence%2Bscientist%2Bover%2Bsalmon%2Bstudy%2F5162633%2Fstory.html&;h=_AQDhvBeh
http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Feds+silence+scientist+over+salmon+study/5162633/story.html
Maybe the Fords will put all the extra money into making the roads extra smooth. That'll be a good thing I guess, since that's were our kids will be playing after parks and rec., libraries, pools and community grants for kids' groups all have their budgets cut. Luckily there'll still be plenty of cops to enforce that "no ball playing" bylaw. Don't blow any bubbles, kids!