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Dear Giorgio, my Toronto includes graffiti

Posted by Derek Flack / May 6, 2010

graffiti alley torontoIn his latest promise to "get tough" on Toronto's criminal element, mayoral candidate Giorgio Mammoliti has indicated that he'll support councillor Sandra Bussin's (Ward 32, Beaches) plan to ban the sale of spray paint to those under the age of 18. Well, perhaps "support" isn't quite the right word. What Mammoliti wants to do is institute a more draconian plan that would see first time offenders fined $5000 for spreading graffiti or tagging buildings. He'd also like to shift responsibility away from the retailers and onto the parents for such offences, as is demonstrated by his desire to see both the perpetrator and his/her legal guardian serve community service in the wake of a graffiti conviction.

I suppose the desire of municipal politicians to curb the spread of graffiti is nothing new. But, bans like this fail to register the complex nature of the relationship between a city and its graffiti.

So, let's get two disclaimers out of the way from the outset: I generally like graffiti, and I think that much of it enriches the urban environment. There is something quite intriguing and rewarding about stumbling upon a freshly painted mural or a particularly intricate tag. Spaces that might once have been drab, artless and institutional are often reinvigorated by the presence of unsolicited art. And, what I mean by "graffiti" is street art and writing that hasn't been legally commissioned (unlike the majority of what appears in the lead photo). Although it may seem counter-intuitive, as Suzi Gablik contends, graffiti "needs criminality to maintain its ethical quality, it's a note of authenticity."

toronto graffitiA city without graffiti is surely a stolid place.

On the other hand, it's important to note that the wide-scale proliferation of graffiti has, historically speaking, been a sign of a city's lack of health -- of higher crime rates, a larger drug trade and/or general citizen apathy. New York City of the 1980s is a classic example of this tendency: as the amount of graffiti diminished in the late 80s, the crime rate soon followed.

One must, however, resist making direct and uncomplicated connections between these two trends. The sheer number of variables that play a role in the overall reduction of crime in a city make it virtually impossible to establish surefire links between discrete elements and the greater whole.

Nevertheless, I don't think it ridiculous that a mayoral candidate so vocal about cracking down on crime would target the elimination of graffiti as part of his platform. (What is ridiculous, however, is Mammoliti's suggestion that by-law officers carry guns to enforce petty crime). Graffiti, by its very nature, poses a threat to the institutional and disciplinary practices with which politicians are tasked.

toronto street artPerhaps a useful analogy in this regard comes from the work of the French theorist Michel de Certeau. In the chapter "Walking in the City" from the The Practice of Everday Life de Certeau draws a distinction between two experiences of the city. When viewed from above (he uses the example of gazing upon New York from atop the former World Trade Center), one's perspective of the city is voyeuristic, totalizing and panoptic, much like vantage point a politician or any authoritarian must adopt in the process of governance.

The elected official -- here I refer to a mayor, but it would be true of a leader of a ward, province, state or country -- must have a rational, predictable and all-encompassing plan to ensure the socioeconomic success of his or her polity. Far from something sinister, this is the very nature of his or her occupation. And so, metaphorically speaking, he or she must view the city as if on high -- surveying its entirety from a distance that separates the viewer from what happens below.

toronto graffitiContrary to this, as de Certeau argues, "The ordinary practitioners of the city live 'down below,' below the thresholds at which visibility begins. They walk--an elementary form of this experience of the city; they are walkers, Wandersmänner, whose bodies follow the thicks and thins of an urban 'text' they write without being able to read it.... The networks of these moving, intersecting writings compose a manifold story that has neither author nor spectator, shaped out of fragments of trajectories and alterations of spaces..."

I view graffiti in a similar capacity. Just as the pedestrian, the so-called "man on the street," demonstrates an almost natural resistance to the regulatory strategies of urban planning -- think of grid-like streets, traffic lights, speed limits, "keep off the grass" signs, etc. -- the graffiti artist writes an alternate text of the city, one that counters the institutionally prescribed experience of urban life. Jaywalking, short-cutting, loitering and meandering, are all tactics we use -- knowingly or not -- to refuse being fixed or funneled into predictable, repeatable behavioural patterns. Similarly, the act of taking a can of spray paint to an alley wall reveals an inherent dissatisfaction with the city as planned by its official builders, be these politicians or developers.

Not merely the act of disenfranchised and alienated youth, graffiti is representative of the collective desire to cultivate autonomy within a system that so often structures choice along consumeristic lines. The tag, the stencil, the writing of graff -- these are little eruptions of dissent, usually harmless, but always a reminder that it's possible to "be otherwise," that other versions of the city exist.

toronto graffitiFor de Certeau, the spontaneity and resourcefulness of the urban walker is demonstrative of the degree to which individual citizens animate cities. Defined by flux, the urban environment is continually written and re-written by the everyday practices of its residents, many of which rub up against official policy. Doesn't graffiti fit into this mix? Cities are continually contested spaces, and writing on a wall is one of the many ways that citizens lay claim to their environment.

Is this conception of graffiti idealistic? Yes, without doubt. So many tags are uncreative, ugly and a nuisance to property owners. But even a brief perusal of a column like Torontoist's "Vandalist" reveals the potential of graffiti to enrich a city with impromptu art.

So forgetting the pragmatic oversights of Mammoliti and Bussin's proposals -- there are plenty of people over 18 who produce graffiti, parents shouldn't be held accountable for every law that their teenager breaks -- the question becomes, do we really want to live in a city that bans minors from buying spray paint, that takes a hard stance on graffiti and that overreacts to the quiet rebellion represented by wall art?

Councillor Bussin's proposal is based on a similar -- and putatively successful -- bylaw in London, Ontario. Still, I can't remember the last time I thought that Toronto should be more like London. Even anecdotes about the days of "Toronto the Good" or "New York run by the Swedes" conjure up images a hyper-clean but ultimately characterless city.

toronto graffitiBut, alas, being an advocate for graffiti is a little like walking a tight rope: every step of your argument may be the last before you say something stupid that reveals your hopeless naivety. As such, I don't claim to have a plan that could somehow eliminate the bad graffiti and keep only the good stuff (and, besides, do people even agree on what's good and bad graffiti anyways?). With graffiti, the delightful comes hand in hand with the dirty and distasteful.

And yet, it's undeniable that the attempt to eradicate unsolicited street art reveals a political ideology that seeks to compartmentalize, fix and regulate citizen behaviour in a manner that would make the average Torontonian -- graffiti supporter or not -- most uncomfortable.

Photos by marty pinker, sniderscion, spotmaticfanatic, ibid, andyscamera and Maryam S., members of the blogTO Flickr pool.

Discussion

107 Comments

RObert / May 6, 2010 at 09:20 am
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I guess as long as you like graffiti, it really doesn't matter what the people that own those buildings or the taxpayers that own those public structures think.

That's the gist of it right?
YayGraffiti / May 6, 2010 at 09:42 am
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I know that both BlogTO and Torontoist think of themselves as young, hip websites, and that most of the contributors are about 21 years old. Nevertheless, you guys really should grow up a little bit - hire at least one adult. Once you get past the age of 25, you realize that seeing someone's scrawled initials on every building, playground structure, and sidewalk around the city is actually pretty annoying and ugly. Cleaning it off of your house or storefront is even more annoying, and being fined by the city for not cleaning it off your property fast enough is maximally annoying. Graffiti imposes real, large costs on everyone else in the city except for the person who did it. It is the same as any other type of pollution. Your factory pollutes my air and water, and that's why environmental laws exist. Economists call these costs externalities.

Taking a pro-graffiti stance is the same in my mind as taking a pro-pollution stance. It's just offensive to assert that you have some right to deface property or dump poison in streams.

You want to Fight The Man? Fine. But guess what, graffiti'ing some random neighbour's property is not, in fact, fighting the Man. It's just setting that neighbour up for a wasted Saturday afternoon with scrub brush or paint. Fuck you for wasting my Saturday.
Sean / May 6, 2010 at 09:49 am
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Shouldn't the graf community be thanking Mamo for upping the "cred" of their art form by making it even more risky to do?
DeletingComments / May 6, 2010 at 09:56 am
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They're deleting anti-graffiti comments now. That's sad.
mr hate / May 6, 2010 at 10:04 am
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1
"plan to ban the sale of spray paint to those under the age of 18"

This is laughably stupid since nobody knows who is doing the graffiti-ing. And, any -18 year old could simply get an 18+ year old to buy the stuff for them.

2
This gasbaggy essay on graffiti conveniently omits what is at the core of all uncommissioned graffiti: a complete and utter disrespect for other people's property and property belonging to everybody. Why is that? Why is the cost of clean up not discussed? Why are property owners' rights completely unmentioned? You don't even bother to talk about the actual issues.

3
"the act of taking a can of spray paint to an alley wall reveals an inherent dissatisfaction with the city as planned by its official builders, be these politicians or developers"

So little Jimmy the 16 year old painting TONE in 10 foot letters on a wall is making a statement about urban planning or city politics? Are you f'ing kidding?

4
You can't have it both ways and oppose the a**holes who write their names 30 times on storefronts along Spadina but gush over some mural because it has cute type.

5
"the attempt to eradicate unsolicited street art reveals a political ideology that seeks to compartmentalize, fix and regulate citizen behaviour in a manner that would make the average Torontonian -- graffiti supporter or not -- most uncomfortable"

No. Taking measures to stop graffiti is a reasonable attempt to prevent people from damaging other people's things. Nothing more, nothing less.

6
Why don't you invite that Utah jacka** to come spray paint UTAH on your garage door. Or, more likely, your landlord's garage door. Oh, wait, she's in jail. Jailtime may be a tad harsh, but her 10 grand fine is a drop in the bucket compared to the damage to people's property she has inflicted around the world.

7
You're pro graffiti. That will never change until you're a victim of it. Or until you're a little older.
Alexandra / May 6, 2010 at 10:04 am
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I don't like simple tags on monuments and buildings but the intricate graffiti that marks many of Toronto's alleys are simply stunning and I would hate to live in a city that didn't invite that kind of art. There's definitely a place for graffiti in any urban area...
Derek replying to a comment from DeletingComments / May 6, 2010 at 10:06 am
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Your comment wasn't deleted, YayGraffiti/DeletingComments. Because you used profanity, our filter put it into moderation. I had to manually publish it to the site.
scottd / May 6, 2010 at 10:13 am
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Give me a break. There is only one Banksy and then a million who do derivative boring work and then 10 million who just tag their name with a a marker.Most of this "art form" are just creating visual pollution that bugs me just as much as much as advertising signs and electronic billboards do. Hey Rami, how about starting "illegal graffiti". 99% of it is crap and people should be punished for inflicting it in our public space.
mr hate / May 6, 2010 at 10:25 am
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Hey wait let me take this photo of a flower in a gun barrel into photoshop and use the posterize function set at 2 or 3.

Wow, so difficult.

That is Banksy.

And people fall all over themselves praising this talentless hack.

The dork who does cartoons for the school paper is more of an artist than him.

Chantelle / May 6, 2010 at 11:11 am
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If you don't like graffiti, move to rural Canada.
It is part of urban life. A vital part. Culture happens everywhere, not just where and how you feel safe about it. Toronto is barely a city in the context of the world. At least it has this. Good grief.
Note: I am over 25.
Disrepectfully Disagree replying to a comment from Chantelle / May 6, 2010 at 11:15 am
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Why limit to just buildings?

Why not encourage people to tag people's personal cars?

Wouldn't you just love to come out one morning and see a great big cock n' balls with "Honk if U R Horny" scrawled along the side of your ride?

Just bask in the warm glow of all that culture and biting cultural commentary!
Young Graffiti Artist / May 6, 2010 at 11:17 am
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If you don't like graffiti, move to rural Canada.
It is part of urban life. A vital part. Culture happens everywhere, not just where and how you feel safe about it. Toronto is barely a city in the context of the world. At least it has this. Good grief.
Note: I am over 25.
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I wish my friends and I knew where you lived so we could go spray paint our names on your front door. And then after you spent time and money to clean it off, we could come do it again. Maybe we'll spray paint your windows too. And your car. You're cool with that, right? Or do you just want us to spray paint our names on other people's property? Either way, thanks for being so supportive of our art. You're the best.
m / May 6, 2010 at 11:21 am
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Street art is great. If it's done well, it is engaging, thought-provoking and visually appealing. My Toronto includes colour, life and public expression through art or other creative means.

Robert: you missed the point. The owners of these buildings/structures absolutely have a say in this issue, but their opinion should not be the be all and end all. Consider: did the owners of those buildings and structures consult with the USERS of the public space when considering their design? Sometimes, but not always. Often the owners don't even live in the area where the buildings or structures reside. Yet the community has to look at and deal with these structures every day. Ownership should not be dictatorship. Sharing is caring.
hi / May 6, 2010 at 11:21 am
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I remember when I used to write my self-made nickname on my binder in huge crayola markers in highschool.

Then you grow older and want to put that binder on a wall for everyone to see.
gadfly / May 6, 2010 at 11:22 am
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It's the right of passage for disenfranchised young adults: rage against the machine, protest the G20, ban nukes, graffiti everywhere Then they get a decent job, a mortgage and a car - suddenly their world changes.
No silly laws are going to change that. Why not bring back mandatory military service? (Joking, of course.)
David Topping replying to a comment from YayGraffiti / May 6, 2010 at 11:23 am
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<em>"most [Torontoist] contributors are about 21 years old."</em>

<a href="http://torontoist.com/staff.php";>Nope!</a>
Elize Morgan / May 6, 2010 at 11:23 am
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Hardly a surprise that a lot of folks don't like the tagging of monuments - I'm incredibly pro-graffiti art (and, shockingly, older than 25), and I think that stencil art is not only helpful (all those little holes marked out for cyclists? Handy) - but there's a difference here of being pro-graffiti ART (which this article is about), and pro-random defacement (which seems to be what a majority of the commenters are upset with). There is a distinct difference.
Ej / May 6, 2010 at 11:25 am
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Wow. I never really understood how conservative Toronto was until reading these comments. And to think I moved here to get away from this kind of pointless bi-partisanship.

I grew up in a country where graffiti was just there. No one really paid much attention, except to the really cool, eye-popping stuff. Most of what Toronto has isn't offensive or obvious, and what's obvious is usually fairly talented work. Sure, what's offensive should be cracked down on, but none of the measures posted above are going to accomplish that.
Aaron / May 6, 2010 at 11:27 am
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Despite being in my thirties I happen to like (good) graffiti.
That said, I would never take the childish stance that we somehow protect the non-existent rights of people to spray paint on other people's property.

Nor would I take the childish stance of assuming that graffiti in Toronto will stop as a result of banning spraypaint sales to minors or imposing stiffer fines. If I own property in the city, it's going to get paint on it, I'm not going to cry about it.
Jason Nolan / May 6, 2010 at 11:31 am
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I like graffiti... speaking as a late 40s professional. It is a socio-political response to marginalization and silencing by a society that has few meaningful opportunities for many segments of society. If you want graffiti to go foster autonomy in children and youth, and provide them with models for active civic participation that represents their own socio-cultural development, and you'll find that that they will develop ways of expressing themselves that might be more congruent with the larger community. Just my thoughts on it.
AV / May 6, 2010 at 11:31 am
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I think you all need to differentiate between a mural, a bomb, and a tag. Tags are vandalism and have no place. Murals and bombs are artwork and deserve to be seen.
Mike / May 6, 2010 at 11:32 am
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Chantelle, I too like good street art and I too would like to see it in our cities but on property where permission was given. Would I love for the city to commission a Banksy-like artist to freshen up the Gardiner Expressway? I sure would. Otherwise, how might my definition of "good" differ from yours? You might think a scribble on the underside of a freeway is "good" but I don't. It's highly objective and just because you think the most amazing art looks good on my doorstep doesn't give you the right to do it. I've never heard a street artist successfully defend the reason for defacing someone else's property. That includes public property. It's not yours, it's someone else's, including the taxpayers who don't want it. "If you don't like graffiti, move to rural Canada?" Should we move to rural Canada because we don't like crime, poverty or homelessness or should we stay and try to make our cities more livable for EVERYONE?
Elvedin / May 6, 2010 at 11:36 am
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We should also outlaw the sale of sporting goods to minors, lest they participate in EXTREME sports.

We should also compare visual pollution with physical pollution as if the effect is the same on the earth and not just our own prudish morals.

We should also stifle culture that we're not a part of and don't really understand.

We should also use specious reasoning and conjure the most ridiculous examples when defending our narrow-minded worldview.

We should also become bland, boring, money-focused drones once we hit the age of 25.

Enough sass. I propose we outlaw all of the good, pretty, interesting graffiti and just encourage everyone to write their name and "Honk if U R Horny" on every surface imaginable. Because that's what we're ACTUALLY DOING if we allow kids to get their hands on art supplies and, you know, address their emotions instead of worrying how to better further their career and stock portfolio. Never too early.
Gangles / May 6, 2010 at 11:47 am
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Graffiti, with all of its cultural impact and importance, is vandalism. I'm not talking about buildings that have allowed graffiti, because those are murals.

I am talking about my local businesses that need to hire expensive cleaners to come out and scrub someone's name off their building.

But oh I forgot, this is artistic expression! Therefore, legal practices like, owning property don't matter. Like the poster above said, lets get enthusiatic about tagging cars. Better yet: lets tag peoples jackets and umbrellas! No, no, guys its cool because its art!

Honestly, the more blogs like this promote it and make it cool, the worse this problem will get. I'll tell you what, in a few years when you own a house or a condo, let me come over and write something on your front door. You don't get a say in what it is; it might be my name, or an anti-government message, or a flacid penis. Then we can talk about how graffiti is part of your city.
momo / May 6, 2010 at 11:48 am
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Unsolicited graffiti is just disrespectful and narcissistic. The idea that you are so bloody special that you're entitled to deface public and private property is just offensive and should not be encouraged. Paint your own damn walls.
mr hate / May 6, 2010 at 12:13 pm
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Pro-graffiti people:

Does a person's desire to spraypaint his name or a shlong on my garage door more important than my desire to have a non-vandalized garage door?

It's a very simple question.
kay666 / May 6, 2010 at 12:18 pm
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Come spray paint my house. I don't care. Maybe then the kids will GET OFF MY LAWN!
mr hate / May 6, 2010 at 12:23 pm
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Oop. IS a person's desire etc etc
Lori / May 6, 2010 at 12:39 pm
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Personally, my Toronto excludes graffiti. I like beautiful murals, not tagging or intricate graffiti. I hate going on the subway or the go train and seeing all that crap.
geriatricjimmy replying to a comment from YayGraffiti / May 6, 2010 at 12:58 pm
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I'm over 25 and still appreciate a good piece of graffiti now and again. So I'm confused. Am I a punk, an idiot, or both?
JayDub / May 6, 2010 at 01:03 pm
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Actually, if we ban the sale of spray paint to people under 18 then I can just start buying it in bulk and selling it on the corner with an excellent markup.

Really, it's win-win for me at this point.
kaosagent / May 6, 2010 at 02:00 pm
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An exterior wall that has no setback from the street/sidewalk is considered public property, in my mind.
Jason Kolesnikowicz / May 6, 2010 at 02:01 pm
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I can't believe some of the commenters here who seem to think that defacing someone else's property/using it as a canvas without their permission is OK. This has nothing to do with being prudish, this is about basic respect for the rights of others. No one is stifling anybody's right to paint so long as they have permission from the owner. Without permission it's just vandalism.
Elvedin / May 6, 2010 at 02:08 pm
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When the city expends the effort to rid itself of the UGLINESS and VANDALISM of billboards and other eyesore advertising, then I'll consider getting behind the movement to keep art supplies out of the hands of children.
Someone with a brain / May 6, 2010 at 02:21 pm
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kaosagent / MAY 6, 2010 AT 2:00 PM

An exterior wall that has no setback from the street/sidewalk is considered public property, in my mind.
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What an amazing mind you have.

That wall belongs to someone.

The property owner gets to decide what goes or doesn't go on that wall, not you.


Bentley / May 6, 2010 at 02:24 pm
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Elvedin: Hear hear! My thoughts exactly. I'm a working professional, and I've always liked how graffiti challenges the notions of public space.

What really hurts my eyes is the glut of advertising and billboards competing for our attention, in giant CAPS, and insipid puns... what intrinsic right does a corporation have to be able to scrawl nonsense right across the public landscape?

Give the kids art supplies; I'll take a local mural over giant Koodo ads, or dancing iPod walls any day.
Akswun / May 6, 2010 at 03:15 pm
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My Toronto always included graffiti...

But unfortunately, as a former so called punk kid, the progression of a graffiti artist starts with Tagging then onto Bombing then onto full out Pieces.
(Graffiti Lingo=http://www.graffiti.org/faq/graffiti.glossary.html)

I can understand that seeing Tags on trains and various nook and cranny in the city can be an eyesore. But when that artist really learns to hone their skill some serious masterpieces can be made. I'm not saying their means to an end is justifiable. Graffiti wouldn't be as thought provoking unless it was illegal.

Downtown Toronto is littered with Tags but there are various parts of the city that are covered in amazing *pieces(masterpiece). These certain parts of the city would be drab and lifeless without these pieces. And now a days a majority of the massive murals have been allowed by the owners of the property.

I feel for property owners who have had their spaces violated. Of course nobody wants their property Tagged up, it depreciates the value of their property in turn their community.

But really, where is this graffiti happening? it's NOT happening on your garage door or your front door or your car or your face.... It's happening in alleyways, viaducts and drab industrial areas. Yes downtown Toronto is littered with tags ie. Queen St and the sort but full out pieces aren't happening on the fronts of their stores. If anything Graffiti in Toronto has eased up and has been focused on areas where existing graffiti has been done.

It is artwork and not everyone is going to enjoy it. Just like art that you may buy from a shop it may not be your cup of tea. There will always be critics, Graffiti artists are the biggest critics when it comes to other graf artists.

Love it or hate it... it will always be around. The more focus lawmakers put on combating it, it will just fuel more and more artists out there to step up their game. Their street cred becomes even higher. The more these *punk kids keep on doing it.

Akswun/AKS1/Acts1erz/Mibs
(*btw I'm 29 and am a working professional)


Sharon Harris / May 6, 2010 at 03:30 pm
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Elvedin sums up my thoughts as well with, "When the city expends the effort to rid itself of the UGLINESS and VANDALISM of billboards and other eyesore advertising, then I'll consider getting behind the movement to keep art supplies out of the hands of children."

Until the people have a voice that's louder than the corporations' in our public space, I support graf. No one "gives permission" to individual artists to paint on the walls, but they'll gladly sell permission to corporations.

I'll continue to write articles about graffiti, create websites displaying it, and curate exhibitions of street art. I'm not saying graffiti is a perfect solution. The distance between the haves and the have-nots is only getting further. Expect to see more graffiti.

Check out the latest from TO's Posterchild on Woostercollective.com for an example of what I'm sayin' -- great work.

Sharon Harris

Age: 37

"Revolution, I love you." -Paris graffiti, May 1968
keven replying to a comment from Bentley / May 6, 2010 at 03:34 pm
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"what intrinsic right does a corporation have to be able to scrawl nonsense right across the public landscape? "

Gee, that's a tough one. What is permission and/or ownership? For 1000 dollars Alex.
keven replying to a comment from Sharon Harris / May 6, 2010 at 03:40 pm
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I'm sure the city would be just as equal and happy about selling permission to these so-called artists.

Art supplies are tins of spray paint nowadays? Nice hyperbole.
Unda / May 6, 2010 at 03:48 pm
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As an American visiting Canada, I love Toronto graffiti - http://vimeo.com/10964733
six / May 6, 2010 at 04:06 pm
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I come from East London in the UK
Graffiti is part of urban living and if you don't like it move out of the city. A splash of colour helps give Toronto charm and relief from all the grey people sipping coffees in 'trendy' bars thinking they are the next best thing.
James / May 6, 2010 at 05:10 pm
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I don't much care for Mammoliti but he's right. Graffiti is obnoxious. In most cases it is ugly. Most of all it is illegal.

A few examples of "good" graffiti don't make up for the spray that is all over the park signs and the legitimate authorized murals near my house.
Sharon Harris replying to a comment from keven / May 6, 2010 at 05:38 pm
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I'm sure the artists would be just as equal and happy about having the $ to purchase permission, keven, but I can't think of one who could afford to do so.

Bentley / May 6, 2010 at 05:42 pm
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"Gee, that's a tough one. What is permission and/or ownership? For 1000 dollars Alex."

Ah, well I've got a bone to pick with the laughable myth of "ownership"; but that might be opening a can of worms best reserved for another thread!
Robert replying to a comment from m / May 6, 2010 at 05:48 pm
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This is such an easy issue.

The building belongs to Mr. X, Mr. Y does not have the right to spray paint on the exterior of the building for any reason without permission.

Other than that, it's just people trying to rationalize the issue by calling it "urban", so we should expect the vandalism. Or there is the "art" angle, where one mans right to create art trumps anothers right against vandalism. Or there is the "public space" argument where it's the public's space so an individual has the right to paint a huge piece without anyone's consent, but if an employee of Coke or Pepsi wanted to paint their respective company logos it would be illegal and beyond the pale.

This issue is beyond ages and professions, it is the vandalism of private property, that's it. Whether in Guelph or downtown Toronto, the rights of a property owner don't change.

Also remember that the graffiti that we may look at and appreciate the skill involved is often in the minority and it still doesn't make it right.

End of.

mikeb replying to a comment from Akswun / May 6, 2010 at 06:07 pm
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Get real. It is happening on garage doors. And in streetcars, on bus shelters etc.

When I paint over or clean off some taggers marks on my garage door, I hate the fact that I have to waste my time and money doing it. Once the paint has dried, I feel a bit better knowing that I am not the only one who wasted my time.
ruhee replying to a comment from David Topping / May 6, 2010 at 07:02 pm
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are there really no non-white blogto contributors? really??
Derek replying to a comment from ruhee / May 6, 2010 at 07:15 pm
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There are indeed non-white contributors at blogTO. The staff list to which you refer represents writers and photographers over at Torontoist (whom I'm sure are all for having a diverse set of voices).
ruhee replying to a comment from Derek / May 6, 2010 at 07:27 pm
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oh, great, so it's only the people in power who are white. my mistake.
Robert replying to a comment from Bentley / May 6, 2010 at 07:32 pm
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the "myth of ownership".

Really? If someone buys a building, they own it. Myth Busted.
CONOR BROWN replying to a comment from six / May 6, 2010 at 08:18 pm
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WHAT HE SAID.
Jim / May 6, 2010 at 08:26 pm
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Hey BlogTO staff, seeing as you guys love graffitti so much please come to my house tomorrow morning, my garage was just tagged and I'd like your help in cleaning it off. I'm guessing you won't come.
Fun TImes / May 6, 2010 at 08:37 pm
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If a graffiti jerk can spray paint a building owned by me without my permission, it stands to reason that I can spray paint the back of his hoodie or his car or anything else he owns without his permission.
m / May 6, 2010 at 08:46 pm
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Jim: if someone loves graffiti, why would they help you REMOVE the graffiti from your garage?

Robert: in your world, money = ownership. So the richest people own the most stuff. And also in your world, ownership = entitlement / decision making power. So the richest people, since they own the most stuff, they get to make decisions about most stuff. Don't you see something fundamentally wrong with that?

Graffiti reminds us that we all own this city.
mish replying to a comment from m / May 6, 2010 at 09:03 pm
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m is the smartest person in the room.
Fun Times / May 6, 2010 at 09:13 pm
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wow m is so clueless

Ownership means entitlement/decision making power over the f'ing item that is OWNED.
My garage isn't worth a million dollars. It's about to collapse. But keep your f'ing spraypaint of it since THE GARAGE IS MINE. Your tagging or art is neither welcomed nor required. Why in f'ing hell can you not respect what is mine? Why do you have so little respect for your fellow human being?
m replying to a comment from Fun Times / May 6, 2010 at 11:04 pm
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It is unfortunate that someone tagged your collapsing garage. But your garage isn't exactly the community space that is being discussed.

I do have respect for my fellow human being. I respect my fellow human beings' right to express their opinions, whether on a concrete road divider using paint, or on a blog post using typed words. In fact, I have more respect for my fellow human being than for property or material things. Which is why it concerns me when people believe that ownership gives power to overrule the opinions of users who can't afford ownership. To me, usership is much more important than ownership. But I digress....

I don't think anyone here is saying that we want graffiti to be legalized. We're just saying that we appreciate it, for a variety of reasons. I also enjoy and encourage other forms of "unauthorized" street art, like postering, yarn bombing and guerilla gardening. Funny how knitted lamp post sweaters don't illicit the same negative response from the same people who vehemently oppose a spray-painted picture.
Robert replying to a comment from m / May 6, 2010 at 11:28 pm
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We all don't own this city. That's not "my world", that's called "the world".

The city of Toronto is a corporation, the shareholders of the corporation are the taxpayers and landowners.

Just because you don't seem to understand the basic premise of ownership doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sometime my kids will grab another kids toys and start playing with it and I have to take it away and remind them that it is not their toy and they should ask permission if they would like to use it. I don't want to suppose that this lesson was never passed onto you, which is too bad because you appear to be an adult that doesn't understand that the world tends to be a rather fair place, and if you have a good head on your shoulders and work hard you can earn money, buy a home/possessions and even make decisions about your home/possessions.

I want to just write "you're an idiot", but really it's too bad that you really just don't get how life works. Some people just don't get it, maybe they never will. I really don't see how anybody with any sense of awareness could say that someone painting a mural/graffiti on the side of a building they don't own without permission would be anything but illegal. It's so basic, if you ever have children and a home just remember what you've wrote here when you come home and they've taken a sharpie to a wall in your house.
Derek / May 6, 2010 at 11:45 pm
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"the world tends to be a rather fair place, and if you have a good head on your shoulders and work hard you can earn money, buy a home/possessions and even make decisions about your home/possessions."

This statement robs you of all credibility, particularly as you purport to teach others what it means to be mature and wise. If you said Toronto and not "the world" I might be more forgiving, but this type of naivety is, frankly, startling.
Emz / May 7, 2010 at 12:40 am
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speaking of Banksy, don't forget to check out his new street art documentary that just started (officially) showing in Toronto @ AMC YD Square today.. details at www.banksyfilm.com
Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 01:02 am
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Wait, lets be fair, no one "owns" anything... the idea of ownership is a cultural construct that varies across cultures. Any set of rules can be cobbled together, but at best, it only has validity if we all collectively agree to abide to the man-made laws; something akin to a shared consensual hallucination.

Where does your ownership end and the rest of the universe begin?
Eric26 replying to a comment from Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 03:18 am
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What a ridiculous question. It ends where the law defines it.
That is all. I don't know why I, or anyone else, even bothers debating this because it's clear that there are:
a) the people that understand the law.
b) people who live in a magical fantasy land where they don't have to abide by the laws that they don't particularly like.
Please leave my country. You don't belong here, you belong in Rainbow Unicorn Land. I know it's not fair, but by simply being born a Canadian citizen (or however you come about it) you have to follow our laws. If you don't want to, leave. Leave now.
I think Fun Times said it best though, and m's idiotic response really captured how out of touch people like him ('m') are. "It is unfortunate that someone tagged your collapsing garage. But your garage isn't exactly the community space that is being discussed."
IN OTHER WORDS: "I know that this is a real issue but I'm going to ignore it"
Thanks! Fun Times isn't a corporate fatcat so let's just ignore his anecdote because it doesn't fit in with your ridiculous idea. Why can't you understand how legislation works? It would be IMPOSSIBLE for a law to exist which stated, "graffiti is okay as long as it's artistic". My god, can you imagine? We would need a whole new Mounted Graffiti Police Force. The most logical solution is to continue to respect the laws which state you CANNOT deface someone else's property, whether that property is owned by someone fabulously wealthy or someone quite destitute.
I don't care if someone painted a bloody masterpiece on my wall, if I don't want it there it should not be there.
Christy / May 7, 2010 at 05:58 am
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I love graffiti. And I love this article. Well done.

Having loved graffiti for a long time - for both its artistic aspects and the hard to describe stepping outside of the lines that you have so well written about here - I find the new anti spray can law abhorrent. And how many laws and restrictions are youths already subject to? Do they really need another one? Graffiti is a way for people who do not have conventional outlets to make themselves and their views known. We disenfranchise people in many ways in the city - taking away the voice that graffiti gives could be the last straw for some people.

I could go on and on, but... I was thinking today about how councillor Bussin links all graffiti to gangs and violence. That's true of some graffiti, but not all. In the same vein, some art and writing is linked to ideas she wouldn't like. Is it fair to stifle an entire medium of expression because it's possible to express something that others won't agree with?
I think not.
gadfly replying to a comment from Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 07:57 am
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Like I said before, it's amazing how one's perspective changes when one actually OWNS something or has something worth protecting.
The same rabble who show up at all the G20 summits are the same rabble who feel they have the 'right' to deface other people's property.
Imagine a world without property or property right. Actually, it was tried once: it's call Communism and look where that got the Soviet Union and China?
The 'artists' are always going to agitate and the 'police state' push back. It's just tough to define what art is, that's all.
m replying to a comment from Eric26 / May 7, 2010 at 10:08 am
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Once again, I would like to reiterate that I don't think anyone here is saying that we want graffiti to be legalized. But I must say, I just LOVE it when people use "THE LAW" as their rationale. A few generations ago, it was THE LAW to own black people. Women were not legally allowed to vote. Chinese people had to pay head tax. Would you like to comment about how great those laws were?

I work with Canadian law everyday in my profession. I have a more intimate knowledge with it than the average Canadian. And I know that there are serious issues with our current laws, and that they heavily favour certain groups (who are already privileged as it is).

Sadly, the people who think that the world is fair, and that Canadian laws and police are righteous are truly narrow minded. They will never understand concepts such as "cultural constructs". It's like talking to a plain, grey, privately-owned concrete wall.
The Shakes / May 7, 2010 at 10:34 am
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Pro-graffiti = big fat hypocrite. You're all very supportive as long as it's not your property.
The Shakes / May 7, 2010 at 10:44 am
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Pro-graffiti = big fat hypocrite. You're all very supportive, so long as it isn't your property.
akswun replying to a comment from mikeb / May 7, 2010 at 10:46 am
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lol at your dilapidated garage getting tagged up...

it's rare for 'taggers' or graffiti artist to tag or bomb up clean and open spaces...

usual targets for graffiti artists are buses,trains, broken down structures and industrial areas. Usually the latter gets the full out 'piece' treatment. Buses and trains get tagged up, either with sandpaper(scratch tags) or markers. Bombing(throwups) of trains don't happen on the TTC(mind you some opinions need to be thrown up on trains towards the TTC) because of the so called 'Silver Elephant' protection. Paint doesn't adhere to TTC trains ala NYC.

Mike W replying to a comment from m / May 7, 2010 at 01:33 pm
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So you think in day in the future it will be looked upon with disgust that a property owner (govt incld) should expect their property to be free of someone's tagging?
Or were you refering to the idea of owning property?

What laws are currently broken? What groups over currently over privileged? Property owners?

You claim you're concerned property owners feel they're opinions overrule those of non owners but I fail to see where they claim to overrule your opinion on issues outside the property they own.

If I spend the substantial amount on a location for business downtown do I have no more rights and opinions on that space than the people who walk by it?

If you feel you have the right to the contents of a blank wall what gives your opinion a greater weight than those of other passers-by, who more-likely-than-not wouldn't agree with your opinions for the wall, or the owner, who has their own opinions on the wall they own.


And did you really compare slave owning, head tax, to property rights? Give your head a shake.
Robert / May 7, 2010 at 04:25 pm
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I think that everyone who disagrees with graffiti should just stop the commenting. If someone is thick headed enough to not understand why they don't have the right to vandalize someone else's establishment or property by now, THEY WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND.

Some people are just able to understand concepts that require thinking outside of themselves. It's like the guy who gives someone the finger when they think they are getting cut off on the road, and than also get pissed off when someone gives them the finger for doing something similar. Some people have the skill of critical thinking, and some don't. To equate slavery and racism with graffiti is surprising, I'm not sure if future generations will look at us in disgust for making vandalism illegal.
Fun Times / May 7, 2010 at 04:46 pm
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Introducing some subjective ranking of acceptable or unacceptable applications of spray paint to property not belonging to the spray painter is just stupid.

Pro-graffiti people are the finest example of NIMBYs I've ever seen. You love graffiti except when it's on your property. You couldn't care less about the property owner's rights. They should suck it up so your urban life experience is all real and edgy and cool and sh*t.
Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 05:34 pm
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I can't speak for M, but an open, intelligent discourse shouldn't resort to name calling. I really wasn't referring to owning property with regards to graffiti, but was questioning the very notion of "ownership".

"What a ridiculous question. It ends where the law defines it."

Ok, I was playing the role of devil's advocate slightly, and while I do observe the "relative" world, I don't necessarily agree with most of it. Stating that it's, "the law", doesn't really hold much ground as an argument; it's pretty much akin to stating, "cause, Bob, said so!" To bring up M's point again, laws are artificial and will change over time; it was the law to own slaves at one time and women couldn't vote, etc...

Different cultures, have different attitudes towards "owning" things, and I contend nothing can be truly possessed. When white man arrived in North America, they butted heads with the natives, because of different attitudes to private property... White man had this preposterous notion that one could divvy up nature and own it (perhaps stemming from their belief of God given Stewardship over the land; which is sort of a frightening notion in itself, consulting fictitious texts to justify dominion over animals and trees).

You'd have to be a pretty special boy for that sort of entitlement. Are you separate from the rest of the universe? Possession is an illusion, and isn't an intrinsic "law". You should learn to think for yourself, instead of getting trapped in the thoughts of others and letting the "outside" dictate what's going on "inside".

I'll end on this little nugget to mull over:

” Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that you cannot eat money.”

- Cree Indian Prophecy
Robert replying to a comment from Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 06:48 pm
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Really??
"Nothing can be owned"

So, who owns the laptop that I'm typing on? I'm pretty sure it is me.

Oh wait a second......."white man", "Cree Indian Prophecy"

Okay, so you're THAT guy.

(also, I'm pretty sure that Cree Indian might be redundant)
Bentley replying to a comment from Robert / May 7, 2010 at 09:49 pm
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Serves me right for attempting some discource on the interwebs. Best to bow out now, less I get mistaken for the fool.

"I bought it with my own money, it's mine!"

/facepalm

You can use derision all you like to deflect actually having to think, but that's not quite the way arguements work.

I suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate as a start and perhaps move up from there?

And the Cree are pretty much the largest group of First Nations peole in Canada; so nothing really redundant there.

*hugs*
Christy / May 7, 2010 at 10:53 pm
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"Pro-graffiti people" are not one big homogeneous group. Many of the anti-graffiti responses profile "those people" based on no information whatsoever, assuming they all belong to the same demographic. The repetition of this argument is rather tedious.

Ps. Thanks for the excellent links on here, those who posted them. :)
Robert replying to a comment from Bentley / May 7, 2010 at 11:56 pm
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Maybe I should explain the word redundant: Superfluous, or able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.

As in, a Cree is an indian/native adjective, so Cree Indian is like saying Canuck Canadian, etc.

Also, the first section of your comments does not make sense, and commenting on ownership of property isn't derision, but talking about the your personal, and incredibly subjective beliefs on ownership however is derision.

And it's too late for you to not be mistaken a fool, I figured it out after your first comment.
Mike W replying to a comment from Bentley / May 8, 2010 at 02:07 am
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I wish you could have a talk with former slaves and the payers of head tax. I think you'd find their views on the injustice of property law in relation to their own plights surprising.

Also, you can argue the views of non-ownership all you like. It's not the reality we live in.
Graffiti "artists" will continue to tag buildings they feel are theirs to deface but I doubt the property owner forced to cut into this week's revenue to clean it to avoid city fines appreciates your little brand of personal expression.
Maybe if these "artists" stopped to think of the implications of tagging beyond their own public masturbation they'd realize it's just selfish.
gadfly replying to a comment from m / May 8, 2010 at 09:06 am
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... oh can we just go one thread without bringing Canada's tarnished past into this? Yeah, we get it: white Canadians are BAD and use the law to hold down the poor and the immigrants.
I'm no big fan of the 'Law' either, having been on the short end of it more than once, but it is what it is. Look at every backwater nation on earth and you will find that the root problems it has are the disrespect or absence of law. It is the Anglo-Canadian rule of law that has greatly contributed to this becoming among the greatest nations on earth.
Graffiti is defacement, no amount of rationalization is going to alter that.
akswun / May 8, 2010 at 11:05 am
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I don't get where any of the people here that are PRO-Graffiti in any way wanting it to be legalized....

Graffiti would not be graffiti if it was legal... that would just make it a mural at the property owners request like a billboard...

cee / May 8, 2010 at 05:20 pm
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Like Christy has mentioned, this discussion has repeatedly devolved into stereotypical (and hyberbolic) assumptions about the people who hold a view opposing our own. Proponents of graffiti are invariably labeled as self-entitled delinquents just as graffiti's critics tend to be money-grubbing office jockeys. Neither are true, and neither are conducive to any argument to be made for or against graffiti. Let's steer the conversation away from stereotypes and keep it respectful.

I see graffiti as an artistic medium. When it is done well, I think it is a pleasure to see and experience, and I would be very saddened to see this medium go. But I also acknowledge that there are laws in place to protect people who have to pay to maintain and fix their property--and suffer as a result of any public defacement. In my mind, there is little argument to be made against ownership. I see a beautiful mural as art; there will always be another who will see it as vandalism, and if that happens to be the owner, they ought not to suffer the consequences of removing it.

That said, I think restricting the sale of spray-paint cans to minors is hardly an effective solution to the problem. Minors can easily still find ways to get cans and spray paint on walls when no one is looking. Outlawing spray paint will only be enforcing the graffiti's premise as a counter-intuitive form of expression and/or authenticity.
Marc / May 8, 2010 at 07:00 pm
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Graffiti is not neutral and does not look good. It is pollution. That's all. Aim for beauty and preservation, not ruining things.
L / May 9, 2010 at 04:46 pm
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"I hate going into subways and seeing all that crap"

!!??? WOW.. but it's OK to have 30 FOOT ADVERTISEMENTS and BILLBOARDS everywhere with naked women on their knees before a bottle of Vodka? Or ad's all over the subway telling us to get our FLU SHOT? Or ads in the bloody urinals with 16 year old girls glossed up like whores telling us to buy something, oder something, watch something?? Ads Plastered on the sides of streetcars with images of toilet paper, banks, shoes, purses, bikinis, etc... WTF?

Get your heads on straight people. Who are the REAL OFFENDERS?? BILLBOARDS pollute and contaminate our daily lives EVERYWHERE. 1/2 of them are ILLEGAL and they are NOT ART. While at least 1/2 the stuff I see as good graffiti is Colourful, Expressive, Vibrant and Unique.. and best of all GRAFFITI"S NOT TRYING TO SELL ME SOME SHIT!!

Enough said. Graffiti over Billboards any day. Billboards should be painted over!
Lull replying to a comment from Robert / May 9, 2010 at 05:33 pm
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It is REALLY scary to see how many people are SHEEP and CATTLE here.

"It's the Law, gosh darn it. Don't question authority." Baa Baa. Moooo Moooo.

(And I am 39 not 21, and live a responsible life- Doesn't mean I agree with all the "laws" out there.)

And you're a mature, wise success because you 'own' property and assets? That gives foundation to your opinion? Hahaha. That's like saying George Bush was an intelligent man, since he was President of the United States... and we ALL know that is not true.

You're a cog in a wheel, an insignifigant creature who follows rules without question, pro creates without passion, and exists without one unique thought in your programmed little brain. You bought a house in the suburbs, have 2.5 kids, a full time job with benefits and you have nothing meaningful to contribute to the whole human race. Your only purpose is to consume whatever you're told to buy and maintain a facade of plastic perfection, untainted by graffiti, a crooked tooth, weeds on the lawn, a scar on your child's knee... (The latter of which are all pretty lovely when viewed with an open mind.)

Your opinion here is null and void due to the lack of real, raw Life Experience. You are voiceless in a world of colourful ideas. You are as grey and dull as the back alley walls that are just waiting to be painted by a hand sparked with an inspiration.

How do you keep your bubble from bursting?

Go back to living in your perfect, unsullied little world, much akin to an IKEA catalogue and SEARS insert.

Remember: "There is a crack in everything. That's how the Light gets in." Leonard Cohen
Robert replying to a comment from Lull / May 10, 2010 at 08:09 am
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If you think that the people that spray Anarchy symbols and go to Bad Religion concerts aren't a part of some cog in a wheel, than you're just naive. Thinking that getting a tattoo and wearing your grandfathers cardigan around makes you "unique", because I know at least 20 people just like you.

No one is as unique as they think with regards to how they look, what they buy, where they live.

I hop you're post makes you feel better about who you are and what you believe, because it does little else.
MrPotato / May 10, 2010 at 09:07 am
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It doesnt matter if you like it.
Aaron replying to a comment from MrPotato / May 10, 2010 at 09:09 am
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It doesn't matter if you ban it.
Po replying to a comment from Robert / May 10, 2010 at 09:51 am
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It's not about "how they look, what they buy, where they live". It's what they DO that makes them NOT a cog like you. But you don't understand this. You will never understand this. Because all you think about is how you look, what you buy, where you live.... and how "thick headed" everyone ELSE is. You are HILARIOUS!!!!!!
Mike W replying to a comment from L / May 10, 2010 at 10:24 am
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Billboards pay for the space, can generate revenue for the property owner, and can be removed if illegal (http://illegalsigns.ca), at the expense of the poster.

Unwanted grafitti is removed at the expense of the property owner, and benefits only the tagger's ego.

Mike W replying to a comment from Lull / May 10, 2010 at 10:47 am
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The sad sad reality is you and Po's opinions are just as valuable/worthless as Robert's. You think you have more "Life Experience" but all you do is make assumptions about the other camp and what they know, what they do, and their motives.

You talk like being a cog is a bad thing. Machines work because of cogs. What have you armchair anarchists contributed to society lately? Certainly not your "art", certainly if it has to be scrubbed off a building wall because it's unwanted.

You assume just because a person lives unlike you their opinion doesn't matter in something they unwillingly became a participant in? That's why no one respects your opinion, or your graffiti.

I'm sure there's a fancy proverb for that but I don't need someone else to convey my thoughts for me.
Artist / May 10, 2010 at 10:57 pm
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Ok so I am a graffiti artist in the city of Toronto, over 25 and create both the vandalism in the city and also am the creator of high quality, high cost murals. I am only going to reply to some of the content that I remember reading. Banksy is far from what a graffiti artist is he is a stencil artist and created buzz with his creative political commentary. I have been doing graffiti for over 10 years and have never encountered "gang" graffiti in Canada. That statement is completely false. Real graffiti vandals have rules surprisingly, we do not vandalize religious establishments, peoples houses, peoples cars, and establishments of education. I am a taxpayer and hold a high paying job and no one would know that I do this from looking at me. Now I do agree that it is completely wrong for these mentioned above to be vandalized, 90% of these offenders are young kids who are not graffiti artists who get drunk and think it is funny and are not real graffiti artists. Graffiti is a form of expression and these recent news releases from Giorgio are ridiculous and he is trying to win the race by appealing to people who live in Vaughn and the outskirts of Toronto who I'm sure are doing far worse things than graffiti but are not bothered because of their connections and stature in the city. Having that said Toronto is extremely conservative and we need to wake up and smell the roses it is 2010. Take the pickle out of your a**es and stop trying to wreck normal peoples lives. I have painted with police officers, lawyers and many other talented vandals from around the world and this may shock you but yes graffiti artists are normal people who live normal lives who want to break out of this conformist lifestyle controlled by money. The 5000 dollar fine is not going to stop anything it will just fuel the anger. You cannot stop graffiti so stop trying to. Work with it. City commissioned murals are useless and look like complete amateur cr*p. You can never stop the fuel that keeps a graffiti artist burning. Work with us encourage the art and not for these little 13 year old kids who cant even draw a stick man but for the people who do make sacrifices to pursue this art form. Give the city more funding to help people create careers out of this art and not by working with the cops. Who the hell wants to work with the cops. I know I don't. Graffiti is a universal art form whether you like it or not. And as for the 5000 dollar fine if I vandalize a mailbox or something EPIC I will get the same fine. Really? I think I'll take ahhhh something EPIC please. Don't you people see that this will make graffiti worse in your city. Think rationally, Giorgio should not even have a seat in this race he is an extremist and shares a lot of qualities that someone in school history books did. I'm sure you can guess who I'm talking about.
rdk / May 10, 2010 at 11:39 pm
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I haven't much issue with graffiti when it is artistic but tagging needs to go. It's interchangeable redundant and boring. Taggers seem to not stick to the rules and are known to go after private property. It's not artistic and it all looks the same. Give me a Banksy any day over an overinflated ego who wants us to know he "wuz here!"
Godwin replying to a comment from Artist / May 11, 2010 at 10:21 am
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Mammoliti's ageism and anti-graffiti attitudes, even his anti-gay and budgetary views are hardly comparable to any extremist in school history books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
keven replying to a comment from Robert / May 11, 2010 at 01:19 pm
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No, Cree Indian means they are from the Cree Tribe. For example. I'm from the Saulteaux tribe. Calling me Cree would be insulting to me.
keven replying to a comment from Artist / May 11, 2010 at 01:24 pm
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"I have been doing graffiti for over 10 years and have never encountered "gang" graffiti in Canada."

If you've been anywhere in Manitoba or Saskatchewan you would never say that...
Mike W replying to a comment from Artist / May 11, 2010 at 03:09 pm
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I noticed you left out private businesses and public property from your rules. I guess you don't really care if the city/owner has to pay out of pocket to remove your work, or if the public at large just doesn't like it?

You clearly dislike the distasteful tagging of hoodlums that share in your art form but what in the city encourages "these little 13 year old kids who cant even draw a stick man" and not "legitimate" vandals?
How would you propose the city handle such a sensitive topic then? You've acknowledged kids tagging is a problem but how can we allow some people to draw on public property and private businesses without permission without letting others do the same? And who ultimately gets to make the distinction between art and vandalism?

I'm curious about the work you or other "artists" do though, if it's so worth keeping. Any examples?
It is a valid point that it can be seen as an art form, and I think the hype around Banksy highlights that. However I personally haven't seen anything of value in the city, and would actually like to be enlightened.
Vieve / May 11, 2010 at 09:30 pm
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Are you guys really griping about Toronto graffiti?
Have you BEEN to cities in the states? As far as I'm concerned you guys have it so good. Toronto for a city of its size is incredibly clean, well organized, pretty etc.
The graffiti here is minimal (i dont even think my whole neighbourhood has a single piece in it... let alone on peoples cars and garages?) and what is around is gorgeous.
Like people have said tags happen, cracking down only increases cred, but I would encourage you to look at the huge pieces in kensington or spadina and see how gorgeous they are. If anything I think the city should be putting more effort into redirecting those "misguided youth" by funding mural projects and the like (most graffiti artists from my experience will leave a muraled wall completely alone, because its already a piece of art)
Some universities and communities have designated places for people to get up that creates a legal way for people to express themselves, same idea as having a skate park.

fighting graffiti isn't going to do much if anything decrease the quality of what is out there.
Robert replying to a comment from keven / May 11, 2010 at 10:07 pm
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Thanks Keven, thanks for illustrating that you're not that bright.

The redundant part was "indian" not Cree, ie. when you say you are Cree, it also implies that you are native, indian, etc.

Thanks for the comment though.
keven replying to a comment from Robert / May 12, 2010 at 02:15 pm
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The redundancy is necessary as 99% of Canada wouldn't know what the word Saulteux is if it smacked them in the face. Adding the word "Indian" after it and omitting Saulteux isn't enough, it's too ambiguous, as in it gives it context. Cree is the same thing and while you may be fortunate enough to actually KNOW what cree is, the word on it's own isn't enough of a descriptor to convey what is being said, especially to people living outside of Ontario or Manitoba.

"Thanks Keven, thanks for illustrating that you're not that bright."

Thanks for making it personal... :P

BTW, your use of "thanks" is redundant in the case of your statement... You may want to check your own b/s before spewing it onto me.
Robert replying to a comment from keven / May 12, 2010 at 04:42 pm
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Second "thanks" wasn't redundant. I'm just really polite.
Captain Obvious / May 13, 2010 at 02:15 am
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^ stop feeding the troll.
keven replying to a comment from Robert / May 13, 2010 at 01:01 pm
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lol and I have a piece of land down in Florida that I can sell you, super cheap! :P Hypocrite.
Robert replying to a comment from keven / May 13, 2010 at 09:00 pm
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Thanks, but what exactly does you're comment mean? FYI, next time make sure your comment makes sense, or is at least relevant.

I'm not sure if it's similar to the "if you believe that, than I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you" kind of comment or a florida swamplands comment.

It just doesn't make sense, and then tagging it with a Hypocrite, not sure if you get this or not, but I'll try to fill you in, but the second "thanks" in my comment isn't redundant, it's called reiterating something for effect, for the sake of clarity and purpose. I'm sick of making comments here, but you keep writing ridiculous comments, and I just don't have the restraint.
keven replying to a comment from Robert / May 14, 2010 at 09:54 am
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holy redundancy! TL:DR. Get a life.
Robert / May 14, 2010 at 11:32 am
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I'll try to get back to my life, if you promise to spell your name correctly. Throw an "i" in there some place.
keven replying to a comment from Robert / May 14, 2010 at 12:29 pm
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You're making fun of the spelling of my name now Bob? Yea, you may want to get back to that so-called life of yours now. Douche.

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Keven
Derek / May 14, 2010 at 12:33 pm
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And with that, I now close the comments on this post. I just don't trust that Robert will get back to his life, and I'd hate to see him get fired for writing blogTO comments all day.

To those who responded thoughtfully and critically, thanks.
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