Tuesday, October 25, 2016Overcast 7°C

TTC Releases Suicide Statistics

Posted by Derek Flack / November 26, 2009

Toronto SubwayThe TTC has recently released statistics pertaining to suicides and suicide attempts involving Toronto subways. The information, which has long been kept confidential, was requested under the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

Although the mainstream media has previously resisted reporting on such incidents, this request was made by what the TTC refers to as "a local media outlet." Initially denied on account of fear that the publication of this information might lead to copy cat acts, the request was won on appeal and the Information and Privacy Commissioner ordered the information be made public.

In compliance with the order, the TTC has specifically released statistics that chart incidents of suicides and attempts between 1998-2007. Formerly the subject of much speculation and urban mythologizing, the numbers are sobering. On average, there has been a suicide attempt every two weeks over this period, with more than half of them successful.

TTC Suicide StatsThat's certainly more than I would have estimated, and I understand the desire to keep this information under wraps. Forgetting the fact that there is evidence to suggest that reporting of incidents of this nature can pose difficulties for those who are already at high-risk for an attempt on their lives, there's a compelling argument to be made that these statistics may incite fear in the average rider.

With this information now public, the TTC is thus taking steps to highlight the preventive measures that it takes in regard to suicide attempts. Over the past decade or so, the Commission has worked with St. Michael's Hospital and the Trillium Health Centre on a number of initiatives to help prevent suicide attempts on subway property. Most notable is the "Gatekeeper Program," in which employees are trained to identify those who are exhibiting high-risk behaviour and how to best interact with them should they encounter distressed individuals on or near platforms.

What's so unfortunate about situations of this nature, however, is that it's extremely difficult to bring trains to a halt with any haste, and there just aren't enough staff to monitor every passenger's behaviour for signs warning of a possible jump onto the tracks.

For those employees who suffer the misfortune of being involved in such incidents, the TTC also offers a number of counseling programs oriented around acute psychological trauma. With roughly 25 attempts a year, this is no doubt a serious problem for subway drivers.

So, despite this release of information, the TTC will maintain its current policy of not informing the media of suicide attempts when they occur.

The forced release of the statistics has spawned feverish debate, with some people lauding the Toronto Sun for doing the digging, others condemning the media for revealing the numbers, and others playing devil's advocate.

What's your take? Should these numbers have been kept from the public? Is the contagion effect a concern here? What do we now do with these numbers? Are barriers on platforms the next step?

Photo by sjgardiner, member of the blogTO Flickr pool.



Jonathan / November 26, 2009 at 03:52 pm
Interesting to see a clear downward trend, especially when you factor in the population change over that time period.
jack / November 26, 2009 at 03:54 pm
can't say it is good or bad unless you have a point of comparison, ie to other cities around the world..
meh / November 26, 2009 at 04:01 pm
I wonder how these stats compare to the number of people who jump off the Bloor Viaduct? People were so worried about those suicides that they built that terrible 'halo'.
Timothy C / November 26, 2009 at 04:02 pm
5andman / November 26, 2009 at 04:03 pm
The urban myth was that a suicide occurred several times a day.
Rajio / November 26, 2009 at 04:09 pm
Its worth noting that it was the TORONTO SUN which - as classy as ever - demanded this information be released.
Alex / November 26, 2009 at 04:19 pm
I imagine it would be stressful knowing that nearly twice a month someone would try killing themselves by jumping in-front of your vehicle
Jerrold / November 26, 2009 at 04:40 pm
If the TTC stats are accurate and those for the Bloor Viaduct are accurate on wikipedia (grain of salt, of course) more people jump in front of subway trains than jumped off the Bloor Viaduct. And the viaduct got a barrier in 2003. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Edward_Viaduct#A_magnet_for_suicide";>source</a>)
LizB / November 26, 2009 at 04:44 pm
I understand the thinking behind putting up barriers, but if these were there wouldn't it severely increase the people traffic and crowding that already happens when the train pulls up
Mark replying to a comment from LizB / November 26, 2009 at 05:21 pm
I don't think it would. The barriers wouldn't take away much platform space. Probably only the yellow line area that isn't supposed to be occupied until the train's in the station. And riders crowd around the doors as it is, no way around that other than adding more doors on the trains. The barrier doors would almost certainly be as wide as the vehicle doors.
Ryan L. / November 26, 2009 at 05:24 pm
In order for barriers to be erected, the subway has to be completely automated (a megalithic task). It'd be near impossible for the driver to consistantly stop on a dime every single time.
rick mcginnis / November 26, 2009 at 05:24 pm
Why the big spike in 1999, I wonder? Any thoughts?
Brooks / November 26, 2009 at 05:26 pm
While I believe that barriers would help reduce the problem, I don't think it would stop the problem completely. Addressing the mental anguish of potential jumpers might be the best answer. The TTC could set up phones at each stop that directly connect to a mental health hotline. Or they could make educational materials for depression victims readily available at each platform.

Just some thoughts.
thatguy replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / November 26, 2009 at 05:31 pm
Simple in 1999 wikipedia lists this as a major vent.
May 19 – Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace is released in theaters. It becomes the highest grossing Star Wars film.

With proper research my educated guess is that we would find that the link between the people is that they were Star Wars fanbois.

If you don't make fun of suicide you are more likely to commit it.
rick mcginnis replying to a comment from thatguy / November 26, 2009 at 05:34 pm
Plausible theory, thatguy.
Parkdalian / November 26, 2009 at 05:42 pm
First they tell us ticket prices are going up and now they're giving us "suicide" statistics??!!

Way to rub it in on us Mr. Double T to the C.
C.W replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / November 26, 2009 at 05:45 pm
Y2k!! :p
joe / November 26, 2009 at 06:07 pm
how come there's more suicides than suicide attempts? people commit suicides unintentionally?
ryan l. replying to a comment from joe / November 26, 2009 at 06:14 pm
I'm assuming they mean unsuccessful attempts
Elizabeth replying to a comment from Brooks / November 26, 2009 at 06:17 pm
I was thinking the same thing. Phones, signs, phone numbers etc., similar to the ones on the Bloor Viaduct. Weird they haven't thought of it already!
Elizabeth / November 26, 2009 at 06:19 pm
Also, if you've taken the subway metro in other major cities around the world - Montreal, New York, London, Paris - you know that none of them has barriers. It's just not a feasible idea.

I feel for the ttc subway drivers...
ryan l. / November 26, 2009 at 06:21 pm
Perhaps these numbers are a good thing to release if some important things are pointed out: While you might have something like sixty percent chance at being successful, you have a forty or so percent chance of being a hell of a lot worse off than you were before. (And I'm sure many of that sixty percent didn't die quickly or pleasantly)

Doesn't sound like such a good idea now does it?
Eric26 replying to a comment from Elizabeth / November 26, 2009 at 06:30 pm
Parts of the Paris Metro have suicide barriers.
lily / November 26, 2009 at 06:30 pm
the shanghai subway has glass barriers with the doors matching up to the subway doors. they only open when the subway has completely stopped. it works perfectly... but i do agree that it's more important to take preventive measures; suicidal people will just find another way
Yeq replying to a comment from joe / November 26, 2009 at 06:41 pm
Its easy, if you try to kill yourself and fail, it counts as an attempt but if you commit suicide, it counts as a full suicide. That's where there's more than attempts.
andrewS / November 26, 2009 at 06:45 pm
Let's think about these numbers a little bit.

(back of the envelope:) there are around 100 trains in service on the system at any given time. 2 operators per train, 3 shifts. 600-800 subway operators?

With 25 suicides a year, that's roughly a 3% chance of seeing an attempt. Every year. Over the course of a 30 year career (+/- 750, depending on long term trends), that means that more likely than not an operator will witness a suicide attempt. Witnessing 2 or 3 over that span would not be uncommon.

This might be one of, perhaps the primary reason, for "modified duty" that many collectors are on.
meh / November 26, 2009 at 06:48 pm
Interesting that The TTC released as few stats as they could get away with. There are other numbers that could be relevant - what stations have the most attempts? What times of day are most common? From where do people jump - middle, or end of the platform? These stats can be used to develop strategies that aren't as expensive as a full barrier system - if a few stations have the majority of the attempts, then perhaps help phones etc could be located there.

But don't know these stats. The TTC does though.
Jay / November 26, 2009 at 06:53 pm
Toyko's been playing around with installing blue lighting to try and stem the suicides there. There isn't any proof of it working yet but they think by providing a calming experience, more people might rethink. Perhaps we can just pump some waterfall sounds into the subways.
nihil replying to a comment from joe / November 26, 2009 at 06:59 pm
people are not as proficient at suicide as they were before.
sicko / November 26, 2009 at 07:15 pm
i must be sick because my first thought was that i want to know what stations...
Elizabeth replying to a comment from Eric26 / November 26, 2009 at 07:36 pm
Interesting about Shanghai, and I've never seen them in Paris, although I guess I haven't been to that many stations!

I also wonder about numbers of people pushed onto the tracks. I remember that happening a few times years ago by people with mental illness. I used to stand back from the tracks just in case! I guess those stories DO make the news. Still, wouldn't mind seeing those numbers as well.
Realist (mostly) / November 26, 2009 at 07:56 pm
I know the St. Petersburg subway has them on at least some stations. Apparently they're more common than I would have thought.

cocoa / November 26, 2009 at 08:13 pm
I'm glad the TTC provided that additional information, about why they didn't want to release the stats.

Remember, each of those numbers is a person...I remember reading about a woman who jumped in front of a train along with her kid(s?) a few years ago...sometimes this city feels very vast.
Corina / November 26, 2009 at 09:05 pm
Wayyy way less than I expected, esp given the general rates among the public.
Corina replying to a comment from Elizabeth / November 26, 2009 at 09:07 pm
Hong Kong has barriers in some places and they are perfectly feasible... just not with the crap shoot we call transit in Toronto.

However, I don't think barriers are the way to prevent suicide. Expanding social services and in particular mental health services would do a great deal more to help than nets/barriers.
Riley replying to a comment from lily / November 26, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Interestingly, suicidal people don't actually find another way. Statistics from other parts of the world (particularly the UK) indicate that when access to large amounts of Tylenol were prohibited (retailers could only sell it in small, non-lethal quantities) the number of suicides by Tylenol overdose AND the total number of suicides decreased, indicating that people didn't just move on to another method. Keep in mind people considering suicide are often suffering from a mental illness, which may also impair the ability to consider alternative methods.
Mark Dowling / November 26, 2009 at 11:29 pm
There's a qualitative difference between reporting suicides individually and in aggregate. The TTC may have good intentions in their denial of access but we all know a lot of the time they as a body are just not wired to be open with the public.

Attempts at suicide are only part of the incursions to track level. The Spadina Extension should be built ready for platfrom doors from 2016 when the new signalling is commissioned, with the rest of the system retrofitted over time.
Darcy McGee replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / November 27, 2009 at 01:42 am
That's the year I left Toronto producing -- no doubt -- an vast increase in the general malaise of all those who miss me.
Sean / November 27, 2009 at 05:12 am
Nobody dies when the TTC goes on strike!
me / November 27, 2009 at 06:33 am
about 25 yrs ago I had a ttc driver tell me there were about 4 suicides a week
I had just moved to toronto and obviously he was just trying to shock me
mikeb replying to a comment from Rajio / November 27, 2009 at 10:15 am
Some may want to look down on the Sun for asking for these stats, but it has generated discussion. It also puts to rest the myth of a high amount of suicide attempts occuring on the TTC. Everyone I've talked to over the years believed it was a lot higher.

Plus I see that every other news reporting institution, even the sanctimonious, has picked it up.
catherine / November 27, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I think we're analyzing the TTC suicide issue too late, at the end of the line. These social problems go very deep and could be dealt with before it comes to someone jumping out in front of a moving vehicle. This city (province, country, etc.) does very little to support people with mental health issues and disabilities. They are considered outcasts in our society who most people rarely interact with in their lifetime. The Ontario disability allowance is only a few hundred dollars, they're living off the poverty line. Navigating that system is nightmare. Not to mention, the people who can't help themselves, can no longer be institutionalized for care - thanks to groups who fought against that practice with their own self-interests. That's why you see more people with mental health issues wandering the streets of Toronto in recent years.
Alex / November 27, 2009 at 12:03 pm
It's about time they released the information, goes along with the whole now open data idea.

In London UK they much more blunt, heard an announcement last summer while visiting, "delay on line due to death".
lisa / November 27, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I have heard that most of the suicides are at Ossington - and heard from a couple of retired cops in that area. Their theory was that people who were being discharged from the Queen Street Mental Health Centre would just hop on a bus north. A sobering thought for sure.
Jennifer / November 27, 2009 at 01:30 pm
I always figured it was about one a month. My father saw a man jump about 40 years ago...he said the man stood quietly at the top of the platform near the tunnel entrance (trains are at their fastest there) and just stepped out. No noise, no sound, just gone. My mother, an ER nurse, took care of another jumper who survived, but had to have both legs amputated. NOT a good way to go....
charles marker / November 27, 2009 at 02:38 pm
15 - 20 years ago, a subway driver told me that there were about two suicide attempts per month. That seems to be the average still in the last 10 years.
mahchevoi replying to a comment from Elizabeth / November 27, 2009 at 04:34 pm
It is possible - visit Singapore and you'll see a perfectly functioning barrier subway system - very effective and not a huge commuter issue.
Crashboy replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / November 28, 2009 at 03:14 pm
Why the spike in '99 and '00? Dot.com crash.
Sojourn / November 28, 2009 at 03:21 pm
While I commend cities such as Singapore who have barriers in place, for Toronto at this time they would be cost prohibitive.

Even though I'm not a subway operator I've witnessed 6 suicides on the subway since 1953.
The shock and trauma is no less when witnessing these events than for the operators involved.
I still have nightmares about one which I believe was accidental.

For many years I could not ride the subway I was so traumatized I needed psychological counseling in order to work through the Post Traumatic Stress.

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer, people who are so troubled and depressed that they have made the choice to end their lives, will find a way, whether it be by jumping in front of a subway train or by another method.
ckj replying to a comment from sicko / November 29, 2009 at 08:08 am
I know Royal York is one of them.
pmbpro / November 29, 2009 at 09:21 am
In March of 1997, at Spadina Subway station (Eastbound), I witnessed a young man jump in front of a train. Just like Jennifer said her dad did. He was only about 19 or so, walked past me and a letter carrier (he was only less than 10 feet away from us). He was waiting just like the rest of us. No sign of distress whatsoever. He stood right at the top of the platform where the train enters and as we all looked to see the train come in... they guy just went. No scream, no sound, nothing. I saw his body get struck and go under... The train screeched like crazy and all the power went right off. The mail carrier and I were staring at each other, stunned, and sagged against the wall. Couldn't even move after that. I saw a few of the passengers on that train start to panic due to the expressions on our faces. It's awful, awful thing to witness. I'm still haunted by it today, so I can't even begin to imagine how it must have been for the train operators...even *with* pre-employment and post-incident counselling. :-(
Dave / November 29, 2009 at 01:23 pm
The barrier debate has come up many times and there is a lot of information on the net about it.

Obvious problems are cost and installation but there are many other factors involved. Just one additional reason is the station & tunnel ventalation is designed around trains moving air between stations and solid barriers would prevent or limit that.

If you have ever been on a platform during a minor garbage fire when trains were stopped, you see how fast the stations fill with smoke and how well they clear once the trains restart.

The TTC has suggested barriers may be considered and installed as new stations are built or re-designed (such as union) as the cost is far less when included in the station design and not retro-fitted.
Rob M replying to a comment from meh / November 30, 2009 at 09:54 am
Interesting point Meh. Given the multitude of other improvements the TTC lacks any funding for, installing barriers to prevent suicides would seem like a tough sell, especially since it would remain a minor deterrent despite being incredibly expensive. With the right information, increasing funding to TTC security (i.e. more TTC constables) at problem stations during problem hours may help to reduce these numbers while also contributing to reducing problems like violence towards TTC Operators or riders, and even fare evasion. The point is that in either case, more information may allow for a cheaper, more comprehensive solution that would deal with not only one problem but several in concert.

Rob M / November 30, 2009 at 10:01 am
When someone commits suicide on the London subway system and service is delayed, riders are informed immediately. I had a friend move to London recently and she told me that she was horrified one day when subway service was halted due to "Man Under Train", announced as matter-of-factly as if it was due to a power outage. Funny how that's the case there while here a debate ensues when a newspaper forces the TTC to release these numbers after the fact. I'm still not sure which I'd prefer...

On the one hand I feel like I'd want to know the real reasons for why the TTC is making me late, because if I knew it was a suicide it might make my reason for being in such a rush seem trivial and introduce a little perspective when it forces me to reflect on what is really imporant. On the other hand, it seems to happen so often (every 2 weeks) that perhaps it might have the opposite effect of desensitizing people and making them cynical; the last thing I'd want is to find myself reacting to a suicide notice with impatience and disdain (i.e. "Of course he had to commit suicide when I'm late for my important job interview...")
Lorne / December 3, 2009 at 12:49 am
When a wall is erected to prevent people from falling, being pushed or jumping onto the tracks, then the wall will have saved the day. The wall, with a set of doors that open only when the subway cars' doors open is being contemplated.
yumiko / March 12, 2010 at 05:19 pm
In China...there are barrier doors on each platform and they are perfectly feasible...I so recommend to use barrier doors to prevent suicide incidents...
Mary / August 3, 2010 at 07:57 am
When the issues are child abuse, sexual assault, addiction, safe sex, breast cancer and so on (there are many examples) we have taken the stance of education is the best preventative. You can see images of rotten gums on cigarette packages so that people will think twice and not 'copy cat'. Why the secrecy on TTC suicides? Why not talk about mental health more openly.
I feel that putting up barriers is a mute point. If someone wants to kill themselves, they will find a way to do it. Money is better spent on education and support.
Melissa replying to a comment from joe / January 21, 2011 at 06:22 pm
@Joe - No, the suicide attempts were unsuccessful, the suicides were completed. It doesn't mean that people were not intending to commit suicide, it's just that not everyone dies in their attempts, even when they're doing something as violent as stepping in front of a subway car.
Melissa replying to a comment from Mary / January 21, 2011 at 06:28 pm
I agree that if someone really wants to commit suicide, they will probably find another way to do it. Still, I think that there is a point for barriers in addition to education and support: If someone is prevented from attempting in one place because of barriers, then it might give them a bit more time to get out of their depression or to seek/find the help of another person.

I agree with you that the secrecy of TTC and other subway system suicides is counterproductive. I think the main problem, though, is that it still really is a taboo subject. I've written about the subject myself on my site - in relation to books about teens who have attempted or completed suicide, and found that some readers stopped following me afterward. I think they were offended or upset by the subject, but I for one would rather discuss it and help prevent it.
Melissa replying to a comment from yumiko / January 21, 2011 at 06:29 pm
Yes, they have them in Korea as well.
quirkygeekgirl / February 18, 2011 at 09:52 pm
I wonder if there was a spike between Fall 2008 and now?
Patrick / June 10, 2011 at 11:32 am
There is another practical reason to place barrier doors and walls between the train tacks and the platform:

Air conditioning and heating are much more efficient when you seal off the station from the tunnels. Air contamination would be reduced as well with much less dust from the tunnels being blown into the station.
Jan F replying to a comment from rick mcginnis / June 15, 2011 at 09:48 pm
My guess about the 1999 spike is the Y2K scare. I'm sure some in the financial sector made up some of the "victims".
pmbpro / June 15, 2011 at 10:30 pm
I first wrote about the suicide jump I saw in 1997 on the subway tracks. Well, I saw another "jump" back last early December. This time I was *on* the train in the front car looking out the window. It happened in a flash as the train pulled into Sherbourne, westbound, during morning rush-hour. It was a woman this time. This recent event triggered flashbacks the first one I saw all over again. Something must be done!!
jeff / January 6, 2012 at 04:00 pm
So yesterday,(jan 5 2012) the ttc was all jammed up for a while and the reason given by the streetcar driver and also by lots of people getting on the streetcar was that there was a DOUBLE suicide at union station. However, today (jan 6 2012)
I cant find mention of it anywhere but I am finding a lot of news about how the ttc is now releasing their suicide statistics and that they are gonna go ahead with suicide barriers at the stations. What gives? Anybody?
Mike / January 13, 2012 at 12:27 pm
I understand that many many years ago, subway suicides were reported on tv, radio and newspaper media. The TTC in its wisdom met with the media and requested a trial period in which such incidents would not be reported. It was found that the number of subway suicides dropped dramatically. Since then, the media had withheld such reports to avoid "copycat" suicides that plagued the system. Kudos to the TTC, its security officers, police and EMS and to the media.
Samantha / April 4, 2012 at 03:55 pm
My brother in law sits in a booth now for the TTC subway however worked the trains years ago. Just lastnight I was talking to him. I didnt hear mention of a double suicide however he confirmed that one person was definatley hit, decapitated. Body was found and last I had heard, they were still looking for the head. It was near Pape/Keele. Thats all I know.
Samantha / April 4, 2012 at 04:46 pm
Oops, just noticed that you posted in January. proof that this occurs alot and that it is a REAL problem. Really sad that someone is so troubled that they would take their life in such a violent way. Just one month ago, in Kitchener, the highway was shut down for several hours after a mother took her life by stepping into oncomming traffic. It must have been so horrible for her family and kids. There needs to be more outlets for people with depression. I volunteer on a board for a distress centre and part of my job is brainstorming ways to create awareness so people know they are not alone. Not to mention what it does to the people affected by this total stranger stepping out in front of their car or train or whatever..... :(
Tom / April 12, 2012 at 08:36 pm
Being a retired subway operator I had two suicides and several attempts.There seems to be a victim here and most people do not know or care.The victims are the people who witness it and the operator.The person who jumped in front of the train so it seems to me is the victim as told by a vast number of people on this board.A barrier is not the answer and if you want a barrier well all the trains have to be automated and believe me the politicians would love that except they do not have to pay for it.
stan / June 10, 2012 at 09:55 pm
Given this copy cat suicide businees, I was surprised when I saw a poster in TTC "thinking about suicide?" along with some help number. Thinking about suicide? I wasn't, until I saw this poster that is. Jeez
sage replying to a comment from Elizabeth / December 14, 2012 at 08:59 pm
Hong Kong has them, and they're wonderful. I don't think it's possible to commit suicide with them at all. And they keep the tracks clean of garbage, so no rats and no smell.
Me / December 14, 2012 at 09:05 pm
BOOFUCKINGHOO! Who gives a shit? Though it would be nice if the suicidal losers that actually go through with it could be just a LITTLE more considerate of those that have to clean up after they end their useless pathetic lives.
moriyah / June 25, 2013 at 06:18 pm
I lay ALL of these suicides, and ALL future Toronto suicides whether TTC related or not, at the feet of the Landlord Tenant Board and their eviction epidemic of those in poor mental health. Hey, got a contrary opinon? Discuss it with the next beggar you see. I did and do. Tenants, stand up for your rights and those of others in your environment. Hold the Landlords, Banks, Government and Churches to accountability.
SimonsMom replying to a comment from moriyah / June 25, 2013 at 09:42 pm
Tenants have too many rights as it is. Ever try to evict some deadbeat for non-payment of rent?
Brian Richmond / November 27, 2013 at 12:02 pm
A dear friend, Laura LaCharite, committed suicide on February 25 1971 in the St. Patrick subway station by jumping in front of a subway as it entered the station. During the rapid decline in her mental health I tried to help her in various ways but was unsuccessful. When I think of her I can still see her clearly and feel the sadness of the loss of her. She was my friend and I miss her dearly.
matt / May 12, 2014 at 04:37 pm
They didn't release it cause they don't want to pay for gates in order to prevent people from jumping the tracks, city's like Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo, have gates that line up with the platform which prevent people from jumping, but hey, that's money the ttc doesn't wanna spend, 22 deaths a year, is worth not spending the money for gates.
z / August 8, 2014 at 06:01 pm
i wish this jumpers would be more considerate of the other people whose life--the life they choose to continue to live--they interrupt.
You are making us late.Be kind and considerate, thank you!
Hui Shifflett / November 26, 2014 at 10:04 am
My spouse and I stumbled over here coming
from a different web page and thought I might as well check things out.
I like what I see so i am just following you. Look forward to checking out your web
page repeatedly.
Brian Richmond replying to a comment from z / July 6, 2015 at 06:35 am
z,the people who jump in front of a subway train are in a desperate state, only thinking that's the only way to deal with their problems, not thinking about their suicide as an inconvenience to others. The ending of their life is a tragedy and should consider what your remarks in that context.
Other Cities: Montreal