The Toronto "Drop Fees" Rally Sends Multiple Messages
Organized by the Canadian Federation of Students Ontario, this year's iteration of the province-wide campaign stressed the need for the government to lower tuition fees and provide affordable education on account of the fact that high tuition fees contribute to poverty in Ontario.
The jury's still out, however, on whether this was the most effective plan of attack.
Before this year's event even began, it was met with criticism for closely linking university tuition with poverty and its diluted message in general.
Nevertheless, the placards and banners drove home the student belief that high tuition is causative of poverty in Ontario, and the chants I heard further cemented the linking of these two issues: "What do we want? Drop fees! What do we need? End poverty!"
Other chants also raised the issues of provincial healthcare, childcare, housing, gender equity, racial equity, and international students' rights, all of which were linked to high university tuition.
Participating schools included Ryerson University, the University of Toronto, George Brown, OCAD, and York University. At the Ryerson Student Centre pre-rally street party, several student speakers were called upon to stand atop the balloon-covered bandwagon, including an international student and a student advocating women's rights in the workforce.
"More opportunities for people with colour!" shouted one of the speakers on the bandwagon.
"For every dollar a working Canadian man makes, a woman makes 70 cents!" shouted another.
The Ryerson party was joined by U of T Scarborough before parading up Yonge to College. A DJ on the bandwagon mixed dance music that blared from mounted speakers as participants chanted and motorists looked on with interest and mild annoyance.
The parade was not solely composed of university students -- I spotted young children and their parents in the thick of it all. At College St., the parade turned west and marched past Queen's Park to King's College Circle, where it convened with the feeder marches from other schools.
As schools pooled together in front of Convocation Hall, the weather seemed to reflect the mishmash of voices and ideas: the optimistic afternoon sun turned to sleet within minutes, before slowly turning back to sun again.
Multiple societies and unions appeared with banners to protest and piggyback on the rally's strength of numbers. The chants heard on the lawn were all over the map in terms of topics. The "Drop Fees" participants' main cry was for a new post-secondary education system with increased government funding -- that much was crystal clear. But the cheers linking high tuition to poverty, as well as the slew of other issues that were raised, may or may not have made for a muddled campaign.
Time for the jury to weigh in. Was the implementation of this year's Drop Fees rally effective? Or could it have benefited from a more focused message?
Comments (59)
Even if protests have a unified message, they still tend to come off as white noise when people get accustomed to the usual weekly protest.
The poverty angle is silly though. Going to university puts people into poverty? Well, I don't doubt that it's true, but instead of complaining that you can't get a job after shelling out thousands for tuition, maybe your first step is to drop your major in Philosophy and take something a little more practical.
Yes, tuition is too expensive, but the only people I know who have had trouble paying off their student loans after school were those who majored in things like sociology, anthropology, and basically any BA. And most of them weren't really surprised when their degree didn't help them land a job at all.
I walked by the UofT "rally" outside of a building on St. George. They were blasting "Live Your Life" by Rihanna and dancing around. Kind of ironic..
walking by bloor and spadina, quite a few drop fees placards were strewed around the street.
perhaps the protestors should have cleaned up after themselves.
on the subject of dropping fees: the only way that schools are going to do that are if they receive more transfer $$$ from governments. unfortunately, in the case of ontario, no one's going to get any more money any time soon. are the protestors willing to see a tax hike (a tax hike they will have to burden after they graduate) to see this drop in fees?
I agree totally...although it is a wonderful thing to have an educated society, that doesn't mean that the means towards funding discertations in medieval woman's basket weaving should be made easier . Somewhere along the line the definition of practicle became blurry, and an entitled and growing wannabe academic population began seeing value where none really exists, hobby and personal interest started to be promoted as being valuable and worth teaching, which is brilliant marketing on behalf of universities..... and i also find the race card argument ridiculous....look around, Toronto bends over for every cause and racial protest and interest group imaginable.
I am a UofT student, and I did not support this protest. It's very easy to just say "drop fees" and think that will solve everything. While I certainly don't want to see fees increase, the problem is not the cost of university but a) the student loan system and b) the way the money is distributed. The government needs to get back in the business of students loans, allowing students to pay them back with little or no interest and in a reasonable amount of time, without impoverishing the student. As well, we need to look at how universities distribute their money and see how many black holes there are that suck up money. But of course the root of the problem goes so far back that it is doubtful anything will change.
As a recent grad school graduate, I find the whole "tuition is too high" argument a hollow one. Undergrad education in Canada is relatively cheap, especially in comparison to the U.S.
GlobeCampus: http://www.globecampus.ca/in-the-news/globecampusreport/editors-note-canadas-universities-are-a-bargain/
I think a bigger issue is credential creep & students going into university with no plans or goals (or the maturity to handle it). College & applied trades would better serve a lot of people.
I think we need to give these students more homework. so they don't have time to put together these pointless demonstration and waste peoples time.
why doesn't CFS take they money they make from student unions and help subsidize tuition?
We ought to have no tuition fees at all; and though I didn't attend the protest, I would protest in favour raising taxes on, for example, automobiles, gasoline, and congestion.
When I did an exchange year at the University of Bergen, Norway, I marveled at the cultural differences. No one, not even me (the complete foreigner, not even technically on an exchange) paid tuition fees.
How do they offset the massive cost of that? In a city of 300 000 it cost $6 just to drive into the core. Driver licensing in Norway begins at 18 and costs about $2000. Despite abundant oil, gasoline is over $2/L. Speeding fines (heavily enforced) are minimum $300. My friends there are aware of the transatlantic difference and gawk at how it is so cheap to drive in North America, just as everyone here stares at me in disbelief when I tell them there is no word for "tuition" in Norwegian.
The government has a loan program to cover living costs for all students, 40% of which is converted to a stipend if you pass all your exams, so there is a very strong incentive not to bum around.
Norway is a dispersed and still heavily car-dependent society, but they value investment in post-secondary education far more heavily. It's a tradeoff I'd be more than willing to make here too, unlikely as it is to happen.
I find it laughable that so many commentors on this blog seem to have this condescending attitude to students getting actively engaged and involved in political issues that effect them. Had any of those who wrote the above snyde remarks actually attended the rally, they'd know that the point of it was not to say that going to university makes you poor, but that access to affordable public education is one step in alleviating social inequity and reducing poverty in Ontario.
Secondly it is not student debt that necessarily makes an individual poor per se, but rather the fact that we have the highest youth unemployment rates since the 1970's; students leave school with $30 000 worth of debt and no job prospects with which to repay that debt. A generation laden with debt is a generation that won't make investments, take risks, or buy a house or a car. It only takes a basic understanding of rudimentary economics to know that when there is no risk taking, no investment, and less consumption on average, thats what leads to recessions and economic meltdowns.
Finally, in regards to comment about how we're getting a "bargain" in comparison to the US-technically we are, but we don't live in the US and its not our job to clean up their back yard. Its our job to clean up ours. And comparisons like that are flacid anyways, cause really, in comparison to Ireland, Denmark, Libya, Cuba, Brazil, France, Australia, Finland, Sweden, Newfoundland and Quebec (to name a few), Ontario looks like a Yorkville boutique.
So I commend students who take action, cause thats what a democracy is all about.
As someone who graduated 3 years ago, I bet most of the people here don't fully understand the system but the slogan is self-serving so why not chant it? The problem is our loan system, but the problem is the gov't gave the system to the banks with a full backing. Much like the housing bubble in the US the banks can give as much credit they want out knowing if the students default (around 10% do) the government will pick up the slack (plus all the extra fees and late penalties associated with the defaulting). Where does the government find the money for this? Well it subsidizes Canadians to goto University (that's why there's a difference between the tuition of local vs. international students). The Gov't will end up subsidizing the students less, causing the tuition rates to go up in the student's eyes.
I sympathize with the students. It seems like a bunch of commenters think the students are only protesting about the mountains of debt their left with AFTER they finish University - that's only part of the problem.
I finished Engineering at Mac. My tuition was 8k per year. I paid 2k on books. Lived in an absolute sh*t hole with mice in the walls and ate horrible food to just get by. I had to max out on OSAP every year, plead for a yearly bursary, work 20 hours a week AND get $500 a month from my parents JUST to make ends meet.
Now if I didn't have that extra $500 per month, I would have been toast. I don't know how I could have made ends meet.
Then I see McMaster getting sponsorships from Coke and other corporations, raising tuition yearly, charging fees for building I'll never see, etc., etc., etc.
I sympathize with the students cause Universities are MONEY making corporations.
Would students rather have cheaper fees or better schools?
If we increase tuition to the schools and increase student aid from the government for students who could not afford them then we'd be fine.
To add to it, create a program to forgive all student loan fees if students work in civil service, the military, or approved non-profits for 2 years after graduating. We'll get better schools with more funding, students will get work experience, and students will pay off their debts while benefitting society.
I'm a York student and in my opinion this campaign is useless. Now in my last year, I've seen my tuition money being thrown at the creation of this campaign year after year however nothing new has happened. My tuition fees have gone up steadily from year 1. With everything that is going on in our economic situation, there is no way the government is going to do anything about lowering tuition fees. It hasn't heard the student body until now, who says anything is going to change?!
I think it's time for my student government to put my money to a campaign that is of much more use to the student body. Safer campus, more library space, better student club offices? Ask the administration to spend our precious tuition dollars on extra security cameras instead of big flat screen TVs in the hallways?! We know there's a fire alarm (again!) we know where to go. Sadly our government has a mind of its own, not one that necessarily reflects our desires, so until the YFS represents us, they will continue getting salaries and wasting our tuition money on useless things.
Another thought..
Call me elitist or whatever you want, but if the current value of an undergrad degree is very little already and there's not much we can do without going on to graduate studies, imagine how little it will be worth if everyone is able to get a university degree. Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world and we need to pay for our education and to get ahead. Where there is a will, there is a way and it's up to you to find it.
There are a lot of ignorant comments on this feed about attitudes towards the social sciences. Our society wouldn't function as a thinking, self-reflexive body if we only created mathematicians, physicists and other 'practical' things- the researchers that the social sciences and humanities create are very important.
Not only that- but it isn't just philosophy majors who can't get work, and we're going to be seeing a lot more people with 'practical' degrees flipping burgers in the near future.
This generation is getting the short end of the stick; our parents did not have to pay anywhere near this amount (inflation included) for their education, and they didn't need as much of it to get good, stable jobs.
Lower tuition and end poverty. More low-income people are seeing post-secondary education slip out of their reach because of soaring tuition fees, and they remain the working poor and the unemployed. A well educated (including social sciences and humanities) society is a productive and healthy one. Help reduce poverty by investing education, and not creating a generation of young workers that are so burdened with debt that they can't afford to pass up an income even if it has nothing to do with their field. Debt turns us into a generation of submissive workers rather than thinkers who are going to challenge the status quo.
It's pathetic how quickly everyone shoots down the people who have the courage to get off the couch and make a fuss over something that matters. Shame.
I have 3 degrees and working on a fourth -- a bachelor's, a law degree, a master's of law , working now on my phd and of course a significant amount of debt... and yet, I'm not really in favour of this campaign, despite the personal benefits it would accrue to me or others in my situation.
Approx 30% of Canadians receive a university degree at some point in their life, and receive the employment benefits of that throughout their lifetime. Students need to having a compelling explanation as to why the 70% of Canadians who do not ever attend a university ought to subsidize the tuition fees of those who do, when they do not receive any of the benefits. If the govt cuts tuition fees they have to do so either through raising taxes or cutting spending in other areas -- both options put costs on non-university educated folks in order to benefit those who attend a university.
Despite all the rhetoric from the protesters about equity and equality, what they are really asking for is the exact opposite -- privileged treatment for an already privileged group.
The answer is not to cut fees (at least not if we hope to retain quality universities and quality graduates), but rather to make interest-free grants more easily available to all students, and to increase scholarships for those from extremely poor backgrounds.
A bunch of middle-class kids chanting that they want to pay less so that they can have more money to spend on tv's and houses after the graduate under the guise of "reducing poverty" is sickening.
A couple of comments from someone (me!) with a BA, MA, and a PhD:
1) one cannot judge a university degree simply in terms of job prospects; if the university simply becomes a job training facility, it would not produce "outside the box" thinking. It would simply train you for already-held conceptions/knowledge/etc. Then the people who do have the training to think outside the box would be the "privileged class" and the rest would just follow along.
2) all academic pursuits are worthwhile; I know the "basketweaving" joke always comes up like a well-worn cliche. But even the study of obscure things has value because the citizen is engaging in learning (a noble pursuit). As well, you never know how your work will be taken up by others, often generations down the line. In my own very broad and accessible dissertation, I referenced small, obscure studies from decades ago from outside fields of study. Taken together, these studies presented a really interesting body of work that I could pull together to explain a key issue in Canadian society.
3) The big problem these days is not just higher tuition but the way the academic funding pie is being divided. Yes, students are paying more. But they are also getting less quality education. They are seeing much larger classes than in my undergrad days. They have less contact with professors. Facilities are often overloaded. Their professors are increasingly part-timers who are overworked and not doing research anymore (the whole point of having profs teach courses is that they are research experts in their field... without the time to do research they are not on the cutting edge).
4) university does create a "privileged" class, but studies show the higher the level of education in a country, the higher the standard of living. If we simply discouraged people from going to higher education because of the incorrect assumption it provides benefits mostly to those who participate and nobody else, society would be worse off for it. Nobody tells their child, after all, not to attend school ;)
Yawn. Students bitching about the cost. Way back 20+years ago when wasting away for 4 years at a university out west I remember the moaning and groaning about how "unfair" the cost of tuition etc was. Students march, bitch and complain, then retire to the pub for a few pints.
Nothing to see here, move along.
I agree with John over Hendrix. He is working on a fourth degree and Hendrix only has three so John must be right.
wow, it really seems to hurt people when others have an opinion. i will keep doing this until i can afford to go to school and eat.
The article mentions the "issues of provincial healthcare, childcare, housing, gender equity, racial equity, and international students' rights, all of which were linked to high university tuition."
If these people are protesting these "problems" at least school is teaching them something. Welcome to the realk world kids, just wait till you get your fancy diploma, then the world will really kick your ass.
Drop fees:Gender equity, how the hell are they related? $1:$0.70 come on, this is older than old, just take your bra off and burn it would you! If the 1:.70 is as true as you say it is, come to work with me tomorrow, you can carry my tools and do the heavy lifing for the day, the you will see why I get more than a woman sitting at a desk.
I found a pin on the floor of a bus a few months ago, it said something along the lines of "Free health care for foreign students" I was disgusted and threw the pin to the floor. Why should someone come here and get free health care? Why would we welcome people here for free health care. If we do that, then there is no money for education so make up your tiny minds.
Our education has a cost and someone has to pay it. Ideally, the government would step in with a lot more funding, but I don't think anyone really believes that is particularly likely. Instead, lower fees mean spending cuts in other areas, and usually the victim is the schools' bursary programs.
Given this trade-off between bursaries and tuition cuts, linking tuition fees to poverty is completely backward. If lower tuition means reduced bursaries, this essentially means that the upper and middle class students who can afford university are getting a break at the cost of the students from lower income families who really need the help.
As it stands right now, the privileged Canadian children who get to have a university education are being subsidized by everyone else. Someone who can't go to university for financial reasons and is forced to get a job instead ends up paying taxes to subsidize the children of the wealthy.
Even if tuition were reduced to zero, university would still primarily be for the wealthy. Lower income students don't do as well in high school, for a range of economic and social reasons, so they're usually not the top university applicants. For those who do have the marks, the need to support themselves can make getting a job a greater priority than getting an education.
If we really want to help lower income Canadians to get a good education, we need to focus money directly on solving their problems. We need bursaries for lower income students instead of tuition cuts for all student. We also need to improve public schools in lower income neighbourhoods to help level the playing field.
Wow you are ridiculously ignorant.
Look up Canadian Legislation and try to find the term Pay Equity.
Pay Equity: Equal pay for equal work amongst men and women.
Male nurses get paid more than female nurses.
Grow some brain cells and stop being a douche bag.
come to work with me tomorrow, you can carry my tools and do the heavy lifing for the day, the you will see why I get more than a woman sitting at a desk.
Yeah, women are really missing out on the highly-compensated "heavy lifting" sector.
Here are some of the more memorable quotes.
"What do we want? Drop fees! What do we need? End poverty!"
"More opportunities for people with color!" shouted one of the speakers on the bandwagon.
"For every dollar a working Canadian man makes, a woman makes 70 cents!" shouted another.
" It's my future it's my right " read one banner.
You never expect to see such depth or keen insight at an event like this.
What exactly constitutes " people with color? " I was wearing a red hat today, that means I'm a person with color.
I like how these poverty stricken douchebags wear designer sneakers and eye wear.
It's not as bad as those seal hunt protests a while back. I went to one of those and *none* of the people were seals. What a bunch of doucheydouchebags.
If everyone is confused as to what they meant by their poverty message, then they've clearly done an awful job at getting their point across.
My point still stands though. Getting a university degree doesn't mean you'll be swimming in money afterwards. Some people don't seem to understand this very basic concept.
So the message that we need lower tuition fees so more lower income people can attend university so they can get a degree which will make them money is faulty because it bases everything on the idea that a degree with bring you money.
Yes, maybe for certain fields a degree can bring you money. Research, teaching, medicine, etc, but those are just a small portion of the degrees that people get. As a result, people need to understand that because of the numbers of people taking these courses and the small job pool, you're likely going to have to go back for graduate studies or even for your doctorate if you actually want to get into that particular field.
It's also important for people to expand their minds, but people need to understand that paying for tuition for a degree in philosophy is likely going to have zero return. You'll be smarter and more enlightened afterwards, but you won't be any more employable than you were before. You were accepted into university, you should be smart enough to realize that.
Reform is needed in a lot of areas, but tuition really isn't one of the more important ones.
Most people I knew who relied on student loans didn't get burned by the tuition. That sort of thing was covered. It was the incidentals that got them. Textbook and supply costs. Profs that insist a $130 textbook is an absolute requirement (no previous editions allowed) then never touch it for the duration of the class. Ridiculously high residence and food costs on campuses and unnecessarily time consuming work loads and course requirements that make part time work almost impossible.
But most importantly, kids in highschool need to be properly informed of all of their choices. Bursaries, scholarships, career options, etc.
I think this is a clear case that the lifestyle of our childhoods and the media that we swallowed has led us all to believe that our lives will be perfect, we will always have jobs, we will always have dispensable income, etc.
It's a cementing of the North American ideal that nothing bad will ever happen to us, whereas the rest of the world thinks that something bad will happen to them.
Doesn't anyone in this thread see the plain and simple injustice in graduating with a mortgage size debt and no house?
No generation before us had to endure this kind of a burden especially when emerging out onto an unstable job market.
I agree with people who suggest that we should be focused on compensating poor students, but even middle class kids deserve a break- their parents can't afford to pay off a $40,000 student loan, nor should they be expected to. I think we're really polarizing the income spectrum and assuming anyone not poor has the money to attend.
If we could find a real viable way of designing a 'pay what you can afford' system, that would be great, but I have my doubts it would be run fairly. Student loans gives out money on a similar system, and will severely dock students whose parents are middle-income even if they have huge mortgages, many other kids at home, and can't afford to give any money to the kids.
And these attitudes about students being whiney, wealthy, and wearing designer sunglasses and looking for a way to afford a bigger TV when they're done. That is such a tiny minority of students! I am a graduate student- my debt isn't huge, but I didn't get a cent from my parents, I paid my first years tuiton with the only savings I had from highschool jobs, and I've paid off my credit line with summer jobs, but I still have student loans. None of my friends have designer anything- and we fret over wasting money on a coffee.
Is this the new generation we want? Saving money all through highschool to pay a single years tuition? Are we supposed to be that obedient, work ourselves into the ground, and get judged for any luxury we own?
My boyfriend and I are not looking to get a big TV; we're looking to have our loans paid off before we reach old age.
Why do students want to separate themselves from the poverty campaign? Why are news outlets and comments criticizing the idea that poverty and high debt loads are linked?
Would students prefer to leave the poor in the rear-view, because it is the body of people from whom we wished to be separated by going to university? Not only will many of us join their ranks someday when we fail to find the jobs that may scarcely exist by the time we graduate, but we should cut the elitist crap. Education should be free- period. Years ago I stood up and argued this point in front of a human rights class, and I didn’t get a single supporter. These students act as though they’re looking out for everyone, but they don’t want the poor clogging up their universities and stripping their degrees of merit.
We should want everyone educated. So many of us are so quick to criticize the stupid, ignorant and uneducated attitudes in Canada, but we secretly don’t want to do a thing about it. Would we rather keep them down there so we have someone to laugh at? Education is a right, and anyone who wants to invest the time and effort, should be in attendance. Can’t fit all of these students in our schools? Until we work our way around this problem, the academic criteria for entering school should be tougher. Bummer, but it’s an academic institution. Could anyone look me straight in the eye and say that they have more right to be here than someone who got better grades, simply because they have more money? I bet all of these nay-sayers would quickly change their tune and advocate for building more and bigger schools if there isn’t enough space for anyone who got below a 95% average in school.
The argument that university needs to be expensive in order to keep attendance low turns my stomach. If this is the case, I don’t want this god damn degree anymore; all means is that I’ve got more money than everyone who doesn’t have one.
It is politically advantageous to have a new generation of debt-ridden young people; looking for any job they can land, and offering no complaints. What happened to taking some time off and soul-searching for a while? Not pragmatic enough. Go work at a clothing store, and kiss your district managers ass while you’re there; after-all, you may be staying.
No other generation has ever been burdened by this debt? Financial aid and government funded student loans were invented in the post-war era. Before that you had to get a merit scholarship or be born wealthy. An educated populace is a great thong, but I don't see where the entitlement comes from.
Holly, to answer your question "Is this the new generation we want?", the answer is no.
This "new" generation doesn't get is that they are young, and people that are young often don't have money, you've heard of the poor student cliche right? At least maybe you remember the Cosby Show when Theo would come home and raid the fridge for food. Why do you think he did that?
You guys don't get that not too long ago people didn't eat meat because they couldn't afford it, not because it was a "moral decision". They had pancakes for dinner not because it was fun, but because it was the only thing they could afford.
Also, $40,000 isn't a mortgage. My mortgage is 5 times that amount. How will you ever own a house if you guys can't even deal with that amount of debt. The problem is this generation doesn't have patience, doesn't get the idea of waiting to buy something until you have the money. The idea of just buying a TV should be a decision, not the size of the TV. Nobody owes you anything, in fact, as you have been, a majority receiver of the benefits of Canadian citizenship as opposed to a major taxpayer, you owe the rest of the country to keep trying to get a job and then build a life.
When did this happen that Canadians kids think that they are owed something. I sort of hope that this recession holds out a while longer just to slap everybody around, and maybe get some of them to realize that it's not but for the grace of God, that they aren't still plowing fields, working farms, doing apprenticeships.
Everybody complains about student debt, and everybody owns a cell phone, owns an ipod, by the way, if you are worrying about buying a cup of coffee, stop worrying and don't buy the cup of coffee.
I'm in my late 20's and I feel like I grew up in the 50's. Wake up early, work hard, spend when you need to and you'll be fine. Only in a city as culturally diverse as ours, would protestors hold up signs saying more opportunities for people of colour. What a joke.
And check through those pictures, is there anybody there that is not middle class? BTW, if you are going to University, you are middle class.
What happened to soul-searching? Do you mean traveling around europe, drinking, meeting strangers, bungee jumping on some German Bridge, that kind of soul searching?
How many people do you know realized they wanted to be a doctor while walking around Venice. Get a job, earn money and then take a vacation. That's called life.
Also, to answer a questions: YES, someone with good grades does have a right to be in a university class over someone else with poor grades. It's called an achievement, it comes from doing well in high school, it's called an incentive. Otherwise why would kids try to do well in high school if they don't need the grades to get into university.
What are you even majoring in at university? Art History, Drama, The French Renaissance?
Wow.
I don't think I'm owed a damn thing, and I've done alright with my debt, but not everyone else is so lucky. You can stop grouping me in with 'you guys' any time.
I'm from a poor rural area, and I saw too many kids with incredible potential not even consider university because they were too scared of the debt. When you're parents are poor and you've got nothing to fall back on, it is a very hard decision to saddle yourself with thousands of dollars. This is what I want to fight against. And you're in your late 20's with a 200,000 mortgage? Must be nice. I don't think you have any idea what it means to eat pancakes because you're poor if you've been approved for a mortgage like that. You base your idea of poverty on the Cosby show? Get real. Do you even have student loans? What was your debt?
I don't want a house (especially an expensive one), I don't own a television, and I will never own a car. These ridiculous individual dreams of all having our own little piece of suburbia is part of the demented idea that got us into this mess. I can deal perfectly fine with my debt, but I know a lot of people who can't.
And yes, this is the only generation to have debts of this size at such a young age. Being young and poor is not only normal, I find it quite charming, but having no disposable income is different than paying back enormous loans with interest. Why have education costs skyrocketed at a rate so much higher than inflation? Why was it that a simple, inexpensive college degree could get people good, middle income jobs 30 years ago- and now you need a bachelors degree just to get your foot in the door, and then likely even more.
And I know 40, 000 isn't a mortgage, I was talking about the average debt from an undergraduate degree- but when you want to go to a more 'exclusive' expensive school or do any more than an undergrad, or god forbid- you're an international student- you're going to be looking at a lot more debt than that.
I completely agree that someone with good grades deserves to be in a university class above someone with poor grades- this is exactly what I am saying! Don't exclude based on class- make it free, and exclude based on academic merit. Better yet- don't exclude. I'm lucky enough to be on a scholarship for my masters degree, but all of my colleges aren't!
"BTW, if you are going to University, you are middle class." Absolutely not true. For the majority, sure- but there are a minority of people who buck the trend and make it in as the poor. But say you're right- and everyone in university is middle class or higher- shouldn't you want to lower tuition so some of the great minds of unfortunately poor people can make it in as well?
Education based on class is wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes, more wealthy kids make it in- and the primary school system needs to be changed. Scared of rich kids not paying their fair share? Simple- raise tax rates for high incomes and corporations dramatically (Mommy and Daddy can pay through their taxes) drop income tax for lower incomes altogether. We need structural solutions to these problems- not to train our students to be pragmatic, beaten down by poverty and debt, and miserable.
"it's not but for the grace of God, that they aren't still plowing fields, working farms"
We'd all be a lot better off, but unfortunately, farmers have even higher debt loads and lower incomes than students- no future there.
I don't own an iPod.
I don't deserve to have a cup of coffee?
"Wake up early, work hard, spend when you need to and you'll be fine."
That just isn't realistic! There are not enough middle-income jobs for everyone. They're disappearing all the time along with the middle class. The vast majority of people have to be at the bottom of the pyramid, struggling along- because this system is structurally deficient!
"Only in a city as culturally diverse as ours, would protestors hold up signs saying more opportunities for people of colour. What a joke."
Oh, so you also think racism is dead? That's adorable. You live in a dreamworld! Minorities are more likely to be poor and less likely to get an education. Period. Women get paid less than men for the same work. Period. There are less opportunities and more barriers for minorities.
David: "Get a job, earn money and then take a vacation. That's called life."
Again, with the way employment and debt is going- the vacation never comes. You can spend your whole life waiting to have enough money. For most people, it never comes. Poor people probably don't deserve vacations though, eh?
Terrible guesses with my major, but good effort.
Actually, some of the world's top CEO's have majored in Philosophy. And many, many successful people have a BA. Education in every form has value. What it comes down to is the person and not the degree itself. Even a science degree is useless if the student taking it hasn't considered what they are taking it for.
... because it requires so much brain power to be able to lift heavy things? Do you really think you are worth more an hour for that? I'd much rather be educated and paid less than be arrogant enough to believe that the ability to lift heavy objects makes me superior.
What about the kids who can't do well in high school because they are too busy taking care of things at home while their parents work their asses off every hour of the day to make up for the dept they owe the government just to get an education? Oh, what a glorious future we have to look forward to ...
Kayla,
RIght, there are a lot of kids making dinner for their parents who are still paying off their university debt. Did you know that kids used to live at home, go to University and have a part time job that would pay for their university? Is that not possible now? orrrrr do kids want to move out into their own apartment, live their "own" lives and raise their own cost of living?
Be accountable for your own life, it's no one else's responsibility. Also, you give me a percentage of fortune 500 CEO's that majored in Philosophy. I'm sure it's really really high.
I think another part of the problem is that if there aren't enough jobs out there, there isn't enough people starting their own businesses. Everyone just wants to get some sort of middling job that has benefits that they can just punch the clock and use facebook all day.
Holly,
"I don't want a house (especially an expensive one)"
Shooting for the stars huh?
Also, our education system isn't based on a class system. If you were the best in your high school, you could apply to Harvard, get in, and not pay that much at all. There will always be complainers in the world. You're one of them. I'm sure you've heard this, but life isn't fair, some people will try harder than others.
And give up on the racism stuff. Maybe caucasians earn more money per capita because they have higher educations, maybe they have higher educations because there is a cultural expectation to have go to university, etc.
David, not everyone lives close enough to a university that they can go to school from home. I didn't move out because I wanted to spread my damn wings, I moved out because I had to.
As well, not every university caters to every research area. God forbid- what if you lived close to a liberal arts school? It's pragmatic to say at home, but... we've all got to be engineers.
I noticed you dodged my comments about your fancy mortgage at the ripe old age of 20-something, and the probability that your debt wasn't very high. Classy!
And no, I am not subscribing to the broken western dream of owning my own piece of paradise- because we all can't have it. And according to pragmatic geniuses like yourself, I should give up trying because my degree is in the social sciences, so I'm hopeless.
I'm complaining on behalf of strategically overlooked groups and in the name of equality. It is advantageous for those in power to individualize problems (like debt, inequality, racism) and just chalk it up to a lack of effort and personal responsibility. You're not complaining, because it doesn't sound like you have too god-damned-much to complain about. And you know what? In the grand scheme of things, neither do I, but at least I have the decency to acknowledge and try and help those who are shoved down in order to prop me up.
Poverty? Are you freaking kidding me? Some of these kids have to realize how freaking privileged they are. Any unfortunate teenager/young adult on the other side of the world would rather be in your position getting an education, rather spending the rest of their lives with their asses bent over in a rice field.
So what if you end up with a $40,000 debt at the end if your degree? It's normal for students to take on student loans to help finance university. Add value to yourself over the X amount of years, network with prospective employers and make yourself hire-able. The student debt will be minimal in the long-run considering your return-on-investment. Not everything will be served on a silver platter for you.
I understand there are a few who come from excruciating circumstances, but there's no way you could convince me that the rest of these kids who are wearing brand name trendy clothing live below the poverty-line.
Does anyone wonder why university costs so much or do they just piss and moan about getting more money from me to pay for it. My girlfriend went to York for four years and I was disgusted at what I saw. What a waste of my money. Im already paying a huge portion of your tuition while risking my life at work. How bout you say thanks. Or better yet stop spending my money at a bloated useless institution.
Just "piss and moan" -- it's what overprivledged college students do best. I know -- I was one of them.
Lets just lean back and watch while the rest of the developed world gets on board and invests in education. Just backward old North America holding out, but those kids from Norway- they need to learn the value of hard work! How whiney they must be, life on a silver platter must be nice.
How about we start pushing 16 year olds who are only making D's out into the workforce? We can start billing the kids who stick around for grade 11 and 12. Get this debt going early- it's good for them!
Pathetic.
I'm doubtful that reductions in tuition is the best way to make positive changes for students in that it's not a realistic goal. But pouring out ire against students isn't constructive either.
Readers need to understand that rising tuitions has NOT resulted in better training for undergrads. Undergrad class sizes are still large, credentials needed for teaching have lowered (e.g. upper year undergrads teaching tutorials), and basic skills like research and academic writing are not adequately taught - to name a few declines in quality. In what other situation could a product or commodity fall in quality and value so sharply while the price continues to rise?
Let's be very clear about the situation: students are customers first and foremost, and degrees are probably the most expensive commodity a young adult can buy in terms of money, but more importantly, TIME. It's an incredibly risky purchase in that grads may find themselves unemployed, and possibly without the basic skill sets that universities are supposed to train them in.
If people want to criticize students as spoiled and irresponsible, I would point out that by commodifying higher education, we encourage irresponsibility and a sense of entitlement. Customers aren't responsible for making what they buy work - the party selling it is. No matter how dumb the customer is. Customers are also entitled for getting what they pay for. Customers are always right.
If we are going to increasingly commodify education, I would expect to see a more customer oriented attitude from students, and I don't think we have any right to criticize unless we are willing to address the complex factors that have led to this trend. How many of us have "pissed and moaned" about poor customer service and services/products that are rip offs? What if you had to deal with that crap for four years straight with the understanding that not having that service/product would narrow your prospects for employment? When you turn students into customers, what do you expect?
Holly,
Sorry I didn't realize that I was "dodging" a questions about being in my late 20's and having a mortgage. See I worked while I went to school, and I took the money that my employer gave me and I gave it to my school in lieu of my education. It's a remarkable thing isn't it? So when I graduated I didn't have any debt. I didn't spend $20 bucks out at a bar with friends, I saved my money, I wore cheap clothes, simple sneakers, etc. I also went to university to get a degree that I could use to get a good job and earn money. I picked a program based on my desire to be employable.
Also, we all can have the dream of owning a house, etc. The deal is that we only get an opportunity to work for that "dream". It's not a right, it's an achievement.
See, the problem here is you still haven't figured out the world yet. Government, is just a governing body that we elect to run our services, that of which we pay for through taxes. They are not our parents, they are an organization. So when you think education should be free, you must realize that it's not free, just paid for by someone other than yourself. That is where you and people like you don't realize that you are being selfish, thinking that you deserve something because you exist. That the world is better because of your existence. What you want for "free" really just costs everyone around you, and why? Because you think that we all should take some of our collective tax revenue that we give to the government and spend it on your education, your "social studies" degree. That we are going to benefit from this education of yours? I'm sorry, but we have enough students that spend their time eschewing Jane Jacobs liturgy and nagging for more bike lanes.
And, this "equality" you speak of? It's the same faux belief that we are all created the same and should have the same opportunities despite the varying individual efforts. If you were building a house, would you want just a contractor, or would you want the best contractor?
There isn't enough space or enough resources for everyone to have a home, with a nice little yard, and their own lawnmowers, washing machines and vehicles. So this is a luxury, and luxuries are only such because everyone does not (and cannot) have them- hense, I'm not interested.
So if you don't believe in the government putting the money of the people towards services, are you an anarchist? Do you believe in health care? Fire fighters? What if someone is sick because... they ate too much, or their house is burning down because they dropped a smoke- we should bill them, right?
"You are being selfish, thinking that you deserve something because you exist."
There are a whole lot of things that everyone deserves because they exist, they're rights, and nobody has to earn them. This is why we pay to educate our population, keep them healthy and safe: it is for the greater good. Right now there is an arbitrary division between 12th grade and bachelors degrees; most great minds agree that a BA is essentially equivalent to high school.
Also, you've had remarkable luck (and I call it luck deliberately) to have had a job that paid you enough while in school to afford living expenses as well as huge tuition fees. That is so incredibly rare and for most students, simply impossible. Be grateful for how fortunate you've been, and stop begrudging assistance to those who aren't.
There are a lot of people in this threat that made compelling arguments for the reasons that education should not be fully funded by the government, and although I may not completely agree with them, I am willing to listen to them and consider that it is possible that I'm wrong.
Technically I already have the luxury of wasting your precious tax dollars since as I said (you must have missed it) I am actually fully funded and working as a TA for the university. My "social studies" research area (not social studies; sociology) must be pretty useless if someone was willing to throw 30 grand at me to conduct it.
I am not naive enough to think that the government is going to make tuition free right away (or perhaps ever), but I hope that soon they will at least freeze it, and maybe someday we will see significant change. So certainly, I would honestly be deluded to think that someday my student loans will be forgiven. I am not arguing with you, nor attending these rallies for any selfish reasons: I am funded, and I will never be paying tuition again unless down the road I decide to get further education. I believe in this because I am horrified to think of another generation of young people who feel they shouldn't take on an education, or are overwhelmed with debts bigger than those of my peers. I don't wish debt on my siblings, my friends, or even my enemies. I want an educated, thoughtful, and stable Canada. This is not unrealistic.
You, on the other hand, have been a condescending ass, and this conversation is over. We couldn't disagree more, and there is no hope for reconciling our opinions, so we should stop wasting the time of those who read this.
I will no longer be wasting mine checking up on this thread.
Holly,
Actually, that is not the definition of a luxury, but I guess I can't expect a lot from a Sociology major, which is social studies, just put into a university vocab. The world does have those resources, I'm not sure where you found out this wasn't true.
Also, my "lucky" job was landscaping. I lucked out with that one, my blue-blood background really gave me a leg up. I'm still writing thank you's for all the favours pulling in hours in retail, etc. I still look back at that and wonder how lucky, nay blessed for the acute ability to earn a wage and then apply that to an education.
Also, which "great minds" are equating a BA to a high school degree? I'm sure they are all hiring out of high school. You're probably right, we will never agree. I like reality way too much. Enjoy the free trade coffee.
I like how the people in David's head are eschewing Jane Jacobs' liturgy and yet they still nag for more bike lanes.
Hmm, maybe he shouldn't have given the university money in lieu of his education.
Sorry posting on not enough sleep, actual word definitions go out the window, little sleep and I start creating my own definitions. On three hours sleep, eschewing and spewing become the same word.
I've been working at a slaughterhouse since i was 12 so that I could pay my way through school, my father also recently passed away so i now also run a farm. I am completly against lowering fees, because I feel flooding the market with a bunch of future office workers will promote poverty not eliminate it, as will the future tax hikes to pay for subsidies to schools for our education. Also how does increaded goernment spending on education, which will lead to either a huge tax hike, or less spending in other sectors, ie welfare, lead to lower poverty rates. I guess that all those bums that are on welfare couldn't get into university becasue tution is to high. If all the orgainizers of this rally would spend this amount of effort in getting a job instead of being a bunch of lazy good for nothings that are always looking for the easy way out they wouldn't be 20k in debt. The problem is the loan system not the amount of money that we pay in order to recie a world class education.
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