TTC Hybrid Buses: The Better Way?
While waiting for the bus in forty-degree weather, I kept reminding myself that I would be in air conditioning soon. Cold air conditioning on a TTC vehicle is just as rewarding as an ice-cold beer on a hot day. I didn't have to wait too long. Thankfully, it came as scheduled. After boarding, I glanced around and saw a lot of shiny faces. Commuters were fanning themselves left, right, and centre. There seemed to be no air conditioning circulating. Before sitting down, I went to open a window and discovered it had been nailed shut - on an almost brand-new diesel/electric hybrid.
I had to find out what the deal was. Approaching the driver, I noticed she had a fan by the window, but I could see it was not helping her. Everyone was drenched in sweat. I asked the driver why the windows of the $734,000 hybrid were in the condition they were in. She told me that "the windows on the hybrids have been popping open especially on sharp turns," and the "TTCs solution is to nail them closed" instead of repairing them properly. She continued, "buses with these faulty windows are a nightmare for commuters and operators alike."
TTC policy states that employees can request a switch-off (different bus), but this driver had not yet received one. She continued, "it is frustrating because customers get angry with us, the drivers...as if it is our fault. We're just as angry really. I definitely don't enjoy driving without a/c." Adam Giambrone once stated, "Our 1.5 million daily riders will feel the difference with our new hybrid buses." But I don't think this is the difference he had in mind.
Having windows fly open is inconvenient during anytime of the year, but is particularly bad in extreme conditions. In the summer, the air conditioning escapes through the windows. In winter, the heat escapes and cold air comes in. This makes bus rides extremely uncomfortable for both drivers and commuters.
I asked a woman fanning herself what she thought of our bus, "...you know, I have no problem taking the TTC, and it's usually a really good experience. But when I get on a bus like this, I can't help but be upset. They're (TTC) constantly raising fares. They strike. It's annoying. I would have no issue with paying more, if service was reliable. If I got on buses, and subways, and streetcars...and they were all air conditioned, I would have no problem."
This has not been the first issue to arise regarding these vehicles. It wasn't too long after the Daimler-owned Orion buses hit the road that problems began to arise. (Though, it is not uncommon for transit companies to run into problems with new vehicles). In May of 2008, it was reported that the lead-acid battery cells were actually lasting half as long as promised, and buses were producing half the expected fuel savings. But these issues were quickly resolved.
Currently, the newer hybrid models include a different lithium-ion battery, and reduce fuel use by 20-30%. They also have several environmental benefits, including: 37% less greenhouse gas emissions;. 30-50% less nitrous oxide emissions; 30-50% less emissions of harmful particulates; 40 tonnes less carbon dioxide output (per bus each year), and a 3-5 decibel reduction in noise levels.
By the end of next month, the TTC will have nearly 700 diesel/electric hybrid buses which make up approximately one third of its fleet. Making Toronto second only to New York City in regards to the amount of hybrid buses in service. I have great faith in the TTC, and I believe that once they have worked out all the kinks, hybrid buses will be the new definition of "the better way."
Lead photo by XenonPulse, second photo by jxu photo, both of Flickr.
Comments (36)
The braking of the bus is partly what helps generate energy for a standard hybrid battery. Hopefully this leads to retrofitting hybrid systems to delivery trucks, idling utility trucks that run generators, and frequently-stopping garbage trucks. I've read about a couple of companies making a handful of these vehicles; the fuel efficiency and reduction of emissions is much higher than that of a bus, yet are on the back-burner compared to mass transit. Unfortunate.
Well, therein lies the rub with the TTC...what you pay for is not necessarily what you get. You pay for reliable comfortable service, but what you (all too often) get is overcrowded, too hot/cold, slow and/or late in coming.
While every city has citizens that are unsatisfied with public transit I think the fare system is really what's lugging behind in TO - the transfer tickets, the lack of a timed freusable fare, the inability to take a reverse trip etc. For somebody with a buspass that isn't an issue but it scares away tourists like nothing else.
And once again an experimental technology turns out to be a complete failure for the TTC. But don't worry, hydrogen buses are just around the corner and those will work perfectly and we can spend billions on them.... just like the hybrids... or CNGs... or the SRT...
Forget the AC, I'm fed up with bus drivers talking on their cell phones.
This Thursday, Aug 20th, at 11:30AM, the bus driver on my bus was talking on his phone the entire way. He rolled into Eglinton West station on his phone, and then rolled out talking on his phone. He didn't even have an earbud thing, he just drove one-handed.
After a couple blocks I confronted him on it and he wouldn't even look at me, he just smiled and kept on talking like I was just some asshole. I got off, because I'm not looking to have a moron drive me around / get me killed.
The bus's number was 1624, going west on Eglinton. If he isn't fired I'd like to know what you have to do, besides endanger your passengers, in order to get fired from the TTC.
And this isn't the first time. He was the third in about a month. Another one was a lady on the Dufferin bus going south. I asked her if she was talking on her phone and she just denied it. She wouldn't look at me either.
Its insane. These assholes would rather endanger every passenger on the bus, rather than miss a call.
I'm going to start taking pictures of these people. I don't give a shit about the AC, I care about not having some idiot driver get me injured. They need to be fired. There's no excuse for it.
Had I purchased a vehicle where the windows didn't work properly, I would take it back to the dealership and have them fixed. But then, I'm not the TTC.
Dennis, was the issue of the air conditioning ever answered by your driver?
Mike, I could not agree with you more about TCC drivers talking on cell phones. I will video it with my iPhone next time to illustrate. For that matter, I don't want TCC staff making private calls while on duty, as I often get inattentive service even at the ticket booth.
By the way, Mass Transit Magazine has a good description of this equipment (The Orion VII). It seems to be a global leader, and I think if the windows and aircon are fixed under warranty, I wouldn't be disappointed.
I also just learned that Orion is a former Ontario corporation formed in 1975, privatized, and currently owned by Daimler AG.
Jonathan, in what way is this experimental technology a complete failure? It says that the fuel saving issues were quickly resolved and speaks to the emissions benefits. The problem with these buses is a defective set of windows, which are hardly experimental, and the problem could likely have happened to any new buses the TTC ordered, hybrid or no. Yes, it needs fixing, but this is hardly an issue with hybrid technology itself.
Anecdotal evidence isn't good enough for such an article. Perhaps they were temporarily nailed shut pending a return to Daimler. As far as i know the busses are still under warranty (which is what allowed the batteries to be replaced at no cost). Just a guess.
Please get an official response from the TTC before the speculative comments continue.
I got on the subway last week on one of the hottest days - not only was there no a/c, but HOT AIR was blowing through the vents. At $2.75 a ride, heat and a/c servicing should not be an issue. I've ridden on public transport all over the world; the TTC really needs to get it together.
J, do you know just how shitty these new busses are? Drivers hate them, and if you ride the bus you see how frequently they shutdown...
The GM Fishbowls, almost 50 years old are still in service and running rather fine yet the new Orions have so many issues with them.
These new buses also leak when it rains heavily through the seams on the windows and the seams of the roof of the buses and on about half of the buses the wheelchair ramps don't work. One thing the TTC is consistently good at is being real shitty and bad at what they do.
Too bad they can't be consistent with good service.
There was a time when they where good but that was decades ago and it was affordable to ride the TTC back then.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
Quite frankly there should be someone on the board of directors who represents the customers, the people who take the TTC. I would not be surprised if all the people who are on the TTC board of directors drive and have never taken public transit. They probably don't even live in Toronto. Because if they took transit everyday year round they would have a good grasp of what their customers go through on a daily basis.
Whew, I was about to ditch my car for the TTC. Thanks for the information! My next car will have A/C like my current one and won't be a crappy 'politically correct' hybrid either. The bottom line with these useless TTC buses, was shoved down our throats and paid for by our taxes and increasing bus fares, was all approved by the mayor...
J: Blogs are largely anecdotal. "Official responses" are for newspapers and TV/radio programs. BlogTO is perhaps not the right information venue for you if public opinion and true stories do not meet your requirements for validity.
The media space filled by blogs can be both informational and speculative - they are not mutually exclusive. So saying that official responses are not within the scope of a blog is not enough to excuse some fact checking or telling both sides of a story.
Richard S - Yes i am quite often on a Hybrid bus considering i dont live close to the subway, and to be honest, they're relatively comfortable. Yes the old batteries did tend to break down and they do have an annoying new bus smell (combined with the smell of burnt toast) but nothing that can't be improved as time goes on. I'll agree with you that they dont make them like they used to - the GM fishbowls are my favourite.
All i'm saying is give it a chance. Given that a large part of the funding for buses comes from other levels of government that "encourage" hybrid purchases means that IF they are lemons, the TTC is not the only one to blame.
We're quick to judge our public institutions without giving them a chance to explain - all i'm asking is that they are given an opportunity to add to the conversation.
The buses are lemons. The TTC reversed its plans to buy hybrids a year ago and will buy diesels again. www.thestar.com/article/519770
They were warned by transit advocate David Fisher when the batteries started failing, but continued to approve purchases in 2008.
Thanks for this post -- I've written on the lousy hybrids several times, but not yet covered the A/C issue (where drivers are apparently not turning on the air in case the bus fails) and now, the window issue. I admit I thought a report of "nailed" windows was an anomaly.
The hybrids have been conking out at a rate of at least once a day. I need to confirm the current numbers.
http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/comment/article/131819--lemon-flavoured-hybrid-buses
http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/comment/article/103307--hybrid-buses-on-agenda
http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/comment/article/182547--lack-of-drivers-can-t-keep-up-ttc-service
"As for the shortage of vehicles, there is no sign the TTC has really learned from the recent hybrid electric debacle, where politicians were allowed to dictate the purchase of unproven technology.
Riders have to put up with unnecessary crowding because the powers that be can’t provide proper bus, streetcar and subway capacity."
> "was shoved down our throats and paid for by our taxes and increasing bus fares, was all approved by the mayor..."
To be fair, you should also note that it was a purchase partially paid for and strongly encouraged by the provincial government. It was made at a time that gas prices were substantially higher than they are now.
New technology always has teething pains; one hopes that the contract under which these buses were purchased has remedies for the TTC to take advantage of, fixing these problems without further drain to our tax dollars.
However, as it's unlikely that oil prices will continue to go down in the near and medium future, technologies like hybrids will have more and more of a place on our roads.
We could also invest in new trolley buses.
Mike
You can complain and TTC can and will follow up with the info you have. I just did with idling buses.
Contact TTC in writing stating bus #, date and time and they can source the driver. The Area Super I spoke to stated it is NOT allowed that staff can be on cellphones during work. That includes ticket guys in booths. Unfortunately, because of the union, staff does not get charged as the public does but gets a reprimand on first offense escalating to written file complaints, etc. on repeated actions.
TTC also suggests keeping any pics of bus #'s, etc. And you can complain via email.
As long as the TTC can hijack the city with its demands and we have a Council that caves to its every whim (clearly a case of the tail wagging the dog), it will be stuck in old school thinking and this city will continue its unerring decline.
Yes, hybrid technology is in its infancy, but as any Prius owner can tell you, it's not about cost savings, it's about appearing to do the right thing. And in politics, appearances are everything. Perhaps one day this technology will get better, but that will take a very long time. Meanwhile, trolleys are decades old and proven, but Toronto got rid of theirs and chose this (unproven) technology instead.
The TTC has many sacred cows, such as streetcars that create more problems on clogged streets than they solve, $2.75 fare regardless of whether you take 1 stop or 50, and running full-size buses even when they are empty. The latter is a big energy and money waster: I see the Wellesley, Sherbourne and Bay St. buses empty all the time - why, oh, why do they not use smaller buses on smaller routes like so many other cities do? It's like seeing one blond chick driving a Hummer to her office every day - disgusting.
AC not working? Try taking the Montreal Metro. (There is no AC in their subway).
At least the defects aren't resulting in deaths, ie the Ford Pinto.
There's one way to get environmentally friendly buses with out technological pains or buying lemons. Toronto even had these buses until 1993 - electric trolley buses.
Unfortunately they got rid of the ETBs and leaped into the CNG fiasco. 50 of the CNG buses were quickly scrapped (Orion VIs) because their poor passenger flow (back door was in the far back) and dead space made them unworthy of conversion to diesel-only, unlike the Orion Vs still on Dufferin.
Now we dashed from reliable to lemon to lemon in a search for a technical solution that was inferior (at least environmentally) to the original.
I've learned my lesson.
From YEARS of riding the TTC be it the bus or subway or LRT... just before you drop your token or money(for the non metropassers) gauge the temperature. If it's hot then wait for the next one, theres bound to be another bus 1-5mins away unless you live in some obscure area of the city where they still use the older buses(Nugget,Malvern). If you notice a subway car that's steaming hot then get on the next car. Why would you torture yourself? Common sense?!
There's hundreds of buses and trains, not everyone is going to be running to it's optimum. As for streetcars, goodluck!... Find a window to post up on.
*Coldest seat on the generation of buses before the new hybrids... the ones with the PUSH bar exit... seat closest to the back doors! That single seat! Trust me!
As a frequent rider I find the service 95% worth my 2.75$... the other 5% can go to the people who jump, power outages, and delays due to crowded buses,trains,streetcars.
Drivers are decent, but I do empathize with them, you deal with hundreds of people a day, my day only involves about 30+. More than half of the people in the city are freaking clueless on how the system works regardless of how often they use it. It's the customers who cause the delays and I know we all have a million stories!
@Jonathan,
you also forgot the ill fated Electric Buses. I remember driving by the lot on Lakeshore filled end to end with them sitting there and rusting away.
If you're referring to the trolley buses, those lasted for almost fifty years before they were unceremoniously retired. It is a shame that politicians have forced agencies like the TTC to abandon tried and true technology for the fancy gadget of the week, the Compressed Natural Gas buses being the prime example.
If we want source-emission-free electric buses instead of diesels, the most efficient solution is to reintroduce trolley buses. Unfortunately, the initial capital expense is a big hump to overcome, and the venerable trolleys, like the streetcars, don't generate a political buzz unlike more modern and untested technologies, such as hydrogen buses, or the remonickered LRTs.
I asked TTC spokesperson Brad Ross (via Twitter) to check out this post. This might be a good venue for him to provide some actual numbers of hybrid bus failures and confirm the window situation.
The cell phone problem -- that deserves its own discussion of the best way to respond. Even though Ontario law still permits cell phone use while driving, the TTC does not.
Does reporting it to the complaints line really address the situation ... after the fact? And how about a subway driver using a phone when tunnel cell service begins...
Boston transit operators are not even permitted to have a mobile device while in uniform, let alone use one -- because of a serious LRT crash.
http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/news_events/?id=17461&month=&year=
No Ed, complaints won't address the problem I am afraid.
I posted many complaints about streetcar operators smoking on the streetcar in the Neville Park loop and it went on still. I have complained about drivers talking on cell phones and apparently nothing has changed there either. I can only imagine how many people other than me have complained about these things.
The union has such a stranglehold the management is nearly impotent. The union even managed to make sure an employee can't be disciplined for actions like smoking or cell phone use caught on the TTC's security cameras.
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/200411290220.shtml
If the TTC can't properly fix these windows they are A. in for some huge lawsuits (and how many times have they wasted millions for legality issues just for business purposes), and B. they will have a HUGE strike by the Union.
Why on earth can't they $%@@%^$Q@# use common sense, they know "ALL TOO WELL" the statistics and facts of millions of people in Toronto that are severely affected by the heat, and the air pollution - and I don't even have asthma!
This will be before the Human Rights Tribunal before we know it!
The note below is from TTC spokesperson Danny Nicholson. "NG" apparently refers to "Next Generation" hybrid models.
I guess no one at TTC had time to provide numbers on hybrid bus failures. Are these answers adequate? For example, what are these 'safety reasons'?
"The tip-in windows on our Orion VII NG buses have been screwed shut for safety reasons on a temporary basis, pending a technical solution from the bus manufacturer.
As for air conditioning, if the AC fails in hot weather, our Operators can request a replacement bus with all systems working. They have the option of opening the front and rear roof vents to allow some fresh air to flow through the bus.
The TTC does not have a time line for corrective measures for the upper windows, but Orion Engineers are working on a solution."
I'm a *massive* union supporter... A good many of the TTC employees are simply magnificent.
...but there are childish, hissy-fit TTC drivers in Toronto who drive me *nuts*: you just know, they won't be nice to us during these problems, either. It's always "all about the drivers"... they never stop to think that their childish, surly attitudes reflect both badly on the union & the City... as well as amplifying the antagonistic relationship between the Public & civil support staff.
Have you noticed TTC Drivers don't even take the time to stop & help open the *functional* windows anymore? Nope, they're 'locked in safely' behind those new 'security' dividers... ("fear the public!" yeah, we're all terrorist criminals or wild animals of dangerous unpredictability)
I'm disappointed. I'm a big fan of Mayor Miller & unions... but they've dropped the plot.
IF PEOPLE CAN'T GET TO WORK IN RELATIVE RELIABLE COMFORT (i.e., without the heat & over-packed close quarters driving us into sweaty, socially-anxious claustrophobia)
...THEN WHY WOULD WE USE THE SYSTEM??
I'm reminded of a few years ago:
I was living on Queen E, a couple of blocks from the Neville Turnaround & it was a 6AM snowstorm. The streetcar stopped *directly* in front of me at a stop as I was to cross the street to walk westbound... I got on the streetcar, figuring, at least I'd be WARM & SHELTERED (Beach residents DON'T REQUIRE SHELTER, apparently). The driver *insulted me* for being lazy...drove 6 blocks WHILE CONTINUING TO INSULT ME then DEMANDED I GET OFF THE STREETCAR & walk across the street @ Neville for 10 minutes.
She told *every single passenger getting on the streetcar until YONGE* about "that lazy woman who wanted to **break the rules!**" over & over... * as she pointed me out on the streetcar & described what I was wearing*. All I wanted to do was take advantage of an serendipitous opportunity to stay warm during an early morning *snowstorm*. Nobody was getting hurt, there was no 'danger' if I sat on the streetcar.
I complained about the driver's incredibly bad behaviour & was told 'oh, she's just like that. Its easy to make her irritable'.
So, I learned my Lesson: the TTC as an institution & some of the 'bad actor' employees don't care about the citizens who pay for the system or who made financial & life-planning decisions upon their public services.
nope.
We're an extraneous burden for which they must simply endure.
Would they be happier just ferrying inanimate Fedex cargo back & forth across the City?
Hell: Even abattoirs are being re-designed to *reduce animal anxiety & stress*
I'll go on promoting unions & public transport.
...& dreaming of a day when the TTC employees are more effectively trained & rewarded for being polite & considerate of the Public who try to find reasons to overlook policies & behaviour which erodes our City's interpersonal social standards of conduct.
I find it interesting that when I ride a streetcar in Zurich, the *original* streetcars are in immaculate condition.
& entirely functional.
And yet, with that very good example of why unions are an archaic and anachronistic vestige that drag down the level of service you still claim to be a supporter of them and desire to promote them.
Unions shield those workers and ensconce them into their position. Without fear of job loss or even meaningful reprimand workers like that are emboldened and get worse.
CUPE is a great example as well - surly and churlish with a sense of entitlement they don't deserve.
We have labour laws which is what unions were set up to accomplish. They acted as protection for workers from cruel employers unhinderd by legislation in regards to hours or working conditions. Wages should not be an issue for strike in any industry with competition as you either pay the going wage for talent or it leaves for whoever will.
Closed shops continue to try to force workers to join their union regardless of whether they wish to or not, meaning if someone wants a job they have to accept the unions politics as well since unions use the money they collect to support political parties and objectives.
I don't support unions. I do support public transit but let's make it truly public and open the door to competition thereby increasing service levels. Unions prevent it from being public in that sense and so the public will suffer.
I'am carrying a screwdriver with me from now on! Everybody needs one, windows being shut is the stupidest thing the TTC can do, anybody with Respiratory Complications, COPD or asthma SHOULD GET 50% OFF ON THE METROPASS!
Today every Finch West bus I was on in the morning had all the windows shut! I was pretty pissed, not from the heat but the bees flying on the bus, and no fresh air!
Plus I really do not believe the windows are unstable, they are the same buses we've ridden on all summer - but with the flu season coming and the media propaganda, and the amount of people in Toronto with COPD and asthma, why is it that people in Toronto would rather share germs and sweat than say anything?
Do I really HAVE to get advice from top doctors or lawyers on this for the TTC to realize the flu propaganda "HUGE" season is coming and windows shut, is like "what are they thinking??
Words from a bus driver:
This was the same issue that was dealt with when we got the streetcars that we have today ...the a/c comfort units were removed and the windows were one piece ...like the subway windows. The union, board of health and the labour board ordered the TTC to retrofit all the new streetcar with sliding windows and an operators window that can be opened. There were other issues too ...one being the propulsion units. The new streetcars had a multifunction toggle that was operated with the right hand ...the union stepped in almost immediately and ordered the TTC to have pedals similar to those in the PCC installed ...again, all streetcars were retrofitted with dead man, brake and accelerator pedals (I personally would have preferred the toggle, and my wish will come true with the next generation LRV's). Then another, the original couplers were removed because someone on city council felt they made the streetcars look too "aggressive" ...so those couplers rotted at Harvey shops. Now it takes 20 minutes or more to couple up streetcars as opposed to the few seconds it would take with the original couplers.
The city of Toronto, the TTC and even the union find ways to waste money, mess up equipment, and kick themselves in the ass.
Words from me:
Mr. Giambrone:
If the TTC needs cooperation from the public to receive more funding for the buses, why don’t you just remove the top windows rather than nailing them shut? I almost guarantee your have quicker results!!
I’am positive you are more than fully aware that with the windows being nailed shut on the Orion Buses, not only are there bees flying around the bus, but the flu scare is coming, plus anybody with COPD or asthma or anyone who has ever has pneumonia or heat stroke will attest that they NEED to comfortably breathe air, not just from the end and front air vent from the rooftop of the buses!!
If the Ontario March of Dimes can fund over 10.25 million dollars annually for medical experiments on animals (some of them live), and more money is given in grants to scientists and researchers to study the sex life of squirrels or why smoking is bad rather than providing money so people don’t break their backs from holes in the sidewalks like at Tangiers Road and Finch West (just East of Keele on the NW intersection), or providing buses that people can breathe in comfortable without ill-health because people in Toronto would rather share germs in the flu season than speak up, GOD HELP THE TTC !
Please take the top windows off, if you really want to see money funded to Toronto’s buses, not hyperventilate us all and make the flu season something Toronto can’t imagine what’s coming and is not ready for and the idiots who know better can’t do anything!
If you have been to Montreal and Zurich and Paris and know how much worse Toronto is, and if I can easily contact people in Geneva, the Lieutenant-Govenor of Ontario, Michael Ignatieff and Jack Layton for help, certainly you can do something!
Janice L. Ashby, Toronto
Global Ambassador & Writer
Amalgamated Transit Union, Local 113
812 Wilson Avenue, Downsview, Ontario
M3K 1E5
Phone: (416) 398-5113
Out of Town: 1-800-245-9929
Fax: (416) 398-4978
Note: All correspondence should be addressed to the Secretary-Treasurer.
Local 113 Executive - Senior Officers
Name Position
Bob Kinnear - President and Business Agent
Kevin Morton - Executive Vice-President
Les Moore - Secretary-Treasurer
Paul Prosser - Assistant Business Agent - Transportation
Paul Callaghan -Assistant Business Agent - Maintenance
Executive Board Members
Name Position
Frank Grimaldi -Arrow Road/Queensway/Mount Dennis
Jim Boyle - Birchmount/Malvern
Clarke Smith - Collectors/Clerical/Toronto Coach Terminal/Patten Building/Checkers
Philip Quibell -Eglinton/Bloor-Danforth Subway
Rocco Signorile -Roncesvalles/Russell/Wheel Trans
Ian Mackay - Wilson Bus/ Wilson Subway
William Fowlie -Equipment "A"
Scott Gordon - Equipment "E"
Bill Merlin - Hillcrest
Bill Chrisp - Member at Large
Pino D'Armieto -Plant Department
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