Is the Toronto Garbage Strike a Good Thing?
I'm not generally one to see a silver-lining in all things negative, but as the city's outside workers strike drags on, I've started to see evidence of some good coming out of all this hassle. While I'd certainly be happy if the strike ended tomorrow, the fact that for the last couple of weeks most of us have had to confront the waste we produce strikes me as potentially eye-opening.
Take my residence as an example. A house that's been converted into four apartments, the waste that me and my fellow tenants produce was already pretty obvious as pick up days neared. But now, despite the fact that my landlord has been quite diligent about managing the build up, it's become an ugly and startling sight. And that's not to mention the smell. Do we, I often wonder as I leave the house each day, really produce that much trash?
I'd imagine that those who rely on public removal of their garbage across the city are having similar experiences. It really is no longer possible - at least temporarily - to confine our waste to the category of 'out of sight, out of mind.' Even those who enjoy the current luxury of private waste disposal are still exposed to garbage spilling out of street-side waste bins and at the various temporary dumpsites, which are growing in number by the day. Although the streets have remained surprisingly clean so far, as I was driving along Bloor the other day, the higher levels of litter gave me the odd feeling that I was in New York and not Toronto.
So what's good about all this? Well, for me at least, the very fact that I've had a brief chance to confront the shocking amount of waste I produce has got me thinking much more seriously about how I might now be able to reduce it. But that's really only half of it.
I have little doubt that when this strike finally does end, my newfound enthusiasm will start to fade and old habits will creep back. Although I do fundamentally believe that it's important to confront our waste production, experience tells me that the temporary nature of this strike (even if continues much longer) will ultimately dull its impact.
What I think is far more promising in terms of the future reduction of waste, on the other hand, is the various examples of communities across the city rallying together not only to protect their parks, but also to use them for a greener management of organic waste in the form of compost heaps. Sure, some of these compost programs like the one at the Christie Pits Community Garden are really quite small and pre-date the strike.
And yes, some of the protests could be accused of having elements of the not-in-my-backyard stance about them. But the very fact that the strike seems to have fostered solidarity and the desire to take action within communities struggling against the prospect of their green spaces becoming dumpsites could be an auspicious sign.
While I was half amused and half annoyed to hear that the Granite Club was offering residential waste disposal services for its members, the local compost started at the Scadding Court Community Centre is precisely the type of strike-related measure that could have had lasting effect. That's why I would go a step further than city Councillor Adam Vaughn, who accuses the Ministry of the Environment of "overreacting" to the site. I would say that the ordered closure of the Scadding compost is completely misguided.
I'm not so naïve as to think that every location is suitable for waste storage, and I realize that if not done properly a whole host of problems may ensue, but communities taking the initiative to deal with their own (organic) waste should surely be encouraged and helped to develop feasible systems. And regardless of the makeshift and unregulated nature of these initial actions, I think now is an exceptional time to ensure that such projects take hold over the long term. Waste and waste reduction is, after all, at the forefront of people's minds citywide.
Perhaps this will come off as a bit of idealism, but as easily as the sight of our growing garbage heaps may be forgotten, I tend to believe that the collective measures taken by communities to deal with the problem could persist not only in the participant's memories, but in lasting programs with improvisational and somewhat crude roots.
Lead photo by severes-babylone, second photo by seastarerrin, both members of the blogTO Flickr pool.
Comments (169)
GOOD THING, the unions are about to strike themselves out of a job. The next person who wants to be mayor may want to make privatizing city services or making something like garbage pickup and TTC and essential service. It will be a landslide. The people of this city are fed up with 1 union per year deciding its time to hold the people who pay their salaries hostage.
Let them rot in the picket lines and go broke with a summer of less pay.
Yesterday I took a garbage bag and cleaned up the garbage on the corner of my street. Took me 20 mins. No big deal. Come on Toronto, we can do this, regardless of how bad our mayor. Show the unions you care more about this city than they do.
The strike is only good if a new one is signed later on this year, so the next one runs out in winter. I wish I was sun tanning knowing I can average $60,000.00/yr! Let them strike in the cold and let our garbage freeze and not be seen, so we the tax payers have the upper hand. Very poor bargaining members representing our interests!
Jesse their contract actually expired in January. The union decided to work without a contract until late June, right before Pride and Canada Day, to maximize the impact of the strike. Nice guys eh?
Its aweful how much garbage we as individuals produce each day. However, go to a supermarket or walmart any day of the week and see how much garbage they throw out. There is a lot of recycled cardboard but the garbage compactor gets a lot of use. More in one day that I would do in a year. Nevermind the electricity and water use. But they pay for it.. right?
I have paid for private removal of my family waste. $20 every two week for a family of four. Given our diaper situation I couldn't wait. Lots of options on craigslist but I hired a firm that indicated that they were taking the garbage outside the city to transfer stations that were open.
We live beside Christie Pits and it is disgusting. This mayor needs to get a large pair between his legs and kick these people out on their *ss. I am sure we could recruit a whole new workforce in Oshawa over the weekend. They should think about how lucky they are ... they have more sick days than most of us have vacation days.
It's real easy to get up in arms when we are inconveniences with a strike by the outside workers or the TTC drivers. It's so easy to blame the workers in this matter. Next time, it could be your job or your benefits on the line, that could effect your ability to look after your family. The city has failed to bargain in good faith, and it trying to push the union to the wall, and hoping the province will order them back to work. Perhaps the politicians should consider giving back some of their last increase to help the city in its financial predicament, or perhaps the unions representing the firemen and police might want to chip in a little bit also. What's good for the goose...and so on.
I just want to add; I'm not represented by any union, so I have no axe to grind. In fact, I don't even live or work in Toronto. I know, I know. Keep my nose out of your business.
Robert: I guess you are indicating that we are free to dump our garbage on your lawn then?
I've been in a union for years. Good unions are there to protect your safety and the environment that you work in. If you don't like your compensation, get another job or retrain to get a better paying one. There is always someone willing to do your job, no matter what you do. All of us have friends and relatives that have no jobs at the moment ... This is a big bad world and unfortunately it is going to get bigger and badder as we go forward. And no municipality, state or country is going to be able to look after the increase in population going forward ... so you better increase that savings rate!
I support the city against the union, but the city has to hire a private company to remove the garbage quick fast.
Union rhetoric just obfuscates-- 18 sick days is generous, cashout is sick.
Cloth diapers, man. That's what it's all about. Start using the local diaper service (Comfy Cotton): they give you clean diapers; you use them, dump them in a bag, and leave them to be picked up. They pick up the dirty ones and leave you clean ones every week. So Easy and So worth every penny -- cheaper in the long run than disposables, for sure, and a heck of a lot healthier for your baby's bum and for the rest of the world.
Also, to pimp my friend's blog: http://nomoregarbage.wordpress.com/
A couple of years ago, she did a project where she managed to go 30 days without making even one single tiny bit of garbage. She was on CBC radio one a couple of days ago with Matt Galloway, giving tips on how to reduce the amount of garbage we produce.
I think the Star is missing some of their commenters today... Alberta called, they're missing their village idiots.
The union is asking for this: that the city not pay people any less to work in 2009 than they did in 2008 and 2007 and 2006. The city wants to cut worker pay by approx. 10%. So who's actually getting screwed here? If your boss wanted to cut your salary, you'd be pissed off too.
The reason the strike is going on is that, if the city asked for back-to-work legislation, an impartial arbitrator would be appointed. And the arbitrator would, based on the contracts the city has given to all of the rest of its unions this past year, give the union everything they want. If an impartial arbitrator decided this, they would decide in favor of the union. The union isn't asking for anything crazy at all, it's the city that is out of line.
You should probably read the union side of the story, not just the idiot Conservative side that seems so prevalent:
There's lots of room to drop off garbage at city hall. Tourists are spending less time here and more in Montreal. Remember folks, there are no food inspectors in restaurants and potholes are getting bigger. Is our tap water safe to drink? Can the taxpayers get Miller impeached? We need this garbage mess cleaned up right away.
I can't comment on all of the union members, but garbage collection is unskilled labour - anyone can do this job and I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to have the work.
Why are we allowing this union to hold our city hostage again? It's time to privatize garbage collection!
You're right about the outcome, but wrong about the reason.
An arbitrator would likely meet each side halfway, and yes, precedent matters. Still, that has nothing to do with what's 'right' or 'wrong'. It's about being appropriately impartial as between the two sides - not in reference to a true 'right' answer.
We just need to sit tight and let the sides sweat it out.
It blows my mind how stupid some people are. This big meeting happens today and the city says we can give more blah blah blah. Why doesnt anyone cut him off and say YOU JUST GAVE COUNCIL A 3% RAISE AS WELL 8 MONTHS AGO and now you cry poor?? 5 other CITY contracts have been settled in the last 9 months all with ZERO conssesions and a 3 % raise each year. This is unfair to 416 and 79 the city is using them as pawns and the publis is soaking it up. Some say let it happen in winter LMAO ok lets see the potholes add up with the same amount of garbage let alone the tens of thousands of kids who play hockey in city run arenas. Give your head a shake people this is bigger then garbage. The city is just trying to save money right now and save about 2 mil a day. They will continue to save until Dalton does something about it. It's so obvious stop being so predictable Toronto. The union is asking for NOTHING more then they have already negotiated for decades. Realize that this is going to cost the city more in the long run without tourist coming here. The reason Toronto has the reputation as a CLEAN city is because of the workers on the front line. Not the guys in the suits cashing there raises and trying to take away from the little guy
LMAO I love when I hear that garbage workers are unskilled
First off most have worked for the city for more then 10 years thru rain sleet humid haze and your garbage is gone when u get home
Do you also realize you need a DZ. Have you driven a truck thru these small streets we have in the city, especially when it snows. This strike will end when the public jumps on board of the worker and demands they go back to work. Support the workers who keep this city world class.
Just because it happen in the past doesn't make it right nor appropriate. They have been spoiled in the past. As a tax payer I want the highest efficiency, wherever. As I look around this city, which I love dearly, I see lots of waste .. from idle TTC staff to bunches of suits that appear to do nothing in their offices. I agree no-one should earn less than they did last year so that their standard of living is maintained given increases in inflation but that is not reality for many of us.
Wake up and smell the roses (or the stink). Many of us working here have seen our collegues let go. We have all taken concessions, in my case wages, but happy to have jobs. When the economy turns round, and opportunity returns, if you dont like how you have been treated you can vote with your feet and work somewhere else.
LMAO appropiate returns
Just like last year when gas was 1.30 a litre and everything went up due to fuel price (especially food) When the prices went down did the food go down? NO. Tell me why councli took a raise and handed out 5 different contracts under the same landscape in the last 9 months?
Food did go down, at least basic food items such as milk & bread. Pork price is lower now than it has been for years and chicken is about flat. If you really want to go wild, lobster is even cheaper at $7/lb
Get them back to work or get someone else to do the job.
I couldnt be happier that I live in a condo and our garbage is privately picked up. Heck, I didn't even realize there was a strike until I saw this posting. Guess that goes to show they weren't doing their jobs all that well to begin with. Wow...Spadina must be disgusting after Market closes up on a Saturday night.
what the hell are you talking about? "easy to blame the workers" ... they're the one who started striking! so yeah IT IS easy. At a time when people are loosing their jobs and their livelihoods in the private sector, these unionistas have the fucking nerve - despite all of their benefits and perks - to come out and bitch about not being able to bank their sick days. ARE YOU KIDDING?
I spent $60,000+ going to University for four years and earning a degree, and I don't get nearly the job security or the salary that these garbage men with a highschool education get. And my taxes pay for that.
Points is: if they don't want to work, fire the whole lot of them and hire someone who does. Unions are out of control.
Does anyone know whether the contract is available for the public to read? I'd really like to know what it actually says.
TWO CHOICES:
1. Lets all struggle through this strike and not let unionized workers get what they want. Let them crawl back on the cities terms. (even though like last time - they'll all make tons of cash in overtime cleaning up the mess of weeks of garbage that's been piling up)
2. Give them what they want, make them all come back THEN starting cutting staff by 10% - 20% like the private sector has had to do.
It blows my my mind how easily you throw a degrading word like "stupid" around because other peoples viewpoint is different than your own.
The city won't be saving money when the workers come back and work triple time and a half to clean up the mess.
Doesn't the mayor have some type of authority to start hiring a private company to do fix the garbage problem for the good of the city? The City loses a lot because of all the striking.
No. It is illegal. And if he tried it would cause a riot in the city. The ONLY way this ends is to put pressure on council to get this deal done
If this strike was solely about the workers' pay being reduced by 10%, I'd be in support of the union. But because they want to retain their ridiculous benefit of 18 sick days, and allow it to be rolled into their retirement, I say screw them. It's an outlandish perk that no one should enjoy, especially employees of a soon-to-be bankrupt city. These people are delusional.
What really upsets me in the people caught in the middle of the strike - students and the unionized employees who actually want to work. Plus, I'm surprised that we haven't heard any in the news about the economic impact on the city workers ie. paying mortgages etc. I imagine some people live pay cheque-to-pay cheque and this of all times would be the worst time to go without an income.
I think this whole 18-days vacation is nonsense and not reflective of the real world. In a lot of jobs if you called in sick for 18-days you'd run a high risk of your job being "elimited due to restructuring". Harsh, but it happens all the time.
That's precisely why most companies give employees a limited number (5-10) sick days annually but they also have short-term and long-term disability for anything beyond that.
I agree about the students and employees who want to work, but I can also understand the union solidarity POV. I'm sure the striking workers are doing fine financially, the union has big coffers.
@ mike:
I think you overestimate the level of sympathy the unions are getting at this point. If there was a riot, they would (and should) be arrested. Let's not go to extremes here.
It's aggrevating to realize that the union has been wanting to be mandated back to work from the start. They've been negotiating just to stall, and the city suffers because of that. I don't generally like Miller, but I like his tough stance he's taken so far but not asking for back to work legislation.
I am not a union member but I found the links to the collective agreements as they now stand. The problem is that neither side - city or unions - will tell you every last thing they are asking for. it's part of the "negotiating process" So we can't really know whether it's reasonable or not.
Anyway: http://www.cupelocal79.org/ - 7th item down on the left hand side are the links to the collective agreement
http://www.local416.org/ - there's a link to the collective agreements on the top ribbon.
City should cut all wages by 30%, cut staff numbers by 30% across the board (on top of the salary cut), and ensure that all staff are doing 40 hours of ACTUAL work. Also, no salaried employee/manager should ever be given overtime... salaried people in private sector work 24/7 so why not bureaucrats? Then, eliminate all benefits...
Full disclosure: union member, but not CUPE.
I'd like to know from the commenters who are calling the strikers criminals, etc., what it would take for you to haul garbage every day, in all weather. Think about the hazards involved. What salary would you require? What benefits? And think about how many sick days you might NEED in a year if you handled garbage for a living. The payout is unusual but I think the number of days is justified for outdoor workers. Consider the realities of the jobs.
Hey Sunshine, they CHOSE to be a garbageman. They knew the "realities of the job" when they signed up.
Get the F out of here saying they need the sick days.
They need them as much as I need a swift kick in the nuts.
Wendy, if I did not have the skills or education to work in a non-manual labour job, and was seeking to get paid for tasks that any able-bodied adult can perform, I would not expect a particularly high salary or benefits package. I might WANT one, but deep down, I wouldn't expect that I DESERVE better compensation than the guy I went to high school with who studied hard while I partied, scraped together some savings for university while I got married early, and took a low paying office job out of university that nonetheless had a future, while I took a unionized menial job that did not require consistent reinvestment in my skills or capacities.
Look, I'm sure garbage collectors have a tough life. I wouldn't want it. But I worked hard when I was younger to make sure that would never happen. Whether you like it or not, we live in a world of scarce resources, and so long as you perform tasks that anyone else can too, you are going to be allocated a relatively small amount of them.
If the work they do is truly valuable, let the private sector take care of it. The fact is that it is NOT valuable (as a skill set I mean, not that it has no value in society -- clearly picking up garbage benefits us all) as compared to any number of other professions, including other public professions like teaching.
If the garbage workers are too scared of the private sector -- which obviously they are -- they should not have the gall to demand that low-wage earners in the private sector, who do not have the luxury of union-protection for their jobs, subsidize their ridiculous demands for sick-pay etc that far exceeds that granted to others with their skill set.
I am pro-union (believe it or not), but these fuckers, along with those at the TTC, can sit and spin. They are an example of everything that can go wrong with unions, not an example of everything that can go right.
I agree – waste and waste reduction is indeed at the forefront of people’s minds in a time when pollution exponentially increases its harmful effect on society. This is an eye-opener – but – so was the strike in 2002. Not much has changed – people still consume like vultures. The problem must be solved at the source. For example, Toronto has introduced a tax on all plastic bags in order to lower plastic bag consumption as they take eons to degrade. A point you failed to mention is how this strike has brought us closer together.
In a time of need, people come together to reach a common solution – in this case, a clean city. I saw a local beggar helping pick up trash on Yonge and Bloor. Pedestrians are picking up scraps of garbage in their local parks. Moreover, a local group of Torontonians have made a free website -- GarbageHelp.com which helps local Torontonians connect. People who are willing to help their neighbours take out their trash can sign up. Several individuals have promised to donate all proceeds to charities like War Child. When you search for people to pick up your trash, it organizes them based on how far you live from them. This is key as it mitigates the gas used when transporting the garbage.
It’s times like these that put us to the test – and so far, negating the fact that our garbage bins are overflowing – I think we are doing quite well.
I agree – waste and waste reduction is indeed at the forefront of people’s minds in a time when pollution exponentially increases its harmful effect on society. This is an eye-opener – but – so was the strike in 2002. Not much has changed – people still consume like vultures. The problem must be solved at the source. For example, Toronto has introduced a tax on all plastic bags in order to lower plastic bag consumption as they take eons to degrade. A point you failed to mention is how this strike has brought us closer together.
In a time of need, people come together to reach a common solution – in this case, a clean city. I saw a local beggar helping pick up trash on Yonge and Bloor. Pedestrians are picking up scraps of garbage in their local parks. Moreover, a local group of Torontonians have made a free website -- GarbageHelp.com which helps local Torontonians connect. People who are willing to help their neighbours take out their trash can sign up. Several individuals have promised to donate all proceeds to charities like War Child. When you search for people to pick up your trash, it organizes them based on how far you live from them. This is key as it mitigates the gas used when transporting the garbage.
It’s times like these that put us to the test – and so far, negating the fact that our garbage bins are overflowing – I think we are doing quite well.
Where's Adbusters with a 'buy nothing' summer campaign in Toronto at a time like this?
Personally, why should living in the city be any different from, say, a camping trip in Algonquin Park? The mystery of the disappearing trash during the regular course of the year has disconnected most citizens from their wasteful consumption habits. This is a perfect opportunity for all you 'green' city residents to examine how much non-biodegradable waste you produce every day.
http://www.cupelocal79.org/Why.htm
A little understanding of the sick day issue
Look at this city now
Look at the MOUNDS AND MOUNTAINS OF GARBAGE
this city is world class and known for it being clean BECAUSE OF THE WORKERS Pressure your council and get the workers back where they belong
I agree that this has opened my eyes to the garbage my family creates - and that's a good thing. As it happens, I really don't feel very inconvenienced by the garbage strikers...I don't mind dropping my garbage bag at the temp dump. What pisses me off is that 2500 infants and toddlers have no daycare, the park grass is growing out of control, there are no wading pools for my kids to play in, soccer (and other toronto rec stuff) is cancelled, Toronto Island is closed, and so is Riverdale farm. I'm sorry, but since when do our children deserve to bear the brunt of this garbage (no pun intended)??? If the recent auto situation isn't enough, this should be a HUGE wake-up call that unions are out-of-date, unnecessary and financially untenable. We have perfectly good laws protecting workers (in fact, some would say overly-generous laws protecting our workers). It's time to ditch the unions if you ask me...I just hope this is a push in that direction.
really? The same workers who keep this city clean? The same workers who run the day cares and seniors homes? The same workers who run the arenas for the tens of thousands of young hockey players? The same workers who drive ambulances? The same workers who clean the needles and glass out of the sandboxs where infants play? The same workers who take care or the homeless and sick animals? The same workers who care for the millions of trees? The same workers who keep the beach clean? The same workers who work for social service?The same workers who are in city planning? The same workers who are running the community centers for your children? Shall I go on? Because there are hundreds and hundreds of more types of workers. Potholes?Street sweeping?Snow removal?Pretty obvious how importnat city workers are LOOK AT THE DUMP THE CITY IS NOW travel advisories and everything. Wanna build a deck in the back nope cant get a permit. Construction will be halted. Heck look at city council they cant even have a meeting because there support staff is not there. Give you heads a shake people SUPPORT THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY RUN THIS CITY AND MAKE IT WHAT IT IS
I'm just impressed that your landlord has been clearing away your garbage. Ours is no longer taking calls from anyone in my building....
The sense of entitlement astounds me. Why are we supposed to be in awe of people doing the job they were hired to do? Several months back my employer cut back my salary by 10% because the company was suffering due to the economy. I understood their position but ultimately decided to leave and GET A NEW JOB. That's what people who aren't coddled by unions do. Why what city workers do is any more valuable than what the rest of us do is beyond me. They just happen to be in the tidy position to hold the rest of us hostage when things don't go their way. Where the garbage workers are concerned, I'd like to see how they fare in the private sector of garbage collection, where they make a fraction of the City wages and work longer hours. I'd venture to guess they don't get 18 sick days a year either.
And if all jobs were like the private sector we would all be working for alot less and working more hours
Why do people always say I took less so everyone else should?? If we keep thinking like that we will all be making 10 an hour with no benefits. Just because you took 10% less doesnt mean anyone else should. We need good jobs in this city not cutbacks. Dont you understand this? If not it will be the Rich vs the poor
Hey, I said I would have been in support of the union if all they wanted was to not have their wages reduced by 10%. So this is not an example of, 'well I can't have it so why should they'. What I will reiterate- unwaveringly - is that this sick day nonsense has got to go. NO ONE, but no one, should receive perks like that. It breeds laziness and indifference. The city is bleeding financially and things have to change. It was a huge mistake for Miller to elect himself a raise during such a tenuous time. He needed to present himself as an example. Unfortunately what's done is done, and I hope he doesn't cave into this nonsense. If he does, it will ultimately be the Spoiled (union) vs the Bankrupt (Toronto). Anyway, enough of this. I actually have to get back to WORK.
Remember to keep track of the strike days, the do the mathematics for how much tax money should be rebated to you for "unused services", and send it off the the Mayor and your local councillor
We do support our city workers, but some of them are over paid and have too many benefits if they want to strike over it then were gonna have a strike.
Money and sick days has nothing to do with supporting them. All their jobs are valid and needed BUT they need to be re-analyzed and some should be paid less. No sacrifice no reward. Let the garbage pile up and services stop all summer if needed.
Now they are striking at AmbuTrans a private medical "Taxi" service.
AmbuTrans are not paramedics they aren't stealing your jobs. They have no right to strike at a company they don't work at.
Thanks for the link Mike,
Now I'm SURE the unions are out to lunch. I hope the City holds forEVER.
I would support the union if this was about taking a pay cut. I know LOTS of people who took pay cuts in this economy, but i would understand why they don't want to. FINE.
But banked sick days IS INSANE! I think they need sick days, and I'm ok with it being 18. BUT, being healthy is it's own reward, saving these up, and paying them out is completely out of line.
Short term disability is good enough for everyone ELSE who is blessed enough to have insurance, so, stop whining and get back to work.
And Miller, if you cave, you can kiss your job GOODBYE!
My vote will forevermore go the least Union friendly candidate.
Unions are an antique concept. Hold tight Toronto, let's help their era END.
I too see it as good time to consider our consumption and waste, but then, I always try to look on the bright side. The strike sucks but should encourage people to look at their habits and their impact on the environment. I really have no bright side for the non-garbage workers who are on strike but hope they find resolution and hope for an end to the strike soon.
I wonder how many of the workers on strike are passionate about the issues they are jamming down the city's throats or are they just being strung up by their unions as fodder?
20 minutes picking up garbage! That's $4,000 of union work you just did there. Hand in your invoice to the city and use your banked sick days to have the rest of the year off, in union terms, you've earned it. Your 3% cost-of-living increase and coupon for free foot-rubs are in the mail.
Seriously though, good on you. Kind of shows how easy the job is though, huh? Now imagine if you were sitting in a truck operating a mechanical arm and never had to even touch a piece of trash. Does it seem that would require more money like they are demanding?
From the expired collective agreement:
These are the base wages
Sanitation labourer and landfill operator - $21.96/hour
Sanitation light equipment operator - $24.14
Transfer station operator - $22.67
Driver loader - Solid waste - $25.11
http://www.toronto.ca/employment/pdf/local416_collective_agreement_05-08.pdf
an interesting read. I just quickly glanced at it but, apparently, after 25 years service and with the banked sick days one could get a year's pay on retirement if I read this correctly.
The City does not have 24,000 garbage men, the garbage men are only a small percentage of the total number of workers on strike.
Most of the 18,000 "inside" workers are professionals: engineers and urban planners, social workers, architects, etc. These are highly educated professionals that advise City Council on complicated matters. The City has no option but to pay them a competitive wage, and if they cannot provide a competitive salary, they have to compensate with additional benefits. Most of these employees have the option to work anywhere, and made a decision to work for the City based on the benefit and wage package offered to them. For most of these professionals, the recession has not affected their work load and opportunities still exist in their industries.
Be careful when you attack the 18 sick days, the City does not offer a short-term disability program as most employers do. Employees are allowed to bank sick days in order to provide a buffer to cover themselves to when long-term disability kicks in.
In comparison, Provincial employees are given 170 sick days each year as part of their short-term disability program, this is the alternative to the 18 bankable sick days. For most City employees with less than 10 years at the city, its a much better system and the City could have proposed a program that gave employees the option to convert over. The city did not propose any kind of transition to a new program, they only proposed to torpedo the existing program.
Be aware that although city employees are granted 18 sick days a year, most are not allowed to use more than 6 days unless approved by their manager and HR. Its called the Attendance Management System, it was designed to prevent employees from using 18 sick days each year and was agreed to by the union.
Also, if the city offers 0% per year, they will in fact be reducing the salaries of their employees as inflation is still higher than 0%. In the spring, Council gave themselves 2.4% based on inflation, it makes sense that make the same offer to the union members.
Apparently the union has engaged a PR firm to start spreading their message on blogs... have you noticed the increase in pro-union posts with detailed claims the past couple of days?
The councillors who got a raise had gone from 1994-2004 without a single increase. In 2006 they got a modest bump (
The union has been offered short term disability to replace the ridiculous number of sick days. If that's the issue, the union should have settled by now. Actually I don't think the sick days were terrible on their own, at least for the physical labourers -- but the banking is totally out of line and makes no sense.
By the way, everyone barking at Miller should remember it was the right-wing Lastman and his cronies that helped put these arguably overly-generous union contracts in place. Miller can't just tear up the agreements, you know.
Clide, fantastic of you to point out the fact that most of the them can work anywhere but CHOOSE to work for the city.
That's great! So when the city pulls the plug on the Union, these employees will have NO problem finding work.
Perhaps they can even come back to work for the city and get a competitive wage, benefits and job security comparable to the vast majority of people who pay them via taxes.
And the Attendance Management System (it says something that you NEEDED one) is a wonderful idea. So why do you Guarentee 18 days a year? As a taxpayer, i have no issue giving 18 days or MORE if someone genuinely needs the time off.
I notice you don't mention BANKING of that time. Which, as I see it, is the bigger issue. Nobody here seems to have a problem with you having sick days. But banking them for retirement is out of line.
Thank you for your informative post.
Good call Paul.
Stuart, the good citizens of Toronto are already dumping their trash in our back yard. Since the beginning of the strike, I've noticed an increase of green bags and other trash along our roadsides. Apparently the only inconvenience to some is the time spent driving somewhere to unload their trash in someone else's backyard.
I work as a landscape architect in the private sector so I've seen first hand how the recession has affected those in my - and related - line of work. In my small firm alone, two people have been laid off, not to mention the many architects who've been let go in the collection of firms we work closely with. These fields are one of the first hit by a downturn in the economy. If projects aren't outright cancelled, they're more often than not scaled back, which of course affects the work load available to its employees. It's a risky proposition right now to start a new job. If business gets bad, you're the first to go.
Samantha,
In order to understand why the 18 days are bankable, you need to understand that the City does not provide a short-term disability program like most employers. Lets use the example of a ten year employee who suddenly requires six weeks off for unexpected medical treatments:
Under the existing program, a city employee would be allowed the time off with pay only if they have the require 30 working days in their sick bank. If the employee was careless and used all 18 sick days per year, they would not be paid for their time off once the sick bank was used up. They do have the option of using vacation time once the 18 days expire, but lets be honest, no one (public or private sector) wants to use vacation time for their sick leave?
Contrast this system with a real short-term disability program like the one provided by the Province. If the employee was a provincial employee and require 30 sick days for treatment, they would get the first 6 days at 100% pay, and the remaining 164 days of that year at 75% of pay. Clearly, the comparison of the two programs puts the city's employees at a disadvantage as they must constantly manage their sick time for future (possible) extended absences.
The union is not against a new system, the issue is that the proposed system offered by the city is not a fair replacement for the existing system. The union cannot recommend to its membership an inferior sick-time system, they would be crucified. In the 2002 Auditor General's report that highlighted the long-term financial obligation of the banked sick time, the AG stated that the time to renegotiate a new sick time program is not during contract negotiations, but during the time a contract is in place. It is a complicated negotiation that involves compensating employees who accumulated sick time in good faith and consistent with the rules of the day. To eliminate this time without compensation is unfair and antagonistic towards the unions (hence the strike we have today.) It was the city that dropped the ball during this negotiation by not being proactive and starting discussions before the union was able to initiate a walk-out by its members.
Now, the issue of the payout upon retirement. The city and union both agreed that if an employee had surplus sick time upon retirement, they would be able to cash out a maximum of 120 sick days at 75% of their pay rate. This was agreed to by the city and the intention was that it would act as an incentive for employees to not use sick time carelessly. If we go back to the short-term disability program offered by the province as our comparisone, employees are given 6 sick days per year at 100% of their pay. It is not uncommon for employees at the province to use the remainder of those days around the end of the year as they do not carry-over to the next year. So, the question to ask yourself, if you are designing a sick-time system, how do you prevent people from falsely using their benefits? Financial incentives (like the pay-out at retirement) or some kind of regulation (which is labour intensive and costs money to manage.) Remember, once you provide a benefit, you cannot not honour it.
Some people here may argue that sick-time benefits are frivolous and should be eliminated because they don't get them from their employer or are self employed. I would disagree, I have worked in the US where there is no safety net at all, I saw many educated professionals face catastrophic financial and emotional ruin due to sudden long-term illness. As a society, we should be ensuring that someone can meet their financial obligations during times of extended health conditions, the alternative is to allow the most productive members of our economy to fall through the cracks and become a burden on us all. Its easy to get upset at the details, but you need to look at the bigger picture and see the where things ought to be. The question to ask yourself is: what would happen to me financially if I was hit by a car, diagnosed with cancer, or required extended treatment, would I be able to cope financially and who should be responsible for ensuring that I will be ok?
The city has offered a short term disability plan to replace the bankable sick days. The union is still holding out. The idea that people should be rewarded for not using their sick days fraudulently is ludicrous... it's stuff like this that makes people think the union members are corrupt.
I have asked myself that question, how would I financially cope .... the answer is I cut back on my expenses such as making coffee at home instead of buying TH or starbucks and used the daily savings to buy insurance so that my family would be provided for in that case.
Society should look after the people who cannot look after themselves. We should not be burdened by people who chosen personal consumption today over their long term best interests.
The City has offered the union a new deal. It seems reasonable on the surface, it limits increases over the next two years and proposes 2% and 3% in the third and fourth year (seems consistent with economic forecasts.) There also seems to be a pay out for employees who have accumulated sick time.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/664057
So, why didn't the City propose this back in January when they started negotiations? I suspect the the 0% for the first two years would have been more acceptable to the union prior to the spring bounce in the economy.
The cynical view is the the money the city is saving will pay for the benefits they are giving to the union.
Paul,
It is ludicrous that people expect get paid out for their sick time, but it is what the City agreed to in past contracts and in effect made it a condition of employment for 24,000 employees.
Indeed, Insurance, cutting on expenses...
Sick days are for Sick people, not a reward for good health!
Put yourself in the shoes of average joe who PAYS the bills of ALL these strikers.
Why are we paying for benefits WE don't enjoy? It's ludicrous to suggest that because it's already there, you can't take it away.
Of course you can, happens ALL THE TIME. To everyone I know. Massive layoffs City wide, pay cuts, salary freezes, this is the REALITY of this economy. And City workers are not immune.
Frankly, if the unions were interested more in what their workers need, and what a fair contract is with the people who PAY them, and less about winning, and the interests of the Union... then maybe Union hating wouldn't be so popular at the moment.
This isn't only about THIS strike Clide, it's about the strikes that happen ALL the time in this city. Some fair, some not, some blatant greed.. but strikes, all of them.
How do you expect us to react? Don't you think Taxpayers should have a say? You work for us, plain and simple.
The City is going bankrupt, soon enough we all may not have jobs, your deal comes up often enough, can't you make a concession or two until the next round??
What Union regards as a step backwards in losing some of the priviledges they worked to gain over the years, is really a mature approach to safeguarding their member's jobs in the long run.
Which is, BTW, why unions exist, is it not? to help provide a safe, fair job environment for their workers.
And yes, Miller gave himself a pay raise. Which was wrong. But his reckoning is coming soon enough.
"And the he did it, why not us" approach, is precisely what we taxpayers are saying. it's good enough for us, it's good enough for you.
From the article:
"Union leaders immediately described the new offer as inadequate and criticized the city for making details public.
"I'm surprised to know that the city is negotiating in public," said Ann Dembinski, president of CUPE, Local 79, representing mostly inside workers. "If the mayor is that anxious to end the strike he started, why doesn't he come to the bargaining table instead of negotiating in the press?""
Because, Ann, you work for the public. And you get to tell us all day long at all your little protests and on your website etc. about your beefs.
We as taxpayers deserve to know.
More transparency is needed regarding the types of deals we strike with Unions. Unionism is out of control.
Taxpayers, DEMAND that all negotiations be public.
It is WE who suffer when strikes happen, and us suffering is WHY they strike. If nobody suffered, nobody would care. I am sick of being a pawn.
If the unions believe their demands are reasonable, then they should have NO issue with the city posting their offer.
We deserve a say, or at the very least, the respect of knowing why we are suffering and how our tax dollars are being used.
Yeah? its the f-ing economy man..!
I got cut by 30% for SKILLED job that i do.
And dont cry that much we all know in the end you will walk out with an increase.
ANY employer would kick all his workers out if they didn't show up for 3 weeks.
You know what? I'd like to do the garbage work.
And City could hire new work force in a matter of a weekend.
We got HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS much more skilled people who are out of job right now.
I read recently that a lot of union-management negotiations are essentially not happening at all - that both sides would rather the status quo than layoffs as part of a new agreement or a strike.
416 and 79 should consider going back to work on the existing pay scale for a 12 month period during which the STD scheme and a reasonable way of dealing with accumulated sick pay can be sorted out. Yes, that means no payrise but it doesn't mean strike pay and the hatred of your neighbours (for that subset of 416/79 that actually lives in Toronto)
Fire them all and hire NEW people who need to work. These strikers are lucky to have jobs. We can not deal with these domestic terrorists. Let's face it, the children are suffering for
these people. No pools or programs. What message is this sending to the kids! This is disgraceful. Our premier should order them
back to work but he is the same a Miller.
The garbage strike looks good on the City of Toronto. This strike highlights a real problem with labour-management relations in the city. Bottom line, any labour disruption by centralized services causes mass chaos. The solution is not to hinder/promote the use of strike – rather push for the continuation of talks.
The union and the city are legally responsible to bargain in good faith. As a result, the Ministry of Labour needs to intervene into this labour disruption, or the situation, as expected, in Toronto will continue to get worst.
Uggghhh
This trash stinks, I'm getting the heck out of the city, $49 flights, www.tinyurl.com/travelcan
In 2002 I was one of a handful of representative for a large one-time function coming to Toronto. The representatives of the outdoor workers union assured us in a morning meeting that they would wait until after the event to go on strike because they understood our situation and empathized with it. Early that afternoon those same representatives held a news conference to announce that they were going on strike effective immediately. This news conference was already scheduled and we naively believed that it was to announce that in the best interests of all they would delay. Nothing has really changed since that time as they still seem to be led by liars and terrorists. Perhaps it is you who should do some investigative research beyond one news article. By the way, I have no political affiliation as I believe it should be about issues and not egos.
I don't get sick days either... suck it up princesses, it's time to get your greedy butts back to work! I read the articles from both sides and feel no sympathy for the union. This is not the time to bitch about your job. The city has put an offer out there... you got something improved - take it, move on and grow the fu@k up!
ATTENTION STUDENTS... if you have a pickup truck and a map to a transfer station you could be on your way to reducing that tuition debt! Offer home pick-up at $10 a bag... that'll keep the people of Toronto happy and stick it to the Union!
At a recessionary times like this, I'm sure there are plenty of private companies that are willing to do the job.
Unions blow!
http://this-blows.blogspot.com/2009/06/torontos-garbage-strike-blows.html
This is pissing me off even more that I thought. Even my limited sympathy has dissolved. I get that unions have the power to strike and to demonstrate. But in what country do they have the power to stop non-union members cross picket lines. Its a disgrace that they can stop you and delay you entering a city building or dropping off your garbage. And the police stand-by and do nothing. Are we living in a banana republic????
Hours backed up in car lines, because of these morons and the police fine you if you dump your garbage prematurely ... (which they should fine you for illegal garbage dumping) but nothing for obstruction. Wake up Toronto and give you head a shake!!
I hope the taxpayer could strike to against them...(City Worker)we are the one who's suffering and paying them. Leave your job if your not satisfy.A lot of people don't have job.
Regardless of the city making the mistake of paying other unions to much in my humble opiniong, it has to stop somewhere. My job does not offer a short term dissability program, even though you say most do. Furthermore this is no offense to the garbage men but my god they make some fine salaries given the actual tasks of their job. Yeah they break their back and do a labourous job in the cold of winter, yeah I'm sure there are some things they do that I am unaware of that justify them making a decent wage. But really? My god 18 sick days, tons of vacation? 70grand? Get the F%ck out of here, to be frank. I will be happy to switch them for my desk job that required a 4 year degree, and make 20gs less than my friendly neighborhood trash man. I get a mear 2 weeks vacation and 5 sick days and let me tell you they are not happy when I take one, and forget about banking them...get your asses back to work, negotiate for better pay or whatever you want, but do it on the job, their are ppl struggling that would be happy to take over your routes and then you can have a look at the ghost town that is the help wanted section...please
Wendy Wendy Wendy
The point is you could pay someone, some amount to haul garbage ... even a mayor of a large city in Ontario could be paid $2,000,000 to haul garbage ... there would be some $$$ where he WOULD do it ... hauling garbage doesn't require much ... I'd really like to know what the grade level of these workers are ... not a sample (which I'm sure would not be random), but the whole of the workers ... bet it won't come close to the other unions.
Also those "COMMENTERS" career positions COULD NOT be done by the garbage workers for any amount of pay BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE SKILL SET AND THEY'RE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO GET IT EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO AND THEY DON'T CARE TO BECAUSE YOU DON'T NEED ACADEMICS TO DRINK BEER, SCRATCH YOUR BUTT AND RIDE AN ATV (I said it and you were all think it) ... I guess if the teenagers working FAST FOOD places started a union and then demanded $25/hr and said nobody could get any fast food AND nobody was allowed to use frozen products at grocery stores OR THERE WAS GOING TO BE A ROIT... you, Wendy, would support them.
Comparing police officer's and teacher's unions to GARBAGE workers is totally nuts. Is there a special program at colleges (such as Ontario Police College or teacher's college in many universities) with years of training? This isn't just about wages ... benefits go with wages.
Garbage guys/gals are hard workers and should get paid in accordance with the work - physically difficult and can be slightly hazardous BUT they shouldn't get 18 FRIGGIN' BANKABLE SICK DAYS A YEAR!!!
Them crying about losing what they are entitled to ... give me a break ... you and everybody knows they aren't really 'entitled' to it.
Since you're unionized ... is this really about you being worried that you might have to work and your sick days will have to drop down to the "normal working person" if the garbage workers lose 'some' of their BANKABLE SICK DAYS?
Guess my point is made.
In the collective agreement,
p.s. Also, if a worker (after 6 yrs employment) voluntarily leaves then he can take his banked sick days as vacation days before he leaves ...
p.s.s. Also, workers get 3 wks vacation after their 1st year ... I get 3 wks vac. after 3 yrs ... and they can get up to 7 wks vacation (I think it's after 30 yrs employment) ... my max is 4 wks and that's after 10 yrs employment - they get that after I think it's 5 yrs.
p.s.s.s. Actually, now that I compare, why don't one of them ... don't care which one ... trade jobs with me right now ... I'll go on the picket line so I will only get strike pay, and the person can work my 37.5 hrs per week (after my 1 hr commute ea way) with my full-salary (less than what he was working for) and work unpaid overtime in the office when 'something' comes up that the manager needs done right now, or there's an overdue project that needs to be worked on, AND I hope he has a background in Math or Stats at a university level AND experience and training with spreadsheets and databases and SQL AND THEN HE CAN PAY TAXES TO PAY ME TO PAY MY UNION DUES TO PAY ME BACK TO BE ON THE FRIGGIN' PICKET LINE!
People are complaining more about their own situation than the strikers situation. Comparing the two, logically, you think you'd deduce that there is something wrong in the private sector, rather then within a union environment. Otherwise, if the private sector is "where it's at", don't complain OR compare your own crappy situation.
>
Alogon on July 9, 2009 at 5:19 PM , replying to a comment from Jason
From the expired collective agreement:
These are the base wages
Sanitation labourer and landfill operator - $21.96/hour
Sanitation light equipment operator - $24.14
Transfer station operator - $22.67
Driver loader - Solid waste - $25.11
So these dudes, make approximately 35k a year?
Yea, wow, they must all drive to work in their Bentley's :P
RE: Unskilled garbage workers. I implore any of you to try to drive one of those garbage trucks around the city every day. I've seen some of these drivers, how amazingly they can drive down back-alley's, small inlets etc. It's a skill I've often thought was pretty high level. I guess most of the commenters crying foul over the "skill" of this, could easily do this? Not from your arm-chair, but rather in "real life"?
Well, Keven...
When confronted everyday by the Unions saying "They deserve", "They are entitled", and other such rhetoric, it brings up the inevitable...
The people who PAY your wages start looking at their own jobs. What else can we compare it to?
It is our tax dollars, after all, that pays for your salary & benefits.
The private sector ebs and flows with the economy, as should the Unions.
Making ridiculous (and yes, banked sick days ARE ridiculous) demands of a city of workers who feel lucky to even have jobs is a bad move if you expect sympathy for your overpaid, job secured selves.
BS.
$35 before overtime & benefits (and as we know their benefits are large ... 3 weeks salary in sick days alone)
Driving a garbage truck is not highly skilled .... backing an tractor trailer backwards down a small alleyway to deliver for McDonalds or Tim Hortons, that takes way more skill but you don't see them striking !
Give me a break, on my street they dont even pick up teh garbage anymore ... the trucks have a robotic arm. And my six year old could operate that!
>When confronted everyday by the Unions saying "They deserve", "They are entitled", and other such rhetoric, it brings up the inevitable...
No, I think that's just the commenters saying that. I don't recall reading anything by the union saying this. Stop making stuff up.
>The people who PAY your wages start looking at their own jobs. What else can we compare it to?
The people who pay my wages, are a private sector company. Again, stop making stuff up. I'm not a garbage man, I'm the head of Interactive for an Ad Agency.
>It is our tax dollars, after all, that pays for your salary & benefits.
lol, so? You don't audit every single penny do you? You can't pick and choose.
>The private sector ebs and flows with the economy, as should the Unions.
Really? You sure about that? When we saw record profits in many sectors across the world, did you receive a 35% increase in your salary? It only "ebbs and flows" negatively. Rarely does this work the other way.
>Driving a garbage truck is not highly skilled .... backing an tractor trailer backwards down a small alleyway to deliver for McDonalds or Tim Hortons, that takes way more skill but you don't see them striking !
Put your money where your mouth is then. I bet you couldn't even find the ignition :P
And truck drivers that drive Tim Hortons and McDonald's trucks make about twice as much as garbage men. So what's your point again? Oh right that you could drive a garbage truck down back alleys and inlets... YEA RIGHT!
>$35 before overtime & benefits
Where do you get 35 bucks an hour from?
Sanitation labourer and landfill operator - $21.96/hour
Sanitation light equipment operator - $24.14
Transfer station operator - $22.67
Driver loader - Solid waste - $25.11
which equals to about 35k (that's thirty five thousand dollars as you seem to have missed that) a year. Which is about what someone coming out of college makes. Admin assistants make more than that to START at my work. What skill is required for that? Photocopying, answering a phone, taking minutes.
Why are there so many Unioners posting on here?
Shouldnt you all be out "picketing" for your cause.
It really is a vacation for you yahoos.
If they don't fell they deserve it, or are entitled, then why are they on strike???
I never meant to insinuate you were part of the strike. But yes, I stand humbly corrected. Doesn't change my view on the subject though, Torontonians pay their wages and benefits.
I would audit if i could. And i strongly advocate for more transparency in spending. It's a bitter pill to swallow the tax raises, seemingly constant union strikes... we deserve to see what's going on.
Your comments on eb and flow are fair enough. But we are far less likely to lose our jobs in high times. And as you stated, it ebs more than it flows. AS SHOULD THE UNIONS.
I for one, NEVER stated, or even think, that hauling garbage is not skilled work. I think that argument is silly. It is, plain and simple, a job I would never do. And so, they should be fairly compensated.
The point is that they ARE. VERY FAIRLY compensated.
I heard Mayor Miller on a local radio program the other day. He expressed cautious (more like limited) optimism when asked about the strike negotiations. When asked about opening new garbage dropoff sites, he said that there were no plans at present, but when existing sites were full, the city would plan to open new sites.
There seems to be no resolution soon coming, and with the garbage already piled way toa high for any toronto resident's liking, the Mayor plans - approximately a month in - to pile more garbage in more locations? Is there a clearer sign that David Miller is incapable of running this city affectively?
I understand the political process he is married to - he courted unions to get elected, and if he turns on his own power base, goodbye political career. I don't agree with it, but I get it. But I know few people in this city that agree with this strike, and I think it is about time he start serving ALL PEOPLE of Toronto - not just those in unions.
I say issue an ultimatum to the union - go back to work and negotiate in good faith, or you're all fired. This unions actions have been calculated to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the taxpayers of this city, so we don't owe them anything. Putting the garbage contracts out for competetive bid will significantly reduce the cost of garbage collection.
In this economic climate, this union should be content with more job security than most of us non-union workers have. Many people in this city have no job to go to, and fewer options. Forget about the skilled/unskilled argument. Can someone be trained to do this work? I think the answer is clearly yes. So let's give this union's members one last chance to do what is clearly right for everyone involved, and if they are not willing, then let's get someone else to do the work.
correction: if they don't FEEL they deserve it, or are entitled, then why are they on strike???
Sorry about that.
Apologies, $35k .... any openings for admin at your work? Because you are overpaying doesn't make it right for the tax payer to.
They are more than fairly compensated and have job security ... they can take higher paid job with less security if they want, it is called the private sector.
Fire them all, contract out the garbage like in mississauga and etobicoke, so they go work for them at a lower rate. Give up the sick day (no one else gets them) and get back to work. Give me $19/$20 an hour and ill be a garbage man.
If i could find out where the union leaders live I'll go leave my garbage on their yard. These people are making unions look bad, no wonder people at my work don't want to join one.
if the city wanted they could have stopped talks at the end of the contract if you can take the crap you create somewhere for less do it
> If they don't fell they deserve it, or are entitled, then why are they on strike???
Because it's their RIGHT as Canadian citizens to do it. Just like it's our right to freely speak about it on the internet. If you feel that our freedoms and charter of rights are "entitled" and not "protectionist" I don't know another way to explain the logic to you, sorry.
> I would audit if i could. And i strongly advocate for more transparency in spending. It's a bitter pill to swallow the tax raises, seemingly constant union strikes... we deserve to see what's going on.
I have a sneaking suspicion that if you did, you'd quickly forget about the 24/bucks an hour Sanitation workers make.
> Your comments on eb and flow are fair enough. But we are far less likely to lose our jobs in high times. And as you stated, it ebs more than it flows. AS SHOULD THE UNIONS.
But when things are good, we in the private sector often have yearly salary reviews etc. In a contract with a union, the salary review only happens per contract. Some contracts can last as long as 10 years. The last time this contract was negotiated was during a high time. There is no way the union or the city could have predicted that when the contract expired, we'd be in a recession. Now what happens if the recession ends in 2 years, but their contract isn't negotiable for another 10? See my point?
> I for one, NEVER stated, or even think, that hauling garbage is not skilled work. I think that argument is silly. It is, plain and simple, a job I would never do. And so, they should be fairly compensated.
My comment regarding that was more general. Glad you feel that way too.
> The point is that they ARE. VERY FAIRLY compensated.
If you think 35k a year is fair compensation, then I really don't know what to say to you. 35k/per annum is not a lot of money. I'm not sure who would think that, unless of course you make min. wage currently, then yes it is a lot of money.
If you don't like your salary get another job ... if no-one wants to work for $35k (or whatever it is, once all the benefits are counted) then they will pay more to attract people ... thats how labour markets work !!
Just be carefull about who takes your garbage. I paid cash for two guys to remove some garbage. The next day I recieved a call from a builder telling me to come and remove the pile of garbage from their vacant lot !
Keven, the front page of todays Metro talks about how Union workers smashed the side mirror off a car trying to drop off garbage at a drop off point and the family was a pregnant mother and her two year old son.
Please enlighten all of us how it was the union workers right to do so and how the family and pregnant mother were at fault
Here is an informal poll about the strike with a focus on the garbage and the sick days. What's your thought? http://bit.ly/32jAj3
18 bankable sick days is not cheap to the city get a grip it's ridiculous to even think that's "fair". You people collect garbage. How hard is that my friend? And yet you make more than the average Canadian and have more benefits than most could ever dream of.
The strike is bull, the union is greedy, even members of the unions want back to work because they know this.
Straw man alert, straw man alert!
I don't condone violence in any way, shape or form. Nor have I posted anything in which you could conclude that I do.
In fact I'm not even sure what your point is or how it relates in any way, shape or form to my previous post(s).
Please enlighten me/us as to how your logic works?
21/hour is more than the average Canadian? Really?
http://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html
It's actually less
Obviously your work underpays.
http://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html
22/hour for executive assistants is the Canadian average.
You should organize your workplace if you feel that you or other staff members aren't making the Canadian average. Bitching about it on the internet won't make it any better!
Dude, if you were in my employ, I'd fire your ass for spending way too much time voicing your personal beefs online during company time. The fact that you're so fired up about the unions' cause suggests that you have a relative that works for the City.
maybe this guy can drive around town and pickup everybodies garbage when the union gets their demands and the strike is over!!
thanks for illustrating for me my previous question about how your logic works.
It doesn't.
Your post doesn't even make sense.
Maybe you can write a review on blogTO about how foot cheese tastes?
This assumption that anyone with a pro-union point of view MUST be a picketer is pretty low brow.
It would be like me accusing anyone with an anti-union POV to be a conservative a-hole. I wouldn't, cause it makes no sense.
You're absolutely right. As much as I've tried to see both sides on this issue, I'm sick and tired of at least one union a year making my life miserable so they can eke out another benefit I will never have in my current job. I love this city -- and I'm tired of it smelling like ass and armpit. Maybe you're right -- if we take a stand we could wrest some control of our homes back from people who are looking for ever-growing payouts.
It's obvious anyone supporting the tactics this union is taking has a personal stake in it's success. Stopping and blocking services, assaulting and opposing strikebreakers, intimidating the private sector equivalents.
Or you don't mind someone else using you for their own personal benefit?
I could be I'm wrong, please do tell us. Do you just believe anyone has the right to get what they want, and trample over whoever they have to, to get it?
So anyone opposed has a personal stake in the destruction of the labour movement? I mean that is the argument you're proposing?
Stopping and blocking services has nothing to do with assaulting and opposing strikebreakers. Stopping and blocking services is called a 'strike' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike) and Canadian Citizens have the right to strike.
>Do you just believe anyone has the right to get what they want, and trample over whoever they have to, to get it?
Do you believe nobody has the right to not do anything and get trampled by whomever to stop them? Do you believe we should just throw out the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
I believe in rights. I believe in people fighting for those rights. I am in no way associated with any union or organization that belongs to a union. (http://www.keven.squad5.net/about)
So how 'obvious' is it now that I have some sort of personal stake in unions? If someone was trying to take away your right to freely speak I would be on your side too.
I have no issue with people defending the right of free speech and demonstrating. I have an issue with them obstructing the general public as they try and do their best to get on with life.
In other parts of the world pickets are able to demonstrate peacefully and get their message across. In fact, you only have to go to university avenue to see the tamils doing this outside the US embassy. Do you think the US embassy would put up with the tamils obstructing people in and out of the embassy???
Im calling bullshit on you Stuart. Tamils? Peaceful?
The Tamils F'd up the god damn highway for god sakes. So yes, those jerks are just as guilty as the damn Unioners blocking us.
BIG difference between Tamils and City strikers.
shame on you Stuart for making this analogy.
The Tamils are being systematically eliminated in their home country while the Western world stands silent. If blocking my highway for a couple of hours helps get their message across, so be it. If only i could be of more use to them than that.
City workers are not fighting for their lives, nor the lives of their loved ones.
I'm going to have to side with Derek on this one...the G8 declared the Tamils a terrorist organization, and despite what's going on in their country, I had a really hard time walking by the huge protests without saying something. I read a good blog about that mess a while back, and it pretty much encapsulates my feelings on the subject. http://keepyourcoinsiwantchange.wordpress.com/2009/04/28/your-tamil-toe-is-showing-and-its-unsightly/
>Because it's their RIGHT as Canadian citizens to do it. Just like it's our right to freely speak about it on the internet. If you feel that our freedoms and charter of rights are "entitled" and not "protectionist" I don't know another way to explain the logic to you, sorry.
Of course it is their right to strike, never said it wasn't. Just said that their reasons for striking are unreasonable.
>I have a sneaking suspicion that if you did, you'd quickly forget about the 24/bucks an hour Sanitation workers make.
No doubt.
>But when things are good, we in the private sector often have yearly salary reviews etc. In a contract with a union, the salary review only happens per contract. Some contracts can last as long as 10 years. The last time this contract was negotiated was during a high time. There is no way the union or the city could have predicted that when the contract expired, we'd be in a recession. Now what happens if the recession ends in 2 years, but their contract isn't negotiable for another 10? See my point?
>My comment regarding that was more general. Glad you feel that way too.
Of course I do.
>If you think 35k a year is fair compensation, then I really don't know what to say to you. 35k/per annum is not a lot of money. I'm not sure who would think that, unless of course you make min. wage currently, then yes it is a lot of money.
Hey, Keven, I work in the same industry as you. In a similar role, but a different dept. I'm sure you can extrapolate from this that i make a bit more than Minimum wage.
They took the job a this wage, and if they don't like it, they should leave. Imagine an admin assistant in your workplace takes a job for $35K, but demands a pay raise, and other benefits like banked sick days and refuses to work unless your company agrees... she would be asked to leave.
I appreciate you stance Keven, but we will never agree I don't think. I am sick of the strikes, not just this one, and I think Unions have become an outdated concept. And far more into themselves then into helping their members.
Who gives a shit what the G8 calls them? Seriously, The G8 does business and trade with the government. seems to reason they side with them in a war, better for trade and all that!
One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.
I'm not saying the Tiger's tactics were sound. Not at all!
I'm saying that while we are getting up in arms about the "terrorists" we are forgetting a couple of important things...
#1 The Tamils are DYING for no reason other than they are different.
#2 The opposition in this war is their own government. (hence why I'm suspect of the "terrorist" title)
#3 NOT ALL TAMILS ARE TIGERS
Let me repeat, NOT ALL TAMILS ARE TIGERS.
I think you missed my point.
My point was that the US embassy would not put up with this BS. They give them the right to speak and protest peacefully but not obstruct. In no way am I commenting on their other protests at all.
There are plenty western world places in the world where, the tamils would have been hosed and put in the back of police vans. Similarly, the union workers would be allowed to demonstrate on the sidelines but not obstruct.
Thats all I am saying is that these works shouldn't be allowed to obstruct.
Fair play Samantha; I tend to agree that terms like "terrorist" get thrown around a little too often for my tastes. But going by that logic, not all union members have the desire to strike. That's why I agree with your other point about unions being outdated -- when the organization becomes more powerful than the individuals it's designed to ostensibly protect, there's a problem. There are currently a ton of seasonal and part-time workers (mostly students) losing out on the only time of year they can realistically work and therefore losing money they might otherwise put towards the absurd and astronomical tuition fees they'll be facing in a year or two. This strike has nothing to do with them; its outcome doesn't do anything for them, and yet they're forced out of work. It's disgusting. I've tried oh-so-hard to maintain a midline on this issue, but like you, I'm pretty much out of patience.
This isn't about labour movement or workers rights, it's about selfish picketing and holding a city hostage. I can support a union that operates as part of society, not one out for itself over everyone else. Don't mislead this argument to be about Charter rights.
The Charter doesn't give the right allow blocking private businesses or preventing citizens from dropping for garbage for personal gain. Free Speech? Charter rights? You tell me what rights would be forfeited if the union refrained from blocking private businesses like Terra-Green and didn't imposing arbitrary and ILLEGAL wait times on citizens. As pointed out no labour laws grant the right to impose wait times.
Just to add to this:
year one: Al Qaeda = Freedom Fighters
year two: Al Qaeda = Terrorists
Ronald Reagan actually dedicated a shuttle launch to the people of Afghanistan and specifically to the people fighting for 'freedom' there. Who also happend to be the CIA funded Al Qaeda.
So yea, what makes the g8 the authority on 'Terror organizations'? they've already proven beyond a few time to be hypocritical and biased.
>This isn't about labour movement or workers rights, it's about selfish picketing and holding a city hostage. I can support a union that operates as part of society, not one out for itself over everyone else. Don't mislead this argument to be about Charter rights.
I'm not misleading anything. It IS a right. Denying that is misleading to say the least.
Aren't all strikes 'selfish'. Unless of course they don't affect you. In essence that's what I'm reading from you here. Who's selfish now?
>The Charter doesn't give the right allow blocking private businesses or preventing citizens from dropping for garbage for personal gain.
That's a whole separate issue. Speaking of misleading arguments. Your attack on my issue of protecting labour rights is that of a straw man.
Blockades are common in strikes or organized civil disobedience. If it's simply a blockade to cause a slight discomfort to people like you, I say awesome! Get over yourself.
>As pointed out no labour laws grant the right to impose wait times.
And no criminal laws or labour laws grant the right to prevent this either. As long as the people involved in the disobedience aren't violent or act reasonable, there is no protection for you FOR this point either. So stop with the straw man arguments, it's obvious you're unable to speak to the points I've previously raised without resorting to some sort of verbal discourse on your own. Which should be a clear indicator that you're only pissed cause you have a personal stake in your piled up garbage.
Last Time the workers were legislated back to work... WHY?
UMM the Pope's was coming to visit. Remember?
These people have not had a contract since the beginning of the year and are being used as a political issue.
Miller is costing the City Millions in LOST REVENUE from Tourism and Visitation. Would you care for a beverage on the sidewalks of Toronto beside the garbage cans?
Lets pressure Miller to finish the strike Drop the garbage in his backyard!
I beg to differ ... it is called obstruction. And if you have tried to cross the lines you will know what I am talking about.
Please post the charter ... I would like to read it.
You're calling it obstruction? You watch too much law and order. Obstruction of Justice is a totally different thing.
There is no law in standing in front of an entrance way and taking your time to move. Thousands of ignorant citizens in this fair city do it every day.
Hey Keven
From this person with a post-graduate in Stats and many logic courses, the 'logic' is not that there's something wrong in the private sector; the 'logic' is that the public sector is the one that has something wrong. It's simple numbers ... majority/norm (which is private sector) works in jobs with education/training like I do; whether it's training in college as a daycare worker or med school or even heavy equipment operator or plumber apprentice. The norm is not the public sector ... that will be the day when we run the private sector like the public one ... example -> GM.
So the status quo is what you base your statistics on?
You took courses in "logic"?
Are you for real?
I just googled law and order ... I don't have a tv and know zero about this.
What I do know is that you never posted the charter, and that the pickets would not stand aside when I politely asked them and then obstructed me in greater numbers when I tried to move forward. Choose your english word, obstruct, impede or whatever they have no right to do this, once I had given them the chance to tell me about their cause and give me a leaflet.
The major needs to get some balls and sort this issue.
Tell me what the union had to do with GM?
Production workers make high level business decisions and design cars now do they?
Laughable at best. Time to take more courses in logic my friend.
Keven
You are an idiot.
Civil disobedience??!! What law are the workers trying to change ... I can't spend any more time on you ... already feel like my i.q. has dropped from just sending this reply ... say what you want but I won't be back to read it.
P.S. read Thoreau, Ghandi, King, etc.
P.S.S. 'Civil disobedience' by unionized garbage men ... it will go down as a historical fight!!! LMFAO
You obviously know how to use Google. Search for the charter your damn self. Is that the crux of your debate is that I didn't post the charter? Now I'm LOL'ing for realz.
Always gotta have the last word, hey Kev? Checked out your site. I thought only the deceased Bill Buckley and near-dead pretentious twits still use Latin. What a way to spend a holiday, replying to every last comment posted on a week-old thread on blogTO. Yee-hah!
I think you have confirmed what we all know. You neither have or have read what you keep referring to.
I have no debate. To me it is simple if you don't like the terms find another job, which I hope what the major will make them do.
I agree with the previous comment ... i have better things to do, Over and out.
"In publishing and graphic design, lorem ipsum[p][1][2] is the name given to commonly used placeholder text (filler text) to demonstrate the graphic elements of a document or visual presentation, such as font, typography, and layout. The lorem ipsum text, which is typically a non-sensical list of semi-Latin words, is a hacked version of a Latin text by Cicero, with words/letters omitted and others inserted, but not proper Latin[1][2] (see below: History and discovery)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum
Ad hominem attacks? Really? Did I hurt your feelings that much Nicole?
>I think you have confirmed what we all know. You neither have or have read what you keep referring to.
cause I didn't post the charter for you?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! OMG this is jokes, seriously!
I'll leave you to your holiday plans while I go have a life. Enjoy! p.s. Don't forget to get the last word in! I know I need not worry.
This is the same case as Andrew, you can call "Ad hominem" and "straw man" all you like but you still fail to address relevant points in the same way you accuse others of doing, but ultimately you've won because you've wasted enough of my time that I'm embarrassed I've bothered to respond.
So you can take you're pretentious drivel and posturing on your holidays with these picketing assholes who you seem to love.
God forbid someone takes you hostage, I feel sorry for whoever has to rescue you.
Would you care to point out which points I've missed? It's easy to point the finger in defeat isn't it? I've addressed each point (in point form actually)
>So you can take you're pretentious drivel and posturing on your holidays with these picketing assholes who you seem to love.
I'm actually not on holidays, I just said that to illustrate a point of how linear thinking can be pretty retarded sometimes.
Again with the ad hominem attacks? Do you actually have anything to contribute to this discussion? Speaking of "pretension" & "posturing" and all...
>God forbid someone takes you hostage, I feel sorry for whoever has to rescue you
Buh?
Give them the 18 days per year for genuine "sick days" but don't pay them out for unused days.... If the 18 day plan is for short term dissability why is it that we hear about it being a "retirement plan" for some...
Is anyone else thinking of not paying their solid waste management charges for the days the strike has been going on?
Unions should be outlawed. In todays times fight for yourself if you want a raise or time off. It's about time we the people strike against unions.
I can agree with fighting for what one deserves, but does the union deserve what they are fighting for? Even before the recession, it was general public opinion that union workers get more than what they deserve! Now we're in the worst recession since the great depression, and the union isn't budging from their position? Are they in their own little world or what?
Of course!
But beware, any outstanding charges get put on your property tax bill.
So, if you don't pay, and I encourage you NOT TO. Make sure the city is aware, and you have documentation to fight the charge come property tax time.
Check this out. During this recession the federal government is bringing in hundreds of thousands of people more than it takes to maintain a slight population growth. They know full well what they are doing and not the tiniest squeak of a complaint about this overburdening of the labour market.
On the other hand people seem to be scapegoating the unionist as the cause of all our social ills. Who is really screwing you?
when the world has no jobs, these fools want to strike and ask for more $$$.
freakin ingrates - think about the unemployed and how they will put food and a roof
for their families....is anyone listening out there???? politicians are morons - unions
have no negotiating tools...it's the economy stupid...
Ok so apparently some of you cant count.
$25/hr * 40 hrs a week * 52 weeks = 52k a year BEFORE overtime.
Where you you get this 35k from?!?
35k = after taxes ;) Nobody lives on Gross pay. Now minus benefits and union dues.
Also, you don't calculate based on 52 weeks. The way you calculate is ((N * 40) * 4) * 12
Not much difference, but worth pointing out.
I am very happy about the garbage finally being pickup up. I am troubled by all the hatred that is fostered whenever strikes are allowed to happen. Because of them we now live in a city where it is us and them. Us the citizens that live here and them the city workers and TTC workers. It's not good. As for the sick days I get 4 of them per year. As for reducing the amount of garbage produced why do the people (I should say slobs and pigs) that live in this city think that is an ok thing to go around eating and drinking - from disposable containers - and then either littering by leaving the waste behind on the ground or stuffing the waste in the always overflowing recycling/garbage stations around the city. When did this become ok. Cannot we wait till we are home to eat and drink or in a restaurant like the days of my youth. When I was younger it was gross and embarassing to walk on the street eating or drinking anything. It has to stop. We all have to stop this. The reduction in waste would be astronomical.
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