Why was The Kindred Cafe busted?
The following is commentary made by an anonymous reader of blogTO, who has chosen to be identified as "Disappointed". His/her writing is in response to the raiding of The Kindred Cafe by police on Thursday evening, allegedly following complaints from the community, and appeared in the comments of yesterday's Morning Brew.
Key questions to ask here:
Is Marihuana illegal?
This question has not been answered consistently for a long time. However, as of July 13, 2007 the Ontario Provincial court deemed possession laws for cannabis unconstitutional. Therefore, was it illegal for the Kindred Cafe to allow people to smoke Marihuana that they brought to the premises? No.
Did the cafe promote responsible smoking of Marihuana?
From my experience the cafe enforced strict age limits (18+ or 19+), limited the amount of time a person could spend on the patio (thus limiting how stoned a patron could get) and served food and beverage that counteracted the effects of Marihuana smoke. The vapourizers located on the second floor of the premises allowed patrons to enjoy their marihuana without having to inhale carcinogens or burnt plant matter. Also, no tobacco smoke was allowed inside the smokers' tent, including blunt wraps. So you can be the judge of that.
Did the cafe pose a threat to the neighborhood?
It seemed like a pretty quiet place to me. No fighting. No alcohol. No crowds out front. No odor. No excessive noise. As ambiguous and forgettable as any downtown independent coffee house at first sight.
Did Kindred Cafe add anything positive to the neighborhood?
Yes. Foot traffic on a barren downtown street. It gave people a reason to go to Breadalbane Street. A street that would otherwise be relegated only to sad souls who hangout beside the YMCA at night. The foot traffic created by Kindred brought responsible citizens to the area and created a safe environment for all using the street. With no Kindred, there is little night traffic and thus there is no one watching the street in case anything goes wrong. Also the people who went to Kindred tended to visit local restaurants and bars thus helping the local economy. Lastly, with Kindred Cafe being a green bean fair trade coffee shop, they were helping contribute towards a fairer and more sustainable coffee industry and world economy. Even if only on a small scale.
Did the Kindred Cafe provide a use for people other than recreational smokers?
Yes. They provided discounted entrance rates to medical marihuana exemptees and allowed a safe environment for them to consume there medicine. I could not go there without meeting at least a few people who were battling serious illness (HIV or Cancer) or had other conditions (IBS, epilepsy) that marihuana helps mitigate the effects of. So, Kindred definitely played a serious role in the medical marihuana community in Toronto.
Is distributing Marihuana illegal?
Unless you are a registered compassion centre, yes.
Did Kindred Cafe distribute Marihuana?
NO. They told me and any other patron entering the smokers' area that it was strictly "bring your own". No dealing was tolerated on premises by customers or by staff and I saw the employees enforce this rule more than once.
Did the Kindred Cafe keep marihuana on premises?
Not that I saw. And because no dealing occurred there, it would serve no purpose if they did.
Did Kindred Cafe distribute "space cakes" or "space shakes" or any other food items containing cannabis?
Who's to say? Has anyone seen them prepare their food? Did anyone see without a shadow of a doubt marihuana placed into various foods and distributed to the customers? Did the products even work or were the patrons stoned from smoking? If the drinks were laced, was it with weed or simply Huelen or some other medicinal herb known to cause relaxation and sedation.
So that question remains unanswered for now.
Is selling marihuana edibles illegal?
This question has unclear answers as well. I hope I remember correctly; in the book Bud Inc. the author has a section dedicated to a woman in BC who sold cookies laced with marihuana for a sustained period of time. She was charged but later charges were dropped. However, recently (Sept 5, 2008) marihuana edibles maker "Tainted Inc" was charged with manufacturing marihuana edibles.
Marihuana edibles do offer a smoke-free way for users to ingest the active ingredients of the plant without having to inhale carcinogens or burnt organics and is therefore a healthy way to get a buzz on. However the legality of these edibles is still in question.
With all this said, did Kindred Cafe break the law?
Maybe. Depends on whether the "space cakes" were legit and whether those cakes are in fact illegal.
I am disappointed. I thought Canada was a progressive country that respected the rights of the individual. I do not see the crime here. I see people ingesting their medicine or coping mechanism in a safe and social environment and not affecting other people that did not want to be involved in the activity. It is sad. The Kindred was a social experiment that showed how the marihuana industry can be responsible, and can actually be an asset to a neighborhood - a place where medicating oneself was not a private act by an isolated individual in a cold environment but a community activity that fostered understanding and tolerance. It was a place were people from all spectrums could meet, talk and smile. It is sad.
There seems to be no shortage of liquor licenses for new bars that allow the consumption of a far more damaging substance. A simple historical bias allows for this. Police and policy makers simply cannot justify their stance on Marihuana or substance prohibition in general. Study after study after study has shown that the "war on drugs" does not work in any sense and that treating drug use as a health issue and not a criminal issue leads to lower drug use and populations.
The average citizen does not even understand why a certain drug is illegal. Again and again I am faced with the same cyclical answers:
"Why are drugs illegal?"
"Because drugs are bad."
"Why are drugs bad?"
"Because drugs are illegal."
Unfortunately, people cannot seem to escape this type of puritanical rhetoric and it still holds sway in our government as the raid on Kindred showed. Our country is not progressive: we spew out just as much greenhouse gases per capita as the US, Canada is in love with Wal-Mart and McDonalds, we rape our pristine nature in the name of oil companies and racism against First Nations Peoples is entrenched in our national identity. Now we are following the same "war on drugs" style enforcement that even the US government is admitting was a mistake.
I am disappointed indeed.
Photos: kindredcafe.com
Comments (86)
As valid as your points are - perhaps their re-opening and/or re-branding should occur somewhat further from police headquarters next time - the sheer proximity ( was it even > 1000 m? ) must have seemed like an outrageous taunt to the boys and girls in blue.
Perhaps that was also the point.. to try and force the matter into the judicial system? I don't know.
as much as kindred was low-key and not seedy or violent, they were a place that sold pot smoothies and the occasional pot baked good, thus distinguishing them from the more blatant roacharama in kensington. Of course, by your logic unless we're in the kitchen with them, it's impossible to be sure. I'll just say that if they weren't putting any pot into food, then they GROSSLY overcharged me for that 'special shake'. and my friends must have gotten stoned via the placebo effect.
One reason why drugs are bad is because they are illegal - this, alone and uncyclically, is a valid answer. You cannot have a society in which people get to choose which laws they obey and which they don't (or at least, if they choose not to obey them, they have to be prepared to face the consequences, without argument).
The next question is, of course, SHOULD drugs be illegal? A far more complicated question, and there's plenty of argument on both sides. However, this is not my point. The consumption of all drugs (OTC meds, alcohol, nicotine, and what we often refer to as 'recreational drugs') is regulated by the law. Break these laws, and you should be prepared to be punished. If you don't like these laws, you can't just flout them - work to change them.
"Why are drugs illegal?"
"Because drugs are bad."
"Why are drugs bad?"
"Because drugs impair motor functions, critical thinking, and proper judgment. Because people do stupid things that are either dangerous to themselves or others when high due to the clouded judgment drugs cause. And because they have a tendency to be addictive. Therefore, I would think being addicted to something that makes you stupid is bad."
Better?
@Say What?:
we're talking about weed here, dude, get real.
the OP did use the word "drugs," but the issue here is about weed.
let's not turn this into a discussion about whether or not coke, meth, k, et cetera are bad. it's obvious those drugs are bad.
the issue is about marijuana.
it's been said before, and it'll be said again, but alcohol is distributed legally and widely, and frankly, you need not go further than the club district on a given night to see the effects alcohol has. yelling, fighting, general idiocy, vomiting. the rooftop of kindred? a bunch of peaceful, relaxed people having a coffee and a toke.
"Alcohol impairs motor functions, critical thinking, and proper judgment. Because people do stupid things that are either dangerous to themselves or others when drunk due to the clouded judgment drinks cause. And because they have a tendency to be addictive. Therefore, I would think being addicted to something that makes you stupid is bad."
Do you see the fault in your logic now? Marijuana isn't bad because it's illegal. It shouldn't be illegal because people get high, just like alcohol shouldn't be illegal because people get drunk. Plenty of people use both responsibly. Prohibition doesn't do much to deter marijuana use. People will smoke, regardless of the laws surrounding it just as people kept on drinking despite the alcohol prohibition of the early 20th-century. Why not encourage safe venues for the responsible consumption of both? Drunk idiots on Richmond isn't grounds for closing up every bar and club in downtown Toronto; some stoned folks smoking away a little pain shouldn't be a cause for concern just because marijuana is illegal. Since when were laws right only by virtue of being a law?
Sultan, You don`t need drugs to impair proper judgment. Have you noticed recently that people have been doing stupid things that are dangerous to all of us because of their addiction to profit and money.
The use of the "h" in marijuana was not accidental. It is the spelling used by the police. The spelling originates from the deep southern states in the early 20th century. It gives a mexican flavor to the word, a popular theme in anti marijuana propaganda at the time. The original branding of the drug was that it was smoked by Mexican workers and that it was responsible for their so called poor work ethic.
The fact that the police still use it as official language just serves as another example of how outdated drug policy is in this country.
So people will now have to get high in their living rooms. Oh well.
Also, remaining anonymous does nothing to, err, un-demonize the drug. Have the balls to stand up for what you believe in. No other group of people who had to fight for what they believed in succeeded in changing policies and public perception by wearing masks and being afraid to step forth.
You can drink without getting wasted, but the whole point of smoking weed is getting high. Just sayin'.
I'm not convinced weed should be illegal, and I have nothing against Kindred, but they can't really complain since they were breaking the law.
First off, PLEASE learn how to spell mariJuana. I'm not sure if it's a perpetual error in this article, or somebody's trying to anglicize the spelling of this word.
Secondly, consuming food or drink does not counteract the effects of marijuana in the slightest. The only thing that makes you less high is time. If you're too stoned, wait a couple of hours; its in your blood, not in your stomach. The only thing consuming food or drink under the influence of marijuana does is satisfy your munchies or pasties. yum.
Now for some positivity, thank you for speaking out about this completely outrageous attack on a lawful, successful downtown cafe. It's a shame. I especially identify with this:
"Why are drugs illegal?"
"Because drugs are bad."
"Why are drugs bad?"
"Because drugs are illegal."
EDIT: now that I've read through the comments thoroughly, I realize some of these issues were already mentioned. Sorry.
Piccola, are u sure you're not a drinker in denial?
A logical response to your argument is that 'you can smoke weed without getting wasted' too. We are an addicted society and suffer because of it.
I used to go there frequently, not to smoke, but because they had great coffee, a decent goat cheese sandwich, free wireless, wonderful staff and a great atmosphere.
I can attest to much of Disappointed wrote: the staff were *very* strict about age limits (no id, no room), I never saw anyone deal, if anyone got weird or rowdy they were politely but firmly escorted off the premises, and, for what it's worth, the odour even in the downstairs cafe was minimal.
I'm disappointed, too.
it would be down right stupid, and naiive to think word of mouth wouldnt spread, and the cops wouldnt come knocking,
MJ is illegal, with the exception of "medicinal" use.
regardless of how "strict" staff/management were, and however extreme they went to ensure safe practices were maintained, this is still promoting a business based upon a majority of illegal users.
if they removed the culture of weed out of their establishment, focused on that great coffee, and goat cheese sandwich, they would do fine, and not have been busted,
serves em right
Hey safetyfirst, what's with the hydroponics link? Is this a business promotion or just a diversion?
Smoking tent? That's illegal anywhere in the province, no matter what substance is being smoked.
No marijuana restaurants. Full stop.
It does not matter whether they sold the drug or not. If it is a place where many people consume drugs, it is a danger to society.
timothyt, 'A Danger To Society'? Give me a break!
I'm sure customers of this restaurant have not caused any danger to society. Maybe you should be more concerned about the danger to society caused by legal and legitimate banking, auto, & oil corporate mismanagement. They actually want you to bail them out! And that's not from jail!
@Al Hunter: Nah, I can count on one hand the drinks I have in a month. I get what you're saying, I just meant that the comparison with alcohol isn't entirely accurate.
Piccola, R u saying that weed smokers cannot control their consumption like you can with alcohol?
maybe the cops busted them because they ordered the brownies and were outraged by the price when they saw all they were getting was 4 tiny chocolate cubes and mountain of whip cream.
Bob wrote:
"Secondly, consuming food or drink does not counteract the effects of marijuana in the slightest. The only thing that makes you less high is time. If you're too stoned, wait a couple of hours; its in your blood, not in your stomach. The only thing consuming food or drink under the influence of marijuana does is satisfy your munchies or pasties. yum."
Bob you are correct that the active ingredient is held in the bloodstream and not the stomach, however these chemicals pass from the blood into our bodies waste. By drinking water, coffee or other diuretics one speeds up the process of drug removal from the system and therefore will decrease the strength of a buzz. So you dismissal of the buzz killing effects of food and drink is not complete.
Mr. Hood wrote:
"MJ is illegal, with the exception of "medicinal" use.
regardless of how "strict" staff/management were, and however extreme they went to ensure safe practices were maintained, this is still promoting a business based upon a majority of illegal users."
As of July 13, 2007 the Provincial Court of Ontario deemed possession laws regarding Marihuana unconstitutional. Thus "MJ" is not illegal and the business was not based upon a majority of "illegal users".
Kip wrote:
"Smoking tent? That's illegal anywhere in the province, no matter what substance is being smoked."
This is a matter for a provincial bylaw officer, not the Toronto Police drug squad.
I could not agree with Disappointed more, and frankly I'm surprised by the general lack of concrete knowledge on the subject even here in these comments. I'm not going to spend the time and go over all the arguments again, as it seems they fall on deaf ears. Instead, how about this. Poster "timothyt" and seemingly millions of others seem to think that Marijuana itself is a danger to society. The government has been lying to us, folks.
I have only this to reference:
Number of Alcohol-related deaths per year: 100,000+
Number of Tobacco-related deaths per year: 400,000+
Number of Marijuana-related deaths per year: 0.
In fact, nobody has EVER died of a Marijuana overdose EVER in recorded history, and Marijuana users also have the same or lower incidents of murders and highway deaths and accidents than the general non-marijuana using population as a whole.
The government controls, regulates, and sells thousands of dangerous drugs and substances every year, and millions of people die from them. Come on folks, remove the wool from your eyes. Don't accept that, "because it's the law, it's correct". All laws were created by humans, just like us. Critical thought, people - careful, critical thinking.
That's all it takes.
-HC
Do the research the LD50, the point at which something kills half of it's subjects, of cannabis is 5 times that of water. Read: water is more posionous that cannabis.
We're not talking drowning, we're talking toxicity.
To poison oneself from cannabis, one would have to smoke a pound of cannabis a minute for 15 minutes. Impossible. You would pass out from lack of oxygen first.
Now compare that to alcohol.
Smoking tobacco in a tent is illegal. Smoking marijuana is not, under any municipal or provincial bylaw. The province nor municipalities don't have the legal power to regulate marijuana consuption. Period.
Interesting case at the human rights commission about smoking pot in bars:
excellent point form information on Kindred Cafe. a rally is planned for owner Dom Cramer, Monday, Nov. 24 out front of Old City Hall 60 Queen West. corner of Bay & Queen West. the only error i spotted was about registered compassion club. there's no such thing. though wouldn't it be great if all plans like compassion clubs and Kindred Cafe could be registered.
if you accept that the government has any say as to what you can and cannot put into your own body, then you must accept their ownership. That means the government owns you - like a slave, a pet, or livestock - and that you have only the rights that they grant.
If you accept that, then you deserve to have no rights at all.
This article conflates two things -- whether marijuana should be illegal, and whether it should be ok to break laws you don't agree with for commercial gain.
All the stuff that is written about how much less harmful marijuana is than alcohol is true, but it doesn't really matter. I personally believe that marijuana use and sale ought to be legal, but unfortunately we live in a democracy and the majority of Canadians don't seem to think that is is an important enough issue to base their vote on (and hey, I agree -- I'm not going to vote for the Weed Party any time soon).
So all this talk about how marijuana should be legal -- ok, great, so get out there, lobby the government, convince your fellow citizens that this is a burning issue that needs to be addressed etc.
But for now, the sale of space cakes is illegal. I wish it weren't, but it is. So the question that this article should be asking, but isn't, is "should we allow businesses to break laws for commercial gain when they disagree with those laws?"
Surely the answer is "no". We wouldn't allow Wal-Mart to ignore minimum wage and safety laws (and there would be an absolute uproar around here, rightly so, if they did). So why do we think it is ok for the corporation that owns the Kindred Cafe to ignore sections of the criminal code? Because they are "small", "trendy", or what?
The Kindred Cafe is just another business trying to make a buck, and I have no sympathy for corporations that selectively pick and choose the laws they want to follow.
John, agreed.
"They shouldn't have been busted because Marijuana shouldn't be illegal" isn't really a fair argument. They are two separate issues.
The police tolerated people smoking weed on their premises and only intervened when they found out they were selling space cakes (Which regardless of the author's opinion is very clearly illegal). The business crossed a line and it shouldn't be surprising when they are held accountable for it.
you should all be aware that marijuana possession is infact still illegal in Canada, despite the 2007 court decision some of you have referred to. the unconstitutionality of the marijuana possession law was in relation to medical usage, in that since the government provided an exemption for medicinal use of marijuana it was obligated to provide a legal source of the drug for exemptees. as well, a 2008 court decision has confirmed that section 4 of the controlled drugs and substances act, which deals with marijauna possession, IS STILL VALID. to repeat, marijuana possession is illegal, even if you're peaceful when you use it, even if you're 19+, even if you've turned it into a brownie, unless you have a doctor-issued, government-approved medical exemption.
now, police will generally turn a blind eye to small possession offences, but that in itself does not make possession legal. until Parliament changes the CDSA, you can still be charged for possession, even small amounts if they choose.
in this particular case, if this cafe was caught possessing/selling space cakes they have broken the law.
Ok, I read this yesterday and one of the author's answers is still bothering me. I love MJ, or MH in this case, and yeah, I don't have a big problem with pot cafes. But anyone who does open a pot cafe, I think should know that there will be a high level of legal scrutiny, and they should be careful to follow the rules. You know, show that you're not a scum of the earth problem, but a responsible community member.
The answer to the question about the Space Cakes and such is really vague. Honestly, "Who can say?" What kind of an answer is that. Who can say, who was in the kitchen, did it even work, maybe it was something else, etc, is not the right response. And frankly, if the police had reliable information that MH was served in any way, and from the vague answer, I think we can say their information was fairly reliable, they were doing the right thing to bust the place.
Whether it should be or not, selling weed is illegal. If you're engaging in illegal activities publically, you're going to get shut down, and I won't have any sympathy.
"We wouldn't allow Wal-Mart to ignore minimum wage and safety laws (and there would be an absolute uproar around here, rightly so, if they did). So why do we think it is ok for the corporation that owns the Kindred Cafe to ignore sections of the criminal code?"
because wal-mart paying unfair wages or ignoring safety laws is a much greater violation of canadians' rights. now i know it's a slippery slope to begin to distinguish which rights are more important than others. but that said, wal-mart violating wage and safety rights is a MUCH bigger issue, considering probably 99 percent of canadians don't even know what the kindred cafe is. the ramifications of proper wages and safety are much more dire than those of someone letting people smoke dope on the patio of his cafe.
i totally understand what you mean, but comparing kindred with wal-mart is a bit apples/oranges, i think.
so yes, if a place like kindred can fly under the radar, i think absolutely they can violate parts of the criminal code. however, unfortunately something pushed them past the tipping point and they were shut down, which is too bad.
I think the issue at hand is whether society is being WRONGED by illegal actions. The purpose of laws and lawmakers are to keep society functional and progressive, but when those laws no longer uphold those purposes and instead perpetrate bureaucracy, what is their value? I agree that disobeying laws on the basis that they shouldn't exist isn't practical, and that lobbying to CHANGE those laws is the right direction, but it begins with education. Only once the government is willing to educate its population without pre-existing bias can that population and its lawmakers make informed decisions.
Who is being hurt by Marijuana? If it can be established that only a miniscule percentage of MJ users are "problem" or "at-risk" users, as has been established, then the laws against it should be abolished. If nobody is being hurt, why is our government spending so much money enforcing fruitless laws? Honestly, why can't the government take the money they're using to fight marijuana, and focus on homelessness and mental health, or dozens of other HEALTH issues that plague our society today? Would that not create a better Canada?
@Al Hunter - Not at all. Not making any judgments as to the habits or willpower of consumers. Just saying the purpose of weed is to get high, whereas the purpose of alcohol isn't necessarily to get drunk.
The Toronto Police need to stop wasting their time making stupid busts like that, theres people selling crack and, killing people, and their wasting their time trying to ruin other peoples fun. Noone was killed, and nothing was going on at kindreds cafe that should really make people worry for their lives. Fuck man these cops have to fuck around when people try and mind their business and run a damn respectable business.
People who carry on that weed is a danger to society and should remain illegal really have no clue as to what they're talking about. They live sheltered lives and the second someone deviates from the norm their whole world begins to fall apart. Grow a spine, do your own research and learn to think for yourselves.
SayWhat and timothyt, you really are pathetic. You're probably the type that drink yourselves into a coma and then look down at people who smoke weed. Useless...
Why is Cannabis illegal in the first place, Oh yeah racism. We all know it's safer than a coffee bean. It should be legalized & regulated. Anyone in this day & age to be duped into believing it's harmful is not a very sharp person. Damn ignorant trailer park trash is what they amount to. Prohibition is what's dangerous, not Cannabis. I'm going to blaze right now, I've got a big day tomorrow & no bail out for my company, not that I need one.
I completely agree with Mr. D above, and Russell Barth further above. Government has no right telling individuals what they are allowed to eat! ANY SUCH LAW IS WRONG. Period. This should be obvious from our most fundamental "right" to our own lives.
John asked above, "should we allow businesses to break laws for commercial gain when they disagree with those laws?". If it's an unconstitutional law, that completely contradicts a more important law, YES. And I applaud Kindred Cafe for taking the initiative.
And to all those c*cks*cking pigs involved in this blatant repression, F*CK Y*U. It is because of these indifferent and ignorant police who are "simply doing their jobs" that such evils are allowed to persist.
Arrrrrrrrgghh. The only thing that makes me more angry than that, is those idiots above who somehow have managed to convince themselves that it is ok to enforce the menus of their fellow men. To those people: "Get the f*ck out of other people's lives! And try *thinking on your own* for a change! Or thinking period!!"
I will not apologize for the harshness of this comment, since the harshness of this absurd prohibition and the ignorance of those who support it is infinitely worse.
I bet alot of you people that crucify pot don't give a second thought when you have that 1 beer too many and make an ass of yourself and maybe even get violent or in your car..or the guy that spends 700 dollars a month to buy cigg's (that are legally supplied and have more chemicals than pot by the government) come on people put your beer down and wake up!!! pot is the less of the 3 drugs, you people have been hypnotized by the government's lack of education yet again...go back to school! and as far as i'm concerned it is the government and the police doing the illegal action..(taking away freedom)maybe they have a deal with the cigarette and alcohol companies lol!
I bet alot of you people that crucify pot don't give a second thought when you have that 1 beer too many and make an ass of yourself and maybe even get violent or in your car..or the guy that spends 700 dollars a month to buy cigg's (that are legally supplied and have more chemicals than pot by the government) come on people put your beer down and wake up!!! pot is the less of the 3 drugs, you people have been hypnotized by the government's lack of education yet again...go back to school! and as far as i'm concerned it is the government and the police doing the illegal action..(taking away freedom)maybe they have a deal with the cigarette and alcohol companies lol!
my uncle works at the kindred cafe and from what i seen there was no dealing of weed and I've been there been there a lot the food and and drinks are great even without the weed smoking area they still would have done great but now my uncle out of a job but hey what can he do about it
i completely agree with you Dennisn they should stay the hell out of other peoples live and think about there own this was a great business and still can be if they let them reopen and i think they should they'll still have a good business without the weed
dennisn:
I sympathise with your feelings on this (again, I am pro the use and sale of marijuana) but you are confused as to how the law and government works. The law forbidding the sale of marijuana is not "unconstitutional" just because you don't like it. In fact, a legal challenge brought saying it was "unconstitutional" was dimissed by the Supreme Court of Canada.
They dismissed it not becauase they said that marijuana use is bad, but simply that it is within the power of the government to regulate or prohibit the sale of certain substances. Now, you and I think that they should not prohibit marijuana. But until we can convince a majority of our fellow citizens that this is really important, this law will not change.
Saying it is "unconstitutional" is silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Canadian constitution and courts operate. The prohibition on marijuana is no more unconstitutional than the prohibition on 18 year olds drinking alcohol.
To the people getting overly defensive:
Few people in this comment section appear to be 'crucifying' pot. Most of the people are commenting that irregardless of whether pot is 'good or bad', the cafe was in the wrong for blatently breaking the law and serving space cakes.
Oh really? Was Rosa Parks wrong for sitting at the front of the bus? Take your Law and shove it. Have a nice day!
I live basically next door to this place. Not once have I heard my neighbours complain about this place or the crowd. I go in there to get my gormet coffee sometimes. It is a really nice place, whether you are having a toke or not. The environment is amazing, and I could only cross my fingers that more establishments pop up like this in the future (although this raid casts doubts on that). I love the people I meet inside Kindred, always someone new, and always someone with a story! If this place doesn't open back up I am seriously going to miss the social impact it had on the immediate community.
It is obvious why the Kindred was busted: they were selling cannabis resin laced foods and drinks. And not cheaply either. The profit margins realized were the same had they been selling marijuana on the street. All of this product was supplied by a network of compassion club members, medical user's (with federal medical marijuana exemptions) grow ops; basically the surplus - whatever the legitimate users could not consume.
The blind eye of law enforcement with regard to compassion clubs was exploited for one of the simplest human urges of all: greed.
"I have only this to reference:
Number of Alcohol-related deaths per year: 100,000+
Number of Tobacco-related deaths per year: 400,000+
Number of Marijuana-related deaths per year: 0."
Don't be naive. Sure nobody has died of a pot related overdose but keep in mind there have been PLENTY of people that have smoked weed and driven under the influence only to end up dead. I really hate when people use that 0 people have died from pot statistic, it's ridiculous.
Other then that being said, I'm really sad that kindred closed down. I was planning to go this weekend. :(
go ahead. be disappointed. Canada is not perfect, but despite your arguments of loving Wal-mart and McDonalds, Canada is leaps and bounds more progressive than you say. change comes over time. it doesn't happen over night. besides, if you don't like it, there's nothing stopping you from leaving.
marajuana is not regulated nearly as much as alcohol. so until everything is completely hammered out in some legislation, the operation of the system is gonna have some wrinkles to iron out. eventually, the system will figure something out. but until then, the law is the law and everyone should abide by them as they've been passed. until they get changed (and you can lobby your MPs if you want to see change) you have to accept them as they are.
saying "Canada is not progressive" is juvenile and untrue. laws don't get changed quickly because it leads to chaos. end of story. if you don't like it, go to any communist country or country run by a military. then you'll understand how horrible life can really be when the laws can get changed and enforced within hours.
@dennisn & @Russell Barth: the government doesn't say that you can't eat food with marijuana. they said you can't sell it.
also, regardless of whether or not you "feel" a law is unconstitutional, until it is struck down by the courts, it is NOT unconstitutional and IS the law. hence, as a citizen of Canada, you must abide by it. if everyone took your view of individually deeming a law unconstitutional and then "taking initiative" we'd end up with anarchy.
Although I suport legalization, I've always hated this statistic as it is obviously misleading, if even remotely true.
Number of Alcohol-related deaths per year: 100,000+
Number of Tobacco-related deaths per year: 400,000+
Number of Marijuana-related deaths per year: 0.
Think about it .. smoking is smoking. Yes, MJ is not full of chemicals (usually) but it's still cancer causing and toxic.
"it is NOT unconstitutional and IS the law. hence, as a citizen of Canada, you must abide by it. if everyone took your view of individually deeming a law unconstitutional and then "taking initiative" we'd end up with anarchy."
People are breaking unjust laws daily and I don't see anarchy, do you? If you are equating smoking weed with murder and rape then you are seriously living under a rock.
I thought people were more intelligent than this, obviously not. Do us all a favour and move to the States, we don't need people like you here.
@clueless - so you're saying that there's no need to follow the process with regards to determining whether or not a law is unconstitutional? people should just do whatever they feel is right? what are these unjust laws that you think people are breaking daily - and that this behaviour is acceptable or encouraged?
i don't have anything against people smoking weed. and i think with lobbying and revision of laws, eventually it'll be properly legislated. i don't think complete disregard for process is the way to go. i'm not equating weed with rape and murder. but it's a matter of all these little acts that will snowball to the tipping point.
but seeing as how you think personal attacks make you smarter or better, perhaps i shouldn't have bothered to consider your comments.
Yes addict, people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting others. Was this cafe forcing spacecakes down peoples throats when they came in?
No, of course not.
Now as far as being properly legislated, is that time when all of a sudden it's ok? Was it ok for blacks to be forced to sit on the back of the bus 50 years ago but it's not ok now?
People are trying to get these laws passed but unfortunately our politicians are spineless and continue to be influenced by the States.
So it's a little frustrating for a marijuana smoker to listen to you tell us to keep our chin up, everything will be ok and weed will be legalized.
You're whole "snowball theory" is laughable.
Did they break the law? Yes.
Is the law unjust therefore canceling itself out? Yes.
Get used to it, people are going to grow, sell, buy, and use weed. No law is going to stop that. So it's up to people like you to decide if they want their tax dollars and police resources going towards some War on Drugs crusade. And if you do, and continue to hide behind the "it's the law" argument, then expect people to call you out on it.
/rant
@clueless - well if you think Canada is such an oppresive place, why don't you go somewhere that's less oppressive? Netherlands has pretty lax laws on weed.
change takes time. i agree that politicians take too long to do things, but that's the system we have. abolishing it in one fell swoop because a cafe got busted is hardly the way to deal with it.
vindication for racial equality did not ultimately come to fruition because people broke the law. peaceful protest, lobbying, and revision of the bill is how it got fixed. disregard for the law is not how things work in Canada.
it's not "my snowball theory." that's research conducted by experts in the field of socio-politics and socio-economics. you might want to figure out the difference between "your" and "you're".
the law hasn't been deemed unjust by the courts. that's the point. if a bunch of people felt that murder and rape laws were unjust and just decided to break the law then by your argument, that's okay. or a less extreme example would be shoplifting. it doesn't really hurt anyone directly. even if most people disagree, until it has gone through the courts, whether or not a law is unjust is a subjective opinion, as opposed to an objective definitive.
lynchings got outlawed for this exact reason... because taking the law into your own hands is not an acceptable practice.
the system we have isn't perfect. but it's better than a lot of other places.
Your whole post illustrates why people think Canadians are such pushovers.
We were well on the way to decriminalization until the DEA paid us a visit and put pressure on our law makers not to. YOU'RE pretty naive if you think we have the power to legalize marijuana by peaceful protests and drum circles.
And who are these "so called" experts that did the research that lead them to believe that by legalizing marijuana it would cause a snowball effect?
When was the last time you saw a cocaine march at city hall?
But I guess they're the experts right?
Was this a government study by any chance?
If YOU'RE that gullible you must also believe that by allowing gays to marry we'll eventually allow people to marry their dogs.
I've corrected YOU'RE.
Can you please capitalize after your periods. Thnx!
Your whole post illustrates why people think Canadians are such pushovers.
We were well on the way to decriminalization until the DEA paid us a visit and put pressure on our law makers not to. YOU'RE pretty naive if you think we have the power to legalize marijuana by peaceful protests and drum circles.
And who are these "so called" experts that did the research that lead them to believe that by legalizing marijuana it would cause a snowball effect?
When was the last time you saw a cocaine march at city hall?
But I guess they're the experts right?
Was this a government study by any chance?
If YOU'RE that gullible you must also believe that by allowing gays to marry we'll eventually allow people to marry their dogs.
I've corrected YOU'RE.
Can you please capitalize after your periods. Thnx!
Is marijuana really not a drug anymore?
I do smoke, however I question the argument of marijuana not being a drug these days based on the potency of the pot myself and others around me are smoking. I highly doubt a lot of the strains that are available are 100% pure. I'm no connoisseur; however I pay more for quality... This isn't some outdoor grass being grown in someone's backyard...what sort of additives or growing methods/technologies are being implemented to enhance the potency, putting aside different strain types and their effects. I'm not saying that marijuana falls into the same tier as chemical drugs, however, I am sceptical over how natural or pure plants are grown these days, especially indoor. For example, PURPLE KUSH? Some of these buds are covered in white crystal.
Clueless is spot on, both about the evilness of the law, and it's *obvious* ties to the fascist and racist American DEA.
John and Addict both clearly do not understand the constitution. We DO have (in official legal writing at least), the right to our own lives! This means NECESSARILY the right to grow whatever plants we feel like on our own private properties, to eat whatever plants we feel like on our own private properties, etc! Anybody who disagrees with this is either an idiot and is following other malicious people, or is a malicious person himself who is CLEARLY undermining our constitutional right! (For political or personal gain. Ie. to please the USA, or to increase his paycheck, or to realize his fascist orderly police-state.)
The racist segregation laws of yesteryear were EVIL. People /should/ have broken the law *constantly*. They should not have waited, like pushovers, until the oppressors felt like loosening their evil oppression. The current prohibition laws are *equally evil*. When they finally get abolished, and they will, what should free men think of people like John and Addict, who apparently willingly accepted the evil laws?? They should be punished!--for aiding and abetting the oppressors!--for being complicit in the violation of other people's freedoms!
@clueless - i would never say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to get married. i don't see the problem. in fact, several of my friends are married, same-sex couples. but it's something that got discussed and argued through the proper channels.
so what if internationals think Canadians are pushovers. i didn't realize that Canadians were so weak as to need the approval of others. i actually think it's better that we're constantly negotiating and trying to find a compromise with Quebec instead of having a civil war like they did in America.
and i think lobbying works better than drum circles, but i've never tried the drum circle thing, so i could be wrong.
i didn't say that legalizing marijuana would cause social problems. i was talking about ignoring the instituion of law. i don't have a problem with the legalization of weed. and there is a lot of independent research out there around legal systems and social structures that are not associated with government funding. the government can't afford to fund everything.
i could capitalize after my periods, but since it's not hurting anyone, and there aren't any laws requiring me to do so, then i can apparently do whatever i want.
@dennisn - being a visible minority, it'd be weird for me to say that i think racial segregation laws were valid. they were (and still are) wrong. however, if you really feel oppressed in modern Canadian society, maybe you should try living somewhere else.
i didn't say you didn't have the right to eat whatever you want, smoke whatever you want, or grow whatever you want in your backyard. in fact, i didn't take a side on the issue regarding marijuana. all i'm saying is there need to be some sense of order. i'm not opposed to seeing marijuana decriminalized. but i am opposed to people breaking the law just because they "feel" it's not fair. a free-for-all is not the way to go. even places as progressive as the Netherlands have laws and got to where they are today without people just doing whatever the hell the felt like.
Addict, you're missing the point. People who smoke/grow/sell marijuana ARE obeying the law! Any law that tries to ban it is invalid since it contradicts our original laws. Any such law is ABSURD. And any judge who might not see this *obvious* contradiction should be fired immediately. (If only we actually had a true and valid justice system, that wasn't in bed with politicians.)
*Nobody has the right to stick their heads into my bedroom; to regulate and police what happens in my bedroom!* (And Kindred Cafe is just such a private bedroom!)
I really don't understand why you (Addict) don't take a side on the issue--why you don't see the blatant injustice, and why you are not in fact vomiting in a disgusted rage. You certainly would be full of rage if the government made f*cking your wife illegal--maybe some studies suggest sex leads to out-of-control testosterone that leads to violence and death, or maybe sex leads to laziness and apathy toward civic duties and is thus a problem for society. The only reason you are not outraged is because it doesn't affect you. You are sitting idly and comfortably by, as your fellow neighbours are being oppressed--their businesses shut down, maybe their money or property is forced away from them, maybe they are imprisoned. And your only advice is, "tough luck; it doesn't affect me; move to another country".
*Frustration*
@dennisn - i wouldn't say that i wasn't upset about it. nor would i say that i sit idly and comfortably as my fellow neighbours are being oppressed. when i see injustice inflicted upon those around me, i help them within the confines of the law. the system was put in place such that if there are deficiencies, it can be challenged.
i do have an opinion on the matter and i have taken a side. but i was more disturbed by calls for "just breaking the law" than i was by the unfairness or oppression of marijuana smokers.
when my neighbour had skunk problems and their landlord did not care to do anything to help them, and was taking advantage of the fact that they did not speak English, i went with my neighbour to complain to the appropriate authorities. i translated for them, and ultimately forced the landlord to do what was their responsibility. i did not have the skunks trapped and shipped to the landlord's house and say "see what it feels like?" it would've been faster and cheaper for me to do it. i wouldn't have had to take time off work. but that's not the right way to handle the situation.
there's nothing wrong with getting mad. people should get mad and should do something about injustice. but breaking the laws is not the way to do it. the laws aren't unilaterally passed in Canada. people had to agree upon it (hence the 3 readings of bills and all that jazz before a bill becomes law). people were for and against it at the time the bill was introduced, and if there weren't more people for it, it would never have been passed. that doesn't mean there's no possible way it might be violating the constitution. perhaps at the time it was passed, society was too conservative, or narrow minded, or whatever. through education, lobbying, and talking to people, you breed acceptance and society changes it's views. the judicial system follows accordingly. it took over a hundred years for the government of Canada to apologize for imposing a head tax on Chinese immigrants. it took just as long for the government of Canada to admit the atrocities of residential schools... and only now are they starting to atone for them. things move a lot faster now, so i'm not saying that it'll take 100 years for them to legalize marijuana. but i don't think breaking the law is the way to go. gay marriages became legal without breaking the law and it didn't take 100 years.
and my advice is not "tough luck; it doesn't affect me; move to another country." that was my response to being told to do you "all a favour and move to the States, we don't need people like you here." it seems backwards to tell someone who's okay with the existing system to go elsewhere while the minority who isn't okay with the system stay. it's not that i think they should, but in terms of logistics, it's easier for the minority to move.
Mike: Which 2008 court decision? Was this Court of Justice or Superior Court? Was this in Ontario? Do you have a CANLII cite?
Otherwise, folks, take into account that Mike may be a police disinformation agent. Cannabis possession is indeed presently legal in Ontario.
Addict, you are completely avoiding the issue. In the first place, you have to think for yourself, understand your rights, and realize that prohibiting grown and responsible adults from eating whatever they want is unconstitutional! At this point, although it may be "safer" to obey the oppressive and illegal law, it is by no means the right thing to do. As I mentioned earlier, the law says it's OK! Politics and recent contradictory "laws" say it's wrong.
On the other hand, if you dare to suggest that /other/ people should have the right to force their arbitrary dietary preferences on you, than you are truly a confused man.
So make up your mind!
@dennisn - the law doesn't say you can't eat whatever you want.
and i did not avoid the issue. i just believe that breaking the law because you don't like it is a bigger problem.
That's EXACTLY what the prohibition laws are saying. I want to eat and smoke this arbitrary plant on my (or Kindred Cafe's) personal property. But I am *forcefully* and *violently* being prevented from doing so, due to police f*ckers who willingly turn a blind eye to the constitution and their own morals, for a paycheck.
For the last time, the only people breaking the law were the police! And any judges or politicians who may have sided with the prohibition! All of these people should be imprisoned for violating innocent individual's lives, and be forced to pay for all the economic losses they inflicted.
People aren't breaking this absurd law simply because they "don't like it"!! They are breaking it because IT IS PATENTLY WRONG!!
Do you support obeying UNJUST laws, for the sake of peace and order or whatever? Would you have obeyed the racial segregation laws of the past??
Those of you comparing the closing of the Kindred to Rosa Parks should be disgusted with yourself. You call the DEA fascist and racist, but you're belittling an entire movement which was about far more than whether you can sell cannibis-laced food or not. Seriously, consider your arguments before you post on here; people may take you a little bit more seriously if you do so.
Dan-
Disgusted with myself?
You're missing the whole point of the comparison.
This isn't just about Kindred or the right to lace food with cannabis.
You obviously aren't looking at the big picture here.
Maybe when you get off your high horse and stop twisting my posts around I'll take what you have to say seriously.
I can dumb down the next comparison if you're the type that gets offended easily...
@Dennisn - i think it's safe to say that we don't agree. you're deliberately misinterpreting the things i've said and you're choosing to stay angry.
i likely would've had to obey the racial segregation laws of the past because being a visible minority, i would've been beaten or lynched if i did not. it would not have been until the laws were changed that i would've been able to do anything without the risk of being killed. this question might be better posed to a white person who would not have run the same risk for breathing too loudly or sneezing in the wrong direction. that's the difference between then and now. back then, people were horribly beaten or killed by unjust laws. nowadays, people are inconvenienced.
i don't believe chaos begets order from injustice. and i don't believe the compounding more wrongs upon a wrong will make everything right.
"and i don't believe the compounding more wrongs upon a wrong will make everything right."
I can't keep arguing with such linear thinkers.
Smoking weed is NOT WRONG!
Secondly, and again, if you think we have the power to change the law in Canada by lobbying you have not researched this issue enough. At the root we are up against the United States Federal Government, not our own. The same government that ignores state laws, and prosecutes medicinal marijuana users. How would you like it if some cop with an authority complex broke into your house and arrested you for having aspirin. But instead of aspirin pretend you have cancer, and marijuana was the only thing that helped you to put down food, or help ease pain.
I could bombard you with many theories as to why the American Government won't legalize it, some include the pressure of the pharmaceutical companies/drug lords. But it won't matter because you only think in black and white. You think it's wrong to do something unless 51% of the population thinks it's ok.
If you can't think outside the box and realize that there are other factors to this other than it just coming down to a simple vote I don't know what else to tell you.
Here's some info if anyone's interested...http://www.leap.cc
@clueless - i am not saying that smoking weed is wrong. i've said several times that i don't believe smoking weed is wrong.
@clueless - the law does not say that smoking weed is illegal. it says possession for the intent of sale without licence (or something fancy like that).
just like in Singapore... chewing gum is not illegal, but selling it is.
wow! awesome amount of comments about the cannabis issue. mostly positive. potent marijuana can be grown to be just that. through tender love and care + organic food + strain selection = amazing weed. true. there are hundred of marijuana types. the only issue with Kindred Cafe is that they didn't pay toker taxes. a Cannabis Control Board of Ontario would solve our problems.
Addict, for all intents and purposes, it DOES say marijuana is completely illegal. How is one supposed to possess it if buying and selling it is illegal?? The point is, and you casually mention and then completely ignore it, is that as responsible adults, we ALREADY have the right to eat buy and sell marijuana to any other responsible adult! Stop trying to appease your childish vision of a functioning justice and political system, and stand by your convictions.
Mernagh, a CCBO would be a baby step in the right direction, but still pretty oppressive.
@dennisn - i'm pretty much done with all this name calling. you can't get one comment posted without resorting to it.
if marijuana was completely illegal, it would be treated like heroine and cocaine. it's not.
the responsible adults that are not the problem... BUT not everyone involved in the buying, selling, and consuming of marijuana is a responsible adult. booze and cigarettes have the exact same problems and deregulating them won't fix it.
we're just going around in circles. i've consistently stood by my convictions regarding the issues despite you accusing me of having done otherwise. we have different views on the ability for the Canadian legal system and the individual right to marijuana access to coexist. end of story.
Addict, you are a confused and dangerous person. What right do YOU have to tell ME how or when to smoke marijuana? *NONE WHATSOEVER*
It is frightening to realize that our fellow, perhaps well-intentioned neighbours can be the source of perhaps all of our oppression. All it takes is casual thoughtless and irrational small decisions such as your own, that on their own can easily be ignored as foolish, but taken on mass have the power to seriously fuck up other people's lives. (Kindred Cafe's livelihood, my freedom, others' imprisonment, etc.)
Good job Addict et al for fucking up our lives!
Here is some information that a lot of idiots don't know. The only reason why marijuana is illegal is because the government cannot tax it. Who has ever heard of somebody overdosing on marijuana? you dont! you just pass out, thats it. if marijuana was to be legalized, the government could not tax it because everybody would grow it inside and outside and the government cannot control everything. alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana. Can you drive drunk? no! can you drive high? yes! you don't hallucinate when you are on marijuana but you do when you are on alcohol. People don't understand it's a plant, it just grows like that. Not like alcohol where you have to make it in a factory. The reason why alcohol is legal is because nobody tries to make it at home. It takes too much work and might even explode your house. So the only reason the cops raided this place was to take all their shit and fine all these dudes so the government can get paid. The government and the legal system are the true "gangsters" of the society. The "legit" gangsters that make a shit load from everything and everybody that they can get their hands on
To all of the people who say "if you dun liek marrywanna lawws than move to pl@ces wear marrywanna is legul Liek in neetherlands and amstoredamn." That is a horrible argument. Its unfair that if I want to light a joint I have to spend 100,000$ to move to another Continent and restart my life while in the process leaving everyone I know and love from my home.
Like everyone else I lost a lot of money because of this recession. And there isn't much I can do to get it legalized. Im stuck waiting for my government to do the right thing and legalize this harmless drug. So until than ill be smoking in alleys buying drugs from murderous psychopaths because I cant go to a lounge and buy a 5 bucks worth of weed and chill around with friends without worrying about police breaking into my home and fining me 5 Grand and put me in jail for 3 years.
If the government cannot meet the needs of the people, Than the people of that nation must revolt. However the only revolting I can do is hitting a bong.
all you people are retarded... laws are made by a society... get with the times... and get fucking high... i bet most of you saying marijuana is bad you obviously haven't smoked it... and thats why its my job as a citizen of this country to break unjust laws.... thank you
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