Accepting Jesus Into Public School

Merging the two schools has the potential of giving good a bone to the public school parents who don't want their children indoctrinated with Catholic doctrine, but want French language education. This is especially true in non-GTA areas where sometimes the only French immersion program is administered by the Catholic school system.

It is long past due that the publicly funded Catholic system be disbanded (or merged, as you so tolerantly suggest).

Should we also fund a parallel Wiccan system? Or Sikh? Shall I continue? To argue for a continuation of the Catholic public school system is akin to arguing for segregation based upon favorite colours. I like green, btw. Go Trees!

As Sam Harris maintains, perhaps we should introduce classes on astrology, and greek mythology, that treat them with the same deference we allow Catholics. Cuz Leos are, like, real risk takers. And virgos are, like, quitters.

The fact is that until religion is treated as every other aspect of our society, and subjected to evidence based reasoning, we will continue to allow our zealots to claim to know the thoughts of 'the creator', and as such those thoughts might be viewed as beyond reproach, which they are not.

God speaks to me too, and he says we should stop listening to those who argue on his behalf. Really. I saw the light. Now take your shirt off. And your bra.

Having to know a former administrator in the Toronto Catholic District School Board, I feel I need to defend the system's public approach to education. We became a publicly funded body because we met all the necessary criteria, AND because there was a large demand to our approach of education. Our approach is not "We're Catholic and We're Proud!" but it incorporates ethic and moral into our daily lives. It also allows students to question their religions and identities and gives students a greater mind for questioning life through our teachings.

Basically, we don't stand in a classroom teaching students how to read the Bible. Students take 4 religion courses in their entire study at the Board--Grade 9: analysis and interpreting the Gospels and an insight into morality and ethics, Grade 10: morality and the law, where students create their own belief systems and opinions about many various issues surrounding morality and the ethics (no reference is made to religious texts), Grade 11: World Religions, where students learn about and interpret various texts of the major religions around the world, Grade 12: Philosophy, split into two parts of existence and existentialism, and religion, where students are urged to question every aspect of their religion and the methodology behind religion. The curriculum has been structured by the Board to create greater understanding of morality and ethic, not Catholic faith. Outside of the curriculum, there are other opportunities for students involving this aspect, including Chaplaincy.

The biggest note about this is that the Catholic school boards of Ontario consist of more than 40% of students in the Ontario public system, 2% of whom are enrolled in French Catholic schools.

I think perhaps it would be a better name if the TCDSB was still considered the Separate school board, partly because we do not limit school admission to Catholic students.

This whole article is rather ignorant of the TCDSB.

"It is funding a divisive society, ignorant and afraid of the beliefs of it's different members"

This statement is absurd. In a Catholic school I learned about accepting other religions and tolerance.

"Perhaps then, we could all hold hands and accept the one true doctrine - Science, into our hearts."

To take science as a system of beliefs is just a bad idea. Science provides rational explanation and theory which is used to improve our lives, but ultimately creates an infinite number of new questions and problems. It is limited to human perception, bias. Scientific fact will change with time and place. Read into epistemology.

I love it when people recommend reading as a argument within a debste.

Secular education can encompass ethics and morals. Just of the "you'll go to jail" rather than "you'll go to hell" type.

A lot of people say Catholic education is better because of school ethos etc. That's not a good thing about catholicism (and I speak as a Catholic educated person) it's a bad thing about -some- public schools and we have to fix that.

The reported court case that non-Catholic parents are suing to have their religious schools granted Ontario funding for disability education on grounds of discriminating towards one religion could blow this wide open but it will take a constitutional amendment (as has been done in other provinces like QC) to remove the obligation on Ontario to fund the catholic system.

At the end of the day, its isn't going to kill the government to fully fund religious schools. However, strict rules of what makes a religous school and the fact that they MUST follow the Ontario Curriculum will make if difficult for those schools to decide if they even want to attempt to get funding if the Gov't does decide.

Merging the 2 Boards is not going to help. In reality, it is almost a Mike Harris approach. You remember those days...and it will be much worse if this happen. You'll see many schools closing, teachers laid off, students different faiths/beliefs clashing, parents upset that now closed neighbourhood school is oing to be a Wal-Mart etc etc

Every Separate school board in Ontario does not limit school admission to Catholic students. I went to a Catholic HS where there was Jews, Mormons, Atheist, those who wanted to go to a CHS instead of a Public one, and many others who felt that a Separate School would offer a better place for ethic and moral teachings into students daily lives. That is something the public schools struggle with, some worse then others, and in reality should be where these people should be focusing instead of bringing back the Mike the Knife attitude.

Jerrold- the final statement of this article is rather problematic because it's a different debate all together, one that evidently the author was not aware of. The article would have been better without it.

Sean - I'd prefer to see two public schools in a town offering differing kinds of education and offering true choice to parents rather than one public one catholic offering pretty much the same education. I think if the Govt of Ontario pledged to take sold off catholic schools into the public system with the aim of broadening the scope of our education system taxpayers could see the point of it.

Purely for the interest of levity:

"I went to a Catholic HS where there was Jews, Mormons, Atheist, those who wanted to go to a CHS instead of a Public one, and many others who felt that a Separate School would offer a better place for ethic and moral teachings into students daily lives."

That sentence is an indictment of the quality of education received, methinks.

Excuse me brokenengine, but if you only had a few mins to type a response and then go back to make a living you might write a little messy in grammer. :-P

Mark, the Catholic/Separte ones do offer a differance in terms of the moral and ethical teachings, something the Public system is having trouble with day in and day out. The Catholic board HAS TO follow the Ont. Gov't Ontario Curriculum. The same will happen if public funding is extended to other reglious schools.

Hence the levity preface.

grammar

Its really terrible that the Catholic schools get public funding. There is simply no justification for it.

Its terrible shootings seem to happen in public schools hmm wonder why?

Dan - all the more reason we need to focus on the public system rather than write it off. After what happened at James Cardinal McGuigan it's clear bad things can happen at TCDSB schools too.

The Catholic elementary schools are guaranteed funding in our Constitution and enrolment is strictly for Catholics (with minor exceptions). The CHS's were offered funding by Davis in the 1980's on condition they have open enrolment. The non-Catholics who attend are usually looking for a faith-based school and can't afford one in their faith!

Plese remember: all parents pay education taxes. Why should only Catholic parents get their taxes applied to their children's education?

John Tory's proposal is to include other faiths in the public school system. This solve the issues of fairness and accountability. Isn't it in Ontario's best interest to ensure as many children as possible are involved in our public education system and are following the Ontario curriculum?

Gila - the Constitution was changed for Quebec to close their Catholic boards. It can be changed for Ontario.

While perhaps intending to be meerly glib), this post comes across as not only ignorant to Catholic school system but people of faith in general: "quirky religious palls?".

The suggestion that public schools promotes tolerance is one of the worst myths the system perpertrates. Where is the evidence? Where are the studies? This kinda of statement is not only didactic, it is utopian and far removed from lived experience. I was raised in a minority Christian religion in a public school dominated by non-Catholic Christians, and was constantly bullied and attacked for my faith-based conscious decisions, the difference of which to that of the other students and TEACHERS faith were so ridiculously miniscule. While my example is merely anecdotely, I know my experience is not a solitary one. Oh, and little Johnny atheist, can be just as much as a bully as any kid from a faith-based background (having been suckerpunched in the face while a kid screams "Where's your God now, huh?" kinda deflates the fuzzy warm atheist stereotype for me). (don't feel sorry for me, i got over all that when i was 29 :) )

In fact, my parents considered at one point to pull me out of the public school system and put me in Catholic school where the academic standards were higher and the tolerance policies more evident and clearly spelled out. Having a moral or ethical backbone that it is wrong to attack, physically or verbally, people of other faiths, creeds, skin colours, etc. and to truly have respect for others different from you by making personal investigations into other people's lives, not just tolerating them, and adhereing to those standards is what prevents "a divisive society, ignorant and afraid of the beliefs of it's different members"--not just taking funding away from one group and pooling it into another.

Oh, and 58% of the people are not most, but will let that slide and assume it's because you are an artie and not because the public school system failed you. ;)

Carrie

your experience is exactly why we need one public system. If people are told - go to the catholic school and they will protect you, well they can do that but what does that do for the public system? nothing. The public system needs root and branch reform and improvement and providing a denominated outlet valve is not going to change anything.

Meanwhile I see on CBC.ca and the Star there are interesting events going on at C W Jeffreys. The Star has previously highlighted local schools that are going to hell in a handcart but the local elected trustee doesn't know jack about it or at least claim they don't. Maybe it's time to abolish elected trustees and make it a city commission like TTC - could it be worse?

I don't see why we can't reform the public school system and keep the Catholic system in the short term. The existence of the dichotomy in school boards does not perpetrate the problem. There is no evidence outlined anywhere in this article or any article that suggests that. Meanwhile, we already have a quality system with the Catholic boards. The only thing to do is to work with the public board.

As someone who went through the Catholic school system during the extension of full funding in the 1980s, I can appreciate both sides of the argument. Yes, the extension of full funding to the Catholic school board is a constitutional matter (with all the baggage that entails), since it was a condition of Ontario's entry into Confederation. It was to ensure the rights of the minority Catholic population - Ontario was predominantly Protestant. Obviously, it's not 1867 any more and we now have a multi-ethnic, multi-faith society. But then, as now, the solution would have to recognize that minority rights must be protected. Does that mean every faith and belief system should have its own school board to be fair? We don't need to go to those lengths, but we should ensure that all faiths have an opportunity to express themselves without imposing their beliefs on non-believers.

We did have a religion credit in the Catholic system in Grade 9 ie the credit that teaches Catholic doctrine and beliefs, and I'm pretty sure this is a credit that non-Catholic students in the system can opt out of. We also had an elective World Religions credit that fulfilled the 'senior social sciences' credit for the high school diploma then. I should add the course also explored the ideas of atheism, humanism and agnosticism, which I'm sure many people didn't think 'could' be discussed in a Catholic school! If a Catholic school like mine freely allowed the teaching of other beliefs as part of the curriculum, then why can't such a course be just as successful in the public school board? Not all persons of faith are automatically intolerant and ignorant due to their beliefs, nor would their schools automatically foster intolerance just because they are faith-based. (That would be called a stereotype, would it not?)

If they are considering citizenship courses in high school to encourage students to be civic-minded, why not give students more opportunities in the curriculum to learn to be more tolerant by learning about faiths and beliefs of their neighbours? As long as the intent is education and raising awareness, not indoctrination, I can't see how there could be a problem in incorporating such courses as part of the public school curriculum. The board may be secular in nature, but many of its students are not.

Maybe the constitutional angle may have created a perception of entitlement because separate school adherents seem to have privileges not extended to other faith-based schools. If we were to have only one, public school system for all in the future, then we need to ensure that all faiths in that system (including Catholics - assuming there would be only one school system) have equal opportunity to exercise their freedom to practise what they have a right under the Charter to believe. That would truly be a "public" school system because it would also be multi-faith, reflecting the population it serves. If it is handled objectively, a future public school board can be inclusive of all faiths without being perceived as a board that is exclusive of religion.

If you need religion to help you maintain proper ethics and morals then you at your core are not an ethical or moral person. These traits come from common sense and early guidance which for no reason needs to be religious.
Or rather, if you need school or religion, or religious schooling, to further instill decent ethics and morals in you, then your parents have failed you.
In terms of teachings, all publically funded schools should be non-religious, however a course involving -all- religions, ranging from ancient mythology to recent religions, all taught side-by-side with equal weighting, -should- be included. I don't think religion should be necessarily encouraged (as too often it as used as an excuse, or a crutch), but I don't think it should be ignored. The religions of modern day will be just as historically relevant as those of the past, as they're all useful insight into the human condition.