TTC Token Machine Shortcoming

I don't think bills should be accepted because it would mean replacing all the machines...

They don't take fives because the machine is probably not equipped to stock toonies for change, and the loonies would be depleted too fast. Also, since the five is the lowest bill denomination, they circulate the fastest and are likely to be the most beat up bills and more prone to jamming the machine.

The token machines are, in fact, unable to handle five dollar bills for technical reasons.

KC: they take bills, just not $5 bills.

Tom: if they can accept toonies, they can likely spit them out too.

thickslab: what technical reasons?

Not necessarily. Coins deposited by customers might go directly into a vault, while coins dispensed for change probably come from a hopper and/or cassette system. I'd guess that these machines probably do not have the ability to recycle customer coins as change.

I could be wrong about the TTC machines, but I've done quite a bit of fare collection work for other agencies (I'm a transportation engineer) so I have some experience with transit payment systems.

Tom: thanks for your input. If the machines are antiquated and incapable of dispensing $2 coins, perhaps the reason why the don't accept $5 bills is in fact concern over the quick depletion of loonies in the change cassette.

Hear Hear!

This has been a complaint of mine for a decade. Every other transit system in world allows you to pay with any form of currency. Most allow you purchase a debit-like card that can be used across the system. None (to my knowledge) require you to enter unmanned stations with a tiny silver disk that weighs less than a feather and is inevitably lost.

With a small capital investment, the TTC could move to such a system described above and do away with its outdated collector system -- and its attendent legion of overpaid and surly workers -- altogether. But this is what you get when your transit system is run by a committee of city politicians with zero business sense and experience.

"...every time I buy tokens I seem to lose them or occasionally (and inadvertently, and rather stupidly) spend them as dimes. Go ahead and laugh."

Spend a dollar and buy a token holder; most convenience stores in the downtown core have them. They look like plastic 'clips' that hold about 8 tokens--4 per side.

Never buy tickets, because they can't be used in automated entrances/turnstiles. Never buy just 1 token, because buying tokens in bulk only costs $2.10 per ride ($8.40/4 = $18.90/9 = $2.10).

Thinking ahead will save you both time and money.

These machines are useless and an embarrassment to the city. Why does the TTC insist on collecting fares the same way they did in 1924? Can we at least get something circa 1980s, perish the thought that we be able to buy tickets and passes with a debit card.

At least post on the TTC website where there are stores that allow you to use debit cards and what they sell.

Here's how it should be done:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrocard

If they took credit cards like the parking machines it would be nice too - but then Green P seems to end up beating TTC every time in this "transit friendly" city...

Um, except Green P has some pretty weird rules. For instance, if I want to park in their lot behind my house overnight, I have to get up at 6am to go put $2 in the machine. And it's $3.50 from 7pm until 6am. They don't provide a 24 hr fee. I have gone out there at 6:10am, and I have a ticket on my windshield, even though I clearly show a payment reciept. In other words, the guy gets there at 6:01, just waiting to bust the people who can't crawl out of bed on time. And the ticket is $10-12 (And rarely the same amount twice!)., which is twice what it would cost to park there for 24hrs. Is Green P trying to train people to get up at 6am or something? Because i can't see this policy making sense in any other way.

"Never buy tickets, because they can't be used in automated entrances/turnstiles."

I used to think this, but tokens have that problem of being mistaken for dimes, and a token holder doesn't fit in a wallet. Also, token machines are becoming more and more scarce(has anyone else noticed this?). So, I buy tickets, and I have figured out the manned entrances, so I don't have to worry about tokens at all.

Well, Mark, when the commissioners are a committee of an incompetent city council, which happen to be in the back pocket of an incompetent mayor, such is life.

And "Getwiththetimes", the point of a transit service is to be convenient. (Yes, I know we live in Toronto, but work with me here) There's only so much planning one can do, if one doesn't realize that they don't have tokens or whatever. ANY option should be readily available to purchase whatever form of fare media is required. That the TTC hasn't realized this is further proof that Mayor Miller's Transit City will probably go down in flames, as many of these Commissioners can't organize their way out of a paper bag.

Sorry about the triple comment, I've had some serious issues with commenting on BlogTO lately...

GetWithTheTimes: I don't want one more thing to carry around (a token clip). I don't use the automated turnstiles all that often, nor do I purchase single rides. I purchase tickets in bulk and keep them in my wallet (i.e. I do plan ahead).

Our apologies for the slowdowns and multiple comments on the blog recently.... we're working on it!

That's bullshit. Fuck the TTC. Arseholes.

Commish = Howard Moscoe?

The probable reason is that there are a limited number of patterns for bills that can be recognized in the bill acceptors built into the token machines. The acceptors have a limited number of different patterns they can recognize, and the mint keeps changing the bill designs. There are now so many variations on the $10 and $20 bills that the acceptors can't recognize them PLUS all the variations on the $5 dollar bills. So they drop the lowest denomination and keep the more frequently used higher denominations.

If I remember correctly, before the $5 was redesigned, token machines would accept the five dollar bill, but when it was redesigned, I guess the TTC would have had to retrofit all the machines to recognize the five as a five. I assume putting a sticker with a five dollar bill and a red line through it on all the machines turned out to be a lot cheaper. But of course, way back then, you could almost get 3 rides for 5 bucks...

"In 2001, the Bank introduced the new $10 note from the Canadian Journey series, followed by the $5 note in 2002. The Bank issued the new $100 bill in March, the $20 note in September, and the $50 note in November of 2004. As part of its ongoing efforts to improve the security of Canadian bank notes, the Bank of Canada issued a $10 note with upgraded security features on 18 May 2005. The Bank will also be issuing an upgraded $5 note on 15 November 2006."

source: Bank of Canada.

Hmmm. So the token machines are able to read the new $10 (2001) and $20 (2004) but not the $5 (2002)???

Maybe after the $5 is upgraded in November, the token machines will be upgraded?

Re. "The token machines are, in fact, unable to handle five dollar bills for technical reasons." - this is not accurate. A few years ago when the price of a single ride was around $1.70 (maybe slightly more, I can't remember exactly), you were able to purchase 3 tokens for $5 and get a dime back (so slightly discounted rate). You would actually insert the $5 bill to receive your tokens. So, the machines can handle the $5 bills, they are just now set up not to accept them.

well. 5 dollar bills are the most circulated, and usu as a result, the most worn = tough to read in a machine. so then the machines get jammed. and then also the counterfeight issue, i think 5$ bills are the most counterfeighted ones.

a year ago or so, these machines accepted 5$ bills but that was gotten rid of for my reasons listed above.

:(

i;ve lost a few 5$ bills in those machines. a number is listed to call and complain. i called. they said they would send someone out to fix the jam, and if my bill was recovered, i would be reiumbursed.

i've never been reiumberesed.

:(

The people who actually run the system generally know what they are doing, the boobs that pretend to run the system (the commissoners) don't.

I have a friend who works for a company that tried to sell the TTC a card reader based fare system like NYC, at the time the TTC's engineers correct response was that there's no business case for it here, we don't have the same problems with paper currency and fare abuse that they have in the US because of a) Loonies and twonies b) high levels of pass use c)high levels of voluntary pass compliance. Their response at the time was "for the amount you're asking for a card reader system we can buy (can't remember the exact number, a large number >100) new buses.

The province is probably going to force the TTC to install a card based system soon when they force a GTA wide fare system. When that happens just watch for the whinging about how much better and simpler the old system was. For those that think the MTA metrocard system is so peachy just find yourself at the bus stop in the rain with an empty metrocard and two dollar bills, oops, can't ride the bus, metrocards or coins only, no paper money accepted.

i don't understand why the turnstiles can't take tickets... the ones in montreal do. it would speed up traffic jams at the regular turnstiles too.

When there's a long line at a subway collectors booth, and you're holding a ticket... do you wait for the queue or do the skip and squeeze tactic?

This machine clearly illustrates how the transit system operates, with absoltely no common sense. It could give change (but probabily isen't programed to) -- in order to intise you to buy a metropass which is so much less hasstle.
I'm sure the TTC knows that almost everyone passes off the tokens and dimes but they don't care because they have already collected the $$$$. With a metropass you can get access to the subway where there is no operator...you can get on quickly if everyone is in line @ the booth....with tickets its just a pure hastle, because tickets are probabily the most common used transit form of fare.

Cynical, yes I know.

Unfortuntely since the transit system is managed by some thick headed individuals, you'll see absoltely no improvement in service.

I have more of an issue with the dirty, rude unbathed bus drivers. What is that about?

I think the whole TTC payment system is a mess.

Did you know that you can't purchase a metropass using your debit card or credit card at every station? I found that out the other day and was shocked.

They want people to take public trasit but they make it a pain in the ass to actually pay for it. ha ha, what a joke.

Yeah, there are three stations that accept debit/credit, try buying a metropass at Davisville at the beginning of the month, the wait is ridiculous if they haven't sold out yet.

Do they sell out entirely (there are a limited number made), or do they sell out at specific locations (and remain available elsewhere)?

What does the TTC have against the $5? How about the fact that a relatively high number of them in circulation are counterfeits? Why do you think the bank is issuing a new design when the old one is less than 4 years old? Have you noticed over the last little while that 5s are hard to come by and when you do get them they are ratty looking?

It doesnt really upset me that much that I can't pay with a $5, as much as it upsets me that I cannot pay with debit. I live in Mississauga and rarely take the TTC, but when I do need to take it it turns out that I have no change whatsoever. It would be pointless for me to buy tickets since I'm more likely to lose them than use them. Maybe the Go train spoils the people that thake it because I can buy tickets any way I like, and if I so desire I can buy only one. TTC should take a few lessons from GO transit and Mississauga transit. The GO passes that you cancell are EXTREMELY convenient, maybe even more so than the card system used in NYC.

One more reason why l no longer use the TTC. Now l live in York Region, drive my car everywhere, no parking fees, no BS. No one should live in Toronto!!