Morning Brew: Deputy mayor says downtown no place for kids, mysterious powder identified, Microsoft stores coming, art installation torched, and TTC signals

I think the Fords, Mammoliti and Holyday are in a competition for who can say the stupidest thing in one sentence.

Yet they are all still trailing Adam Vaughn

I think the Fords, Mammoliti and Holyday should be the test dummies when the TTC starts running subway trains closer together and in opposite directions on the same stretch of track. They're qualified for the position.

That is such a lame and predictable response. If you want to talk about the dumb stuff that Adam Vaughn has said, we can do that another time, because there's plenty to work with. But it in no way excuses what Holyday said. And while Vaughn should definitely think a bit more before going on record, he doesn't routinely insult large portions of the population, like the Etobicoke delegation do so regularly.

At least Holyday got the location of Downtown right. Most people I talked to this morning agree that King and John is either Downtown or really close to it.

I heard people on the CBC this morning from places like Parkdale and Riverdale that claimed they lived downtown. When the hell was Riverdale part of downtown? Parkdale was developed as a streetcar suburb.

I get the sense that the Deputy Mayor of Toronto doesn't really like the downtown core of... Toronto. Maybe he'd prefer Toronto go the way of some American cities where people only go downtown to work and not live. Unfortunately that model doesn't work and creates wastelands of crime and neglect. Many cities would kill for what Toronto has been able to achieve with its vibrant downtown communities. If Jane Jacobs were alive today, she'd give Doug a big slap and send him to his room.

I agree. I grew up in the suburbs and they were terrible. I couldn't wait to leave and now I happily live in the city and intend to eventually raise a family here. I would never live in the suburbs again, but I don't say other people are wrong to want to live there.

Just another reason for de-amalgamation (I know, I know, it's never gonna happen), suburban and urban living are just completely different and the people have different priorities. A downtown councilor should have no say in a suburban riding they are unfamiliar with, and a suburban councilor should have no say in an urban riding they are unfamiliar with.

see that is where you are wrong, the star was never on his property. Or he would of been charge. Keep spinning mark, keep spinning.

very well put.

So let me get this straight. The place you flee as a hell hole, which contains a former mayor whose opinion you don't like on where to raise children, is where you take your marching orders on the location of downtown Toronto.

Actually Parkdale was originally a small village that was swallowed up by the expanding city of Toronto in the (I think) late 19th century. Back then, yes, it would have qualified as 'suburb'. But it no longer is. It's part of downtown, Downtown West actually. And Riverdale is Downtown East. You really need to better understand the changes in urban landscapes over the course of a century or more of growth.

Who is saying the rest of canada isn't multicultural? I'm just saying that toronto sees itself as a part of the world and the rest of the country is always thinking of its place in canada. The country resents us because we are looking at the bigger picture or as they put it 'the center of the universe'. Thanks for telling me what part of toronto you used to live in but i meant where do you live now? because you laugh at/hate toronto yet here you are on blogto. Keep thinking about us sour grape breath.

Jesus, this is such a stupid argument. I can't even believe we've wasted this much space debating the opinion of Doug Holyday. At the end of the day, the issue is about choice - some people choose to raise their kids away from the city and others would like the option to raise them in the city. The only purpose of that motion was to ensure that choice was available by making the developers build family-sized units - I think its naive to believe that developers would do so without being forced to - left to their own devices they've just squeeze as many units in the space as is humanly possible (more $$$ that way). Remember, developers are in it to sell condos and make a profiot - city building (or social engineering as Holyday called it) is the City's job, which is why we need to force these kinds of changes.

Doug stated his opinion on this issue, which I happen to disagree with, but at the end of the say was on the losing side of the vote, by a mile (27-4).

What I find ridiculous about this "debate" is that there's nothing surprising about what he said - its not as if its a shock that Holyday, Ford and their ilk are not fans of downtown. We've known this from the get go. So who gives a rats ass if Doug wouldn't raise his kids in the city?

Do you really derive your sense of self from what Doug Holyday, an old geezer who still yearns to be mayor of Etobicoke and wishes the 19050's never ended thinks about city living?

As I said, (the village of) Parkdale was developed as a street car suburb, as were other small villages that were all annexed by 1912. That said, Parkdale and Riverdale are still not part of downtown. When we hear someone in Riverdale say I work downtown, we all know they aren't going to Parkdale.

I understand changes in urban landscapes, but it hasn't changed that much yet. But don't take my word for it. The city of Toronto's Downtown East Planning study studied...Jarvis to Sherbourne.

Toronto doesn't hate itself. We're just incredibly critical and love to complain about everything(hello, the Leafs are our hockey team, the Leafs!)...and we hate the suburbs and they hate the downtown (but what healthy city doesn't have that sort of hatred going?).

But we are the centre of the universe!

lol. you are right. there are definitely people who live in toronto who hate it here. It can't be denied. a huge part of those people are the burbs who were forced to be part of toronto but didn't want to be by mike harris. its definitely a tale of two cities. and naturally you are going to get whiners where ever you go. Most people who live downtown love toronto and the ones who don't would complain no matter where they are. its less that they hate toronto and more that they love to complain. Toronto is definitely a part of canada. but we just don't think in terms of canada like the rest of canada does, so the rest of canada thinks of us as the 'center of the universe' but reality is where ever i travel outside of canada people dont really have anything but good things to say about toronto

I hear you, and certainly fossils like Holyday and Ford are definitely a problem. However, my point is that Doug's comment has become this massive issue online as if he is the arbiter of where and how you should raise your kids - THAT's giving him too much power and credibility in my opinion.

Besides, a guy like Holyday isn't going to be persuaded no matter what you do. What needs to happen is for him to be replaced, which as we know is very difficult in Municipal politicals because incumbents usually have a HUGE advantage.

The real issue, I think is that we need term limits on councillors - Councillors who hang around for 20+ years quite frankly have little to offer but stale out of date views of what the city is and should be and they're usually the biggest impediement to change as they also seem to only speak for those constituents who are terrified of change.

In addition they also retain the bad blood of amalgamation which they never wanted and was forced on them. Don't forget, for example, Holyday was mayor of Etobicoke previously and never wanted any part of amalgamating with the rest of the city and he's still bitter about it. A guy like Mammo, on the other hand, just likes the perks of power so he'll sway whichever direction gets him there (hence serving on both Miller and Ford's Executive Committees).

I don't mean to focus on the suburban councillors so much, because there are definitely downtown ones who are past their best before date, but it just seems that there is generally more turnover in the downtown and mid-town wards than there is out in the parts of the city that are futher away from downtown - I guess, where people seem to fear change more.

Ultimately, my point is that until those kinds of councillors are gone, we'll never bridge the suburb/downtown divide that many of them created. Even if they no longer represent a majority of council, their tenure makes them influential. Term limts will ensure that we get new faces and new ideas and do not end up stuck with a Council that is 20 years behind the city it represents.

" I always find it amazing how many suburban Toronto haters spend their time on sites like this. Better start a Blog905 site soon."

But many of these 'suburban Toronto haters' are from Toronto. Like it or not, Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York are part of Toronto. Only DT snobs tell fellow 416ers to start 'Blog905'

..."then why was our mayor pushing so hard to purchase public land in order to build a larger security fence in order to "protect his family" up in Etobicoke North?"

Don't group him with those of us who live north of the 401 - he lives south of Eglinton with the rest of you downtown elites.

Ive been saying the same thing about something left on the tube for years. It feels like Toronto jumped the shark when Moses znaimer sold city to Rogers. Every Toronto channel is owned by the same twats who put up these condos own guys like holyday and ford and what everything privatized so that they can really start digging into everyone's pockets for things the drones take for granted like transit, gas and parks and recs. it's brutal. Intelligence has lost its voice in this city. So frustrating.

You do realize that Toronto never really was like that. As a young child, our family lived in Thistletown/Rexdale. My grandfather worked at Orenda in Malton. I can remember my mother taking my great grandmother, myself, and my grandmother to Eaton's and Simpsons downtown. Of course, once Yorkdale opened, it was a lot closer and more convenient.
I have lived in virtually every sort of environment you can imagine. I counted 13 schools I went to, including 2 kindergarten -and at that I was yanked out of kindergarten in March when we moved to Vancouver.
Suburbs, farms, 31st floor in St. Jamestown, semi-detached, bungalow - lived in them all. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
What disgusts me most about this 'not in my sandbox' mentality on all such blog sites, is this constant harping that everyone must conform. Why exactly is that?
If you feel raising a family in a 800 st ft box, 100 meters in the air, with nary a park in site (because, of course, the 'tower in a park' concept is thoroughly discredited now (rolls eyes) is appropriate, then knock yourself out.
I choose to live downtown as an adult, because at one time it meant driving against traffic. That is no longer true. But my best childhood memories were not in my father's apartment in North York, walking through leafy Willowdale to Fisherville, then Northview Heights, but rather of the 5 acres we once had on King City sideroad that backed onto the Humber. Or the 3 storey home at Dundas/Naniamo in east Vancouver.
As I pick my way through the traffic calming mountains on Heward Ave (because I will do anything to avoid the Queen streetcar) I can't help but notice toddlers playing on their tricycles, scant cm from the curb. The traffic in that area is only going to get worse as Condo Hell moves east. I look at these half falling down shacks that I know go for $500k and up, and I think Victoria Village, O'Connor - almost anywhere has to be better than raising a toddler between Queen and Eastern.
But, hey - that's just me. I'd like my kids to be safe and not run over by a cement mixer, or a crack scout on his bicycle, looking out for cops.
Anyone who doesn't have fond memories of the suburbs and having your own backyard for BBQs or baseball or hide-go-seek, just didn't have imagine growing up.
But I guess video games can be played in a dark, 10X10 bedroom without having to go outside. Ever.

If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that this is none other than Gadfly, posting his old-man neocon bullcrap again! Still talking nonsense as usual, sir?

And yes, I do have 'perspective'-just not YOUR perspective on what makes a city livable or enjoyable. Also, I don't want to live through your eyes-they're suffering from being behind rose-colored glasses, and are now suffering mascular degeneration anyway.

You can't even be consistent in your own complaints. Clearly the clubs and bars that do exist CAN afford those taxes, etc. They were better before because they were underground/illegal? I thought it was because people didn't spend their evenings looking at their phones in the old days, whereas now the DJ is 'playing his heart out' and no one's paying attention (like they really gave a damn before). Make up your mind.