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<title>blogTO Recent Comments: A Look Back at Toronto's Streetcar Debacle</title>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/feed/recentcomments/?13758</link>
<description>Comments recently made in this post on blogTO</description>
<copyright>Copyright 2009</copyright>
<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:01:27 PST</lastBuildDate>
<item>
<title>Jonathan</title>
<description><![CDATA[
"So how much would it cost to buy 204 buses instead?"

Substantially less. Of course, these streetcars have the capacity of more than 2 buses. You would really need to buy about 500 more buses to replace them. That's also 300 extra drivers and dozens of extra maintenance and service people. Also when those buses reach the end of their 12-15 year life span, you'll have to buy another 500, unlike the streetcars which tend to last for decades.

]]>
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<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636742</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636742</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:31:32 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Josh</title>
<description><![CDATA[
I agree Neil. You can't convince us if you don't know basic grammar. Why doesn't blogTO do some editing?

]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636621</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636621</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:41:51 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>bitters</title>
<description><![CDATA[
So how much would it cost to buy 204 buses instead?  Am I the only one that sees the streetcar as a novelty?  I understand it is part of the history/tradition of toronto public transit, but in terms of maintenance cost, user safety, and maintaining traffic flow buses are vastly superior, and they can be modified to use the same overhead electric system that the streetcars use.  

I guess I'm just a little concerned that TTC infrastructure projects are essentially on hold forever, and there are a lot of stations that need work now.  I mean if the money isn't there why are we getting new streetcars when the ones we have, while old, still work?    ]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636349</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636349</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:07:38 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>McD</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Paul,
Get with the real world. Instead of accusing other's of being Miller haters realize that your comments inticate that you are a Miller lover who is just as disconnected from economic realities as yourself. And yes, Miller is so blinded by his vision/arrogance that he has blown $100's of millions in funding by grandstanding  and engaged in the same sort of negative wedge politics used by Harper.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636131</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636131</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:32:54 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>Nic</title>
<description><![CDATA[
oh, hush. ]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636026</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636026</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:19:51 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>j-rock</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Whether or not you agree with the conditions attached to the money, the simple fact is that Miller did not meet them and gave the feds the opportunity to throw it back in his face. There are countless other infrastructure projects which would have easily qualified for the money, and benefit the city.  Yes, the Conservatives dislike Toronto, and the city has certainly suffered as a result, but none of that changes the fact that Miller, either through his arrogance, incompetence, or some unholy combination of the two, continues to be an absolute failure as mayor. We need new streetcars, but there was a better way to go about it that needn't have forced the TTC to now hold off on other necessary upgrades and repairs.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636022</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c636022</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:14:42 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>neil</title>
<description><![CDATA[
"would of"?
"he faces criticism from myself"?
"upkeep its title"?

yikes.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635765</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635765</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:29:07 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>Paul</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Javender, that's a very appealing way to tell the tale if you're a Miller-hater, but it doesn't pass the smell test.  I mean, really, does it seem believeable to you that David Miller sat down and filled out those forms himself, saying "Dammit, no matter what they say, no matter the risk to my political career, I'll fill these out incorrectly and damn the consequences MWAH-HA-HA"?  Does it seem remotely plausible that the biggest city in the country, with theoretically the most to gain from the stimulus program, "got the application wrong" for something worth hundreds of millions of dollars?  As fun as it might be to portray city politicians and staff as some kind of "Keystone Kops" or "3 stooges" operation, it is illogical in the extreme.  Politicians at this level may be self-serving, they may be duplicitous and conniving, but they're not literally idiots. I agree this was a political stunt -- by John Baird -- playing to the Tory base of city-bashers in the suburbs and the sticks who like nothing better than crowing about that "socialist" Miller and how those stuck-up city dwellers got what they deserved.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635751</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635751</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:56:11 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>drew</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Slow news day huh.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635746</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635746</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:33:15 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>jevander</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Paul,

With all due respect, this was a gamble by Miller, he tried to 'twist' stimulus funding to fit his own purposes.  There are literally thousands of other shovel ready projects the Mayor could have used to get funding from the Feds - it was HIM, not anyone else, who chose to apply for streetcar funding that simply didn't meet the criteria.  How was Toronto the ONLY city that got the application wrong??  Mayor Miller made the streetcar annoucement before the city was guranteed any funds - talk all you want about the procurement process, they still went ahead with an annoucement knowing the funds weren't there.  THIS WAS A POLITICAL STUNT!  ]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635738</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635738</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:23:22 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>Paul</title>
<description><![CDATA[
It is absolutely ludicrous to believe that the city's application to the stimulus fund was "brinksmanship", "a gamble", or whatever other perjorative is being applied.  

I have some involvement with government procurement processes, and there is no way that Miller and city staff did not have a TON of back-and-forth with gov't staff regarding the suitability of the application.  The very idea that Miller -- or any mayor -- would "gamble" on hundreds of millions of dollars of essentially "free" money is ridiculous and only a mindless partisan would believe it.  Unfortunately, the Tories decided to screw us and pull the rug out from under the city at the last minute.  If Miller was foolish, it was in trusting a snake like John Baird to do the right thing.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635720</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635720</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:41:32 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>Fleur</title>
<description><![CDATA[
It's not a real photo. They made a mistake by putting Neville Pk on the train, that's all. ]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635716</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635716</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:30:56 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>kit</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Am I the only one who noticed this picture doesn't make any sense. This is the second time I'v seen it and its bothering me.

Tell me what street that is. Now I know your all going to jump and tell me its the south side of Queen between Bay and Younge.....but its not. First of all Neville Park trains is eastbound so it would be on the south tracks not the north. Second of all look down the street and tell me thats the corner of Younge and Queen cause its not. No little lotto shop, with the green trim and red marble.

Wierd piece of photoshopping. If I'm seeing this all wrong please feel free to tell me where this picture is taken?]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635697</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635697</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:03:00 PDT</pubDate>
</item>
<item>
<title>Mike</title>
<description><![CDATA[
I think both Ottawa and Queen's Park were put off by Miller & Giambrone's initiative in striking this deal with Bombardier and advertising how all three tiers of government would be paying for it. Instead of celebrating this investment in Toronto and reaping some political glory, they were put in the awkward position of being told they had to cough up the money, and not doing so would be bad on them. George Smitherman's initial reactions were a little more work safe than John Baird's but equally displeased. 

The lesson is, if you require someone to come out of pocket for you, you'd be better served by making them feel good about it. Everyone's committed to transit funding (funding for new LRT lines demonstrates this), but the way this particular aspect of it was done left a bad taste in their mouths.

I think Miller's proud sentiments are in order, given that we are getting new streetcars and better transit overall at the end of the day, but he has harmed himself politically in the process. But I like a politician who puts the needs of a city above is personal reputation.  ]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635671</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635671</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:46:40 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>Mojo</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Comments like yours is why I read this blog.  Thank you!]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635659</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635659</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:04:23 PDT</pubDate>
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<title>jevander</title>
<description><![CDATA[
You guys are crazy.  David Miller did not fill out the application properly.  The criteria for stimulus funding is for 'shovel ready' projects.  The idea is to get people working immediately in the communities receiving the money.  Ordering streetcars that are made in northern Ontario does not get people in Toronto working.  Programs are established with rules for a reason, to ensure transparency, this was Miller trying to pull a fast one on the Feds, not a kick in the teeth for Toronto.  As a result, Toronto isn't getting any stimulus money yet.


Wake up you guys, this is Miller's fault.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635655</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635655</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:43:35 PDT</pubDate>
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<title>Sean</title>
<description><![CDATA[
The picture of the interior of the new streetcar looks quite narrow.  How on earth does Miller expect us to carry our garbage across town?]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635551</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635551</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:31:47 PDT</pubDate>
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<item>
<title>myron</title>
<description><![CDATA[
Your complaint that the funding should have gone to the new LRT lines instead of the new cars was the same mistake that both the provincial and federal governments have made, which is that the new LRT lines will need, well, LRT vehicles.  The current fleet at 30 years old is falling apart and has reached the intended end of its lifespan.  Do you drive a 30 year old car?  Then you'd know what getting parts are like.  Try and get parts for 30 year old streetcars.  Further to that - and what the gripe with upper levels of government is about - is that the deal with Bombardier contained an option for the additional vehicles needed for these new lines.  When the Ontario liberals initially announced funding for the Scarborough LRT, but then wouldn't fund the original streetcar deal (which would be necessary in order to get the option for the Transit City order) that was disingenuous.  I will, however, agree that the subway repair program needs urgent attention.  There's no point in pointing fingers and rehashing the history of inadequate funding for the TTC by all levels of government.  We're in this predicament, let's find ways to get out of it.  Oh, and John Baird is a douche.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635525</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635525</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:20:18 PDT</pubDate>
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<title>mikeb</title>
<description><![CDATA[
The federal Conservatives and provincial Liberals are putting the same percentage of money up for the Sheppard LRT as this proposed KW line (~1/3 and ~2/3 respectively).  Both lines get their federal money from the same Build Canada Fund, not the Stimulus Program.  The speed at which the local Conservative MP announced support for the KW line smells of political opportunism, but it's likely they would have supported the line as proposed regardless of the competetiveness of the ridings.  I doubt the Tories are doing the Sheppard LRT so they can shore up support in all the Scarborough ridings they won last election.

Miller engaged in brinkmanship when he submitted only one (unqualified) project for the Stimulus fund.  It was a calculated policitcal gamble that blew up in his face.  It angers me that both the feds and city couldn't work something out beforehand, but it was up to the city to submit something that quailfied.   Baird's intemperate comments not only showed his bad temperament, but they were also indicative of his desire to fund Toronto-based projects.

BTW Facebook User, last I heard Mayor Lastman's front door is now at St Clair.  Not that it matters, I have yet to see him on the subway.]]>
</description>
<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635508</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635508</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:47:14 PDT</pubDate>
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<title>Eric S. Smith</title>
<description><![CDATA[
It's not just that the Conservatives have little hope of gaining seats in Toronto. The other problem is that there's nobody in caucus to say, "Give money to my riding."  This stimulus scheme is a game of Calvinball, but Toronto has no players on the field to shout out advantageous rules.

Meanwhile, the city paying for two thirds of the streetcar order won't starve widows and orphans.  It's being covered by deferral of planned projects that aren't even close to being under way, and Baird swears up and down that he wants to give the city money for something, just not streetcars.  Will federal money end up paying for some of the projects whose future funding is being used to account for the streetcar purchase?  Shh!

(Tangentially to this, why is it that some people insist that a rebuild of the crumbling Gardiner is an imporatant necessity, while replacement of crumbling streetcars is a commie plot to raise taxes?)]]>
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<link>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635504</link>
<guid>http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/07/a_look_back_at_torontos_streetcar_debacle/#c635504</guid>
<category>Toronto, City</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:32:05 PDT</pubDate>
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