Environment
Toronto Company Has Electric Car But Our Government Won't Let Them Sell It
Update: See ZENN's update on Canadian availability.
A Toronto-based company, ZENN Motors, has taken the lead in the production of electric cars. Don't believe me? If you too thought the dream of the electric car was dead after watching the excellent (albeit depressing) documentary Who Killer the Electric Car it's time to think different. I took the above photo of the ZENN earlier today outside the Isabel Bader Theatre while attending the ideaCity 2007 conference. This is the real deal friends. The car is slick and I want one. It seemed that everyone else who saw the car today wants one too.
The problem, however, is that we can't buy one. Although the car is now available for sale in 48 US States, no Canadian government has approved it for sale in Canada. In fact, Queens Park refused to even entertain the idea until Al Gore cornered Dalton McGuinty earlier this year and insisted that he make it happen.
The sad fact is although the Premier recently unveiled a number of initiatives to reduce greenhouse gases, he failed to take the lead on the electric car issue, wiltering under pressure (as every other provincial government has done) to the powerful petroleum lobby.
When you consider that motor vehicles contribute somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2/3 of our greenhouse gases, this is simply unacceptable. There is huge pent-up demand for these types of vehicles. Enviro-conscious consumers (growing by the numbers every day) are desperate for a cost-effective, realistic solution to help them curb vehicle emissions and the ZENN electric car, at a retail price of approximately $14,000 has the potential to be it.
Unlike hybrid-vehicles, the ZENN electric car eliminates the need for petroleum completely and outside of high-end, impossible to get models like the Tesla Roadster is the best solution on the market. And from a Toronto-company to-boot! And if that's still not good enough consider the noise reduction that could result if electric cars were widely adopted. These vehicles are essentially silent.
Here's the pitch I found on the company's web site:
The ZENN, a Zero-Emission, No Noise, and 100% electric vehicle travels at a regulated maximum speed of 40 km/hr and provides a range of roughly 60 kilometers on a single charge. In addition to remarkably low operating costs (energy equivalency of .96L/100Km or 245 MPG), using a ZENN in place of a conventional car can eliminate over 6 tons of CO2 from the atmosphere each year.
Some may balk at the fact that the car only goes a max of 40k. But it's important to realize this isn't a shortcoming of the technology. In fact, the ZENN could go a lot faster, but the speed is "regulated" by the government to ensure that it's not widely adopted by consumers. Why? Because that's the way the petroleum lobby wants it. (I wish I could make this stuff up but unfortunately that's the way our world works)
Despite that, there may still be a silver lining. During a morning session today at IdeaCity ZENN Motor Company Founder and CEO Ian Clifford hinted that Al Gore confronting Dalton McGuinty resulted in huge progress and they expect the ZENN could be approved for sale in Ontario before the end of the year. Looking forward to 2008, the company is hard at work on a new model that will come equipped with an even better battery and other significant improvements.
That's not to say that the existing battery or model is deficient by any means. There are over 100 of these cars on the road in the US and it continues to rack up awards. The photo above shows just how easy the charging process is. The car takes a regular plug that simply plugs in to a regular wall socket. Every charge will add only about 35 cents to the average electricity bill so given the high price at the gas pumps these days, the ZENN not only presents obvious environmental benefits but economic ones as well.
This video below covers this in some detail and will give you an even better idea of what the car is like:
For more reading, check ZENN's web site which has lots of links to previous media coverage about their electric car.
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<i>Although the car is now available for sale in 48 US States, no Canadian government has approved it for sale in Canada. In fact, Queens Park refused to even entertain the idea...</i>
Please tell us why it hasn't been approved. Safety? Crashworthiness? Because the company hasn't applied to the relevant regulators? Is auto regulation Federal or Provincial? i would have thought that Transport Canada would handle such things, not Queen's Park.
<i>The sad fact is although the Premier recently unveiled a number of initiatives to reduce greenhouse gases, he failed to take the lead on the electric car issue, wiltering under pressure (as every other provincial government has done) to the powerful petroleum lobby.</i>
Again, is this substantiated? I certainly don't expect Dalton to live up to any of his promises, but I blame plain old political laziness, not a petroleum conspiracy.
<i>The ZENN, a Zero-Emission</i>
As noted, this is not true. The emissions are just shifted from the tailpipe to the smokestack of a nearby coal burning electric plant. TANSTAAFL.
<i>In fact, the ZENN could go a lot faster, but the speed is "regulated" by the government to ensure that it's not widely adopted by consumers.</i>
WTF? Substantiate please. Either the government won't allow it on the road, or the government won't allow it to go over 40kmh. You can't have both.
<i>The car takes a regular plug that simply plugs in to a regular wall socket. Every charge will add only about 35 cents </i>
I remain highly skeptical of this claim. Has anyone done an independent assessment?
Really, this may be the best thing since sliced bread, but a lot of what's written here reads like snake oil.
As far as your comments, here are my answers:
1. Federally the car is approved but it needs to now go though provincial approval. I heard that this had no traction until Al Gore talked to McGuinty.
2. The fact is he hasn't taken the lead on electic cars. Call it laziness if you want but he clearly hasn't done squat and he could have.
3. Don't even try to argue that the electric car isn't more environmentally friendly than the internal combustion engine or hybrids.
4. I do want to have both b/c that's a reality. From what I understand they can only apply for approval under a certain class of cars, and right now the government is saying that class is not the same as a Smart Car even though the electric car is bigger.
5. 35 cents is what I heard. Feel free to do a background check.
One site explains "The Zenn is classified as a "neighborhood electric vehicle" which means that it is only permitted to drive on roads with a posted speed limit of 35 mph or less. This classification is to permit Golf cart type vehicles limited access to roads. "
The specifics of regulation in Canada do seem to lie with the province, with these things treated as something a little more than golf cart.
So I'm guessing that they designed a low speed vehicle in order to slip in with less regulation that a regular automobile. Best guess is that they probably don't meet Federal crash safety minimums.
One more question: can our power grid take much extra load?
much of the electricity here in ontario is generated from coal. which is definitely not zero emission.
either way i'd like to see the substantiating information. if the data show lower total emissions i'm all for this trend.
theory as one could imagine. There are several reason for putting a governor on an electric car - the usual reason is to meet the regs in which it operates - as a low speed vehicle (which this is classified as in order to be able to operate in many places) means, guess what? THAT IT IS A LOW SPEED VEHICLE. DUH! With those few batteries, I guarantee you that the "top speed" won't allow you to go on any highway.
This vehicle is basically a golf cart which will have very limited usefulness. The claim that it will make an appreciable difference in emissions is pure BS. As to operating expenses, electrics with advanced batteries cost a LOT of money to operate - just ask any EV-1 driver who had to pay $30,000 plus every five years for new batteries. I suspect, however, that this car uses antique lead acid batteries, circa 1900. Most such batteries (basically open cell golf cart batteries) are classified as hazardous materials and cannot be shipped by air. Save yourself a lot of headaches and money and wait until a viable plug-in goes into production. These cars are virtually useless and are totally impractical niche cars that can't take you much of anywhere.
It won't be much slower, won't emit anything (save the envionmental burden of the extra calories you consume, if you consume more), and put you in better health. Or at anything from 1% to 30%, get a cheap or excellent bike and suck-up the weather.
I'm as excited as anyone about the day we all zip around sans internal combustion engines, but this car is really nothing more than a large golf cart. Wild conspiracy theories won't help us deal with the very real problem that is climate change. As the oil dwindles and the price goes up (with or without a carbon tax, but hopefully with) market forces will lead more and more resources to be put into developing better batteries at lower costs.
Electric cars (prob in the form of hydrogen fuel cells) are the future.. this is not it.
If you like the planet, push for green tech. but also efficiency (e.g. insulation and transit) and CO2 sequestration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_sink
We don't have time for economies and the species to evolve into virtue.
i.e. It's a liability thing
Base power usually occurs in the middle of the night, so if you can add load at that time you smooth out the demand curve and can use more nuke and less thermal so if you make sure EVs are only charged during off peak hours they may not have a carbon impact at all. OTOH plug it in at 10AM on a hot summer day and it carbonriffic.
Batteries are the achillies heel of EVs, the technology is improving massively, I gather that there will be some big leaps in this area over the next couple years. Reality is a huge percentage of the energy consumed by an EV is just to move the batteries around.
The reason hydrogen is interesting as a fuel is that it's easy to make by fractioning water, it's storable and portable and much more energy dense than a battery and when the energy is extracted the process is clean.
Have a look at the Phoenix Motor Cars stuff, today you can only buy them for fleets but a consumer model will come out in California next year.
"hydrogen... when the energy is extracted the process is clean." Sure, when it is extracted. However, unless you have Iceland's cheap geothermal potential, there are huge fuel requirements, carbon or nuclear, to create much of it in a storable form.
"use more nuke and less thermal so if you make sure EVs are only charged during off peak hours they may not have a carbon impact at all." True, but nuclear power is, to say the least, not unproblematic.
The input energy isn't limited to carbon and nuke though, one of the issues with wind and solar is unreliable/inconvienent timing, but if you can "make hay when the sun shines" and that changes the economics and makes these approaches more practical.
Hey can someone tell me why this is not a better option than an electric car? It sounds too good to be true. I suppose it does take electricity to compress the air in the first place. But the car itself looks more efficient than either electric or hybrid, and runs much faster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor
Business 2.0 Interview here:
http://www.zenncars.com/media/zennvideo10.html
Also, for those of you who think that electric cars should be relegated to the golf cart category, are you familiar with the Tesla Roadster?
http://www.teslamotors.com/
Ontario Power generation's Annual Report states Ontario gets its electricity from the following:
39% - Unregulated ? Fossil-Fuelled
30% - Regulated ? Nuclear
16% - Unregulated ? Hydroelectric
15% - Regulated ? Hydroelectric
http://www.opg.com/pdf/annual%20reports/annual%20report%202006.pdf
Next step, putting solar panels on the car.
1. I've driven the car, its fine for city driving..
2. Oil vs coal... your power plants are operating and spewing polution with or WITHOUT this car. You don't just flip a switch and turn off a power plant. They're not going to have to build more plants because people are charging their electric cars at night.
This is a fine neighborhood car, it may not meet all of your needs but it is a good first step towards a cleaner life.
the internal combustion engine in fact is very efficient - problem is they way they are manufactured. an engine is most efficient at WOT (wide open throttle) however vehicles only ever use 20% of this efficency, plus there are gas/diesel engines in Europe which do get 100K per 1Liter. Emmisions on gas cars can be reduced to ZERO or near zero. At a car show in Europe many yrs ago a car was shown, a probe was put in the exhaust pipe and the meter went down, when it came out the meter went up, this means that the air/emmisions leaving the vehicle was cleaner than the air in the room, it actually cleans/filters the air, Volvo also recently showed a truck that cleans the air it sucks in. What is this great fantastic technology, well its simply a second catalytic converter put on the vehicle. When E-testing hit ontario, many ppl who knew about the advantages of a second cat installed them and their vehicles passed with amazingly low numbers, the government tried to outlaw the use of a second cat. Farmers in Flamboro grow 2 acres of corn for the sole purpose of removing its old and fermenting it into alcohol with the aid of $50 worth of scrap metal/tubing (a moonshine distiller) and run their farm equipment and road vehicles off of it. Their vehicles were tested in Hamilton and the government recalled all those vehicles cuz they thought something illegal was being done, well they found out the cars ran off of ethanol which gave the cars near zero emmissions across the board, they then tried to force the vehicle owners to use gaoline instead of their home brewed fuel and to go re-test the cars/trucks.
every house is heated by a gas furnace, what about it's pollution emmissions, do you have a catalytic converter/scrubber on yer house?
My point is this - we've had the tech a long time ago to make virtually everything zero/near zero emmissioned
Um, seriously, are you actually in Toronto? My local bus is standing-room only even at *midnight*. The Spadina streetcar has no room by the time it reaches the station at *any* time of day. Where are these empty TTC vehicles?
I'd love one of these electric cars. Half of this country is already wired for block heaters in public & private parking lots anyways, which would make them easy to recharge anywhere. It seems, however, that to make them attractive and useful, they would need to take off the maximum speed cap, so they can fully compete with gas-guzzlers.
I watched a PBS special on how our wonderful two contries derive it
sadly from oil
yes it easily is derived from water thru electrolisis but they don't do it
why???
I don't know
I try not to believe in conspirisies but sadly it looks like oil companies do have a say in both Canadian and US governments
McGuinty and Gore--now there's a recipe for hope! We'll be getting a handle on pollution problems just about the time Gore moves out of his ridiculous mansion into a modest cabin. Al Gore hairshirts, anyone?
With todays technological level, we can power a cellphone or digital camera with a lithium-ion battery roughly the volume of a pack of matches; we can create a lith-ion battery that will power a laptop for 2 hours, and has roughly the volume of a paperback book; both can be used for years with little or no problems (I have a four year old laptop, that I have used virually every day, and the battery life is still 75% of what it was).
I also have a flashlight that, although I have never timed it, works a good while if you shake it like a bottle of juice (not my orginal simile, but cleaner language) for about 10 secs. My sister has a flashlight that runs completely off a magnetoscope built into it (just turn the crank like an old pencil sharpener).
My grandfather has a barn where the lights are run solely off of a small windmill, and the shower in the barn is heated and pumped by a combination of a solar panel and the windmill (one is just a back up of the other).
I have a power inverter in my car that allows me to power my laptop off of it pretty much indefinately (I have never used it for more than 4 hours in a row, but I have never noticed any power loss to the battery).
Near my house, the city is doing extensive repair work on a bridge, and has two solar powered street lights set to help organize traffic, as one of the two lanes is completely blocked off, and they run 24-7.
I have looked into solar energy enough to know that I can cover most of my electrical power requirements for between $3000 to $6000. This car, which costs according to the little video, about $14000, and about $0.35 to fully charge, could actually save me gas money, and noticably reduce my hydro costs, for an addition $3000 to $6000.\
For about $20000, this combination could save me over $50 a month on hydro, and another $120 a week on gas (for the car). At that rate, saying only $500 dollars a month is saved, 40 months, less than 4 years, which is roughly the cost of an decent new car now, the car would cover its own costs and then some, perhaps as much as twice over, depending on how long the car loan was, and the cars actual life span, including any repairs necessary, and that is just using the technology that is in it now.
What happens if it takes off, and becomes a common place vehicle enough so that many improvements, like (and this is where my long winded opening comes in) lith-ion batteries, which are more cost efficient, and more powerful, pound for pound, than lead-based batteries, or as cars get faster, wind-powered rechargers, which may not necessarily charge the battery, but will offset the electrical costs, increasing the distance travel-able. Add a solar panel to the roof of the car to add a continuous recharger during the day, or an extra unit that can sit in the trunk, that can be popped out when parked, that will recharge while you aren't driving, and your distance travelable gets increased again. Need a jump-start? a unit roughly the size of a cord caddy called a magnetoscope, can create enough energy to watch an average 27 inch TV, so why not start a car. A unit, using foot-power, like an exercycle, could be made to turn the energy you use exercising into electricity.
Toss in thermal voltaics into the mix. A fireplace, which a some people use in colder climates to heat their homes, can be used to power a house, or just their cars. These aren't emmission-free, but as they are already being used for heat, why not add electricity into the mix. Last winter, I went on a fishing trip with my father, uncles, and grandfather, and the cabin we rented had a generator for electricity, and a fireplace for cooking and heating, as neither electrical lines nor power lines were available. It is not that much of a stretch to tie the two together.
If electric cars become widely available, the number of resources, like gasoline, that are used becomes substantially less, and the average cost of living for someone using electricity, becomes less, as the number of possible sources of electricity increases.
The point of this whole statement... there is a conspiracy to keep people dependant on petroleum. A completely electrical society would not need petroleum, except to fly (and that is only until they come up with smaller more efficient storage cells), and that is one of the governments main sources of income, through both taxes, from us (the users), and the the petroleum companies (the makers), and through bribes (from the petroleum companies to keep them in business).
And also, think about this. If all you had to do to fill up your tank when you run out of 'gas' was pop in another battery, and the battery was 4-times the size of a laptop battery, and took 8 hours to charge (4 to get to 80% of max power), how many spare batteries could you keep, in a storage area the size of a gas tank?
This is a profit-driven economy. 25 years ago a desktop computer was for corporate use only, being rediculously expensive, and had little in the way of functionality; laptops did not exist; cellphones did not exist.
10-15 years ago laptops start making an appearance; ridiculously expensive but portable (compared only to a desktop, still twice the size of present day laptops); cellphones are still in cars, and perhaps 1 in 10 has a desktop computer.
Today, 1 in 3 has a desktop computer (I have 4), 1 in 6 has a laptop (I have 2), and 2 of 3 have a cellphone (I have 3, but only one is actually active).
I could buy a Vista-ready computer for $350 CAD (Bell Canada was virtually giving them away if you sign a 3-year contract, a Vista-ready laptop for $450, and a cellphone is free with a 3-year contract. That means you can own all 3 for less than $1000 dollars, with a couple of contracts (they may not be the best, but you can have them.
10 years from now, you could be running your entire life without the need for an electric company or gas company (for both house and car) if people start switching their mind sets, and remove their mental limitations now. Which kind of person are you?
If you think of how the internal combustion engine has completly reshaped our world in the last 80 years then we will start to get a hint of how difficult it is for the electric car; our whole socity and culture world over is based on the power of the engine, without it we would have nothing no machines to build dams pave roads build tunnels take us camping or watersking or to take us on holiday to Barbados no food no supermarkets no IPods no keyboards or computers... NOTHING. Because the internal combustion has got us all this in some large way. None of this would be possible with horse and cart..
Of course without it we would hav a beautiful un polluted world with most of the worlds wild spaces country side still as it were a 100 years ago lakes full of clean fish etc etc.
Lastly remember the millions of people that will be put out of work if all of a sudden in five years there was a significant electric car population, the massive manufacturing and service market will be destroyed even your neighbourhood oil change facility will lay off staff not to mention the vast layoffs in the manufauturing of offshoot industries we will nee less grease oil and oil filters, engine valves and timing belts I suppose the tire industry wont suffer though.
All this being said I wish I had the knowledge and help to turn my little Mazda pickup into an electric vehicle today anybody know of someone doing this kind of work??
$30,000 EVI batteries? I think you mean $3000.
If we evolved in electric cars since the 1900s, we would think it would be insane to take on petroleum-based autos today. Liability for battery use? As opposed to what?, a highly toxic, combustible liquid and poisonous oils and coolants that need constant disposal, a noisy engine with 20-50X the number of moving parts that break, constantly.
In 2007, we can't even imagine a world without the constant rumbling of engines, and that lovely brown haze over Toronto leading to ever-increasing asthma in our kids and emphysema in elderly.
Electric cars can be made, and have been made, that could solve the transportation needs of about 75% of us. Yes, even if that electricity is 100% coal-based, it would be cleaner, and it would stop our money from flowing out of the country, and being distributed among middlemen. (The coal burning industry refuses to adopt methods to trap C02 emissions because it cuts into profits, but emissions could be 1/100th of today).
Electric cars would last a long, long time -bad for industry. They require little/no maintenance -bad for business. They run on an established grid -bad for distributors, importers, resellers, etc. . The use energy only, bad for petroleum refiners (which, by the way, use a tremendous amount of electricity, but that isn't counted by the pro-oil supporters).
Switching to electric would mean a completely different mindset for the GTA and the suburbs -it would mean that you could not any longer define your status by your car, even though most of those expensive car 'owners' can barely afford to lease their cars, barely. "lease" is now used instead of the real word: rent. Autos are the second biggest financial burden of people in the GTA after houses.
Mcguinty, like all Premieres, has subsidized the auto industry in Ontario to the tune of $1B in grants. This industry does not even want to provide us with vehicles that were more efficient in the 1980s, we all NEED 300hp, 18mpg engines to drive 60km/hr in traffic on the QEW.
Will the electric car be popular, no. We can't even use electric battery lawn mowers, even though they are cheaper, quieter, safer, more convenient, last longer and don't pollute (yes, noise is pollution). Even if lithium polymer batteries become super-cheap, no way will the current corrupt oil industry and governments allow them to be used -this is the same industry that has no issues about starting actual tax-funded wars and killing millions, for oil. Think gas cars are cheaper? Factor in the war costs.
Of course, what will likely happen is that history will repeat itself. While Ontario governments will continue to subsidize auto makers producing basically more versions of SUVs with different names ('crossover'-it's a f-ing SUV!), with ZERO R&D spending, companies in other countries will spend money in real R&D and come to market with inexpensive, easy to use electric cars that will put local industries out of business. It's happened to almost every industry over and over again, remember, Canada used to make TVs.
The Zenn is a very low-tech golf cart, 40km/hr is too slow to be safe, and 60km is a poor range. The California electrics of the 90s easily went to 120km/hr and a 60km range, on lead-acid. Someone could build a lithium electric without much R&D to run 120km/hr and 100km easily -this would solve the typical daily commutes of 80% of people.
The other problem with electrics is that in high volume, typical of a sedan, they would be hard pressed to figure out how to charge more than $10,000. Currently, they have people brain-washed into thinking their $60,000 car is actually 'worth' $60,000, while in reality, most people owe more on a car than it is worth.
Electrics-bad for industry, government, only good for consumers and quality of life. Since when have the needs of consumers and quality of life won over industry???
Watch "Who Killed the Electric Car", it is mind opening.
ZENN, can make a car that would provide ample speed and range to allow Barrie to commute via electric cars however, the companies and government will not allow it.
I'd buy one today if the Rav4 EV was still available; there is a video on YouTube all should watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0pjyJyGbI&;mode=related&search=%22CHEVY%20Volt%22%20RAV4-EV%20EV1%20Lutz%20Wagoner%20Plug-in%20hybrid
BUT don't think for a moment that this or any of the other "NEV"s are remotely as safe as, say, an Echo. They just are not. Notice, WINDSHIELD WIPERS ARE AN OPTION?
You can look up the standards for NEVs with a little work on the Transport Canada website. Vehicle standards are federal. You'll be quite suprised at how little the standards covered. The Fed's developed these standards for NEVs to work in gated communities, NOT to mix with regular traffic. Now the makers want to sell them to mix with regular traiffic to sell more of them (and make more money). They are squawking and using "environmental" aregument to increase sales.
I personally think it unlikely that an accident at 40 km/h in most NEVs, with another "normal" vehicle also doing 40 km/h would even be survivable. Its something you'd walk away from in an Echo.
"Who's to say methamphetamine is bad? Have you ever done it? Where's your evidence?"
"How about psychosis?"
"Those people are weak, cant handle the speed. You smell of snake oil!".
The negative: The car looks like a toy. Yes aesthetics are important. If you're going to build something make it suitable for the purpose. Don't build a glorified golf cart and try to market it as a car.
Safety is important. Think about how many auto accidents happen every day. Would you want your kids riding in the passenger seat of a toy on the highway? The featured car does not have the required crash resistance in the door and side panels nor the required bumpers to be regulated for road use. It is not designed for road use. Let's face it; it's a glorified golf cart.
40 KMH is too slow. 60 KM range is fine for a parking lot. You need a vehicle to be practical if you hope to have a market for it.
This car was featured not once but twice in a local paper. Apparently the Delta BC company making the cars could not turn a profit and sold the molds and everything to a guy from Pakistan. 12 containers were loaded up and shipped to Pakistan where labour is cheap and there may be a better market elsewhere like Europe.
The Positive: Electric vehicles are cleaner to operate period. Even as it has been said if you don't have the most environmentally friendly power production, the fact is the power will still be produced with or without the electric car on the road. So in that sense the electric car is 100% eco-friendly because it is one less polluting gas burning car on the road.
It is extremely cheap to run an electric vehicle. I'm not sure about the 35 cents stated above, but it doesn't sound far off.
Most of our power grids are supplied from clean sources such as Hydro. The ones that are from dirtier sources can be cleaned up. It's one power plant as opposed to regulating a million cars spewing out exhaust.
Electric cars will happen. It's only a matter of time. The oil company strangle hold is probably more than just conspiracy theory.
Hydrogen is not exactly a clean energy. Fuel cells were hyped to be the way of the future but have since fallen off. The energy required to convert water to hydrogen is high. The other source is to get it from fossil fuels.
now the 40km per hour is a bit low...I wonder if this company should lock horns with Cycclone ( a magnetic engine manufacturer ) that would make for the ultimate vehicle and with magnets put into the picture...maybe technology can get us off the ground eventually
naah , couldnt be.
Declan
35 cents to a coal plant for 60 km's is better than 10 bucks for 60 km's to the gas industry. Plus they have to burn gas shipping the gas. And I'm sure that a 35 cent power charge creates less coal plant emmisions than burning 3 gallons of gasoline to go 60 kms.
The new Smart cars will run on gas...no conspiracy, eh?
WE NEED THESE CARS NOW NOT IN 10 YEARS THERE WILL BE NO ATMOSPHERE TO SAVE BY THEN!
GO MAKE SOME NOISE CANADA STOP TAKING THE CRAP ,WE ARE IN A DEMOCRACY REMEMBER!
PROTEST FOR A DAY, A WEEK WHATEVER IT TAKES STOP BUYING GASOLINE AND SEE IF WE DON'T GET RESULTS!
IT'S TIME TO START A REVOLUTION!
We have to realize that the gvt is in "conflict of interest" with itself when it comes to policies such as this.
Why would they shoot themselves in the foot?
The gas tax is the biggest cash cow the gvt has ever come up with.
We all know the oil companies made a record profit of somewhere in the area of 60 Billion Dollars, and they only get a pitance of the price we pay at the pumps.
We've all heard them wine about how they only get pennies a litre so just imagine how much profit the gvt makes on a daily basis when they take away more tha .45 cents on every litre and they have no capital investment. They do absolutely nothing for that money.What they make is pure profit...........and they're addicted to it. So don't ask those crooks in Ottawa to work in your interest. They're working hand-in-hand with the other crooks in the oil business. I can't wait for the day when there's no more oil!!!
wake up and smell the java please..
does a motorcycle pass any crash tests? how about my neighbour with the quad racer that is street legal.
Crash tests have nothing to do with this. Making a vehicle of any sort street legal is a documented process. However, all existing legislature is overlooked with electric vehicles and electric vehicles only - where in Canada, it gets differed to the Government to decide - not the established legislation - I wonder why that would be?
as for the power grid, yes, it is run on some coal power and other inefficent power supplies. This ultimately needs to be addresses. However, anyone can buy an electric car, and with the money they save in the 1st year, can equip their house with solar panels and utilize that energy to power up their car - thereby being as Carbon free as possible...
if you really want to understand what is preventing this technology from going to market, follow the money - ask yourself why you can safety and make street legal ANY vehicle powered by gas by following the basic vehicle safety legislation that already exists, but, cant do so with a vehicle powered by electricity...
then it should be fine in the city..(few streets are more then 60kph limit) The extra light on the back tells other drivers near it that it is a electric car with minimal speed.. (and the police if the car is on a road it shouldn't be on)
this should solve the problems with the Ontario government, and get them on Ontario roads until the EEstor tech comes to play... then they can be treated like any other car...
(I sure hope that EEstor is all they claim...)
Max (p.s. thumbs up )
Even though an electric car is using whatever kinda of electricity it pollutes I believe it is 1/16 the amount of a gasoline powered car. Down side is they do not work, or a serious reduced battery life in very cold climates such as Canada unless you can leave it parked in a heated garage when not in use for commuting. Operating costs are somwhere in the penny per km range.
Battery technology with lead acid batterys is the same place it was 110 years ago when the first electric cars like the Baker Electric. The newer batterys like in the Tesla provide 450 kms between charges, about 3.5 hours to charge top speed of 230 km/hour.
Here is a novel idea if you are interested in electric veichles look online. You can build one that will travel 130 km/hour, with a range of 130 kms in optimum driving conditions for around 8 thousand dollars.
but
1. there rae better batteries out there. like the mentioned above tesla.. as well as teh batteries mentioned in "Who killed the electric car"
2. I still think we are all forgetting about one thing.. what do we do with millions of old dead batteries? do you hvae any information on how they are cleaned up. or reused or recycled.. if these were recyclable .. that would make my day!! if however they are going to be another environmental disaster, then hasvent we traded one disaster for another?
3. the speed is unreasonably slow. Unless you are a villager.. and driving downtown where the speed cause of lights and traffic never goes beyond 10 km anyways.. your pretty much screwed.. i mean they are acting like its a victory.. and the oil lobyists are wining.. if htey have successfully forced the development of this car down to a really nice golf cart.
4. I d like to see some solar panels on this car.. wind capturing.. and a spare emergency battery that can be pluged in. people want a transportatin solution.. not just a gimick car thats only good for specific types of trips..
5. while i want to be excited about this car.. i feel i cant.. the oil companies still have too much power. and people are still too obsessed with (greed, money, ability to travel on conntry side that never happens.not to mention status seeking people.. what they need to do is make a ultra sexy super expensive version so rich snoby personality vacuous status-through-material-wealth seeking people can go crazy about it.. give one to paris Hillbilly and maybe all teh copy cat barbies will copy her and people can actually breath in La.
Hers hoping for the best.. in the mean time.. im gonna likely have to settle for crappy hybrid.. :P
Batteries are recycled, the recycler gets paid for doing the job and gets paid for selling the recycled materials, a good business to be in, you get paid on both ends.
Batteries can be much smaller as the new electric car models can be equipped with ultra capacitors (check out ultracapacitors.org) which can be recharged in seconds. If an all electric car is equipped with 4 synchronous motors, one in each wheel (drum breaks), these capacitors can be recharged every time the driver steps on the breaks. This would change the synchronous motors motors into generators and recharge the capacitors for the next power demand by the motors, i.e. when you step on the gas. this way the batteries would only be used for cruising.
I believe that ZENN motors has an agreement with EESTOR (a Texas manufacturer of Ultra Capacitors). This technology makes sense. One post above points out that the body surface of the car could be made of PV panels and trickle charge batteries and capacitors during the day, even on a cloudy day.
I think that there is no government will to produce this technology and it is probably because the government makes so much money on the gas taxes, the higher the cost of gas, the more money the government makes. It's all about them, not the consumer.
I would like to buy and drive one of these cars, but we're not allowed to drive them, what is it going to take to make it happen?
Think about this for a moment, all of our cars will increase in value almost over night and car companies will have no choice but to manufacture cars that we want, cars that run on nothing but ELECTRICITY. Technology to make electric cars run for 300 plus miles has been around for about 15-20 years (YES, I SAID 15 YEARS ! - DO YOUR HOMEWORK !)
We need to start taking this matter seriously & into our own hands by sending a clear message to our spineless elected officials, that our families cant live on being taxed to death and paying $1.30/L for Gas.
Our Law inforcement agencies need to questioned and investigate all public officials that have missed handled every tax dollars. Our tax dollars must spent on the things that matter to us. Laws need to be passed to force car manufactures to deliver technolgies to the market place that will keep us from filling up at any pump.
This Includes the most stupid idea yet, the "Hydrogen Fuel Cell" - Simply another way for oil companies to sell us another fuel at their prices ! PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP AND WAKE UP VERY VERY SOON ! STOP BUYING NEW CARS ! ! !
35km/hr ohhh, sounds fun.
my bike could go faster.
Even though the emissions would technicly be transferred to the "power plant".. how much emissions from the coal plant would it take for four hours of hydro electricity to charge the car? Can you even understand that when trying to substanciate that as a downfall.. you actually make it a plus. The reality is, that in worst case scenario, 8 hours plugged into the wall still emits drasticly less emissions than a fuel dependant vehicle when considering miles per gallon. The ONLY envirnmental hazard that should even be braught up is the batteries. There is the only envirnmental concern, how long can they last and what will be done with them? I personally have heard enough of the same arguement being braught up about the strain that could be braught upon our generation stations, thats idiodic to say the least, using the EV-1 as a test subject, it still would produce 1/3 the greenhouse gasses a regular car would (Excluding the refining of the oil which is pollution enough). <a href="http://www.catalystmagazine.net/shorts--occasionals/environment-shorts/youth-analysis-electric-vs.-gas.html";>http://www.catalystmagazine.net/shorts--occasionals/environment-shorts/youth-analysis-electric-vs.-gas.html<;/a> educate yourself.
You have a good point knippands about the A/C and heat. Especially the heat factor when it comes to Canada. Though I do not have any knowledge on the subject. Sorry. I'd be interested to know. Anybody out there know?
I think the main thing to keep in focus when it comes to the electric car is that really, to start, it will be for short distances and low speeds. And really, why not?
MINDSET..........MINDSET people!
Anyone know of a Model T ford from the '30's that goes 120 km/h? No. And why do we need it to go this speed? When did car change from 'getting from point A to point B' to 'needing to get there as quickly as possible'? It's convenience. And that my good people is the the problem with society. It goes from fast food, to impatience when waiting in a line, to travelling and ignorant driving habits. We all need it NOW, NOW, NOW, and the problem is that nobody ever thought about the cost of making things 'easier' on society.
I was talking to my grandparents this weekend and they were relating their stories about how they view society from when they first started out as a couple to where they are at now. It's laugable to think that some people are concerned on this blog about the way a car 'looks' or it's overall 'speed', when it's only 60 years ago that my grandparents didn't even have a car, a TV, indoor plumbing, a phone, heated water or other luxeries that modern society now afords us.
I have no sympathy for anyone that complains about gas. I live in Toronto & work in Toronto. I barely drive more than 2O km in a day. My Parents live in a small village on the outskirts. They've always worked in this village. Yeah, they only make around $30,000 ea. in income a year. But you know what? Ever since I was a kid my Dad has either walked, ran, or biked to work. My mom drove 1km a day. They've barely spent any income on gas for work purposes their entire lives because they lived close to it. They've only spend on gas for luxery. Wear and tear on their vehicles are minimal due to limited amounts of distance driving. They also leave very comfortably and are very happy. The moral of the story? Ask yourself what you truely need to live and be happy.
I walked an 1hr. last Friday to a store in TO to make a purchase. Could I have driven to the store in 20min? Yes. Could I have taken TTC and made it there in 30-45min? Yes. But I had the time, so really why not? If people in Afica can walk 20 km get Water, why can't I to the same to buy a T-shirt? I didn't spend any money on transport and got lots of physically activity to combat the ol' big belly.
MINDSET!!!! That's all it is.
My buddy laughed at me when I told him about my walk. But I'll be the one laughing while he fills his SUV for $100 bucks, sits in commuter traffic for hours going to and from TO everyday, and recovers for months from his stroke due to his ill health.
Since all the credit crunch/gas hike problem started months ago I've barely felt anything on my pocket book. Mostly because I've tried to be financially and socially responsible. And I didn't try all that hard. I suggest everyone else tries this. From my vantage point, I'm feeling pretty good. What causes me to dispair is the Canadian governement's and people's attitude towards the problem. We should be working to sort these issues out OURSELVES for our OWN country. Not worry about what everyone else is doing. Lead by example, that should be the Canadian way, and we can be a global leader for this. All it takes is a little effort. Time for all of to roll up our sleeves and get to work.
wouldn't wanna be caught in a Cdn. blizzard with one..
get the speed up and the mileage and then you can talk seriously.. otherwise you are a danger to the road..
I might consider one.
Regarding the "conspiracy" claims I think that there is some legitimacy in them as well. Obviously most of the worlds largest global corporations (those being both car companies and oil companies) will see less money made if these cars hit the market. Obviously the oil companies fear 2/3 of their revenues being eaten away by electric cars, and car companies will make less money off of electric cars because they are a simpler vehicle and would not require as much maintenance, etc.
So far as speed and charge time goes, that could have been better developed by now, had more emphasis been put on further developing the electric car. Even as we speak governments and auto companies are putting more emphasis on developing hydrogen fuel cells, which is mainly to serve as a distraction so that they can still continue to reap large profits on gasoline burning cars which their factories are outfitted to produce. The facts about hydrogen are that it is not a source of energy, it is energy storage, meaning that we have to produce energy to conduct water electrolysis and create hydrogen. It only is about 25% efficient so to develop it you would need 4 times as many power generating stations. It is also hard to store and transport.
Most projections are saying that we are either going through peak oil , or are going to be approaching it soon and a hydrogen economy is not going to be very efficient. We need to move towards an electric economy. This is actually the easiest transition for our society to make, and it would also drastic reduce the power and influence of those big nasty oil companies. Electric cars are the way to go!
Our emission producing life style in North America isn't going to be a quick fix; it's going to take changes in many areas of our life. For example, the utility infrastructure will have to be upgraded substantially if everyone changed to electric vehicles. Also, what do we do with the waste batteries from the influx of electric vehicles? Recycling is costly, and you can guess who will be picking up that bill.
The problems are few though, compared to keeping our regular vehicles on the road. Sounds cool bbut looks dumb.
Consumers in the two most heavily populated provinces of Canada seem to be unaware that much of the electricity used in Quebec and Ontario and in fact also sold onwards to New York State etc. is produced by hydro power at Churchill Falls Labrador and James Bay etc.
Not only that but further massive potential will be available now that the 'Lower Churchill' is being developed under the management of Newfoundland-Labrador Hydro! During next few years.
Right now electric power generated in Labrador etc. is transmitted via Quebec and being used in the northern USA. So to argue that all electrcity is coal fired is innacurate in the extreme.
In fact those of us living on the island portion of the province of Newfoundland are not connected to the mainland electricity grid at all and most of the elctricicity used on the island is generated by water power; with the addition of small percentage by the burning of bunker C at the one and only thermal generating plant to meet peak heating requirments during very cold weather. Except at those times the thermal plant is shut down or is just standing by.
Pleas noee the innaccuracy and negativity of 'the burning of coal argument'!
Lets start with few facts, Ontario hydro needs about 30GWattts of electricity at peak period during the day. Since nuclear costs are fixed, mostly the mortgage on the power plant, they use it first, (base load) its covers about 10GWatts(3.3GWatts per station Darlingtone, Pickering and Bruce) next is hydro. Hydro (water falls) produces about 6GWatts, and yes they do turn the falls down at night. The remainder is produced by coal, deisel or purchased from New York state because the cost is directly porpotional to the amount of electricity produced. However Ontario hydro is adding wind turbines and more hydro electric units all the time with the goal of reducing their carbon footprint.
Now to LSV (low speed vehicles) In the US there was a drive to build LSV's to be used in gated communities, ussually retirement homes. These cars were souped up golf carts, doors, windows, CD player etc. They were called NEV's. With the energy crisis some people, me included, thought!! what if everyone in a city used these type of vehicles, we would drive slower to work, although at rush hour probably not much, and there would be no emissions. The problem is that a typical car has to protect the passengers during a collision at highway speeds to be licenced on our roads. AND LSV's cannot pass these tests, no air bags, crumple zones etc.
So in the US they made a separate set of rules for LSV's, simply put, they must have seatbelts, wipers, lights, and heater(defogger).
They are also limited to 25mph and cannot go on roads with speed limits above 25mph. The problem is not being injured by a collision with an LSV it is surviving inside an LSV when you get hit by a Chrysler SUV(light tank). In canada the federal government approved the certification of LSV's last year so manufactures can build LSV's and get them certified by the federal government. However motor vehicle licencing falls to the provinces. BC adopted the licencing of LSV's last year, the tree huggers they are, and Ontario has just done it this month.
The LSV's efficiency is not only due to the electric motor, it is due to its light weight, small size and slower speed. Most of them seat 2 however there are 4 seater models, so they are the perfect communter vehicle.
As to conspiricy, well LSV's will need dealerships around the province for servicing, and they will most likely come from the big automakers so if this idea takes off they will be in like a dirty shirt. As to the oil companies, we use oil for a lot more then just gasoline, actually the tar sands produce heavy crude which is not used to make gasoline.
To fully roll out LSV's we need to think differntly about how we get around our cities. We need to move the large high speed vehicles like trucks, SUV's etc. to intercity roads and highways, leaving it safe for intra-city LSV travel. This way when people are communting around the city they use only LSV's, zero emissions, they travel slower which is safer for pedestrians, and they park smaller, less wasted space for parking lots. When they want to go out of the city we either rent gas cars or take public transit to the next city. It doesn't solve the farmers travel challenges, however, for 95% of the population; safer and cleaner.
For city commuters I think LSV's will be the way of the future, the fall of the big three automakers is a small indication that we as a society recognize that big heavy vehicles are just too hard on the planet, notwithstanding our pocketbooks. SUV's with one person commuting to work are just not sustainable and as we move to smaller cars, not safe. Just this weekend a family was killed in Ottawa when they collided with an SUV. The SUV occupants where not injured, the other smaller car was destroyed and the occupants killed, had they both been in LSV's they would have been going slower and perhaps all would have lived.
Steve
Uh, maybe you could actually find something to support this. This comment doesn't even make sense.
- Not the oil companies.
- Not the car companies.
- Not the government.
Who then? The dumb consumer who wants high speed and long range even though the average speed is 40KM/Hour and the average trip is less than 20KM.
Primary reasons why this technology hasn't been embraced and endorsed is simple. Money, power and greed. There have been countless companies, who concentrate solely on R&D of "efficient" automotive technology, who have invented fabulous means of reducing the cost of operating a motor vehicle (electric and fossil fuel powered).
Well, to make a long story short, money talks. And much of this technology is bought up by companies that are terrified of it. Think of it this way, lets say you invented lipstick. Would you want to develop a lipstick that would last 10 years or 2 months? There wouldn't be much of a profit if you sold one lipstick every 10 years. So, you would likely want to develop and market the lipstick that someone would buy every few months. This isn't news, most companies aren't manufacturing products that would last forever...plain and simple, it isn't profitable.
We have been dependant on oil for too long, the automotive industry is the backbone of much of the worlds economy. A drastic change in these two givens is almost unthinkable to many.
I would love nothing more than to see our highways full of EV's. But it's going to take our voices to make it happen. If we leave it up to our government to decide what is best for us, our country, our environment....the EV will likely never rule our streets and highways.
-actually, that is insulting to true communisom/socialism.
GM went bankrupt, now if only those greedy OIL besterds could just do the same.
Lets not even talk about "Ontario Hydro" -geezus, now there's some greedy scam artists 'fer 'ya eh ?!!!
OMG, I'm a terrorist, and didn't even know it ?
The Electric Vehicle for any large Metropolitam area should have already been mass-produced decades ago !!!
sheeesh.
I am from Republic and learning to read in English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "This not says him that you need your body, and that the track says to be otherwise fired before he reveals you."
Thank :D Chilali.
Sadly, the collective apathy that prevails in our country is the salve that protects the oil industry. We are all held impotent in their shadow. Common sense and good judgement will always be trumped by greed.
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