Tuesday, May 21, 2013Mostly Cloudy 19°C
City

What Toronto stands to gain and lose with the Mirvish-Gehry development

Posted by Chris Bateman / October 2, 2012

Mirvish Gehry TorontoT. S. Eliot said it best. "Between the idea and the reality, between the motion and the act, falls the shadow." That's probably the best way to view yesterday's presentation of David Mirvish and Frank Gehry's King West towers; an idea yet to go through the mill of zoning, city council, and the court of public opinion.

What the pair really gave us was a sketched vision for Toronto's theatre district and the city skyline. What we end up with will, by Gehry's admission, be slightly tweaked and refined over the remainder of the design period.

Imagining for a moment that the buildings are approved entirely as planned, which is a little unlikely, we can take stock of what we will gain and lose as part of the development.

Gehry Mirvish DevelopmentWhat we could gain

  • A bold design.

No doubt about it, Frank Gehry is the real deal when it comes to designing world class, iconic structures. You don't have to look any further than the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao or the recently completed 8 Spruce Street in New York City to understand Gehry's tendency to build city-defining structures.

John Karastamatis from Mirvish Productions says David considers Gehry on par with Antoni Gaudí, the legendary designer of the Sagrada Família in Barcelona and a host of other famous Spanish buildings. Karastamatis says Mirvish admires Gehry's "built to last" sturdiness.

The three proposed towers, ranging in size from 80 to 85 stories, close to the height of First Canadian Place at King and Bay, are designed to be complimentary. As Gehry explained during his presentation, the separate designs are supposed to suggest movement.

  • A new OCAD U campus

The Mirvish+Gehry project (to use it's semi-official working title) will, if approved, be completed in three phases over the next decade or so. The first phase, the east tower, includes space for a new OCAD U research centre, studio block, archives, and a public lecture hall.

The new Public Learning Centre for Visual Art, Curatorial Studies and Art History (OCADUPLCVACSAH, luckily also a working title) will be the first satellite campus for the McCaul Street school and its biggest expansion construction of the Sharp Centre for Design.

  • A new museum

Details might be a little sketchy, but David Mirvish's 60,000-square-foot home for his personal collection aught to be a significant draw for King West. According to the press release distributed yesterday, the building at the corner of King and John - the last to be built - will feature a curated permanent collection of works from Jack Bush, Anthony Caro, Helen Frankenthaler, Morris Louis, Robert Motherwell, Kenneth Noland, Jules Olitski, Larry Poons, David Smith and Frank Stella.

Both architect and landowner were keen to play up the museum's public green space - or "floating garden" - which will be accessible from John Street.

Mirvish Gehry TorontoWhat we could lose

  • The Princess of Wales Theatre

Whether or not you care about this will really depend on your dedication to the performing arts. Mirvish Productions' John Karastamatis told me many of the negative comments he's heard surrounding the removal of the 19-year-old theatre so far have often come from non-customers.

Karastamatis also says Mirvish believes he will have enough performance space left with his remaining theatres. He didn't rule out the possibility of Mirvish replacing the Princess of Wales Theatre elsewhere.

The Royal Alexandra Theatre, a heritage building near the development, also owned by Mirvish, will remain untouched on the construction site's eastern edge.

  • Some history

The Princess of Wales Theatre might be just a teenager but the buildings that make up the rest of the block are considerably older. Before the area was a theatrical and cinematic hub, Ed Mirvish worked hard to save the former warehouses on the north side of the street.

While they might not be highly significant in terms of the overall history of the city, they are worth factoring in to the equation. Choosing to tear down a historic building - let alone an entire block - should never be an easy decision, but what we stand to gain here is also potentially incredibly big for the city.

So, let's throw it out there. Do you think the buildings between John and the Royal Alexandra Theatre is a fair price for what could become a city-defining set of structures? How much faith should we put in Frank Gehry to deliver something that will significantly alter Toronto's skyline? If not him, who else?

Discussion

36 Comments

Sandra / October 2, 2012 at 12:56 pm
user-pic
I think that the return more than out weighs the loss, and is the very thing that Toronto needs to keep moving forward as a competitive, cultural, progressive and world class city.
MSigs replying to a comment from Sandra / October 2, 2012 at 01:16 pm
user-pic
+1
spade / October 2, 2012 at 01:16 pm
user-pic
Tear down all the theatre`s in Toronto and build mega condo projects. People who live in glass condo`s rock.
Jordan / October 2, 2012 at 01:29 pm
user-pic
This looks great for the city. Maybe Mirvish could convert Honest Ed's into a smaller theatre complex - something more along the lines of soul pepper.
Stephen / October 2, 2012 at 01:30 pm
user-pic
Nobody is talking about the fact that the Princess of Whales, being younger, is one of the very few accessible theatres in Toronto. This is a MAJOR issue and an enormous issue for people who require accessibility facilities to access theatre on Toronto.
hendrix / October 2, 2012 at 01:38 pm
user-pic
All the grandmas are complaining about the theatre getting torn down. But few people actually attend shows there.

I figure if Mirvish wants to tear down his own baby, then let him.

And rather than limiting the condos -- let the market decide. People say "we don't need more condos" in Toronto... the market will determine if that's indeed true. If sales are strong, then Toronto clearly needs more condos...
hammered / October 2, 2012 at 01:39 pm
user-pic
As long as it doesn't turn into the bullshit "we promised you crystal but we gave you aluminum siding" ROM cladding disaster, this project could be awesome.
figgy / October 2, 2012 at 01:46 pm
user-pic
Should we do this?Absolutely! To turn our back on something so potentially spectacular and transformative would be a shame, but perhaps not unexpected of those who seek to preserve this city as a pokey backwater. And, while we're at it, mandatory architectural standards - better materials principally - of all new construction.
Grid / October 2, 2012 at 01:50 pm
user-pic
The warehouses are historical, but not significant in terms of architecture. Were they being torn down to put up something modern-but-not-significant, I don't think it'd be worth it. But this looks like it is worth it. Also, Mirvish has said that if they find they do need to build a new theatre in the future (remember: this was built for Miss Saigon because nothing else could house it at the time), then they will build. And I can't wait to see the Mirvish art collection on display in its own venue.
G / October 2, 2012 at 02:07 pm
user-pic
Agree that, in this case, the loss of historical buildings is a fair trade-off for a world-class, progressive architecture.

As for having faith in Gehry to deliver? You're asking the wrong question. His job is 90% done at this point. The question is, can we have faith in the city, planning officials, the developer and the public to allow him to deliver on his vision?
dm / October 2, 2012 at 02:10 pm
user-pic
to all the complainers - beyond just cursing the word "condos", what is exactly is the problem here?

the legitimate reasons I'm familiar with to complain about condos - boring design, poor quality, lack of consideration for the fabric of the neighbourhood, lack of cultural/community amenities - are abundently clearly NOT an issue here. A giant Gehry museum/public space in Toronto's core is clearly an asset in all those regards.

so given the design quality and public features on offer from Gehry, what exactly is the inherent problem with condos, beyond the usual sneering nimbyism? do you object to dense urban living? exactly where do you propose toronto's growing population should live?
Jipoulas / October 2, 2012 at 02:13 pm
user-pic
If we tear down the Royal Alexandra we could have 4 85 floor sculptures. People please do not call these condo`s its art where people can live.
Al / October 2, 2012 at 02:30 pm
user-pic
With DanCap out of the picture, the main stage at Toronto Centre for the Arts (NYCC) is virtually empty. Any large shows could go there, or the Sony Centre, which no longer houses the opera or ballet. In 1993 those were not options.
Rob / October 2, 2012 at 02:39 pm
user-pic
I'm thinking the aversion to condos stems from the cookie-cutter green-glass types that have oversupplied the market and ruined the waterfront. They're gross, they're cheap, and they look gross and cheap.

This situation is interesting. Unique residential towers, especially when they will dot the skyline, is a good thing. Tearing down historic buildings in a city that doesn't seem to respect its history is not a good thing, however this project is a fair trade off. There are other historical buildings worth protecting.

My main concern, as always, will be infrastructure. If Mirvish can come up with a way (say, by being that silent private partner the Ford admin desires) to help build a DRL, I'm all for it. Hell, name the first stop after him.

However, knowing how brutal getting around King St is, I want this project to die quickly if surface improvements and transit improvements aren't made. This isn't something we need, but if it results in a better standard of living for future and current residents, I'm all for it.

Rob replying to a comment from Rob / October 2, 2012 at 02:40 pm
user-pic
TL;DR: It better come with improved transit and flow or else it deserves to go in the trash.
chastity fudge / October 2, 2012 at 02:56 pm
user-pic
I want to know what the city will do for the infrastructure of adding all these buildings and hundreds, if not thousands more people to king st west every day. Does anyone ever have to take transit to and from the area? IT IS A NIGHTMARE. If they want to do this, they should be building a subway line going across downtown, otherwise I can only imagine how much worse it will get. Continuing to add more condos and universities and museums? It needs to be thought out much more clearly what effect this will have in an already insanely congested part of town.
Jenna / October 2, 2012 at 03:01 pm
user-pic
I'm with some of the comments above — having supported other controversial architectural developments in the past (*cough*MichaelLeeChinCrystal*cough*) and been very disappointed in the end results, and the underwhelming ripple effect on Toronto culture.

BUT.
I'll support this zany idea (the condos are only one small part of the greater plan, get over it).
If the results end up to being a hideous white box building, one classroom, and a store front gallery though.... I'mma be pissed!!!
Tanya / October 2, 2012 at 03:54 pm
user-pic
lol @ OCADUPLCVACSAH
steve replying to a comment from chastity fudge / October 2, 2012 at 04:02 pm
user-pic
Toronto, like most other cities, has always played catch up with infrastructure. If it does not get built the infrastructure will not get built, if it gets built after it is occupied the city will build the infrastructure. See the Port Lands for an example
Bruce / October 2, 2012 at 04:04 pm
user-pic
To the infrastructure argument: The issue is being framed the wrong way. While I totally agree that improved transit is necessary, and urgently so, we can't let our past failure to take action be a reason to curtail civic advancement. Instead we should be saying "this type of density is good for the city, it should be encouraged, and what do we need to do infrastructure-wise to support that?"
steve replying to a comment from chastity fudge / October 2, 2012 at 04:07 pm
user-pic
At this point it is not much more then a 'drawing on a napkin' ok he put together cardboard models. A mere proposal nothing more.
I am standing clapping and giving a big bravo for thinking big. Big booos and hisses for all those that cast it off without thinking and seeing what it could be. that kind of thinking we would still living in huts along the river.
Greg Hannah / October 2, 2012 at 04:26 pm
user-pic
All of the downtown theatres can accommodate wheelchairs and have accessible restrooms including Massey Hall, Ed Mirvish, Elgin & Wintergarden, St. Lawrence, Glenn Gould, Roy Thompson, Panasonic, Four Seasons Centre, Second City, Sony Centre & Royal Alex (did I miss any?). I'm active in the Toronto heritage community so I've been really conflicted over the possibility of demolishing the properties along this north stretch of King Street, two of which are designated. I've come to the conclusion after much thought that to get a huge Gehry project such as this that it outweighs keeping this block, just my opinion. I also believe that this is a good area for tall buildings (many areas where they are going up are NOT appropriate IMO) and I think that the overall benefits here to the city of Toronto are enormous. On the flip side of the street I think that "Restaurant Row" (west of John on the south side) should not be touched, those heritage buildings must remain intact.
notafan / October 2, 2012 at 04:32 pm
user-pic
this design does nothing for the street. the floating garden is awkward and not pedestrian friendly. likely it will end up very much like the crystal disaster, and look completely out of place and will be something we regret when it is all said and done.

I hope the design review panel at the City can work some magic on this one.
Roger Barton AIA / October 2, 2012 at 05:24 pm
user-pic
I don't live in Toronto, so I'll avoid commenting on specifics or local aesthetics, but I have to say as an architect going on 40 years of experience, that the concerns about infrastructure support are well-placed and well-advised. Not only street traffic is affected by increased density, but also water and sanitary sewer systems, water treatment plants, and parking access. There is also the issue of "sunlight rights" of the occupants of surrounding buildings. Towers such as this could block sunlight for much of the day, especially during the winter, for many buildings around them. Toronto's location in a more northern latitude could exacerbate the problem. Maybe the solar studies have been done, and this won't be a problem, but I hope the Toronto folks will look at this pretty carefully.
Andrew / October 2, 2012 at 06:18 pm
user-pic
First, if John Karastamatis knew anything, Gaudí was Catalan and was representative of the Catalan school of modernisme. Doesn't take anyone with one-click Google skills to find that.

Second, he is also ignoring the protests of subscribers like me who have been vocally against the demolition of the best theatre in Toronto (in terms of acoustics, sightlines and comfort) without so much as a public consultation or collaborative input process. It was an edict from David Mirvish for condo money. And on top of that, it was insulting to the intelligence of his customers and the public to blow flowery smoke in our face with this bullshit PR spin. If it is too expensive to upkeep the theatre and among his stable of theatres he felt the PoW was Thr one he could sacrifice, then tell us and be upfront. All that "this will make Toronto theatre stronger" is so absurd he might as well just slap us in the face with a laugh after saying it.

And let's not forget David Mirvish signed a deal with Sony Centre to lock out Dan Aubrey from downtown, then turns around and tell us there's too much unused space to justify the demolition of PoW. Machiavellian. I hope his parents are turning in their graves for the kind of seed they produced.
v79 replying to a comment from hammered / October 2, 2012 at 09:30 pm
user-pic
Unlike what happened with the ROM (where the original design was far superior to the end result), I hope this receives significant modifications before it's built. Some of the draft towers at yesterday's unveiling were drastically better than the two outermost towers in the official mock-up. And the paper scraps have to go. Maybe some slightly smaller metallic ribbons reminiscent of the Guggenheim/Disney Theater or something similar could take their place. We desperately need more architectural landmarks in this city, but this needs to be tweaked a bit more before it can be called that.
ScottS / October 2, 2012 at 10:12 pm
user-pic
Unfortunately you don't get to decide what someone does with their PRIVATE property. Maybe if you get to be a multi-millionaire, or at least the son of one, make some bold decisions about property you own in a city you love, then maybe you can have input and seek the views of others. It's a functional theatre, but not particularly inspiring. Good riddance, onward and upward.
Melody / October 2, 2012 at 10:19 pm
user-pic
I worked in theatre for 16 years in Toronto and two of those were spent working form Mirvish Productions in one of those old buildings that will be demolished with this project. They may be historical but they are also derelict. I think we stand to gain far more than we do to lose.
Rick replying to a comment from MSigs / October 2, 2012 at 11:48 pm
user-pic
+2
Huggy / October 3, 2012 at 12:51 am
user-pic
Lets do this right one 120 floor condo with a 3500 seat theatre on the top floor man am i brilliant. yea for me
doorhandle / October 3, 2012 at 04:03 am
user-pic
Let him build his babel on king street... how long until he wants to tear down honest ed's and build something at bloor and bathurst?
We're one of the cool kids, right? / October 3, 2012 at 09:46 am
user-pic
This could be a great thing for the city, but if they don't take into account the impact it will have on infrastructure and transportation, then it will be a disaster. Things are already plenty bad down that way, with regards to getting around.

Second, can we PLEASE agree to stop using the phrase "World Class City"? My hand involuntarily curls into a fist every time I see or hear someone agonizing over Toronto's place among the global "elite". The biggest clue that we're not one, is always worrying about whether or not we're one. Let's just be Toronto, and let the rest take care of itself.
John / October 3, 2012 at 11:55 pm
user-pic
This site is a couple blocks from the subway, and will probably connect under King St. to the PATH at Metro Hall, allowing for a short indoor walk to St. Andrew station. Can't ask for much better infrastructure than that.

And lets be honest, if these condo units are not built here, they will be built elsewhere as the market requires. In any case, more people living downtown is going to put a strain on the infrastructure. Better to add density within walking distance of subways and thousands of jobs.
Aaron / October 4, 2012 at 12:48 pm
user-pic
Who does Mirvish plan on selling these to? There is 5 years worth of supply being completed on the cusp of a major RE downturn. Investors, speckers and flippers are fleeing the scene. He's definitely pushing all the right buttons though with words like 'iconic','culture', 'sculpture', etc. and offering vague promises of a gallery "last to be built" of course. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets all the approvals in order, clears the block, then sells the land citing the 'unforeseen downturn' as an excuse to walk away from this charade. This is to grand development what One City was to transit development.
Sean replying to a comment from Aaron / October 7, 2012 at 12:16 pm
user-pic
Well said Aaron.
Councillor J Miter / December 5, 2012 at 08:40 pm
user-pic
This in fact is a wonderful idea. The real thing is, all the other theaters in Toronto are never full.

Add a Comment

Other Cities: Montreal