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Should Toronto add more scramble intersections?

Posted by Staff / October 18, 2012

Scramble Intersection TorontoI like my intersections like I like my eggs - scrambled. Now that's out of the way, it's been five years since the city introduced us to the wonders of the scramble intersection. Remember that initial hesitance, followed by that liberating feeling of the first time you walked diagonally across a busy intersection? It was a novelty in 2008, but five years into the pilot project is the love lost?

Three intersections across the city have already been pedestrianized: Bay/Bloor, Yonge/Dundas and Yonge/Bloor. So far these locations have been chosen to increase pedestrian safety be reducing crowding on busy street corners. On a typical weekday during an 8-hour period there are 68,600 pedestrian crossings at Yonge/Dundas, 59,000 at Yonge/Bloor, and 42,200 at Bay/Bloor, outstripping vehicle traffic through the lights.

It's disputed whether these intersections are a success, and that probably comes down to whether you are on foot or not - is the incrementally longer driving time worth it for the convenience of those on foot, or is the gridlock too dire?

So far Toronto's scramble intersections haven't reached any further north than Bloor St., but the City confirms that there has been some demand for a scramble at Yonge and Eglington. The Yonge and Eglington area has less foot traffic than the overflowing corners downtown and could pose some problems with timing. Currently all three scramble intersections run on a consistent 24-hour cycle with no changes to accommodate rush hour. The city has also received plenty of calls for a scramble intersection at Bay and Front, but this intersection is further complicated by already clogged rush hour car traffic and would also require some special timing considerations.

City of Toronto project officer Janet Lo maintains there are no plans to expand any more scramble intersections at this time. The current pilot project is still under review by the city with a report expected in early 2013. Additionally, last year Public Works chairman Denzil Minnan-Wong called into question how practical these crossings are and called for an additional outside consultant's review. Until these intersections are dissected and examined there won't be any more expansion, but public where do you think the city could use a scramble intersection most?

Correction:

An earlier version of this article stated that the outside consultant's review of scramble crossings cost $375,000. This number actually covers the entire Downtown Transportation Operations Study. Much of the review of scramble intersections is being conducted by city staff.

Writing by Matt Stephen / Photo by Roger Cullman

Discussion

52 Comments

Rich / October 18, 2012 at 10:07 am
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"Should Toronto add more scramble intersections?"

Yes.
Nixon / October 18, 2012 at 10:19 am
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Absolutely. Especially in the downtown core. Make the core more pedestrian friendly. Not vehicle friendly. More pedestrian only areas!

This would never happen here (cause it's too good of an idea and our transit system sucks) but there are cities in Australia (ex. Perth) where public transit within the downtown core is free. People park their cars on the fringes and just take transit. Brilliant!
bikeroo / October 18, 2012 at 10:20 am
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Yes, they should add more - I'm thinking a corridor of them on Bay at Dundas, College, Queen. But I also think that they should be timed to only work during the work day and not in the evenings and weekends when most of the foot traffic has already left the area.
MER1978 / October 18, 2012 at 10:27 am
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Yonge/College is a fairly obvious candidate.
lister / October 18, 2012 at 10:28 am
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Yes but they should be done properly not like what currently is in place at Yonge & Dundas. In other words when the cars are going there shouldn't be any pedestrian traffic.

I'm saying this as a primary pedestrian who lives and works downtown.
Jose / October 18, 2012 at 10:33 am
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Yes, more scramble intersections are good -- because traffic is NOT an issue....................................................................................
James / October 18, 2012 at 10:33 am
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Yes, but not downtown. Traffic is congested enough with people crossing the street (legally and illegally), it makes no sense as a driver to add more congestion. There is no harm walking another 20 feet to a stoplight, of which there are many downtown, and crossing that way.

In addition, 2008 + 5 years is 2013. It's not yet 2013, so the intersections have only been around for four years.
iSkyscraper / October 18, 2012 at 10:37 am
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Completely pointless discussion as long as DMW is around.

Toronto needs a JSK-type professional (not a councillor by the way, an actual professional) to head all things transportation and follow a proper process to determine what the goals are, what the data says, and why something should or shouldn't be done. Right now it is too political to touch a street in Toronto, and that is wrong.
mar / October 18, 2012 at 10:38 am
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yes. every major intersection between king and bloor and between church and spadina. also they should switch all major streets withing that circumference to one way streets. so obvious!
mar replying to a comment from bikeroo / October 18, 2012 at 10:41 am
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Hmm I kind of agree only the exact opposite. Weekends and evenings when people are in these areas is when it should be cross section weekdays during work hours traffic lights should be as they are.
Dzak / October 18, 2012 at 10:44 am
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Danforth & Pape. Lots of foot and vehicle traffic.
Internet Tough Guy / October 18, 2012 at 10:50 am
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It feels like Spadina & Queen could use one.

Also, I would be greatly in favour of turning low volume signalled intersections into four way stops (with a flashing red light) during the late night and early morning.
Aaron / October 18, 2012 at 10:53 am
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Front-Wellington-Church. So many pedestrians, yet it takes forever to get through that mess of an intersection, and everyone always jaywalks because the signals make no sense.
morga / October 18, 2012 at 11:01 am
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Somehow Toronto didn't understand the point of a scramble in the first place. There should be NO pedestrians walking when cars are moving, allowing cars to make right turns, freeing up a lane that would normally be blocked by pedestrians walking. For some reason, we let them continue to walk while cars are moving. Maybe we could begin to understand how they are supposed to work before we ad more.
DJM / October 18, 2012 at 11:02 am
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As a pedestrian, I think it destroys the beauty of a street when it looks like a parking lot. And for most of the day, that's what Bloor from Avenue to Yonge looks like because of the poorly timed lights at scramble intersections. The cars just sit there because only 1 or 2 are able to make a right turn during a light. There's an easy way to solve this - with advance greens for right hand turns. And the scramble should be turned off late night when there are hardly any pedestrians around.
Jeff / October 18, 2012 at 11:06 am
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Scrambles should only be used in exceptional cases where there is so much pedestrian traffic that there is not enough sidewalk space for people waiting at a red light.
Jeff / October 18, 2012 at 11:06 am
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And $375,000 for a consultant to review this?! What a waste of taxpayer dollars!
mezimeen / October 18, 2012 at 11:07 am
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Yes, but they should turn OFF after 9pm. Why I have to wait for a scramble at later at night when pedestrian traffic is a fraction of what it is earlier is a joke.
Michael / October 18, 2012 at 11:16 am
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I think scrambles are a good thing, but they should be modified to work with traffic a little better.

Ever see the traffic snarl from people trying to turn right at a scramble? One car gets through per cylce.

Pedestrians should only be able to cross at the scramble. Then cars can move through their time. The scramble can be longer, the car period can be shorter.

But they have to work together in a better way.
jd / October 18, 2012 at 11:41 am
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Live near two scrambles and work next to another. I'm a big supporter. I agree Spadina could use some, but the way the streets are made up with streetcars could make it difficult to actually pull off.

I wish Minnan-Wong would leave the ones we have alone tho.
Chris replying to a comment from Michael / October 18, 2012 at 11:57 am
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I have to agree with Michael on this one - pedestrians should only be allowed to cross during the "scramble". That way cars that need to make turns can do so on the green light which keeps traffic flowing more smoothly. since the point of the scramble is to help traffic flow by clearing the pedestrians more smoothly, it never made sense to me why they still allow pedestrians to cross at the green when cars would be trying to make right or left turns?
Alexander / October 18, 2012 at 01:00 pm
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Nope...and not because they aren't a good idea (they are) but because the only intersections that really need them, have them.

I have lived at Yonge/Eg for 12 years now and not once have I ever thought "wow, crossing diagonally would be a big help".

They only need these at Yonge/Bloor and Yonge/Dundas...nowhere else is busy enough to make them worthwhile.
TOGirl / October 18, 2012 at 01:05 pm
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It's a great idea to get foot traffic where it needs to go, but seriously inhibits traffic which is already a mess in Toronto. I think pedestrians should only be able to cross when the 'walk sign is on for all crossings' and should not be able to cross at any other time, leaving the streets free for vehicles to make left and right hand turns without backing up traffic for blocks.
darrel / October 18, 2012 at 01:16 pm
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Front & York, Spadina & Queen, and Spadina & Dundas.
Laura / October 18, 2012 at 01:17 pm
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We are doing the scramble intersections all wrong. What is the point if we still allow pedestrians to cross afterwards, blocking the right and left turns.
And someone explain why the scramble intersections are on at 4am in the morning!!!

If we used them properly it is a great tool to alleviate both car and traffic. Right now it's hindering.
W. K. Lis / October 18, 2012 at 01:28 pm
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I can see Rob Ford's comment on scramble intersections: "Roads are for cars."
Pablo / October 18, 2012 at 01:29 pm
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I feel we could use more, like already mentioned spadina and queen, if not spadina and dundas (but not both). Yonge and eg, bay and queen. So many places, but I think either bloor and yonge or bay and bloor need to go. Much to close to one another, perhaps keep yonge and bloor ad move the other to university/avenue road and bloor.
David Miller / October 18, 2012 at 01:40 pm
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Yes, just to see Rob Ford's head explode.
AV / October 18, 2012 at 01:46 pm
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Need to get rid of the ones we have, they slow down traffic too much.
Internet Nice Guy / October 18, 2012 at 02:02 pm
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You all do realize that cars cannot turn at the Dundas/Yonge and Bloor/Yonge scrambles anyway, right? The Bay/Bloor scramble should certainly be reconfigured though, I agree.
Rob Ford / October 18, 2012 at 02:24 pm
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Roads are for cars.
Cliff S replying to a comment from Michael / October 18, 2012 at 02:26 pm
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re:no pedestrian crossing while drivers have the green light.

There's no turning (left or right) at yonge/dundas or yonge/bloor, so whichever way you are trying to turn is illegal. Try a new complaint.
Alex / October 18, 2012 at 02:26 pm
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I'm really glad they have it at Yonge/Dundas, that intersection is insanely crowded for pedestrians.

I don't know why anyone would think Yonge-Eg needs it, it's a busy intersection but not congested at all for pedestrians. The only other intersections I can think of it for are Front/Bay and Front/University (I know that one's complicated, but it's super busy at rush hour due to GO commuters).
Jer replying to a comment from lister / October 18, 2012 at 02:43 pm
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I agree... They aren't done correctly now. It is okay when there are no turns allowed (like Y/D Square intersection) but at the other intersections they need to enforce the signals for pedestrians otherwise turning traffic gets all blocked up and causes big back logs. Seen this on Bloor street in particular
Mrgrieves / October 18, 2012 at 02:52 pm
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Instead of scrambles we should focus on simpler measures such as no turning and especially no right reds at any interesection with high pedestrian volume
Giancarlo / October 18, 2012 at 04:14 pm
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No.

They don't really save people time in terms of walking(the sole exception being if you arrive at the exception precisely at the time when all-way walk is on), and they also cause congestion. I agree with Mrgrieves' proposal no turning at busy intersections.
Jones / October 18, 2012 at 04:57 pm
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I'm pretty sure you can turn right going north on Yonge at Bloor.

I like the scramble but it's very frustrating if you're driving and there's no one crossing the streets in any direction. This is almost always the case in the evening (at least at the two Bloor intersections). They should be timed.
john / October 18, 2012 at 05:27 pm
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no one crossing at night is a valid complaint for all signaled intersections, it's not something that only occurs at scrambles. there is often no cross traffic either, so why not just run the red and stop complaining?
steve replying to a comment from James / October 18, 2012 at 06:24 pm
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Were do you find crossings every 20 ft? The shortest is a block, but they are very unusual. More like 2 to 3 and more blocks in the core, upwards of 1k 2k + in the burbs
morton / October 18, 2012 at 06:54 pm
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Need more of these on Yonge south of Bloor. Pedestrian traffic drives business on Yonge not cars. Make it better for pedestrians, you are pro-business. You make it worse for pedestrians you are anti-business, trying to build your traffic-free socialist paradise on the backs of hard working business owners.
Ralph / October 18, 2012 at 09:14 pm
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None north of Bloor? Rogers Rd at Old Weston has quietly added this to the traffic light sequence.
Just sayin'.
Guillaume replying to a comment from lister / October 19, 2012 at 07:24 am
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I 100% agree. Pedestrians should have one turn, then north-south traffic, then east-west traffic., repeat. There is no need for pedestrian crossings across individual streets if the diagonal crossing time is long enough.
Will / October 19, 2012 at 07:28 am
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Every busy intersection in the downtown core should have, bu they should be properly configured.
Daley replying to a comment from lister / October 19, 2012 at 03:49 pm
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I agree separate cars and pedestrian phases. The way the few scrambles are done in Calgary are 3+ phases with pedestrians and cars going at different times. It makes more sense, then the right turning cars get to go and that clears up the lane for traffic to get through the intersection.
alex replying to a comment from James / October 19, 2012 at 04:56 pm
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Thank you so much for correcting that! I was like, we didn't time travel so July 2008 is 4 years ago. :)
namehijacked / October 22, 2012 at 08:04 am
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Well, congratulations, Toronto: you've succeeded once again to take a great idea and turn it into dust. Or is that as long as a project results in making vehicular traffic worse, it automatically gets approved?
Bay and Yonge have less vehicular traffic because those two intersections at Bloor have been turned into a disaster. Not only are the lights themselves significantly longer, but allowing pedestrians to cross with traffic defeats the entire purpose. Done correctly, crossing an intersection should be more efficient for BOTH vehicles and pedestrians.
Ah, but that was not the point, was it? So, Motorists avoid Yonge/Bloor, Bay/Bloor and Dundas/Yonge, proving what, exactly? Did downtown traffic decrease, or did motorists just find another side street to cut through?
Return the scramble crossings to their original concept and you'd have a winner that benefits all.

But that is NOT the Toronto way, is it?
Fed-up / October 22, 2012 at 06:05 pm
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FFS! The street is EgLINTON. There is no G.
Jacky Kennedy / October 24, 2012 at 12:40 pm
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Love the scrambles and we need more. Yonge/Eglinton definitely plus a traffic light north at Roehampton/Orchard View - Yonge/Eg is my hood and it's a dangerous intersection for people travelling on foot. Never any enforcement of red light runners. It's safer to cross mid-block than at the intersection.
Zack / October 24, 2012 at 08:33 pm
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We need more unicyclists hanging out at intersections, doing tricks and stuff.
Gul Jassad replying to a comment from namehijacked / October 24, 2012 at 11:57 pm
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Aww, are you pissed off that you can't just zip through the downtown streets like a demon? Get used to it-this is the wave of the future for most cities in the world, including New York and a few other notables (many other cities close down their main streets to traffic altogether, which Toronto should be considering [and which the Church Street BIA is also considering]). Try to live in this time period, or take you sour old white man self and go back in time to a past version of Toronto that you can feel like yourself in.
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Try to live in this time period, or take you sour old white man self and go back in time to a past version of Toronto that you can feel like yourself in. should toronto leave the intersections.
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