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Nostalgia Tripping: The Peter Witt streetcar, Toronto's original Red Rocket

Posted by Agatha Barc / July 17, 2010

Peter Witt Streetcar TorontoStreetcars have been enduring icons of Toronto, and their constant presence on major downtown streets has made them an integral part of the Toronto's psychological (and literal) streetscape. Postcards and photographs from the interwar period often depict the wooden Peter Witt model, which graced Toronto's streets for many years.

Larry Partridge, in Mind the Door Please: the Story of Toronto and Its Streetcars and in The Witts: An Affectionate Look at Toronto's Original Red Rockets, writes that it was the first electric streetcar to be used in Toronto, named after its designer, a Traction Commissioner from Cleveland, Ohio. In 1920, the newly formed Toronto Transportation Commission set out to reform public transit in Toronto. For this purpose, its representatives visited several cities south of the border to investigate the different types of streetcars in use.

Vintage Postcard TorontoThe new streetcar made its debut at the Canadian National Exhibition in August, 1921. The first Witt rolled out on October 2 of the same year. The large model was 51 feet and 10 inches long and could seat over 60 passengers. It was able to pull trailers, but it was also slower than the small Witt. It had four motors, rated at 50 horsepower each. This streetcar was usually seen on major, more heavily used routes, including Yonge, College, Bloor, and Dundas. The small prototype was 47 feet long and could accommodate 55 passengers. It also had four motors of 35 horsepower each. It operated on less busy routes, such as Harbord.

TTC Peter Witt streetcarOriginally, the seats were made of wooden slats and in winter coal stoves kept the interior of the streetcar warm. In mid-1930s, the interiors were upgraded: the seating was covered in upholstery and forced air blast heaters replaced the stoves.

When the Witts were first introduced, they were innovative in a number of ways. They were considered more comfortable and speedier than the previously used horsecars and coaches. The centre exit doors are described as "power-sliding," while the front entrance folding doors had a drop-down step, which would fold when the doors were closed. Another novelty was the mirrors by the front doors, now a standard feature on all of the TTC's equipment. The brakes were operated by compressed air, with the exception of the hand brake.

TTC peter witt streetcarInside, the motorman's cab was located in the front, opposite the front doors. A sandbox was located right behind him. There were two long seats in the front as well, one being shorter due to the conductor's stand located to the left. The centre doors were to the right of it and opposite the stove. In the back, six seats were located on each site, while another five were all the way in the back. Windows were made of wood, with the top part fixed in the frame, while the bottom part could be opened.

ttc peter witt streetcarEach Witt was operated by a driver (referred to as a motorman) and a conductor. The latter was assigned to a stand, located to the left of the centre doors, and opposite the stove. Equipped with a farebox, he was responsible for collecting fares from the customers. The conductor was deliberately placed towards the rear of the vehicle, so the riders, passing the fare box, would be directed first to the back seats. In the early 1920s, the adult fare was $0.10 cash. Four tickets cost $0.25, while sixteen could be had for $1.

The Witts were gradually taken out of service, beginning in 1938, when the new Presidents' Conference Committee streetcar was introduced. The PCCs replaced the old models on all major routes, except during the rush hour. The Witts remained on Yonge and Bay at all times. March 30, 1954, marked the opening of the Yonge subway line, from Union Station to Eglinton, and at that point the Witts finally ceased to operate on Yonge after 33 years. They would continue to operate in the rush hour on other routes, but all they were officially retired on February 28, 1963, when the University subway lined was opened. The withdrawn streetcars were stripped of useable parts and then sent to the junk yard.

Currently, the TTC has one restored Witt left in its fleet, which is housed in the Hillcrest Complex at Bathurst and Davenport. Another streetcar of this model is also part of the collection of the wonderful and highly recommended Halton County Radial Railway Museum, in Milton, where you can catch a nostalgic ride.

TTC Peter witt streetcarPhotos from the Toronto Archives (series and fond information at bottom of image) and the Wikimedia Commons. Postcard and 2006 photographs from the author's collection.

Discussion

34 Comments

David LS / July 17, 2010 at 10:06 am
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I am to young to remember the Witt's but I do remember the old maroon subway cars. It was always exciting when one of those pulled up to the platform. They smelled different and felt old-fashioned when the lights would go out in the tunnels. I guess it was around the late 80's that they retired them?
J / July 17, 2010 at 11:21 am
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The final picture in this story isn't a Witt car and neither are the second or third pictures. Although, in the case of the second and third pictures, you are probably highlighting the pre-Witt cars that operated in Toronto. Also, there is more than one Witt car at the Halton County Railway Museum, of both the large and small variety. I'm not aware of any wooden Witts. I think you might be referring to a variety of streetcar models that played off of the earlier Brill design.
Agatha replying to a comment from J / July 17, 2010 at 01:01 pm
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I honestly don't see much difference between the Brill and the Witt, both designs are from the same manufacturer, J. G. Brill & Co. Also, I'm aware of the numbers of Witts in the museum's collection, but I didn't think that it was necessary to go into specifics for such a short, introductory post.
Norm / July 17, 2010 at 01:32 pm
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I worked at Loblaws Head Office (Bathurst & Fleet) in 1963 and Witt cars were still working Bathurst St. at least part of that year. I am sure I remember mom and me riding Witt's on Yonge St. before the subway was built and the conductor collected fares at the rear doors and kept the stove going to keep the passengers warm. Definately go to Halton County R.R. Museum (with the kids) to ride the old streetcars to get a taste of this wonderful transportation. The more informed comments from people who were there, the better. Thanks for the memories.
Gormley Park replying to a comment from David LS / July 17, 2010 at 02:07 pm
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Thanks for the information, David LS, you clearly know a lot about these old cars. I'm too young to remember any but the current cars, but whenever I see one of the old PCCs out on charter or for a special event, I'm drawn to it.

On another note, why is it that BlogTO authors (or should I call them "introductory posters"), when faced with criticism over the substance of a piece, fall back on the canard that it wasn't actually a "review" but rather a "profile" or, in this case, an "introductory post"? Next time, Agatha, just say 'thanks' or say nothing at all. Aside from your defensiveness and the photo errors, I thought the piece was very interesting.
Torontonian / July 17, 2010 at 02:37 pm
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It was the Birney Safety Car that preceded the
Peter Witts. Most of the Birneys were from the
Toronto Railway Company before the 1921 takeover
by the TTC.

This Flickr link may provide more photos showing
Birneys.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Birney%20safety%20car&;w=all&s=int

If memory serves me correctly, the Birneys had only
one wheel truck assembly under the vehicle. The
Witts had two wheel truck assemblies, just like
the present TTC CLRVs.
Derek replying to a comment from Gormley Park / July 17, 2010 at 02:52 pm
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We encourage our writers to be active in the comment threads of their posts, something that you rarely see with mainsteam media outlets. In this case, I think it's completely reasonable that Agatha defend her decision not to include a breakdown of the holdings of the HCRM. It's not a cop-out to acknowledge that there are length restrictions in place for these posts - because the reality is that there are, and not all information can or should be included.

And please don't insult our authors by suggesting that they be referred to as introductory posters. Knowing the effort that they put in on a regular basis, I do get defensive about jabs like that.
Bonk / July 17, 2010 at 02:55 pm
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These in-depth articles about facets of life in Toronto's distant and not-so-distant past are my favourite series on BlogTO.
W. K. Lis / July 17, 2010 at 03:32 pm
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The Peter Witt cars had a driver and a conductor who collected fares and issued transfers as the passengers passed him as they exited the center doors.

The PCC's had only a driver, who also acted as a conductor, collecting fares and issuing transfers as the passengers entered. The passengers are supposed to exit the center doors, but now block the entrance as they exit.

The new low-floor streetcars and light rail vehicles will still have a driver, but will no longer do the duties of the conductor. An special constable or inspector will verify that the passenger has paid or prepaid.
Agatha replying to a comment from Bonk / July 17, 2010 at 04:00 pm
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Thank you for your kind comments, I've noticed that you regularly read and comment on my posts.
Agatha replying to a comment from Gormley Park / July 17, 2010 at 04:02 pm
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Posts like this require a lot of time and dedication on a regular basis so please excuse me when I dare to defend my work. Thanks.
ilike / July 17, 2010 at 05:21 pm
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I like any articles like this, that deal with the past of Toronto or York county area. Keep them coming.
George Dunbar / July 17, 2010 at 05:58 pm
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Thanks for your excellent history of Toronto's streetcars.
I must object, however, to the use of "Red Rocket" in the title.
I don't believe that term was ever used before the introduction of the PCC fleet of streetcars in 1938.
The PCC cars were designed with a contemporary 'streamlined' appearance and hence the nickname.
George Dunbar / July 17, 2010 at 05:59 pm
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Thanks for your excellent history of Toronto's streetcars.
I must object, however, to the use of "Red Rocket" in the title.
I don't believe that term was ever used before the introduction of the PCC fleet of streetcars in 1938.
The PCC cars were designed with a contemporary 'streamlined' appearance and hence the nickname.
George Dunbar / July 17, 2010 at 06:00 pm
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Thanks for your excellent history of Toronto's streetcars.
I must object, however, to the use of "Red Rocket" in the title.
I don't believe that term was ever used before the introduction of the PCC fleet of streetcars in 1938.
The PCC cars were designed with a contemporary 'streamlined' appearance and hence the nickname.
George / July 17, 2010 at 06:03 pm
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Thanks for your excellent history of Toronto's streetcars.
I must object, however, to the use of "Red Rocket" in the title.
I don't believe that term was ever used before the introduction of the PCC fleet of streetcars in 1938.
The PCC cars were designed with a contemporary 'streamlined' appearance and hence the nickname.
Sean / July 17, 2010 at 06:09 pm
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Put these back on the tracks! I want to pay the 10¢ a ride.
Agatha replying to a comment from George Dunbar / July 17, 2010 at 10:25 pm
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Thank you for your comment. The sources that I researched for this post indicate that the Witts were the original "Red Rockets", but the author may be wrong.
Gormley Park replying to a comment from Derek / July 18, 2010 at 12:34 pm
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The label "introductory poster" comes from Agatha's retort of J's point that some relevant information was missing or incorrect that this was an "introductory post", as if that absolves the error. This defence follows similar comments by other BlogTO contributors who have reviewed restaurants only to claim they were profiles and not reviews.

In any event, why does Agatha have to "defend" anything? The commenter J merely added clarification and did so in a respectful way. Her excuse that she didn't have space to go into detail was a red herring for three reasons that should be obvious to anyone: 1) she went into as much or greater detail on other points, e.g. the length of the Witt cars; 2) there is no space restriction on the Internet and I doubt there is a hard and fast rule at BlogTO - are you going to make me go and do word counts on your articles? -; and 3) J, the commenter, was correcting incorrect information, which Agatha had the room to present. If she had the room to present incorrect information, then she had room to present the correct information in its place.

Having said all that, this is a nice piece, which I and others appreciate. So thanks for that, Agatha, and lose the attitude. You too, Derek.
Derek replying to a comment from Gormley Park / July 18, 2010 at 04:12 pm
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It's blatantly obvious where you got the "introductory poster" line, but that doesn't make it any less rude or insulting. And, since I'm forced to correct you once more, let me point out that the line about the HCRM isn't an error. Agatha merely states that there is one of these sttreetcars in the museum's collection. That fact that they may have more than one doesn't make that line incorrect.

But this, of course, is a minor point.

What's problematic to me, and what draws me to comment once again, is your other remarks. As the editor of this site I can tell you that we do limit how long our writer's posts can be. Just because one is reading online, doesn't mean that he/she wants to sift through a dissertations on streetcars. I exaggerate here to underscore the point that the desire to defend that aspect of the article is bred by your sloppy reading. And, as I'm sure my tone communicates, I have little patience when this type of "crticism" is directed at a blogTO writer.

As for your order to lose the attitude...I'd ask that you re-read your original comment and pose the following question to yourself: does this request make me a hypocrite?
Agatha replying to a comment from Gormley Park / July 18, 2010 at 05:10 pm
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By "introductory post", I meant an overview of the history of Toronto's Witts. I obviously should have been more clear in my defense. When I write my dissertation/theses on the Witts, I will remember to include a section on the entire HCRM collection.
jennifer / July 19, 2010 at 10:52 am
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I am going to that museum as soon as I can! I simply adore streetcars and I would love the chance to ride around on a historic car like that. Thanks for the information.

Like David LS, I have very distinct memories of the old maroon subway cars. Does the TTC have any of them around anymore?
Gormley Park replying to a comment from Agatha / July 19, 2010 at 02:40 pm
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I understood what you meant, I took umbrage at the way you used it as a means to not acknowledge that you had incorrectly stated that there was "another streetcar of this model" at the Halton museum, when there are more than one of that model.

It's happened a couple of times now that BlogTO writers have labeled their posts as something else in order to try and dodge criticism of the substance of the piece and I think that's cheap, frankly. I also think it's really lame for an author of a piece, when a reader clarifies something in the article, to come back defensively. J's comment added clarity and value to your work. Accept it. Embrace it. Be happy anyone is reading your stuff. If someone is being rude - which J was not - slap 'em down.

Derek, it does make it incorrect and no, my I'm not a hypocrite (at least not in this context). Cheers.
Marc / July 21, 2010 at 12:27 pm
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Class, identity and elegance.
William Grant / January 17, 2011 at 07:18 pm
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I drove Peter Witts in 1950 then in 1956 until the early 60tys.In 1956 the conductor had been eliminated and the motorman did everything that two used to do.When they were sold to a scrap dealer we TTC operators allowed to take what we wanted from inside the witts such as the removable seat covers,hand rails ect. then they were burned and the scrap metal that was left was sold
Bill
Agatha replying to a comment from William Grant / January 18, 2011 at 01:27 pm
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Thanks for sharing, William! It's good to know details not generally included in books.
Dennis / January 24, 2011 at 10:30 pm
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Hi Agatha:-

An interesting little tid-bit about the end of the Peter Witts. Within a short time after they had been officially retired, someone inadvertently scheduled a few of them out as 'Baseball Extras' to service Maple Leaf Stadium. The cars should never have left the yard, but.....!

Dennis
Dennis / January 24, 2011 at 10:48 pm
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Hi Agatha:-

A wee point on your opening paragraph. None of Toronto's Witt cars were built of wood. They did have a wood finish in their interiors, but the main body and exterior sheeting were steel. In fact I'm fairly positive no other city had wooden Witts.

The first ones were built by the Kuhlman Company for service in Cleveland Ohio and were definitely steel cars. Other major users of Witt type cars were Brooklyn, Philadelphia and Baltimore. Other cities had had them too but they typically didn't fill a major percentage in their rosters. One interesting 'Witt' user was Atlanta Georgia, which bought many used streetcars from various street railways in the US and converted them to the Witt design.

So what makes a Witt a Witt? It's in the door arrangement which we're so used to here in Toronto. Front entrance doors and centre exit doors. It was also in the fare collection system initially too, called pay as you pass. Fares were payed to the Conductor, sitting just forward of the centre doors on the door side of the car as they passed to either the exit or just to ride in the rear half of the car. Any streetcar company buying Peter Witt cars had to pay Mr. Witt a $50.00 fee for the use of his patent for each car constructed.

The design of a streetcar body with this door arrangement was so well thought of by the time the streamline PCCs were introduced that this became the predominant layout for most PCCs constructed and even too by the bus industry.

Dennis
Dennis / January 24, 2011 at 11:30 pm
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Hi Agatha:-

I enjoyed and appreciated your article tremendously. It's nice to see positive stuff being written about streetcars.

Your response comment to J is interesting as you were mixing in a bunch of ideas, but if I understand your intention correctly you were trying to defend your selection of photos used to illustrate your article. Well, you're correct when you say that the Brill Witts in Toronto were quite similar to the other Witts that ran here differing in quality of body construction and trucks mainly (all of the Brills were large Witts and had a roof profile distinctly more arched than the Ottawa and Canadian Car and Foundry built cars, with the CC&F's predominating the roster and the Ottawa built cars being only the last 50 of the small Witts) The pic of #2894 at Rockwood's Halton County Radial Railway museum and the archive photo of 2836 rolled up Luttrell Carlton being two of the Ottawas. In all, very few streetcars built for and used in Toronto were built by the J.G. Brill Company and most of those that were, were built in Brill's subsidiary company, the Preston Car and Coach factory, once a major employer in Preston Ontario.

None of the Toronto Brill Witts survived to be preserved but many of their trucks and motors were reused under work cars, both on the streetcar lines and the subway. Some of these trucks are now at Rockwood saved for further use under the preserved cars there.

And too as J was alluding to, the other cars pictured that are not Witts, were all built by the Toronto Railway Company in their shop building which had been located on Front at Frederick Street and are predominantly of wood construction, framing and sheeting. They had no centre doors, one of the defining features of a Witt car, but had front and rear doors, with initially the rear ones for loading and unloading and the front ones for the motorman's access and exiting passengers.

The third picture in your group showing youngsters hanging on to the handrails at the doors, is of a Toronto Suburban Railway car at the end of the Davenport line on the west side of Bathurst Street and it is unlike most of the streetcars used in Toronto and built by the TR Co. for it is a double ender, having trolley poles and controls at both ends of the car, thus the car was not required to be turned around at the en of the line, the motorman changing ends (as is done in the subway).

I've raised some seemingly minor points in an otherwise well done article but by being highlighted they do point out the rich and varied history which our Toronto's urban transportation systems have had! Do some more please.

Dennis
Dennis / January 25, 2011 at 12:16 am
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To Torontonian.

I missed the link. Sorry. Here'tis!


http://www.davesrailpix.com/ttc/htm/bvt009.htm

Dennis
William Grant / January 25, 2011 at 07:28 am
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Dennis I take it that your a streetcar buff.Is this the car that the TRC built?WE drivers called them wooden cars and I drove them. Now I know why the TTC does not have a history on them,they weren't their cars.
Bill
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v11/otnorot/?action=view&;current=ttc424.jpg
Dennis replying to a comment from William Grant / January 25, 2011 at 08:25 am
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Hi William:-

Yes I'm a streetcar buff. Have been since I can remember and was once an active member of the streetcar museum at Rockwood. I met my wife there!

Anyhow, yes the picture that you linked to is a TR wooden car and was one of the last of the cars built by the TR Co, about 1918. It was closed all its life. It was not built as a convertible like its earlier sisters as the open feature on streetcars had been outlawed in Ontario in 1915. It looks like this shot was taken on the single track stretch of Connaught Ave just before the car will turn west on Eastern Av. It is not in service as it will be a shed move.

It likely survived right to the end in 1950 so it was a TTC car for 29 of its 32 year life. You'll note the door arrangement. This is the typical pre-TTC and therefore pre-Peter Witt/PCC door placement here in Toronto. Some of these type cars were sent to Ottawa, Quebec City and Thunder Bay during the war to assist them with carrying the heavy wartime loads demanded on all streetcar systems at that time. We were able to cash in on some smaller than ordered shared deliveries of new PCC cars, thus releasing the TRs for reuse elsewhere. Our orders for PCCs were reduced in size as mandated by the government as a war resource measure. The orders were split up as some were sent to Vancouver and the others went to the reluctant Montreal Tramways.

Dennis
Norma / April 14, 2012 at 09:01 pm
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Can anyone tell me when streetcars with coal heaters were discontinued? I seem to have a memory of being in one. I'm not sure if it's a true memory or if I perhaps just saw a photo or movie of one. I was born in 1945. I would appreciate any and all responses. I do remember the 2 operators (conductor and driver).
otnorot / May 1, 2012 at 08:04 pm
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The wooden cars were from the TRC and were manufactures in downtown Toronto,The TTC used them up until the early 50tys but.The Peter Witt's were two men car at first then were converted to one man cars.The coal stoves were still in use in the early 50tys.I know because I drove both of them on Bloor,Carlton,Dundas,King,Kingston Rd,Queen,Parliament tripper,Church tripper,Dufferin tripper.Drove TTC for 39 years.
Here's a wooden car on Kingston Rd when we looped at Birchmount.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/otnorot/ttc424-2.jpg[/IMG]

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