TTC Suspends Token Sales, Introduces Temporary Tickets in Advance of Fare Hike
The TTC has come up with a way to stop token hoarding in its tracks - by suspending token sales outright, immediately, and replacing them in the short-term with temporary adult tickets.
In a rare Sunday press release, the TTC made the announcement, quoting TTC Chair Adam Giambrone:
"TTC riders have been understandably frustrated by the current token restriction. By issuing temporary tickets, the TTC has found a way to allow customers to buy bulk fares in the short term. This announcement today alleviates customer frustrations, and also allows the TTC to ensure it doesn't lose, potentially, millions of dollars in much-needed revenue."
In advance of the January 2010 far hike, token sales have been spiking as riders stock-pile as many as then can at current pricing to save on transit use in the new year post-fare hike. As a result, sales were first limited to 10 per customer, then a few days later the limit was decreased to 5 tokens per customer. Long lineups at collector booths were becoming the norm, and the Toronto Transit Commission stood to lose as much as $5million in revenue in 2010 if the token stashing trend continued.
The temporary adult tickets will be sold in place of tokens starting tomorrow and through to January 2nd, 2010. This includes retailers like Shoppers Drug Mart and convenience stores. The tickets must be used by January 31st, 2010, and refunds will not be issued for any tickets that are not used prior to the end of January. Using the temporary ticket between January 3rd and 31st will require an additional $0.25 to be tossed into the fare box.
The TTC phased out adult fare tickets back in September of 2008. At this point in time, I can't be certain if the same old design (or leftover tickets from way back then) will be used, or if the TTC has designed and will print a new temporary ticket.
UPDATE (Nov. 23rd): The Globe and Mail revealed this morning that the TTC is spending $50,000 to print these new temporary tickets.
Photo: fotograf.416.
Comments (125)
When was the last time you remember hearing good news from the TTC?
It's all "you can't buy this" "you have to eat the cost of that" or "all trains stop here" "you have to take a shuttle bus to there"
Fucking garbage.
I just read this from @bradttc's twitter & could not believe it, could not fucking believe this.
TTC, you've outdone yourself this time. Truly.
I think this is a great idea. However, they should have implemented this weeks ago. Little foresight here.
Sorry, but this is brilliant - and a good idea.
People who are already stockpiling their tokens will still save them for Feb 1 anyways and buy more tickets for now until then.
People could only buy 5 at a time anyways, which means stockpiling ain't happening any more, so
this bla bla of "allows the TTC to ensure it doesn't lose, potentially, millions of dollars in much-needed revenue" is garbage.
People can do their own math and buy all the fares they think they'll need until Jan 31.
It totally solves the bullshit of having to line up every time you you use up your pittance of 5 tokens.
Tokens will start getting used again Feb 1, and then the system will get back to normal and we can focus our anger at the rest of the TTC incompetence.
Part of me hates this. Part of me thinks this is a great idea from people who get paid too much for how quickly they think. The TTC needs to get its act together.
This is a great temporary solution. Now we don't have to deal with massive lineups and shortages. It's just too bad tickets can't be used in automatic turnstiles, for those subway entrances without operators.
The TTC could have let the hoarding chaos continue, but they were actually proactive for once.
wow...unbelievable! The only positive thing I can think of is that it makes the lineup a little smaller. I would buy a metropass, but only use ttc a few times a week.
wtf? seriously? last night i went to two stations looking to get tokens so later that night i don't have to use my laundry change and so i could use the token only entrance, they were 'sold out'. luckily i got my precious 5 tokens (now probably my last) at the third station i tried.
is this for real? who are these hoarders and how can i stop them? or is this the TTC passing the buck to anonymous villains who are bankrupting the system (like those evil metropass holders)?
the TTC is my main way of getting around, but now i'm avoiding it at all costs-gotta get me some new boots.
Ah Mr. Hate...Fare increase takes effect January 3rd 2010. Paper Tickets will be allowed until Jan. 31st & MUST ADD 25cents too. TTC will not refund excess paper tickets afterwards-RE-READ the article. No point in buying the current tickets at $2.25 each to last until the end of January, only enough until you can buy tokens after January 3rd.
Now, I don't agree with the increase on the tokens at all, they should increase cash fare to $3.50 though. Leave student & senior fares alone if they buy tickets or tokens...if they pay cash, it's $3.50 too. Regular TTC riders should be rewarded. I think they should re-introduce the non-transferable Metro Pass at $99 with a yearly renewable TTC ID card (no drivers licence use) & jack up the transferable pass to $129-households that share amongst 2 or 3 people still get an excellent value. The daily pass should be $12, but with the same priviledges as using it on a Sunday. The weekly transferable Metro Pass should go up to $39.
I understand the need for the TTC to increase fares because they no longer get the 80% subsidy from the Davis days. It's not a reflection on the people that run the City or TTC, it's on the Provincial for downloading costs down to cities & municipalities. Mind you the TTC did lose revenue because of the transferable Metro Passes. I think what I propose would offset that, while rewarding regular TTC riders.
I agree the City Council & staff have made idiotic & wasteful spending moves, but not where the TTC is concerned.
I'm a bit at a lose as to why this is different than any other time the TTC has upped its fare. People have always bought extra tokens in advance of a fare increase but it seems that this time they are being treated as villainous and out to financially ruin the commission, what gives. And this "solution" has basically made token only entrances unusable and token turnstiles a thing of the past for the month of December. I'm confused why people think this is a good solution.
Ah, then. Just buy enough tickets until the end of December. Pay the extra .25 in January.
Either way, the annoying line ups are gone.
They should have a transferable metro pass and a non-transferable metro pass that costs a little less. It's not rocket science.
I am always amazed at how primitive the fare payment system is in Toronto. Lining up for five tokens... One or two card-reading turnstiles in subway stations... Beyond pathetic.
people are doing this because they are poor and can't afford the extra 25 cents.. that's telling how bad the economy is.. and this is supposed to be one the best cities to live in the world.. shame on whoever is running this city
I have voted for Adam Giambrone all three times he has run for Toronto municipal office. There will not be a fourth time.
"Toronto Transit Commission stood to lose as much as $5million in revenue in 2010 if the token stashing trend continued."
This is an assertion and TTC have never issued detailed numbers to show how this can happen.
How much is it going to cost to print tickets? How much would TTC have gained from the cashflow of thousands of token purchases it otherwise wouldn't have had? How much will the hassle this change causes cost in lost goodwill to the TTC?
Never mind all that, the Chair (a good description because successive Chairs have been sat on by TTC vested interests) is busy subsidising third level student transit when the real problem is that Ontario has some of the highest fee costs in the country and Quebec uses equalisation money to subsidise Quebec students while charging Ontario students full whack.
@fdionne - all indications are that TTC management is actually hostile to the metropass because it "loses them money".
Direct Action. Is it alive up here or have we been brow beat by subrogation? Whenever these kinds of ridiculous hikes happen in East Africa where I work, people take to the streets, especially university students. Street blocking, critical mass protests, Molotov cocktails in the muffler pipes and all. Where is the spunk in this city?? Where has civil society gone?
The next guy/gal you vote in could be a right-wing moron like Lastman, which means that it will be worse.
How much money could the TTC have saved by firing the idiot accountants that busied themselves and others with this pathetic scheme. My guess is more than $5M. Bloody TTC union, they need to be broken, hard.
As I recall, the tickets were pulled as there were many counterfeit tickets out in circulation. http://www.blogto.com/city/2008/06/ttc_employee_arrested_for_creating_and_selling_fake_tickets/
I think it's great that this issue has been resolved and tickets can now be reintroduced.....
"Using the temporary ticket between January 3rd and 31st will require an additional $0.25 to be tossed into the fare box"
Like they need the extra $0.25. They'll do anything to suck as much money out of us as possible. Pathetic
Just shows how incredibly inept the TTC is.
How many subway entrances are now effectively closed for the next 5 weeks? Spadina only has staff at 1 of its entrances. Everyone gets to do the long, long hike from Bloor to the N/S platform! Thank God I don't live in the Annex anymore.
Just for comparison, London Underground (who knows what acronym they were using then, it's now TfL) when I visited in 1990 had automated turnstiles that accepted Travelcards (machine readable paper passes, available by the day, week, month, or year) and had since 1984. TfL tendered Oyster in 98 and launched in 2003, all through a PFI. The initial Oyster contract was to have ended in 2015, by which time Toronto might (might) finally have electronic tickets beyond the horribly priced, rarely available MetroPass.
EVERY PERSON AT THE TTC NEEDS TO BE FIRED. Reconstitute it as a private company with no employee allowed to live in the City of Toronto and required to pledge to renounce all political activity. Until that day, make every employee and board member's life as unpleasant as possible.
Wow, I can't believe how nasty the comments are here. This is a perfectly reasonable fix to a growing problem. Truthfully I preferred tickets to tokens, they are much easier handle and keep separate from your change. If you must use the automatic entrances, get a metropass. The metropass is by far the best investment I make each month.
For all of your "TTC is inept" folks, please stop and think about this.
When the fare increase was announced, patrons began to buy tokens in bulk to stock up and avoid paying the new prices. The TTC had more than enough tokens in stock until this happened.
Now they have come up with a compromise with Adult Tickets that can only be used until Jan 31. That is in keeping with normal practice, except that you can't get a refund on the tickets after Jan 31.
What people fail to realize is how seriously underfunded the TTC is. When 75% of your operating costs come out of the farebox, and cutting service is not an option, the revenue has to come from somewhere.
Please pressure your MPP's and MP's to fund transit as it should be.
Some of us don't use the TTC enough to afford a Metropass. And it's nasty in here because the TTC is a total mess. They announce a fare hike then try to stop hoarding by allowing 5 tokens and NOW they announce only tickets available? Maybe I wouldn't be *as* outraged if they had planned this out reasonably. And now what? I can't use most of the entrances because I can't put in a token? Wtf! It will take me even longer to get on the subway because I'll have to use the main entrance, way further from my house and always fucking bloated with people trying to get through. Now, no one will be able to use auto turnstiles, which will just be more jamming at the ticket booth. And this is supposed to alleviate the line ups? really now.
I will be on my bike way more into the winter, but I just can't bike up to York, so I'm stuck with the TTC.
And also, what will happen? Will they have more TTC employees sitting collecting tickets outside the booths, meaning that more money will be wasted. Ughhh.
Wow. Yet another shining example of Adam Giambrone being in over his head in this job.
Junior needs to give his head a shake.
The TTC doesn't even have an electronic fare card system in the works, let alone a plan to roll it out.
The GTA has one: Presto, which--after years of tests and difficulties--should finally hit three GO stations (including Union) at the end of this month.
But the TTC, inexplicably, wants no part of it!
Hong Kong's had one for well over 10 years now. I happily await the day when the TTC can enter the late 20th century.
"They announce a fare hike then try to stop hoarding by allowing 5 tokens and NOW they announce only tickets available?"
Fine. Would you rather they had not put a token limit in place, sold-out of tokens a week ago, and not introduced a ticket alternative, instead insisting you pay full cash fare? Oh, but then that goes back to not wanting the fare hike to begin with. It sucks, but the fare hike is here, it's needed, that's life, deal with it. (Or somehow convince Harper and McGuinty to kick in proper funding.) BTW, everyone in the 905 already pays $3.00 or more for transit anyway.
Fanfreakingtastic. I don't suppose they're going to somehow introduce a way that you can use these tickets at entrances without collectors...? Yeah, I didn't think so. Thanks TTC.
Are you stupid? Of course the TTC is too blame, their employees are waaaay over payed. There are ticket booth collectors making over 100gs a year, that is just ridiculous. Just imagine what the higher ups on the board are making.
There are better transportation systems all over the world that charge less than Toronto. The TTC is a joke and everyone who supports fare increases is a joke too. You people should be ashamed of yourselves. You're the useless sheep of the world that help keep the evil powers in control.
I took a bus yesterday where the driver actually knocked into a father pushing a baby stroller - the father had right of way.
I'm glad the TTC is using it's money wisely...this guy is definitely worth his salary. NOT.
great, so how am I supposed to use my new tickets to enter unstaffed stations, like Spadina Station on north/south line?
so u dont think theres something intrinsically wrong with ttc service which results with the loss every single year?
how does this sound? i'll start a business, command a $1M salary a year and post a loss asking for the government to bail me out.
moron...
Truth, please stop talking bull**** and also stop comparing TTC to London Transport-it's a privatized mess that you can't even get from one part of London to the other on, and the Oyster card's probably over-rated.
Peter on November 22, 2009 at 6:30 PM , replying to a comment from W. K. Lis
The TTC doesn't even have an electronic fare card system in the works, let alone a plan to roll it out.
The GTA has one: Presto, which--after years of tests and difficulties--should finally hit three GO stations (including Union) at the end of this month.
But the TTC, inexplicably, wants no part of it!
Probably because it's too expensive to implement, and would require massive rewiring of most TTC stations, and would require another fare hike to pay for-the same fare hike that you're bitching about like a big bratty baby.
First, someone thinks they are funny using the name Adam Giambrone. Sorry, but most here know Adam would NEVER post a comment like that.
Rather than slam the TTC, since you all seem to have a voice here, use that voice with your MPP and MP! Serious lack of funding is to blame.
In terms of making cracks about a collector who made $100K, do you realize he worked his 75 hour max each week to do that? Most of us want to come home to our families each night and do not make $100K! If you take a look at that sunshine list, not everyone on it is a collector or operator!
The TTC is severely underfunded, and until people start to pay attention at election time, will continue to be underfunded.
You have me confused with someone else. I haven't complained about the fare hike.
In fact, I've actually PRAISED the fare hike on this very blog. I believe it's about time Toronto charged $3 for the cash fare and I don't mind at all that tokens will go up too. Where I think it gets silly is the Metropass not saving money for daily commuters, versus tokens.
I ain't bitching, I ain't big, I'm only mildly bratty and the TTC still demands I pay adult fare, so I guess I ain't a baby. Due diligence, Chuckles.
Holy shit, let me get a mop for all of the bleeding hearts on here. Guess what Toronto, if you don't like what the TTC is doing, bitching about it on a blog is not going to do anything about their actions. Write letters to Adam, Miller, your MPP and perhaps even the Feds to make your whiny voices heard. With enough critical mass, perhaps something will be done about your "concerns".
Of course Adam Giambrone wouldn't post a comment like that. In fact he wouldn't comment at all because that would imply that he cares what TTC riders and Toronto taxpayers think.
He has nothing but contempt for us and blind ambition for his Socialist agenda.
This is the WORSE idea ever!! There are hundreds of people who ride the TTC everyday, myself included, who use the "back entrance" to a station where you can only enter by token or metropass. Having to walk all the way around to the main entrance so I can enter with tickets (which is sometimes a full block or two away) is going to add an extra 10 minutes to my travel time. If this is their plan, they should have collectors at the now empty booths at all the back entrances to stations so that we can still make it to work on time.
LR, please don't suggest that. They'd probably end up paying 2 1/2 time for some lard ass to work overtime. We'd add another dozen or more Station Collectors to the $100K/yr club easily that way.
Maybe they'll still have the token machines selling single tokens at automated entrances? Anyway, for every person like you who uses an automated entrance, there are probably about 20 who get on a bus or streetcar somewhere miles from the nearest place that sells tokens / tickets. This move will help those people out.
The Washington, DC metro still has the best system I have ever seen. Riders can decide how much to put on their fare cards, add money, and reuse the card until it is no longer necessary.
On top of that, their metropasses aren't sold monthly but for life. Simply add as much money as you want, and when it is low, stock up again. Every time you swipe it, the machine says what your balance is, and on top of that, you have to swipe it upon leaving the station to prove that you paid entry fare. Brilliant.
An idea from Melbourne: http://www.thefuntheory.com/2009/11/04/fun-tram-tickets
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/publications/salarydisclosure/2009/munic09.html
find toronto transit commission station collectors - over $100,00K / yr
I work from home. Anything I can't get within walking distance, I hop in the car. I even car-pool friends.
Goodness! I thought 100k collectors is an exception, not the norm, but look at this...every collector earns more than 100k/yr. This is crazy!
Adam does care about TTC riders, and he is a TTC rider himself. For someone to come in here and impersonate him is quite insulting.
Where did you get the impression that EVERY collector made $100K? From that list? There are more than 300 collectors!
Folks, you are all very misinformed, and complaining here isn't going to change a darn thing.
First, tickets are not available yet. Tokens are still being sold. Using foul language gets you nowhere. If we are here to have an intelligent conversation, then do so without the profanity.
Insulting TTC workers isn't going to get your points across either. Operators and Collectors who make $100K are the exception, not the rule at the TTC. You all must realize these people worked both their off days, and their 75 hour maximum per week to do that. They made the choice to work those hours, nobody forced them to.
Anyone who works a 75 hour work week in the private sector, I'm sure makes a pretty decent wage. I have worked in the private sector and for any overtime I did, I got paid for it.
Funny that someone impersonates Adam Giambrone, and then Adam Giambrone impersonates tracey!
No one at the TTC should make more than $40k, and toll collectors should make Wal-Mart cashier wages. It's not complex work.
As for "omg they work lots of hours" - move to the private sector or run your own business. If you don't work 100 hours, you're done. You get paid for 37.5 and the bonus is you get to keep your job.
End public employee overtime. End public employee pensions. End public employee benefits. Government jobs should be last resorts for the desperate to build a resume to get real jobs. No one should be able to work for any government for more than 4 years out of 10. Preference should be given to the homeless and released convicts for maintenance/construction jobs.
The TTC is an abomination. Electronic fare cards will let us fire EVERY SINGLE BOOTH OPERATOR. Thus it will pay for itself rapidly.
I do not speak for Adam Giambrone. Adam is very capable of speaking for himself, however, seems to me he's a little busy these days trying to cut money out of the budget so we can carry on.I simply was not amused that someone would impersonate Adam.
Electronic fare cards will not eliminate collectors. Perhaps you should apply for a job at the TTC and do the job. So many people think we have it easy. When you go to work, do you get there at 9 and leave at 5? My day is 12-1/2 hours long. I report at 5:19 and finish at 5:42 tonight. Do I complain? Not on your life! I happen to enjoy my job, even if it can be thankless at times.
It would cost millions to change the fare system. Millions that the TTC has been asked to cut from its capital budget for 2010.
Eliminate overtime? Okay, no problem, but then you will complain when your bus or streetcar doesn't show up. You won't like how crowded the subway is because they didn't let someone work to get you home safely.
I have worked in the private sector. I made decent money. I have also had my own business and know the hours it takes to make it work. So please don't tell me that government jobs should be a last resort. Without the jobs, where do you think you'll get service?
Apparently anyone who disagrees with Tracey is "misinformed". It's that kind of smug "I know better than all of you" attitude that has everyone so pissed off with Adam Giambrone, David Miller, and the TTC.
amen. at least it would address the issue of traveling 40 kms and paying 3 dollars vs traveling 5 kms and being charged the same price
Tracy wrote:
"When you go to work, do you get there at 9 and leave at 5? My day is 12-1/2 hours long." and "I have worked in the private sector and for any overtime I did, I got paid for it."
It is clear to me from these two statements that you haven't worked in the private sector any time in the recent past. I think you would be surprised by the number of people who presently work 12 hour days, do not get paid overtime, and get paid less than $90K per year.
Although I think he's in way over his head, I don't entirely blame Giambrone for the current state of the TTC. The TTC has been underfunded and mismanaged for decades. For whatever reasons, it seems as though all of the poor decisions made (or good decisions not made) over the past 40 years are coming to a head now, and Giambrone has had the bad luck to be the one left holding the bag.
Issue #1 has to be the chronic underfunding of the system by the various levels of government. In most countries, the largest city isn't treated with the type of overt disdain and neglect that Toronto receives.
However, even if the funding issue were addressed, the TTC can't be trusted to spend the money properly. The downtown relief line, a loop of some sort which connects the Yonge/University/Spadina line, an airport link, A subway under Eglinton - any of these should have been a higher priority than the Sheppard stump or the subway to Vaughn (aka nowhere).
Next, there's the issue of the unions and inflated labour costs. I am not a reactionary, right-wing, "smash-the-unions" type, but as someone who rides the TTC every day, I come face to face with people who simply don't provide any value. Why in a city like Toronto, in 2009, are we still paying people to sit in a booth and make change? I don't care if they're making 60K or 100K, it's simply ridiculous.
Something is going to have to change, and soon, because there's a real risk of the TTC alienating its ridership, and this upcoming fare increase is going to drive a lot of people who take it voluntarily, back into their cars. Toronto needs to grow a pair, get the money it deserves from the province and the Feds, and then formulate some type of comprehensive vision for itself to ensure that the money isn't just thrown into the gaping black hole of waste and inefficiency that currently exists.
In the past little while, I've encountered a level of anger and frustration among riders, myself included, that I've never experienced before, and every day it seems there's another announcement or screwup which just manages to rile people up even more.
Colin, since I work for TTC, I just may know some things that you don't. I don't pretend our system is perfect, however, I have sat here for two days watching everyone complain. The only solution seems to be the Presto card.
Rather than complain, why not try brainstorming, and perhaps someone could e-mail Adam at City Hall with some viable options here.
FYI, I'll give you some background on my past, since you think I've been out of the private sector for so long.
My working career began in 1979. Up until 2001, I worked in the private sector. The recession in the early 90's saw me out of work more than I was working. I would always be the last one hired, first one to be laid off. I took whatever jobs I could to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. I even worked in the Taxi industry driving a cab! That is not an easy wage to survive on. There were years where I made maybe $12,000 if I was lucky.
j-rock, thanks so much for realizing that the TTC didn't get to where it is today overnight! Yes, Adam is the one left holding the bag. Nobody has given him any credit whatsoever for the service increases we have seen, and trust me, as an operator, I would love to see even more.
If you remember, the Sheppard and Eglinton subway lines were supposed to be built until the Harris Conservatives came to power. It was he who screamed the loudest (Mel Lastman) who got the $1B dollar subway to nowhere.
Hindsight is always 20/20, however, I am a firm believer that subways should have been built in the 60s and 70s to deal with the growth in this city. It was deemed too costly then, and is way out of reach for the TTC now.
I like your thinking, and at least you came up with solutions, rather than bash the TTC. I prefer to have dialogue with people who chose to inform themselves on the issues.
I've said it before, but nobody wants to listen. The TTC is severely underfunded.
"Up until 2001, I worked in the private sector. "
Like I said originally, you haven't worked in the private sector recently. If you did, you would know that there are plenty of people working 60-70 hours per week these days who do not get paid overtime and who are not making anywhere near $100K (this is in reference to your assertion that "Anyone who works a 75 hour work week in the private sector, I'm sure makes a pretty decent wage."). Anyone in the private sector who IS making $100K for 60-75 hours of work is also likely doing something a little more complex than sitting in a glass box collecting fares...
There really isn't much point in going any further with this discussion. I have plenty of friends who work in the private sector, so I do know they work long hours. Most of the people I know who work those kind of hours are making well over $100K, and no they don't work at the TTC.
Let's think about that person in the box, shall we? Everyone seems to think they just "sit there". Nobody thinks about the thousands of dollars they are responsible for. Nobody thinks that when they are short cash, it's deducted from them. Nobody thinks they do anything. It is rare that a collector makes $100K. Everyone needs to get their focus off of this.
What we need a viable solutions to the problem, and all I've seen so far is a lot of people complaining! Employees make suggestions to make things more cost effective all the time, but the public doesn't hear about that. Now is the time for the public to step up and be heard...at Queen's Park and in Ottawa.
does anyone know how much revenue ttc receives from all of the advertising located on streetcars/buses/subway stations?
Good question, Natalie! Let me see if I can't find out the answer for you. I do know the advertiser pays for the decal, and pays to have the bus painted back to TTC colours. I'll see if the other information is available somewhere.
I'm not prepared to say somebody makes too much money at a job I have no idea how to do myself, but, the sheer number of TTC employees earning over 6 figures is simply out of whack.
Indefensible.
Tracey, people have made suggestions but you refuse to listen and continue to accuse them of complaining.
One suggestion that was made was to automate fare collection. Contrary to what you have written, there were at least 21 ticket collectors who made over $100K (and from what I've heard from a friend who works at TTC, others who try to keep their earnings just under $100K to avoid having their names published). $2.1M dollars paid out to just 21 people...you don't think $2.1M would be a good start for implementing an automated collection scheme?
As far as the "nobody thinks about the thousands of dollars...when they are short cash, it's deducted from them...". The same could be said for the cashiers at Walmart or Best Buy and you don't see any of them raking in the dough.
Everyone wants to eliminate collectors and get a new fare system. It will cost millions of dollars to implement, but it is about 6 or 7 years off. It will not eliminate fare collectors. That is the only suggestion that I have seen.
Anyone who works at WalMart or Best Buy is more than welcome to apply for a job at the TTC.
You don't apply to be a collector. You start out driving to get your foot in the door. After that, you can choose to leave the Union or not.
It still does not solve the operating shortfall.
Natalie..got the answer you are looking for...$16M a year, with a good year it being $22M. They go out to market for public quotes and the next time will be 2011.
Way to miss the point entirely.
Based on the stellar display of comprehension you have just demonstrated, I'm betting the recession wasn't the only reason you were the last one hired, first one to be laid off in the 90s.
Tracey, can you please explain how automating fare collection "will not eliminate fare collectors"? If not, what is the job description?
They will eliminate tasks, not jobs.
This is a public union. People do not just get fired because of a silly thing such as a job becoming obsolete.
hmm. i bought 5 tokens today at finch, right next to them there was a nice stack of tickets present. (plus a significant line up of course)
Toll collectors are frequently regular drivers that need modified work due to injury or illness.
You know, students can apply to be toll collectors (among other jobs) during the summer between the months of May and August. Would you still be complaining if the TTC got your little punk a decent job?
Of course you work for the TTC! No one else would defend the indefensible.
Adam Giambrone won't response to anyone who doesn't offer him a political handjob.
I started buying tokens in bulk when the TTC said they'd only sell me 5 tokens at a time. I didn't "hoard" tokens, I simply didn't want to deal with the rude, over paid, (23 ticket booth collectors make more than $100k a year, check the ontario civil servant wages page!), ticket booth people 4X as much. The TTC is just being vindictive, they caused the hoarding by being rude and nasty.
I hate to respond to this James, since everyone thinks I am so wrong about things here, but to answer the question...yes. Each and every customer service complaint is dealt with. They are sent to the appropriate division, where they can find out who was where on the particular day and time.
Hmmmm, why is someone who works for the TTC trolling websites and posting during work hours? Is this where our fare hike dollars are going?
Hmmmmmmmmmm did you ever think it was my day off? Did you stop and think maybe I'm home sick? Did you think maybe I'm home on my split?
I am not trolling websites. What I am trying to do is dispell some myths. Obviously it isn't working very well, since everyone loves to attack us TTC workers.
Hmmmm, apparently absenteeism ranges between 6% and 13% in the TTC, depending on the department. The rate is also climbing. 13% is ludicrous...6% is merely insane. So really you're telling me that more than 1 in 10 TTC employees is legitimately sick on any given day?
That's bull.
Just another way the TTC's unionized employees have it too easy for doing too little work...all on our dime.
When we can have an intelligent conversation, I'll speak more. For now, I think I'll continue to read the propaganda.
I will continue to read this site, from my home computer. We can't access it from the TTC computers. They are used for business..imagine that!
What many of you don't know about me is that I happen to enjoy my job. I truly believe that you get what you give, and I make sure that I am pleasant and helpful to my passengers. Many of you here have lumped me in with the "big bad apples" at the TTC. That couldn't be further from the truth.
I sit on numerous committee's at work, which at times, requires me to work on my own time...OH MY you all say...a TTC worker doing something on their own time? How can that be? It can be when you believe in what you are doing.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to talk trash on this website. I've been accused of "trolling". A troll I am not.
I thought perhaps I could give you an inside look at things. Obviously, none of you wanted to hear that. So, continue to bash away, it changes nothing.
Only when you stand up for what you believe in, take the proper steps and do something constructive will you succeed. If you all believe that the operators like the idea of a fare hike you are wrong. We don't implement them, but we are the first people you take it out on.
Think about how you treat us. Some of you do respect us, others treat us pretty badly. I never let the bad passengers ruin my day. 1 out of the thousands I carry is not worth it.
I will be hear to read and monitor. I will reply when I feel it is necessary.
Oh, and one last thing...since you all seem so envious of the jobs we have I have a suggestion...APPLY!
"Hmmmmmmmmmm did you ever think it was my day off? Did you stop and think maybe I'm home sick? Did you think maybe I'm home on my split?
I am not trolling websites. What I am trying to do is dispell some myths. Obviously it isn't working very well, since everyone loves to attack us TTC workers."
Tracy, a majority of people in Toronto do not like TTC, its workers, and the union for reasons that are obvious and already well-expressed above.
I'd say most of us would simply want a subway system that is convenient, adequate, and reasonably priced. However, these expectations are often not met. It's not like many of us are asking for much either...
Then of course, there's the issues with those wildcat strikes and the boasting about TTC's importance to the city. I still remember that ad (sponsored by the union?) about how TTC workers each worth a million to the city (i.e. a bus driver can be more important than a senior research scientist?). It is as if the management and employees feel that they are the most important people in the city due to the simple fact that they can cause havoc for not fulfilling their responsibilities.
Compared to Hong Kongers, we Torontonians are already a relatively tolerant bunch. Should one of TTC's infamous 'signalling problems' occur in HK's MTR, they would've cried for blood all over the newspaper and have some people fired. But conversely, the MTR received very few public scrutiny (or government subsidy) compared to the TTC. I guess that says much.
By the way Tracy, can you answer the following question:
"Tracey, can you please explain how automating fare collection "will not eliminate fare collectors"? If not, what is the job description?".
I am interested in the answer too.
We've had one wild cat strike that I am aware of. The rest were legal strikes. So please strike that off your list.
The majority of people don't like the TTC or it's workers? I find that difficult to believe. We provide a service.
Again, as I have said, we deal with lack funding at the Provincial and Federal levels. I'm not saying our system is perfect, but I've been to other cities, and I'd take the TTC over their system any day.
The signal problems happen why? Capital projects which get cut due to budget shortfalls. The subways are stopped for many reasons, which the public is not aware of.
Sorry you feel the way you do...but I'm proud to be part of the TTC.
The job description for a collector, I do not know. I don't work in the Collectors section of the company.
An automated system will still need people present to provide assistance should something go wrong with the automation. No system is perfect.
"We've had one wild cat strike that I am aware of. The rest were legal strikes. So please strike that off your list."
If I remember correctly, there was one a few years back. And then... there was another that involved stranding people in the street on a Friday night. Even for legal strikes, it still can legitimately cause a great deal of anger in public, especially if the purpose of the strike is not something perceived as agreeable by many.
Take the civic worker strike for example - the streets stunk for weeks and that's during a time when WHO declared H1N1 a pandemic.
"The majority of people don't like the TTC or it's workers? I find that difficult to believe. We provide a service."
A service that is paid by we civillians through fare and taxes. It's not free and you aren't doing any charity... except for the united way (and I hope those guys aren't getting paid for selling pizza).
"Again, as I have said, we deal with lack funding at the Provincial and Federal levels. I'm not saying our system is perfect, but I've been to other cities, and I'd take the TTC over their system any day."
One can get a D and boast about those who score F's. Does that make him better than the worst? Definitely. How will he compare with those who scored B's then? Now, many of us aren't exactly expecting the TTC to be perfect either (it's not close to anything that's close to perfect).
"The signal problems happen why? Capital projects which get cut due to budget shortfalls. The subways are stopped for many reasons, which the public is not aware of."
I'd agree that not all "signalling problems" are something the TTC should take responsibility for (i.e. crazy people jumping off the tracks?). In fact, it might help your case if their causes are explained individually on the website rather than keeping them secret.
As for budget shortfalls and such... I wonder how much of that can be blamed on the province. After all, the TTC management has its share of gross miscalculations that led to tremendous waste of money.
Lastly, many judge the TTC employees in basically the same way as how they are being judged by their clients, audiences, and superiors. In other words, it's difficult to expect a lot of sympathy for failure and/or ineffectiveness.
The strike at midnight on a Friday night was legal. The membership voted to reject a contract, which an arbitrator later said we had to live with.
The civic workers have nothing to do with this conversation, except that they are unionized employees as well. So, I suppose you will tell me the public hates them too?
TTC workers are taxpayers too, so in essence, we contribute our share of taxes to public transit.
I don't think the TTC wants to explain every time someone has killed themselves in front of a subway train. It is a traumatic enough event for the train operator.
I'm not looking for sympathy, Al. I just don't like being lumped in with the bad apples.
"The strike at midnight on a Friday night was legal. The membership voted to reject a contract, which an arbitrator later said we had to live with."
Ah, my mistake. But if my memory serves, the strike occurred without a manditory 48 hour warning and after an agreement was reached between the management and the union. Even if it is legal, do you find it a inappropriate use of worker rights and that the public has a legitimate reason of being angry? Yes, I am aware that some TTC workers didn't want to strike, but what's your take on this?
"The civic workers have nothing to do with this conversation, except that they are unionized employees as well. So, I suppose you will tell me the public hates them too?"
No, I only meant to point out another example as to how unionized workers abuse their priviliges to strike legally. I wouldn't say I dislike them... not until some more major hiccups occur at least. However, I'd say they are pretty lucky. If the city was hit with a highly transmissible epidemic durng that time (which is entirely possible), guess where the blame would fall.
"TTC workers are taxpayers too, so in essence, we contribute our share of taxes to public transit."
That's irrelevant to my comment. TTC is a service that all of us, *especially* riders, pay for. So, I don't see a reason to be grateful if the quality of services is inadequate.
"I'm not looking for sympathy, Al. I just don't like being lumped in with the bad apples."
Not everyone here proclaimed that you are a bad TTC employee. Perhaps you are a good TTC employee that provides good services and makes good decisions. But, if you go about to disagree with every criticism about TTC and its employees (justified or not), it's hard for outsiders to respect your opinions on this matter. And of course, since you are posting here, I'd presume part of your intent is to be listened to.
"The job description for a collector, I do not know. I don't work in the Collectors section of the company.
An automated system will still need people present to provide assistance should something go wrong with the automation. No system is perfect."
Nobody said an automated fare system is perfect. However, I'd say the first and foremost advantage of it is that it virtually eliminates the issue of counterfeit tokens/tickets/freeriders.
Technicians and a couple customer service officers will still be needed, but the amount of personnel should be cut short by quite a bit. There should also be cost-savings in terms of materials too. The MTR, for instance, reuses all its one-way tickets and smard cards. They don't need to print new tickets, mint new tokens, and forge new day/weekly/metropasses.
Nonetheless, TTC currently doesn't have the necessary funds to do so partly because it has squandered and is squandering its money on ill-fated projects.
Bob Kinnear promised 48 hours notice...it is not mandatory under any collective agreement. He broke that promise to protect his members. He didn't want any operator being assaulted once the word was out we were striking. Did I agree with the decision? I can honestly say no, but I understood why the decision was made.
My take on the agreement, while I voted against it, it was for personal reasons, which I discussed with Bob Kinnear. In hindsight, I made a huge mistake, but I can admit that and did after the fact.
Service increases have taken place. Sadly, it is not enough in my mind. Weekend service is terrible here in the east. I don't know about other parts of the city.
With the new Metropass, counterfeiting is down drastically. I do know changes were made to the Student/Senior and Child tickets to make it more difficult.
What we deal with in terms of fraudulent activity amazes even me. I remember growing up you didn't dare argue with the bus driver. You didn't produce a student card, you paid adult fare. People have children over the age of 2 and board without paying, yet if you ask them how old the child is and tell them they have to pay, miraculously they produce a Child ticket. Turnstile jumpers have become the norm. Sadly, police can't be at every station.
There are many ways the TTC can change. Nothing is perfect, but to try and let people know from an insider point of view how things are, and then be told I'm wrong is a little difficult to swallow.
All I hoped to do was educate people. Do I understand their frustration at the fare hike? I do, but then the Mayor never should have frozen fares this year.
The system is sadly lacking in terms of funding, and with 75% of operating costs coming from the farebox, the City is left to fund the remaining 25%, along with all the capital projects.
Yes, that particular strike was a big mistake and it will hopefully serve as a lesson to the union. In a way, the strikers were very lucky. If some women were raped at that night because they were stranded on the streets (especially in less safe neighbourhoods), you can imagine how much more anger there would've been.
I have no idea of the counterfeiting situation occurring in TTC. My observation is that one can often very easily get away with not paying the necessary fares if he passes through the gate next to the ticket collector. Often times, the guys in the booths do not study what's being put in the box (especially if they are socializing and having fun with each other). And indeed, I've seen lots of people getting away with dumping a few quarters into the box without a hassle. So in theory, I'd say one can also very easily get away in dumping a look-alike ticket inside a fare box. But again, we outsiders do not have the statistics.
As for fradulent activities (beside what I discussed earlier), it is very hard to prevent with the current system. When ticket collectors go home at night, I've seen people with metropasses waiting in stations offering others a swipe for 1 dollar. Conversely, I've also seen bus drivers and ticket collectors giving free rides to everyone (even if the riders insisted to pay) during a service disruption or after a strike (expression of remorse at the company's expense?). These things go both ways. And again, a credit-based system (with source/destination tracking) can resolve much of this.
I don't think government subsidy is really the only way a subway system can achieve success. A lot of subway systems out there are very rich and do not rely on government aid. For those, they often are very aggressive and effective in marketing themselves out (i.e. renting out lots of large retail spaces, releasing brand products, collaborating with other businesses). At the same time, their employees generally have far less luxurous contracts in comparison.
The very last point, in particular, is something outsiders like me think of whenever the fares rise. Should a company continually offer extremely generous salaries and benefits to its workers if it's in financial crisis? I know a lot of private companies out there wouldn't hesitate to cut wages. At the same time we've also seen how the GM's worker unions behaved when it was on the verge of collapse. What do you think the public should see in this?
I'm not saying the strike was a mistake, Al. The membership voted to reject the contract. In hindsight, I would have voted for it. I understand why the service was cut at midnight. Sadly, the media kept reporting that it was expected to be ratified.
The cost to the TTC due to fraudulant tickets and Metropasses was incredible. The fear of assault for operators, which continues to rise is at least 1 per day. That is one too many in my book. A Metropass cannot be swiped again for 15 minutes after the initial swipe. I don't know why people are entering stations once the collector goes home, as the station is supposed to be locked up. When you see us giving "free" rides, it is usually because our farebox isn't working. Many times I've had to do that. It puzzles customers and they insist oh paying. The problem is, when the mechanism at the top is closed, their token, ticket or cash has nowhere to go. I had a customer board my vehicle after the wild cat and tell me he wasn't going to pay that day. I didn't argue with him.
Government subsidies, in most cities throughout North America, are the norm. We are the least funded system out there. In terms of salaries, senior levels of management at the TTC have not had their salaries frozen. We are under contract, and therefore, our hourly wage is not frozen.
We just had our jobs evaluated by a independent arbitrator, who agreed with our wage scale for the jobs we do. I know we make it look rather easy, but it truly isn't. We have no room for error in our jobs. We could easily harm someone is we are too complacent. Salaries have not risen as quickly as fares have in recent years. This contract we got 9% in total (over 3 years), and the commission raised fares the first year, and now as we enter our 3rd year, they are raising fares over 10%. It is not our wages, which everyone loves to blame.
I truly do encourage anyone who thinks the job is easy to apply. If you can get through the training, and survive the first year, it would be interesting to hear what folks have to say.
Random, but throwing it out there. I hate that they have a student fare and metropass price for HIGHSCHOOL students rather than university students like myself. We are the ones having to pay for school and other necessities until we're ridiculously broke, not the high school kids.
Kate, I think this is something they are changing with the new fare changes. University students will also get the same discount as younger students: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/11/17/ttc-fares-increase531.html
BTW Tracey, for all the defending you do of Adam Giambrone, I think Christopher Hume got the situation spot on from the perspective of the riders: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/ttc/article/731531--hume-ttc-job-no-mayor-s-office-ticket-for-giambrone?bn=1
BTW sunnyday....while I may defend Adam, I never said he was perfect. As TTC Chair, he is a regular transit user. I think that is very important. He understands transit issues. He also, for the most part, thinks before he speaks. I think he has done a good job as Chair.
What I have been doing is defending the TTC and its workers. Each time fares go up, everyone wants to blame the workers.
Many times the fact that collectors made over $100K has been mentioned, yet not all of them did. They have to work many hours to get there. They fill in for those that are sick.
TTC may not be perfect in some folks eyes, but I'd take our system over others any day.
@Al:
If you love Hong Kong so much, why not go and live there then, instead of making things worse by bitching like a big baby? Tracy has explained to you what happens, and you still act like a whiny moron who needs his diaper changed. Listen to what Tracey is saying for a change, first!
And again, a credit-based system (with source/destination tracking) can resolve much of this.
Show the TTC, city government, and the provincial government the tree with the money on it to refurbish all of the stations to handle these RFID card systems, and then there will be a system implemented. Until then, Transit City is all you're going to get for now. Deal with it, or get out of Toronto.
Nonetheless, TTC currently doesn't have the necessary funds to do so partly because it has squandered and is squandering its money on Nonetheless, TTC currently doesn't have the necessary funds to do so partly because it has squandered and is squandering its money on ill-fated projects.
Oh, so building new transit lines amount to 'ill-fated projects'. Yeah, I see.
"I'm not saying the strike was a mistake, Al. The membership voted to reject the contract. In hindsight, I would have voted for it. I understand why the service was cut at midnight. Sadly, the media kept reporting that it was expected to be ratified."
It was a deal that was agreed upon - a generous one either. I guess the media and great many of us grossly underestimated the greed involved. Besides, the very notion of stranding people on the streets at night without forewarning is grossly irresponsible. I don't see any way you can justify that.
At the same time, why would Bob Kinnear be afraid of people assaulting TTC workers for the decision? If it's such a justified cause of striking, I don't see why he should fear that? With such a precedent set, should we even be expecting any sort of warning from the TTC worker union before the workers strike?
"The cost to the TTC due to fraudulant tickets and Metropasses was incredible [...] A Metropass cannot be swiped again for 15 minutes after the initial swipe."
Again, an electronic credit system would've rendered much of these issues moot.
"I don't know why people are entering stations once the collector goes home, as the station is supposed to be locked up."
The entrances I go to usually have no ticket collector after 18:00 or 19:00. There are also times when ticket collectors like to disappear for an extended period of time without locking their gates.
"When you see us giving "free" rides, it is usually because our farebox isn't working. Many times I've had to do that. It puzzles customers and they insist oh paying. The problem is, when the mechanism at the top is closed, their token, ticket or cash has nowhere to go."
Fare box not working. Nice. Again, this is another failure of the current primitive system.
"In terms of salaries, senior levels of management at the TTC have not had their salaries frozen. We are under contract, and therefore, our hourly wage is not frozen."
And again, that's why it's outrageous. While the system fails to balance its books, its employees, at all levels, are still given fat wages that are greatly above market rates. Why should we citizens need to pay for such incompetence?
"We just had our jobs evaluated by a independent arbitrator, who agreed with our wage scale for the jobs we do. I know we make it look rather easy, but it truly isn't. We have no room for error in our jobs."
Indeed? I am sorry... I've seen enough slopiness from your colleagues to really take this claim seriously. Granted, the technicians, operators, and engineers do require great precision and accuracy in their job, but they aren't really the ones who people usually complain about.
In addition, a lot of jobs out there have little room for error. This includes taxi drivers, carpenters, electricians... and so on.
"Salaries have not risen as quickly as fares have in recent years. This contract we got 9% in total (over 3 years), and the commission raised fares the first year, and now as we enter our 3rd year, they are raising fares over 10%. It is not our wages, which everyone loves to blame."
I'd say 9% over 3 years is very nice. The fact that they didn't reverse that or make a few wage cuts is very generous given how that money comes from us.
I truly do encourage anyone who thinks the job is easy to apply. If you can get through the training, and survive the first year, it would be interesting to hear what folks have to say.
"TTC may not be perfect in some folks eyes, but I'd take our system over others any day."
Will you take the MTR system over the TTC?
You get service on what? I am an operator. I don't make schedules, and there are many reasons why service can be delayed that the public does not know about. So, I'm sorry if I don't know what service you are talking about.
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