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Public Urination Stirs Tensions on Dundas West

Posted by Debbie Pacheco / September 15, 2009

Public UrinationFung Lee moved into her storefront home on Dundas West near Brock Avenue with her husband five years ago. "We liked the rawness of the neighbourhood," she told me. But Lee didn't realize just how raw the area could get.

"We'll be eating outside [in the backyard] and all of a sudden we'll see someone going in the corner on the other side of the fence. It's kind of gross... and the smell!" said Lee, whose yard is connected to a laneway near one of the local sports bars.

Public UrinationLee believes public urination, or "P.U." as she likes to call it, is a bigger issue in the neighbourhood and involves the number and quality of sports bars.

According to a marketing study released last year by the Dundas West Business Improvement Area, there are 12 bars, mainly sports bars, concentrated on a few blocks of Dundas West.

Public UrinationSam Santos, who manages JC Pimentel Photography, located beside a laneway, told me he's spoken to sports bar owners and the police, but nothing has changed. The sensor lights he added in the laneway deterred some, while another business owner got tired of opening the store to the stench of urine and installed a camera at the front door.

"It's a concern too, because the laneway is close to a school. School started again and more kids use that laneway to get to Dundas. They don't need to see some man peeing back there," said Santos.

Mario Duarte, whose Euro Sports Bar and Cafe has been in the area for 10 years, agrees there is a problem but doesn't think patrons of sports bars are the only ones peeing in public.

"Some of them are my patrons hanging out outside. Some are just people walking around. When you have to go, you have to go," said Duarte.

Duarte describes his public washrooms as decent. I asked to see them. They weren't the prettiest rooms, but they were clean. "Sometimes I have to mop it up off the floor, but yes, they use them," he said of his clientele.

Public Urination"I think it has something to do with the smoking ban," said Lubo Brezina, Lee's husband, a furniture designer who displays his work in the storefront window of their home. "People come out to smoke and then they have to pee. They have a smoke in their mouth and they're not going to go back inside."

Toronto is planning to install 20 self-cleaning public toilets. When asked whether their neighbourhood should be slated for one, many were skeptical it would solve their problem, especially when potential inebriation and payment for public toilet use are coupled.

Public UrinationI sympathize with businesses and residents over this issue. Peeing in public is nasty for everyone. But I also fear the way some frame the conversation, mixing their own "isms" and stereotypes with legitimate complaints about patrons coming from predominantly Portuguese male sports bars who pee in public. The owner of an upscale bakery, a recent addition to the area thanks to cheap rent, thinks the sports bars are a stain on a neighbourhood trying to rebrand itself. One of the "unsavory" nearby sports bar practices she described was the cooking smelly sardines (a Portuguese staple), in an outdoor wood stove.

I guess she missed two points of irony: That she moved to a predominantly Portuguese neighbourhood; and that she was talking to a Portuguese-Canadian who occasionally barbeques smelly sardines herself.

Discussion

53 Comments

Bubba / September 15, 2009 at 09:29 am
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Why not just put a big honking sign up in the laneway saying
THIS IS A NO PEE ZONE! YOU ARE BEING WATCHED! NO PEE! NO WAY! NO HOW!
LovesToRainYellow / September 15, 2009 at 09:38 am
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I like to pee in the alley...its not a laneway...its an alley. Alleys are good for homeless people, grafitti and pee. Get used it or move to the burbs u yuppy douchebags!
Meg / September 15, 2009 at 09:48 am
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If it's a chronic issue, then that's something completely different, but if you move to an area for the "rawness" of it, then expect some of that to end up in your back yard.

I guess let the re-branding begin. I can't wait until the entire core becomes gentrified and unaffordable and the only "gritty" neighbourhoods left are my home areas in Scarborough. I give it a few years.
Patrick Bateman / September 15, 2009 at 09:49 am
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you can smell this place from halton county
Hamish Grant / September 15, 2009 at 09:52 am
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Hehe it's not just Dundas West - I live two doors up from a laneway that is used as a urinal stop so regularly that a couple of the businesses' back doors on the laneway have had their lower hinges rust right off due to nightly pee baths.. Further along the laneway someone put a 'please don't poo here' sign on their back fence gate. We've experienced that lovely surprise in our back carport as well. We find a lot of fun stuff back there, like used needles, safe injection kits, condoms, vials, used toilet paper and of course miscellaneous garbage. And it's not just rummies, either - people stumbling home from clubland use the laneway as well. Heck I was sitting out on my porch one night and saw a foursome come ambling along, laughing and drunk - one of them lives up the street and I guess she was inviting friends back... so not one but two of them go take a pee in the alleyway while the others wait... Her house was only six doors up from the alley! WTF people.
J / September 15, 2009 at 10:14 am
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Smelly sardines? Grilled sardines are delicious. Has she been to Chinatown? The smells there are downright disgusting, and there haven't been any reports of RATS loose in restaurants in Little Portugal Don't expect the neighbourhood to change to cater to your likes and dislikes. You moved in there so you knew what to expect.
As for the pee. Its called a hose, use it.
JAMB / September 15, 2009 at 10:17 am
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move to the burbs you yuppie?

Oh i get it.. once you get south of Steeles the rules and laws change? You are now allowed to litter, piss and poop on the sidewalk because you are in the 'city.'
Im surprised you can afford a computer with that trashy mindset.
JAMB replying to a comment from LovesToRainYellow / September 15, 2009 at 10:18 am
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move to the burbs you yuppie? Oh i get it.. once you get south of Steeles the rules and laws change? You are now allowed to litter, piss and poop on the sidewalk because you are in the 'city.' Im surprised you can afford a computer with that trashy mindset.
ddt replying to a comment from LovesToRainYellow / September 15, 2009 at 10:27 am
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No excuses for living like a dog....pee at home, if you don't have a home,jump off a bridge and let tax payers enjoy their property in peace not piss...residents should petition their local counsellors and do something about this....but it is true, if you live downtown you really need to expect every exposure possible...another thing that ticks me off is people in chinatown that blow their noses against walls , or this overwhelmingneed they have to hork, like jesus christ people go to the f-ing doctor or something and learn some manners..
yuppiesout replying to a comment from LovesToRainYellow / September 15, 2009 at 10:27 am
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well said LovesToRain... friggin' yuppies
Fifty50 replying to a comment from J / September 15, 2009 at 10:32 am
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Oh sure, encourage the Portuguese to hose down their sidewalks even more!
Eric replying to a comment from ddt / September 15, 2009 at 10:34 am
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When I'm given the choice of peeing in an alley or jumping off a bridge I usually choose pee.
Jack / September 15, 2009 at 10:38 am
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Easy solution: http://christopherwalkeniswatchingyoupee.com/

Or if it gets really bad: http://www.christopherwalkeniswatchingyoupee.com/jgiwyp/
Ratpick / September 15, 2009 at 10:44 am
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I lived off Queen West for a decade. Believe me, the oh-so-clever gallery crowd's piss stinks too.

ddt replying to a comment from Eric / September 15, 2009 at 10:47 am
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ok fratboy
Webcam It / September 15, 2009 at 10:56 am
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Put up a live webcam of the alleyway. Problem solved.
Sean / September 15, 2009 at 12:01 pm
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Two great ideas here.

1 - The horn.

2 - Live webcam.

The horn could be attached to motion detector light too. They'll pee in their pants as the lights and horn goes off at once. ha ha

The live webcam is a cool idea as well. Post the URD address near where they pee.

You can hide a remote radio and leave it on mute. As they approach, de-mute the audio.

If they pee on your property at night near bushes, then get some razor blade wire fences and hope to hell they'll trip face down. They'll get charged with trespassing while you'll be happy that you have no 'raccoons' on your property.

*All information above is intentionally for entertainment purposes only*
lovestopeeandpuke / September 15, 2009 at 12:10 pm
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i have peed in an alley many of a time in many parts of the city. when you got to go you got to, nature will always win.
G / September 15, 2009 at 12:12 pm
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I live in an apartment overlooking an alley. When I see someone pissing, my usual reaction is to yell "Pisser! Pisser!" from my balcony. I don't catch everyone, of course, but it sure is fun watching them try to zip up mid stream.
C D / September 15, 2009 at 12:17 pm
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Webcast them, take a still from the video and then create a "Wall of shame NEXT to the alley... if you did it in the alley I'd pee on the pictures myself :)
EM / September 15, 2009 at 12:27 pm
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I would be SO tempted to sit at my window with a bucket of cold water and wait for public pee-ers if I lived in an apartment with this problem. There's no debate -- that's just straight up gross.
G Smith replying to a comment from Sean / September 15, 2009 at 12:40 pm
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"If they pee on your property at night near bushes, then get some razor blade wire fences and hope to hell they'll trip face down."

Your violent fantasies are far more disgusting than anyone's pee, and your disclaimer doesn't change that.
Jessica replying to a comment from Fifty50 / September 15, 2009 at 12:48 pm
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Haha! Too true, Fifty50! I live in a Portuguese neighbourhood, and luckily I do not have to deal with the urination problem where I am, however I do have to deal with the hosing problem. Very irritating for anyone who has an sort of eco- conscience.
WTF PEOPLE / September 15, 2009 at 12:54 pm
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What a bunch of assholes.
Go find a toilet or at least a park.
Don't piss on other people's property.
End of story, jerkos.
Matt / September 15, 2009 at 12:54 pm
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Nobody likes public urination, and public pee-ers should stop.

BUT... "Boo-hoo, I moved here for the urban grit, but it's TOO gritty! Let's tear down the sports bars that have been here for decades and put in some organic espresso bars and overpriced knick-knack shops. That'll fix things up. Boo-hoo."

At least, that's my impression of the complainant in this case. Is it fair? I dunno. But that's my impression.
Johnny Cash 2.0 / September 15, 2009 at 12:56 pm
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I hope these Portuguese sports enthusiasts keep pissing all over the neighbourhood, at least that way the yuppie dinks will think twice about infiltrating and adapting it to fit their own urban chic lifestyles. If you don't like piss and fish, move to the suburbs and spawn your children their.
Jeremy / September 15, 2009 at 01:16 pm
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Why not put in a urinal or a drain with signage or something in between? Something that at least gets rid of the urine so it doesn't just sit around and stink. It doesn't have to be fancy or clean as nobody will touch it but it should be amusing to ensure that drunk people will actually want to use it (I'm thinking a big graffiti arrow that says "pee here" or something).

You'll never get rid of the urinaters entirely, so you may as well encourage them to do it in a way that has minimal impact.
N / September 15, 2009 at 01:28 pm
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So whats the difference between dogs peeing everywhere and people? I saw a horse pee yesterday on the street(the cop riding it looked embarrassed!)

Just ask them to carry around plastic bags to clean up their mess! lol
John Doe / September 15, 2009 at 01:32 pm
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at least they re not deucing in the alley, cause then you got problems.
Mr. Hate replying to a comment from Johnny Cash 2.0 / September 15, 2009 at 01:34 pm
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"Fung Lee moved into her storefront home on Dundas West near Brock Avenue with her husband five years ago."

That's all we know about her, but somehow you know she's a "yuppie dink"?

There's one thing I know: you're a dumbass.
.
Duhh / September 15, 2009 at 01:40 pm
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Once I tried to take a piss in a doorway in downtown Montreal, and as I stepped in and unzipped my pants, I must have tripped a sensor sprinkler, and got soaked head to toe.

Perhaps this is a solution if you have money?
karma / September 15, 2009 at 01:42 pm
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Public pissers get bladder cancer.
J replying to a comment from Johnny Cash 2.0 / September 15, 2009 at 03:45 pm
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Exactly. I've peed in many an alley in Toronto due to the lack of public bathrooms in Toronto. Whatever, you gotta go you gotta go. Now number 2 thats a no no.
marts / September 15, 2009 at 04:12 pm
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Debbie, I think you did a disservice to Fung, who has a legitimate issue, by lumping her in with the bakery owner who complained about sardines. Two totally different people and viewpoints, unless you think peeing in the alley is a treasured part of Portuguese culture too.
J-rock replying to a comment from J-Dawg / September 15, 2009 at 04:56 pm
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I'm guessing it's that intangible quality that Yuppies who move to (formerly) dodgy neighbourhoods are actively seeking out. They want to feel edgy and cool, so they go live somewhere "raw" or "gritty", which is fine provided that it doesn't get too "real". I would think that the stench of urine qualifies as being pretty "raw". Careful what you wish for. Before too long, the neighbourhood is re-branded as "up-and-coming", then after it's profiled in Toronto Life, it graduates to "hip" and inevitably, "unaffordable".
Debbie replying to a comment from marts / September 15, 2009 at 06:44 pm
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i agree they are not the same beefs and that wasn't my intention to lump them. i actually don't feel the post conflates them at all. before introducing the bakery owner's view, i say peeing in public is a legit complaint (ie. Fung and Sam) and that it is a shame some (ie. bakery owner i subsequently introduce right after) use this to complain about less legit things like the smell of sardines.
Mesnada replying to a comment from LovesToRainYellow / September 15, 2009 at 08:27 pm
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You are an ass.
Josh Moraes / September 15, 2009 at 11:45 pm
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I'm not a fan of public urination, but I'm far more disgusted at some of the ignorant comments regarding this piece.

DO NOT move in to a neighbourhood, take advantage of low rents and the rustic/raw authenticity and tell the people that have lived there for generations how they should live.

Don't like the smell of Sardines? Move to Rosedale. You'll fit in well there.





Eww Portuguese Sports Bars / September 16, 2009 at 11:05 am
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I've lived in that area for a while, and to be honest, its grossness has kept my rent down. So I thank all the gross old men and art show hipsters for peeing everywhere.

Every landlord wants Queen West rent, while it's really Dundas West rent.
PunkA$$Kid / September 16, 2009 at 11:05 am
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If you cant take the piss...get out of the toilet.
Marts replying to a comment from Debbie / September 16, 2009 at 11:10 am
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Well Debbie, judging by the comments, people have lumped the two viewpoints together as those of yuppie trash. "But I also fear the way some frame the conversation, mixing their own "isms" and stereotypes with legitimate complaints about patrons coming from predominantly Portuguese male sports bars who pee in public." Isn't this exactly what you're doing in the article?
Jennai / September 16, 2009 at 01:23 pm
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Why not just get some public, outdoor urinals like in London? They are in the Bar and Club districts... My brother used them while he was there and thought they were great! It would be cheaper than some stainless-steel, self cleaning toilet (which I also came across in the UK and it was like an upright metal coffin that soaked itself with sanitizer after you left... and I opted to wait until I got home to pee once I saw it...)
Andrew / September 18, 2009 at 09:40 am
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install a pee trough, put up a sign, or suck it up

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/88152-my-first-chicago-white-sox-game-the-pee-trough-at-old-comiskey-park
thatguy / September 18, 2009 at 10:41 am
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Pay to pee bathrooms are the best. They have them in europe. They are every where and they are cleaner than most restaurant bathrooms. The people working there usually own them and it's in their interest to keep them clean, the attendant is always there with a mop.

There is not enough bathrooms, can't walk into most restaurants to pee, and you shouldn't be able to. If i have to go, I'll go. I try not to put myself in that position.

Also don't blame the sports bars, they have bathrooms.

cash / August 18, 2010 at 09:38 am
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i live in the building next to the alley in the photos. we love the neighbourhood, our neighbours, landlord, etc..."urine alley" is a problem though.

more than once we've witnessed grown men urinating in the alley at 3pm. it's insane.

i have fantasies of turning a hose on them, throwing a bucket of water on them, etc...but the problem is they know where i live, and i don't want to risk retaliation.

it's worse for the people who live in the homes behind us - they have to use the alley to get in. i can just enjoy the smell and the view from my kitchen window.

oh, and no yuppies here.


Man in Chinatown / September 11, 2011 at 03:52 pm
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Oh gimme a break about the Chinatown comment. The place is a open market with all sorts of seafood, spices, poultry and vegetables., You should expect it to smell. Does Lawrence Market not smell? If you don't like it, I suggest you stay far away from Chinatown and get accustomed to always eating burgers at McDonald's.
Pizza Mon / September 11, 2011 at 04:55 pm
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Peeing doesn't cause any health issue to people in the area so who cares? They are not pooing, just peepee. It dries up and good to go.
Chris / September 11, 2011 at 06:17 pm
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" The owner of an upscale bakery, a recent addition to the area thanks to cheap rent, thinks the sports bars are a stain on a neighbourhood trying to rebrand itself."

This pisses me off. The sports bars that were already there are a stain? No, you're the stain on this city neighbourhood you gentrifying asshole.
Steve replying to a comment from Chris / September 12, 2011 at 09:17 am
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Amen. I watched the rent in this neighbourhood go up 50% because apparently the sixteen identical cafes that opened up add value somehow, while the sixteen identical sports bars do not. One of these things is bad, because it's unfamiliar, the other is oh-so-cute.

I never get tired of hearing stories about entitled Torontonians.
haha / September 12, 2011 at 09:46 am
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What did you expect moving downtown? Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
kevin / September 12, 2011 at 10:26 am
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Peeing in public is illegal.

you pay property taxes.

make nice with a cop so they will enforce the law.

no need to make the goalie net wider...just enforce the rulebook as it was written.
Parker / September 12, 2011 at 01:19 pm
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To say "when you've gotta go, you've gotta go" is total B.S. It does NOT excuse public urination.

Guess what -- WOMEN can't pee in an alley so we **remember to go** before we leave the bar. How hard is that, guys? And if you don't remember, then HOLD IT IN! That's what we tell kids, so I guess we'll have to treat the urinators like a bunch of little children who can't remember to pee before they leave the house.
Buds Bunny / October 13, 2011 at 06:24 pm
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I deal with a similar issue in the lane behind my condo. It is possible to go out the back gate and find someone urinating right beside the gate. On a busy night the combined streams of urine gather in a pool at the entrance to the lane., pretty gross. I have found no easy way to deal with this other than getting out the hose and rinsing it away. I once had the opportunity to give one guy a shot with the hose to move him on. The city does nothing about it, very frustrating. I have been able to find a toilet to use when necessary and not resort to public urination. Anyone pissing in public has no self respect and still lives somewhere on the lower rungs of human evolution.

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