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Morning Brew: Commuter Rage, Plastic Baggery, and Paving Fees

Posted by Jerrold Litwinenko / June 2, 2009

plane and skyscrapersPhoto: "This Flight Tonight..." by Froz'n Motion / Cameron MacMaster, member of the blogTO Flickr pool.

What's happening in the GTA (and sometimes beyond):

City Hall says merchants can keep the 5-cents they collect for plastic bags customers take away from their stores. Is this no-strings-attached policy appropriate? Are consumers and the environment basically taking a hit, or should merchants be forced to dole out a portion of the money collected for green initiatives?

The fate of the elevated Gardiner Expressway between Jarvis and the DVP is also in question at city hall today. Leave it as is, repair it, replace it, or tear it down?

Imagine making your way to work on the GO train, and arriving with 2nd degree burns after a co-commuter tosses a piping hot coffee in your face? Commuter rage reared its head at Union Station, and the judges reaction in court says it all. Is the raging coffee tosser insane or evil?

Balsillie has officially submitted his application to the NHL - to move the Phoenix Coyotes to Hamilton. Is he wasting his time? I mean, it seems that Gary Bettman has already made up his mind, and since Gary Bettman has already demonstrated that he's able to make up the rules as he goes, this application may just be a put directly into the waste bin beside his desk.

Should Torontonians have to pay the City a $127 permit fee to re-pave their driveways? Some people may be inclined to think that the City should fine people who DON'T re-pave their driveways.

Discussion

41 Comments

Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 08:46 am
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Merchants deserve the 5 cents to put up with the bitching and whining they're going to be subjected to as a result of this new legislation.

Also, the HTML this morning is a little fudged.
Jerrold / June 2, 2009 at 09:01 am
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Yeah, and then merchants can use their extra profits to buy new gas guzzlers and exotic imported fruits in August. It'll be awesome! ;)
Sean Galbraith / June 2, 2009 at 09:04 am
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Biodegradable single use dog poop bags: 10 cents each from a pet store
Non biodegradable multiple use grocery bags: 5 cents each

Non-biodegradable for the win. :-)
davedavedave / June 2, 2009 at 09:05 am
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Now it is easy for merchants to avoid the bag charge: Instant 5 cent rebates after you buy the bag. If the City isn't going to enforce what happens to the money, there is nothing they are going to be able to do about it.
Ryan L. replying to a comment from Jerrold / June 2, 2009 at 09:14 am
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Speaking of which, a coworker had stopped by the 'Big Apple' on the way back from a trip down the 401. For those who don't know, the Big Apple is a kitschy tourist spot off the 401 near Colborne that features a 35 foot tall apple. They always boast about their world famous apple pies (they're not all that good honestly) which were presumably made from the vast number of apple orchards in the region.

Much to my surprise, my coworker brought back with them a 'Fresh' apple pie from the place just this weekend. I thought they were only open during the summer and fall when apples were ripe, but apparently someone thought, "hey, why not get all our apples from California and we can stay open all year?" Disgraceful.
Jerrold replying to a comment from davedavedave / June 2, 2009 at 09:15 am
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Why would merchants charge and give a rebate? That makes no sense. They'll gladly take the 5cents, and there's nothing YOU can do about it.
Jonathan / June 2, 2009 at 09:16 am
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The "commuter" connection top this incident is typical transparent sensational media farce. There was no rage. The woman who did it is just a jackass. I'm glad to see, per the story, that the judge agrees.
Bradley Wentworth / June 2, 2009 at 09:16 am
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Where the plastic bag 5 cents goes is not so important; it must be well under 1% of the purchase in most cases. The impact is meant to be psychological: get people to reuse plastic bags, and other items, as a general habit. That should be the main goal of the policy.
Ryan L. replying to a comment from Sean Galbraith / June 2, 2009 at 09:19 am
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Some retailers use biodigradable plastic bags. There should be an exemption for them to encourage other retailers to switch. There also needs to be charges for paper bags as well. They're worse for the environment than plastic bags (this is up for debate, but at the very least they're equally as bad).

There should be a 10 cent charge on them if only to smack that smug look off the faces of all the greenwashing companies out there who use them.
radical / June 2, 2009 at 09:20 am
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re: plastic bags
I'd like to see the bag fee at 10 cents, or even 25 cents -- and remitted entirely to the city. Disposable plastic bags are one of those products that should simply disappear from our lives.

re: Gardiner
Anyone who has ever driven on the Gardiner when there is a hockey game or concert on knows that none of these "options" will help. Rather than focus on redesigning the highway, we need to look at alternative ways to get people in and out of the city. I personally don't have a problem with the overhead highway, but I do have issue with the underlying Lakeshore highway and the access ramps from the downtown core. And I definitely have issue with people driving down the Gardiner to park in the city core. If your destination is in the downtown core (which is the one part of the city well served by transit), then we should not be encouraging you to drive. Let's get serious about changing behaviour to park&ride, etc.. If we maintain capacity on the Gardiner for through traffic, but reduce capacity on getting into the downtown core (by removing the access ramps at Bathurst/Spadina/Yonge/Jarvis) then we'll get people looking seriously at alternatives to driving.
Sean Galbraith / June 2, 2009 at 09:22 am
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I would like to see the fee remitted entirely to me. I need a new Humvee.
Mark Dowling / June 2, 2009 at 09:25 am
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Now instead of properly repaving, people will just lard on sealer instead.

There is an opportunity here for the City though - waive the fee for people who want to replace their parking pad/driveway with permeable materials.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/green-pavement.htm/printable

@Sean Galbraith - I thought the city didn't want biodegradable bags because it would mess up their plastics stream?
Stevie replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 09:26 am
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I was shocked when I was speaking with one of my favourite organic store's owners yesterday. He was telling me that a man threw his lunch onto the floor because he refused to pay 5 cents for a bag. WTF.
Sean Galbraith replying to a comment from Mark Dowling / June 2, 2009 at 09:27 am
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I wouldn't be surprised, though I don't know myself.
Dan replying to a comment from Bradley Wentworth / June 2, 2009 at 09:31 am
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agreed... it's more about the change in behaviour than it is about the money...

re: biodegradable bags... not a good option since they don't biodegrate in a landfill (no oxygen), won't get composted in Toronto's green bin program (will be taken out before it breaks down), and will contaminate the blue bin program (don't want biodegradable bags mixed in with plastic.)
Sean Galbraith / June 2, 2009 at 09:34 am
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Our condo just started food separation recycling, and we're told to use a plastic bag to hold our scraps (in the city provided tub). Can we use biodegradable bags with that program?
Ratpick / June 2, 2009 at 09:38 am
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Re: 5 cents for plastic bags.

Frankly, I don't care. I'll pay the 5 cents -- these are still cheaper than buying garbage bags (which is what I use 'em for).

But I with somebody at the city would talk about another plastic problem that I saw scattered all over Cherry Beach on the weekend: TAMPON APPLICATORS. The place was awash in 'em (and I nearly got poked by a syringe, I hasten to add).


Ratpick / June 2, 2009 at 09:39 am
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In message above, "with" should have been "wish"

Just imagine it spoken with a lisp and it reads OK
Gloria / June 2, 2009 at 09:46 am
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I'm still amazed people are so infuriated over 5 cents. Seattle charges 20. Ireland charges 23. Even Hong Kong's tax works out to 7 Canadian cents.

I'm even more amazed by how people are suddenly so attached to plastic bags. Even though we do find them useful for a few things like garbage disposal, my parents could NEVER use them up fast enough, and built up a huge stockpile that always seemed to grow and never shrink. My boyfriend still bitches about the collection I have.
Jonathan replying to a comment from radical / June 2, 2009 at 09:47 am
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"If we maintain capacity on the Gardiner for through traffic, but reduce capacity on getting into the downtown core (by removing the access ramps at Bathurst/Spadina/Yonge/Jarvis) then we'll get people looking seriously at alternatives to driving."

The current "alternatives" cannot accomodate the volume of people arriving via the Gardienr each day. Despite Metrolinx's best work with crayons on maps, their plans include no acutal discussion or plans for funding to construct suitable alternatives. Even if they had, construction would be so far off in the future, The Gardiner will have collapsed by the time they are built. We're stuck with requiring a very high capacity route (Gardiner or redesigned Lakeshore) into downtown for the next 20 years.
Colin replying to a comment from Stevie / June 2, 2009 at 09:51 am
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It's a clear indication that people who shop at organic grocery stores are douchebags!
Ryan L. replying to a comment from Dan / June 2, 2009 at 09:52 am
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"re: biodegradable bags... not a good option since they don't biodegrate in a landfill (no oxygen),"

True. Also very true of paper bags as well. Reusable are definitely the way to go (as long as they're treated as such and not tossed as the reusable bags become cheaper in price and made of cheaper materials)

Best way to save the environment? Take advantage of the leftover corrugated brown boxes that some stores leave out for people. They already exist as they were used to ship the product to the store. As opposed to buying new reusable bags or bins which have to be produced, shipped, stored, shipped again, etc.
sniderscion / June 2, 2009 at 10:20 am
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Re: 5 Cents-I work for a national retail chain and we have suggested to our franchisees that they donate the money they collect to local charities of their choosing.
badbhoy replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 10:22 am
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I just got the water bottle memo recently but am I also supposed to feel guilty about the fact I like mangoes now?
Sean / June 2, 2009 at 10:51 am
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Tell the store owners you're not paying them 5¢ for bags. I'm prepared to charge them 10¢ for each bag I fill of their products to cover my time and expense while giving them business.

Already got a stern look from a Loblaws manager when I was using Sobeys bags for my purchases. ha ha

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Pet owners - use the bags from the produce section of your grocery store to pick up your dog poop.

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GARDINER. A stupid idea if Miller thinks of cutting off the Gardiner at Jarvis. The idiot just took away a lane for cars. Think of the congestion!
I say leave the Gardiner and Lakeshore as it is but consider a tunnel from Leslie to Jameson for trucks. It would be a great alternative when the Gardiner closes for repairs and for Tamil protests.

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Never have I seen such greed from a mayor of Toronto. It's time for a city of Toronto financial audit from the top down. Taxpayers are getting pissed off. Don't be sheeple, tell them off!

Born&RaisedInTO / June 2, 2009 at 10:52 am
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Nothing is stopping patrons to City retail stores of inquiring what the company is spending their nickel/bag on. Consumers need to be vocal about where they'd like to see the $$$ go (i.e. 'greening' the environment; helping the local food bank or community charity; etc.). I'm also pretty sure some of the $.05 recouped by a stores goes back into purchasing plastic bags for patrons who don't mind paying.
BTW - the City doesn't recycle biodegradable bags because its plastic has already been recycled, therefore, leaving it an inferior substance to create new plastic products.
Dan replying to a comment from Sean Galbraith / June 2, 2009 at 10:54 am
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The green bin waste goes through a process that shreds the bags to extract the food inside... any plastic (biodegradable or synthetic) will get scooped out and sent to landfill... Once it's in a landfill, the biodegradable bag will not have a chance to break down... It's really a waste of money... But that's only Toronto... Peel region has a different system whereby everything (bag included) gets sent to composting. Biodegradable bags are a better option in this case.
Andrea / June 2, 2009 at 11:09 am
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Why do people get worked up over 5 cents? As Bradley Wentworth said, the effect is meant to be psychological.

@Sean Galbraith: My apartment too, and it's stupid that biodegradable bags are sold and yet they're separated with the plastic bags from the trash.

I agree that there should be an exemption for store owners who use biodegradable bags. It seems that there's nowhere for biodegradable bags to decompose and so their existence is pointless. I find that sad.

As for Jarrold's questions:
"Is this no-strings-attached policy appropriate? Are consumers and the environment basically taking a hit, or should merchants be forced to dole out a portion of the money collected for green initiatives?"

Consumers aren't taking a hit, they just like to whine. The environment is taking a bit of a hit. Merchants shouldn't be forced (no one wants to be forced) but instead encouraged. You catch more flies with honey. And speaking of no-strings attached, that's another type of bag that they don't know what to do with: Paper bags with strings.

Andrea / June 2, 2009 at 11:10 am
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Why do people get worked up over 5 cents? As Bradley Wentworth said, the effect is meant to be psychological.

@Sean Galbraith: My apartment too, and it's stupid that biodegradable bags are sold and yet they're separated with the plastic bags from the trash.

I agree that there should be an exemption for store owners who use biodegradable bags. It seems that there's nowhere for biodegradable bags to decompose and so their existence is pointless. I find that sad.

As for Jarrold's questions:
"Is this no-strings-attached policy appropriate? Are consumers and the environment basically taking a hit, or should merchants be forced to dole out a portion of the money collected for green initiatives?"

Consumers aren't taking a hit, they just like to whine. The environment is taking a bit of a hit. Merchants shouldn't be forced (no one wants to be forced) but instead encouraged. You catch more flies with honey. And speaking of no-strings attached, that's another type of bag that they don't know what to do with: Paper bags with strings.

tom replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 11:10 am
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I highly doubt the Big Apple on the 401 imports apples out of season from California (unless they mentioned it?). Because it's surprisingly easy to store apples over the winter in a cellar without them going bad. They keep even longer if individually wrapped in something like newsprint to prevent one rotten apple from spoiling the rest.

I'm eating a Macintosh right now that was picked last fall in Prince Edward county... still good.
ridonculous / June 2, 2009 at 11:37 am
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Send that coffee throwing cow to jail for a couple of weeks to think about the horrible assault she committed. And fork over 10 grand to the victim for fucking his life up.

Ryan L. replying to a comment from tom / June 2, 2009 at 11:50 am
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I'd agree, but they were marketing them as 'fresh'. So either their marketing was deceptive or they were getting their apples from afar.
Kevin replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 12:12 pm
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5c is really nothing to complain about. If they have time to complain about the small fee, then they have time to bring a bag from home.
onegirl replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 12:53 pm
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The Big Apple issue...

I think "fresh" means not frozen. The apples may not be fresh, as in "just picked", but the pie is made fresh... from the stored apples. Unless they said they were coming from elsewhere, I don't think they've advertised incorrectly.
Chester Pape replying to a comment from Ryan L. / June 2, 2009 at 01:09 pm
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Fresh = not frozen. Fresh Pie = recently coverted from apples to pie. If the apple went from tree to storage to pie without being frozen or otherwise processed that meets my definition of a fresh pie.
ddt / June 2, 2009 at 02:24 pm
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...i think accepting 5 cents for palstic bags will disturb the island residents..
jack / June 2, 2009 at 04:17 pm
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if we cared so much about the environment, maybe we should ban smoking(esp outside Atrium on Bay)and TTC buses first
Richard S replying to a comment from jack / June 3, 2009 at 12:09 am
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nah that makes too much sense and it isn't a tax, so the assholes in charge of the city will never do it.

going on a tangent, i find it amazing how so many people claim to like the NDP, despite the fact that we've had a NDP mayor for years....
Grahame replying to a comment from jack / June 3, 2009 at 12:12 am
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Because banning TTC buses and replacing them with cars would really help out the environment...
Alogon replying to a comment from Jonathan / June 3, 2009 at 02:32 pm
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As am I Jonathan, unfortunately our justice system still is too lenient on these kinds of people. A suspended sentence for burning a guy's face is ridiculous. While I am loathe to pay any money housing "guests of the Province" something more needs to be done. I was run down by a car while walking on the sidewalk and required surgery. The guy got a suspended fine while I am still, 4.5 years later, suffering pain. Sure, he may not have intended it, just as this "woman" might not have committed an "impulsive act", but it is unfair they can skate away while the victim endures the pain and scars.
Maybe, in cases like this commuter rage one, an eye for an eye isn't such a bad compromise.
Alogon replying to a comment from Richard S / June 3, 2009 at 02:37 pm
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HAD an NDP affliated mayor. He left in 2007 - "Miller told the Star yesterday he has let his party membership lapse because he has important dealings with both the federal and provincial governments this year. He said his understanding of party membership is that it ends at the end of each calendar year and that he simply didn't renew his membership for 2007."

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/204293

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