City
Morning Brew: October 9th, 2008
Photo: "Time to haul ass." by cl-s, member of the blogTO Flickr pool. ~ See it bigger ~.
What's happening in the GTA:
Say goodbye to fresh, local peaches and cream cobs, and say hello to frozen nibblets shipped in from Timbuktu. Urban sprawl is quickly depleting arable farm lands surrounding Canada's largest city, at a time when people are aiming to eat more local. You know what they say about hindsight...
A report by a think tank (that largely opposes our involvement in Afghanistan) claims that the Canadian military mission in Afghanistan will cost the federal government $28billion by 2011 - a heck of a lot more that what Harper's Conservatives have estimated. Another report comes in at $22billion. Will this be money well spent during a looming global recession?
Listeria is proving to be one resilient microorganism at Maple Leaf's Toronto plant. Ongoing screening has found that 4 of 5000 products tested positive for Listeria. None of the affected product was shipped. The news comes shortly after we learned that the CFIA sat on their hands with lips sealed for several days before going public on the first major outbreak.
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Toronto Police has laid the first ever "drugged driving" charges under news laws that came into effect in July. And there's already some good discussion about the implications.
The TTC employees have ratified a slighter sweeter deal than what was rejected back in April. They got their (in my opinion, totally ridiculous) clause that ensures that they get higher pay than their counterparts in any of the suburbs, and skilled workers got a 35cent/hour premium wage increase.
I've always wondered why there were often cars parked in areas off-limits to the public (for example, behind security fences and near the subway tracks at Kipling station). It turns out that TTC employees are allowed to improvise and park their cars where we aren't - even where no parking signs are posted. Makes sense, I guess.
And there's trouble brewing at the Toronto Zoo. Board members are dropping like flies in the lizard exhibit.
Discussion
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Let's just wait until they make the same clause in the YRT negotiations.
"While people in the city take on substantial debt taking post secondary education.....GAH"
It's not the TTC's fault that so many people are duped into thinking University will give them a better chance at getting a job.
I'm curious, what do people think a TTC driver should get paid? Be interesting to see what folks think their TTC drivers are worth.
Is it just me or does it seem like gegtik is lecturing Dave with his Davedavedave?
Huge houses with the smallest tract of personal land that could be allowed.
Why don't these developers just build condominiums developments or apartments and allow the land to still be there.
I'm always so sad to go up there now to visit the family, seeing what used to be beautiful farmland now bulldozed away. Even my aunt and uncle have come to the same conclusion; that Markham is a blight, and are now are moving out of Markham and as far away east on the 401 as possible.
Anyhow, notwithstanding the various comments here and elsewhere about the pay and ability of our drivers, I encourage anyone who is looking for a job, or a change in careers, to go here: http://www3.ttc.ca/Jobs/jobopps_operators1.jsp
Brad Ross
Director - Corporate Communications
Toronto Transit Commission
And Davedavedave, a lot of hardworking, university-educated people in Toronto don't make $55,000 a year. And most of us can't claim for overtime pay like they can. I hardly think it's unreasonable of me to be slightly bitter that Joe Blow with a GED and a TTC jacket is making 25% more than I am.
Unfortunately, particularly with unions and the government, it's argued that there is some sort of obligation to make sure employees live comfortably regardless of their education or skillset. That's unbearable to those who work in the private sector, skilled or not and it doesn't fit in the paradigm of a market economy.
Worse, it's a public service, so those artificially high wages increase fares and inhibit the quality of the service. The fact that they've now introduced that idiotic clause is proof positive that labour issues are an anchor on the quality and value of the TTC. Considering we need an expanded and efficient transit system now more than ever, this will have to be addressed by someone willing to take on the TTC union. They've overplayed their hand and it's only going to get worse.
@unions are cool, but not this one: Ok, so the TTC union is evil. But you didn't answer the question - if $55K is too much, (or artificially high if you prefer) what would you pay them? $5k less? $10K? Should drivers get paid $30K a year? Would you be able to get anyone to be a driver for that amount? Please, someone, anyone - if you think $55k is an outrageous amount, what is the right one?
And I'm not, as Unions points out, because I work in the private sector, where competition and supply and demand dictate salaries. In the public sector, those checks and balances don't exist. The TTC doesn't pay its workers aren't paid what they are because a competing organization might snap them up with a better offer. They're paid what they are because 1) the TTC has an inflated budget with which to operate, and 2) the TTC union knows this and is going to milk as much out of the organization as they can, simply because they can.
And I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone to say with authority, "they're not worth 55k, but they are worth 30k" (though I'd certainly peg it closer to the latter than the former). What we are saying is that they're paid far more than their worth to society would dictate. Look at what the average teacher is paid, then look again at what a TTC driver makes, and ask yourself who is worth more to society?
No we can't. I don't agree. I think that people obsess over TTC wages because they want better service, and somehow think that higher wages = worse service. Do you honestly think that if TTC employees were being paid the same as VIVA drivers that service would be better and more extensive? And you still haven't answered my simple question - if $55k is too much, what should a driver get paid?
As for the assumption that higher wages = worse service, it stands to reason. If more money is spent on wages, there will be less money for other outlays. Before we even reach that point, however, we face steadily increasing fares that threaten to become unaffordable for most people.
And again, all of this is coming at a time when our city (and most in the western world) are attempting to limit car culture and promote public transit in order to reduce congestion and improve the environment.
Forget 'living wages', the TTC union is a <i>severe</i> limitation on Toronto's ability to progress as a livable city.
As hard as you worked for your degree, and as intelligent and skilled as you are, if there are too many people with your qualifications, your pay will go down.
How many people have tried to train for a TTC job? What's the wash-out rate? How many burn out? Why is the TTC still hiring if the jobs are so good?
I think many teachers are vastly under-appreciated, but have we already forgotten how angry we get when teachers strike and we accuse them of being greedy and gambling with our children's futures, and resent them for their "cushy" benefits and vacations?
I do think the labour troubles at the TTC are unnecessary and ridiculously irresponsible to the city, but some of the rhetoric against the workers rubs me the wrong way.
So, lets look at the numbers. You suggest that TTC drivers should get paid closer to $35K a year or $17 an hour. I work in private industry - we have to pay our office temps $14 an hour to get anyone who has a brain in their head, and we aren't asking them to drive a 40ft bus in rush hour traffic full of semi-abusive passengers. I think that if drivers were paid $17 an hour, the TTC would have a very hard time keeping employees. Would anyone here drive a TTC bus at 12:30 at night in a bad neighbourhood for $17 an hour? Would you even do it for $24 an hour?
You also seem to assume that driving a bus is 'unintelligent' work. It may not be intellectually interesting, but it does require good decision making skills, and the ability to handle stressful situations on a daily basis. Those attributes should be worth some premium shouldn't they?
Also, I hardly think any reasonable person who knows a few teachers could argue that they have "cushy benefits." People get angry at striking teachers because their actions are screwing over our children, who are the reason they have a job in the first place. Same with the TTC; I wasn't as upset that the striking workers were asking for absurd wage hikes as I was that they were incoveniencing me, their customer.
@Davedavedave: I never assumed that driving a bus in 'unintelligent' work. But there are hundreds of thousands of people in this city who know how to drive - a percentage of those would either have the natural aptitude, or could be sufficiently trained, to drive a bus or a streetcar.
As for the wage thing, I personally wouldn't drive a bus in this city for $75 an hour. But as with Gloria's stats, I haven't heard a thing from the TTC about how many applications they get a year, how many people pass the driving test vs. how many fail, and how many of those who've passed get hired. Until they make with those figures, suggesting that at $17/hr, "the TTC would have a very hard time keeping employees," is essentially moot.
Bad and aggressive drivers, rude drivers, inconsiderate drivers, lazy collectors, etc, etc. The TTC is filled with them. Does someone who refuses to do their job properly still deserve the $55k?
I've had good drivers and I've had bad. The problem is the TTCs failure to differentiate the two. Hire 'secret shoppers' to make sure drivers do their job and give pay raises based on performance.
To answer your question: "how much do they deserve to be paid?"
The driver that talks on his cellphone, slams on the brakes, misses stops and is rude to riders? $55k? Hell no. $35k? No. $0K? That sounds about right. People who refuse to do their job shouldn't have it. Simple as that.
The driver that is courteous and helpful? I'd say $30-35k is a decent starting wage (unless they have prior bus driving experience) and annual raises as long as they continue to do a good job.