Morning Brew: October 9th, 2008

I'd love to be in a PR position for the TTC. It wouldn't matter what I got paid, since clearly you don't have to be good at your job or even do any work.

Just what TTC workers need, more money, you know I'm really tired of the (in my option) TTC employees getting paid for what is pretty much just a labor job (little education, doing a repetitive task). Why should everyone suffer in the city having to pay higher and higher TTC fares, because Joe Smith only completed high school, and was able to score himself/herself a job working for the TTC. While people in the city take on substantial debt taking post secondary education.....GAH

"They got their (in my opinion, totally ridiculous) clause that ensures that they get higher pay than their counterparts in any of the suburbs, and skilled workers got a 35cent/hour premium wage increase."

Let's just wait until they make the same clause in the YRT negotiations.

"While people in the city take on substantial debt taking post secondary education.....GAH"

It's not the TTC's fault that so many people are duped into thinking University will give them a better chance at getting a job.

Yeah! Damn those uneducated bastards expecting a living wage! I mean, they make almost $55k a year! Who do they think they are? Bank executives?

I'm curious, what do people think a TTC driver should get paid? Be interesting to see what folks think their TTC drivers are worth.

Davedavedave I'd rather be a TTC driver than a taxi driver any day of the week and I bet the salaries don't compare. I don't know how many other apples to apples I can think of here.

@gegtik I agree with you. But others make a different choice - they are always hiring new drivers, but people still choose to drive cabs instead. I wonder why?

"Davedavedave I'd rather be a TTC driver than a taxi driver any day of the week and I bet the salaries don't compare. I don't know how many other apples to apples I can think of here."

Is it just me or does it seem like gegtik is lecturing Dave with his Davedavedave?

I can't say exactly how much a driver should be "worth" but I think driving a massively oversized vehicle like a bus or streetcar or a subway car is somewhat more difficult than driving a cab. A TTC operator definitely has nicer working conditions in many ways, but also considerably more responsibility.

Nothing has pissed me off more over the years than watching places like Markham continue to expand outwards at what seems to be a hideous exponential rate. And what's going up on the land that these new developments are building are just laughable.
Huge houses with the smallest tract of personal land that could be allowed.
Why don't these developers just build condominiums developments or apartments and allow the land to still be there.
I'm always so sad to go up there now to visit the family, seeing what used to be beautiful farmland now bulldozed away. Even my aunt and uncle have come to the same conclusion; that Markham is a blight, and are now are moving out of Markham and as far away east on the 401 as possible.

@Gloria That is kinda my point. On forums like this, people like to say that TTC drivers are a)overpaid and b)unskilled. But no one is able to state what they think a TTC driver is worth, and no one is able to explain why more people don't take the jobs if they are so easy. Why would one choose to drive a cab instead of working for the TTC? If $55K is 'too much' to pay a driver, what is the right amount?

The TTC is, indeed, hiring. (BTW, I'm not sure which "PR postion" serotonin is referring to, but *not* doing any work isn't something I've encountered in my 6 months at the TTC.)

Anyhow, notwithstanding the various comments here and elsewhere about the pay and ability of our drivers, I encourage anyone who is looking for a job, or a change in careers, to go here: http://www3.ttc.ca/Jobs/jobopps_operators1.jsp

Brad Ross
Director - Corporate Communications
Toronto Transit Commission

Not to sound cynical, but what's a "skilled" worker at the TTC?

And Davedavedave, a lot of hardworking, university-educated people in Toronto don't make $55,000 a year. And most of us can't claim for overtime pay like they can. I hardly think it's unreasonable of me to be slightly bitter that Joe Blow with a GED and a TTC jacket is making 25% more than I am.

Skilled workers include mechanics, electricians, millwrights, etc.

The concept of a 'living wage' exists outside of our economic reality. Whether or not people are 'entitled' to a living wage is immaterial because we live in a market economy.

Unfortunately, particularly with unions and the government, it's argued that there is some sort of obligation to make sure employees live comfortably regardless of their education or skillset. That's unbearable to those who work in the private sector, skilled or not and it doesn't fit in the paradigm of a market economy.

Worse, it's a public service, so those artificially high wages increase fares and inhibit the quality of the service. The fact that they've now introduced that idiotic clause is proof positive that labour issues are an anchor on the quality and value of the TTC. Considering we need an expanded and efficient transit system now more than ever, this will have to be addressed by someone willing to take on the TTC union. They've overplayed their hand and it's only going to get worse.

@ Neil F: I'm sorry that you didn't get a degree that makes you more money. Perhaps you should apply to be a driver? Then you could make better money AND feel superior to you co-workers because you are better educated.

@unions are cool, but not this one: Ok, so the TTC union is evil. But you didn't answer the question - if $55K is too much, (or artificially high if you prefer) what would you pay them? $5k less? $10K? Should drivers get paid $30K a year? Would you be able to get anyone to be a driver for that amount? Please, someone, anyone - if you think $55k is an outrageous amount, what is the right one?

Wages and salaries aren't set in a vaccum, they're related to legal requirements, industry standards and the fiscal situation of the employer. We can all agree that the TTC unions belligerence has artificially inflated the salary of all ttc employees (not just drivers) and this is a significant hindrance on the ability of the public transit systems ability to serve the populace.

@Davedavedave, I do have a degree, in the field I wanted to work in, which I worked extremely hard to obtain. Do I feel I am a superior human being vs. a TTC driver? No, of course not. But I do feel confident that I am more intelligent with a more varied skillset than many drivers likely have. Ergo, it only logically follows that I should be paid more than they are. I'm not.

And I'm not, as Unions points out, because I work in the private sector, where competition and supply and demand dictate salaries. In the public sector, those checks and balances don't exist. The TTC doesn't pay its workers aren't paid what they are because a competing organization might snap them up with a better offer. They're paid what they are because 1) the TTC has an inflated budget with which to operate, and 2) the TTC union knows this and is going to milk as much out of the organization as they can, simply because they can.

And I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone to say with authority, "they're not worth 55k, but they are worth 30k" (though I'd certainly peg it closer to the latter than the former). What we are saying is that they're paid far more than their worth to society would dictate. Look at what the average teacher is paid, then look again at what a TTC driver makes, and ask yourself who is worth more to society?

@unions are cool, but not this one: "We can all agree that the TTC unions belligerence has artificially inflated the salary of all ttc employees (not just drivers)"

No we can't. I don't agree. I think that people obsess over TTC wages because they want better service, and somehow think that higher wages = worse service. Do you honestly think that if TTC employees were being paid the same as VIVA drivers that service would be better and more extensive? And you still haven't answered my simple question - if $55k is too much, what should a driver get paid?

Dave, for the reasons I (and Neil) have gone through, that's not possible.

As for the assumption that higher wages = worse service, it stands to reason. If more money is spent on wages, there will be less money for other outlays. Before we even reach that point, however, we face steadily increasing fares that threaten to become unaffordable for most people.

And again, all of this is coming at a time when our city (and most in the western world) are attempting to limit car culture and promote public transit in order to reduce congestion and improve the environment.

Forget 'living wages', the TTC union is a severe limitation on Toronto's ability to progress as a livable city.

Neil F.: What about labour market forces? How many drivers are needed? How many wash out? Salaries are not only determined by intelligence, education, or sometimes even skill set, but the willingness and steadfastness to do a job. A shortage of workers means higher pay.

As hard as you worked for your degree, and as intelligent and skilled as you are, if there are too many people with your qualifications, your pay will go down.

How many people have tried to train for a TTC job? What's the wash-out rate? How many burn out? Why is the TTC still hiring if the jobs are so good?

I think many teachers are vastly under-appreciated, but have we already forgotten how angry we get when teachers strike and we accuse them of being greedy and gambling with our children's futures, and resent them for their "cushy" benefits and vacations?

I do think the labour troubles at the TTC are unnecessary and ridiculously irresponsible to the city, but some of the rhetoric against the workers rubs me the wrong way.

@Neil F: Not too much point in getting into a wages vs. 'value to society' argument - there are many many people who have jobs that are less 'valuable to society' than doctors, nurses and teachers who are paid far more - professional hockey players for example.

So, lets look at the numbers. You suggest that TTC drivers should get paid closer to $35K a year or $17 an hour. I work in private industry - we have to pay our office temps $14 an hour to get anyone who has a brain in their head, and we aren't asking them to drive a 40ft bus in rush hour traffic full of semi-abusive passengers. I think that if drivers were paid $17 an hour, the TTC would have a very hard time keeping employees. Would anyone here drive a TTC bus at 12:30 at night in a bad neighbourhood for $17 an hour? Would you even do it for $24 an hour?

You also seem to assume that driving a bus is 'unintelligent' work. It may not be intellectually interesting, but it does require good decision making skills, and the ability to handle stressful situations on a daily basis. Those attributes should be worth some premium shouldn't they?

@Gloria: I'm in agreement with everything you wrote. And frankly, if the TTC could come forward with the statistics you outlined and show that those stats justify their pay scale, I think most of us would shut up about the issue. But to date, they haven't. And that - to go back to an earlier point in this thread - is where their PR people are doing a piss-poor job.

Also, I hardly think any reasonable person who knows a few teachers could argue that they have "cushy benefits." People get angry at striking teachers because their actions are screwing over our children, who are the reason they have a job in the first place. Same with the TTC; I wasn't as upset that the striking workers were asking for absurd wage hikes as I was that they were incoveniencing me, their customer.

@Davedavedave: I never assumed that driving a bus in 'unintelligent' work. But there are hundreds of thousands of people in this city who know how to drive - a percentage of those would either have the natural aptitude, or could be sufficiently trained, to drive a bus or a streetcar.

As for the wage thing, I personally wouldn't drive a bus in this city for $75 an hour. But as with Gloria's stats, I haven't heard a thing from the TTC about how many applications they get a year, how many people pass the driving test vs. how many fail, and how many of those who've passed get hired. Until they make with those figures, suggesting that at $17/hr, "the TTC would have a very hard time keeping employees," is essentially moot.

I think the issue isn't that TTC workers get paid too much based on the job they are required to do, it's that TTC workers get paid too much based on their performance.

Bad and aggressive drivers, rude drivers, inconsiderate drivers, lazy collectors, etc, etc. The TTC is filled with them. Does someone who refuses to do their job properly still deserve the $55k?

I've had good drivers and I've had bad. The problem is the TTCs failure to differentiate the two. Hire 'secret shoppers' to make sure drivers do their job and give pay raises based on performance.

To answer your question: "how much do they deserve to be paid?"

The driver that talks on his cellphone, slams on the brakes, misses stops and is rude to riders? $55k? Hell no. $35k? No. $0K? That sounds about right. People who refuse to do their job shouldn't have it. Simple as that.

The driver that is courteous and helpful? I'd say $30-35k is a decent starting wage (unless they have prior bus driving experience) and annual raises as long as they continue to do a good job.

The TTC is hiring because service is expanding. It's really that simple.

I'm less upset at drivers for getting paid so much as I am with the surly ticket sellers (who could be replaced by machines) earning the same for doing so very little. Drivers have a huge responsibility for the safety of passengers, but the guy slumping behind the counter making change for passes and tokens? What does he do that someone at Burger King doesn't? I can't excuse any of them for being assholes to people when it happens, or are otherwise incompetent, as they are in a public contact position, however.

Okay. TTC drivers should get paid $40K. Tocken collectors should get paid $32K. Happy now?