City
Green Light, Green Light, Red Light! (Camera)

So, here we are, all grown up, gone are the days of playing Red Light/Green Light with friends, and now into the real world of traffic lights that it so effectively prepared us for.
But, as with anything, there are people who don't follow the rules of the game as closely as they should. Enter red-light cameras - now new and improved with higher fines and more locations! Oh. Wait. Is that new and improved?
There has, of course, been controversy about this since the beginning, and now with the fine being raised from $180 to $500, as you can imagine, folks are all a twitter again.
I can see both sides of this. On one hand, if you do something illegal (especially if it's illegal for a darn good reason) then you have to be willing to accept the consequences, and frankly, in this case, you're lucky if your consequence is just a ticket, as opposed to an accident that results in injury or even death. But, herein lies the problem - the person who has to deal with the consequences is not necessarily the person who broke the law.
The ticket is sent to the registered owner of the vehicle, which is the problem with all photo-based traffic tickets. So, for example, I own a car, many of my friends do not (it's Toronto after all...), which means I will often lend my car to friends. I imagine this kind of arrangement is pretty common in a city like Toronto. But, if someone goes through a red light, I am legally responsible. I'm not saying my friends would try to rip me off, I'm just saying that the person who ran the red probably won't know they did it. Unlike speeding where it's hard not to know what you're doing, people don't run red lights on purpose (well, not generally anyway), so they won't know about it. Does this mean that I'm going to have to start keeping a log of who is driving my car when?
The stats seem to say that red light cameras decrease fatalities (possibly while increasing property damage accidents, but really, if we have to choose between dead people or wrecked cars, I'd vote for wrecked cars any day). On March 18, 2008, The Toronto Star reported that "the Toronto [red light camera] experience showed a 26.2 per cent drop in "angle" or T-bone crashes, while rear-enders were up 10.1 per cent." Although there has been an increase in rear-end collisions Glenn De Baeremaeker, the public works committee chairperson, pointed out to the star that "The T-bone accidents have gone down, those are the most dangerous."
Based on that my gut says that probably red-light cameras are a good idea. What I'm not so clear on is how increasing the fine is going to provide any kind of benefit at all. Is the idea that there are people out there who figure they can afford $180 so they're gonna run the red, but once it's $500 then they can't afford it anymore so they'll stop? Seems like a pretty weak argument to me, and makes it pretty easy to see why there are lots of cries of 'cash grab' being heard around the city today. But what about the argument that more vigilance will cost more money?
The city tells us that the extra money is required to implement additional cameras and monitoring. Currently there are 10 cameras being rotated among 38 intersections (listed here). The plan is to increase that to 98 cameras between 169 intersections by the end of 2009, which will, of course, cost money. That said, Gary Welsh, Toronto's General Manager of Transportation Services, said on the last page of a memo to the Public Works and Infrastructure committee that "Over the next five years, the estimated project revenues exceed costs by approximately $4,401,100.00." - so, we're talking a reasonable chunk more than just cost recovery here.
I dunno. What do you think? Are they a good idea? Does raising fees make sense, or is it just a cash grab? Is it maybe okay for it to be a cash grab, since the city's gotta get revenue from somewhere? I'm really curious to know what folks are thinking about this issue.
Photo from the blogTO flickr pool by Xenon


Discussion
36 Comments
Sort By Oldest First / Newest First
Subscribe
What's the big deal?? It's pretty damn hard to run a red if you don't speed through amber. remember your driver's ed classes folks - amber still means proceed with caution. Follow that, and the $320 increase won't affect you.
Jerrold - that's my understanding, but let me dig around and pull up the bit where I read that. It's in legalese though, so I could be interpreting it wrong... I'll find the link and post it.
it does ?
lol.. I always thought in a traffic light it meant prepare to stop.
lol, but hey.. I don't have a license.. I donno.
and I'm a "play it overly safe" kinda guy anyways
when it comes to ton's of metal flying at me :P
it really means that ?
I -really- didn't know..
(I'm not trying to be flip.. for once..)
From my casual observations though, I'd say that it's not the general practice. ;)
Q Who receives a ticket for running a red light detected by a camera system?
A The registered license plate holder receives the ticket, regardless of who was driving the vehicle.
This site (http://www.torontotraffictickets.com/redlight.html) outlines some relevant portions of the act. Really though, I think the bottom line is they're saying it's not worth trying to fight it.
You must stop if you can do so safely; otherwise, go with caution.
That's the way I learned it back in 1960. Some things never change.
"if your buddy runs a red light with your car then either 1) ask your buddy to pay the fine or 2) don't lend your buddy the car anymore and pay the fine yourself."
Right except maybe you lend your car to several friends and one or two family members on a reg basis... without keeping some sort of detailed trip log... how exactly will you know which person ran the light... ah well... too bad... u pay.
See, the thing here is, honestly, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. There is a big part of me that thinks absolutely increase the fine, it's the part where you can be held liable for something that you didn't do that makes me feel a bit antsy... Apparently not antsy enough to get me off the fence, but antsy nonetheless.
If its the same over in Canada getting a $500 fine when your mate runs a red light is a lot cheaper than getting done for driving without insurance or smashing into someone with none.
However, no demerits points should be charged for either red light cameras or speed cameras.
But $500 seems like a little much, yes? $180 is appropriate already.
And where are the police? In all the years I've lived here I've never seen them enforcing this. They like to pick off speeders on major streets because it is easy. Police presence assists with awareness, cameras do not.
Not paying attention while driving is JUST AS BAD as people who purposely run red lights. Either action can kill someone.
Ryan - point taken. I don't for a second think that running a red by accident is acceptable, my point about running a red by accident was actually just that if someone did that they probably wouldn't know they did, and so not know that it had resulted in a ticket sent to the owner of the car, so the owner of the car gets the consequence of the person not paying attention.
BUT if there is an intersection where a disproportionate number of cars are running red lights, then the issue is with that intersection's design.
For example, in some intersections the lights are hidden by billboards or trees or around blind corners, so that a driver coming into view of an amber light can have no way of knowing if that light has been amber for 2 seconds or 20 seconds. Jam on the brakes and risk a rear-end collision or sail through? There's no way of knowing. There are also some intersections where the amber light is unusually short, to the point that even a car travelling at the speed limit (it does happen) must brake unsafely to avoid entering the intersection on the red.
Red light cameras have a minor utility in the fist case; but if the city really cared about making intersections safer they would be better off spending our money to fix the second case.
I've done that 1.3 second right turn once, got caught by a camera, fought the $180 ticket and reduced it down to $80 or so, but even then, that was just b.s. cash grab...
So, I looked around, and finding that plate spray was a blessing - for mere $30 I had both of my cars' plates covered, and I don't worry about those damn cameras anymore (haven't gotten a ticket on any of the cameras since).
Sure, I would not suggest you getting one of these if you're a reckless driver, but for someone like me who's so-so safe driver (hey, I'm not perfect), it's a great stress reliever...
I imagine this isn't legal, right? The theory is that no one can tell it's sprayed in person, it has to be on camera? So, what would be the consequences of being caught? Anyone have any idea?
And avoiding 407 cameras? Not a good idea... again, this is something to be used to avoid dumb red light camera charges, not avoid paying highway tolls. And even if you tried, they have a team of actual people (gasp!) going through all the camera shots of cars whose plates could not be identified by the system itself, and they will get a hold of you... sure, with a few months delay, but still, they will get a hold of you and ask for their money.
Think motorcycles on 407 - those cameras can't ID their plates because they are different size and are on a different height than the ones on cars, so most of those get processed manually.
If I ever get caught going through a red light I will fight it as I have the same rights as cyclists - to go right through them. Of course I won't, but the idea of turning left, then the light turns amber, then pedestrian think it's their right to walk through a flashing red hand but insist on walking as fast as their pet snail, the the motorist finally turns then get dinged because the light turned red. Is that my fault?
contact: Tel: 416-322-2874, Toll Free: 1-866-928-0899.
We can answer any questions in regards to fines and demerit points.
but did not pass the intersection fully. There was enough space for a car from the other lane to turn right which one car did. I noticed camera lights flashing. Will I in this case get a ticket.
Will appreciate if someone could answer my question so that in the future I could be more careful to avoid this kind of a situation.
Thanks
Sam
Do not go on the drivers driving record, (drivers abstract)
Do not go to your insurance company
Will NOT affect your insurance rates
No record is kept of the charge
The charge is a fine only, of 180 dollars
If you go to court they will normally reduce the charge from 180 to about 50 dollars on a guilty plea.
Have the same weight as a parking ticket
If you have any other questions about red light camera tickets you can call OTT Legal for free advise.