Are Cookie-Cutter Condos Ruining Toronto?

It's an interesting question, though if you read the local design press in any North American city they all think that the problem is biggest in their own town. Kind of like how all college students think their campus has the worst dating scene while every other college is constantly hooking up.

The grass is greener, as they say, and everyone remembers the very few successful design cases around the continent while forgetting the mass of blah that makes up 95% of all construction, of all kinds, in all places. If everyone has the same problem, I'm not so sure any one city can change the pattern, no matter how much it might like to.

Cookie cutter anything is bad. Density and intensification are all great speaking from a planning/environmental viewpoint. However, cookie cutter condos will just end up doing the same thing that cookie cutter houses ended up doing to suburbs, the ruin them.

Humans needs variety and excitement. End of story.

There is no code, law and design principle that states that all condos MUST look the same. The only reason they do is because its cheaper for developers. And because people are all too scared to do anything different than the status quo. (Ok so there are two reasons).

If Toronto is ever going to stop being the black hole of design that it currently is, there needs to be an emphasis on creativity AS WELL AS intensification. The market is booming and these condos are going to sell regardless, so the city needs to be tough with developers and demand more creative design guidelines.

Are Cookie-Cutter Condos Ruining Toronto?

YES!

I know everyone seems to have a big hate-on for Cityplace but I never quite got it. The land on which it sits is a shithole: squished between the Gardiner and the train tracks. Now there's a whole community there, a ton of people. People who are going to go shopping, step out for coffee, etc. in the surrounding hood; going south to the Waterfront or North towards King St. If they hadn't gone and built it, the land would probably still be a pitch-n-put/driving range. I kinda like the way the two big towers frame the south end of Spadina, sort of like a pair of gigantic watch towers.

As far as n-box goes, LOVED it. But goddamn they were pricey. They cost twice per square foot what the already overpriced houses in the surrounding area cost. The people paying the big bucks at 1 Bloor St. are mostly spending foreign money that sees value in such a high profile location in one of the World's major cities. N-box is tailored to a very specific types: urbanites with a strong contemporary design aesthetic and deep pockets. That's a nice audience. The sad truth is that there's not a lot of love for wilder contemporary design and those of us who are ill-fated enough to have such tastes have to pay through the nose for it (or bemoan the fact that we can't afford it). Meanwhile, new faux-Victorian shite is always in demand.

I don't totally get what people mean by cookie-cutter anyway. Look at Cityplace vs the two big towers at College park vs 1 Bloor St. They look pretty different to me. There's going to be a lot of commonality between any modern high rises.

in my 2nd para: "nice audience" = "niche audience"

What will be ruining Toronto next week? Stay tuned!

Torontonians are chicken-$#!+$ that's why it failed (and I guess the $$$ for N-Box)... then again, unique designs can be successfull, so long as the price is right... best example: the "Marilyn" Aboslute condos... they're gorgeous and relatively affordable. (www.absolutecondos.com)

They gotta build more of these "out-there" designs. TO is getting way too drab!

the nbox is not close to subway... and they should have marketed it in Asia first... the same price will only get you a parking spot in Asia..

NBloxx priced in upper $600/sqf which is anything but an investment. I went to the opening, picked up the plans, read the price, put them down and walked out.

To me personally condos really matter on the inside... I don't often get see what my place looks like with it being on 18th floor and all...

What's really bad are houses being built right now. Imagine a Lego set with thousands of pieces and all kinds of shapes, but no matter how you put it together it always, always looks identical to the previous one... Now pick up "new homes" magazine and flip through the pages.

I'm on a hunt right now for a house which doesn't look like it came from a cloning factory. I'm not going as far as to actually be looking for a prefab house because there arent any, but something that looks remotely modern on the inside and outside. Two years and still looking.

Oh ya, forgot to say... For design to be successful, it needs to be affordable.

Affordable and remotely modern? good luck. Look at all the new townhouses in the Liberty village area. Generic crap. Would it have killed them to have some vaguely modern design?

I've been lucky enough to live in several major cities in my lifetime and I have to say, much as I love it, Toronto has the worst control over development and heritage that I've ever seen. The condo developments in Toronto, especially along the lakefront just seem completely out of control and ill-planned. Other cities have condos, sure, but there are regulations and aesthetic controls that do a much better job of helping the developments fit in as part of an effective overall control.

There's barely any heritage left standing here and the city has been cut off from one of its greatest assets, the lakefront, by a row of broken teeth developments and the Gardiner.

I find myself comparing Toronto to Sydney a lot. I know there are a multitude of factors to take into consideration when comparing the developments of two modern cities but, ceteris paribus, Sydney has retained much of its heritage as active parts of the city that draw tourists and locals, while, bar a few individual examples, all that's left of Toronto's seems to be hermetically sealed in the Distillery (which ironically is itself being violated by a new condo development). Sydney has done amazing things with its waterfront, making it one of the most pleasant places in the world to be despite the presence of a large naval base, traffic conduits and condos, while Toronto has separated itself from the water and developments and any public access areas seem to be nothing but afterthoughts. I could go on but I'm sure I don't have to.

As I said, I do love Toronto, but my feelings for this city are based on the people I know and the experiences I have here, it's a great city of people and communities, of opportunities, but it could have been so much more. Without a radical rethinking of development in the city and decades of 'corrections' costing billions this is never going to be one of the world's beautiful places.

I now live in Spain where condos literally *are* blocks of concrete. Last summer I visited my former city of T.O. and was constantly amazed at the variety of design in the condo buildings. Inside they are ugly (I've lived in a few), but from the outside, many of them are quite interesting to look at.

Everything is relative!

Condos are for suckas.

One big reason for cookie cutter condos is that bank will not finance condos with any "Cutting Edge" look/design. If the construction doesn't have any track record for profit won't get banking backing - and nothing gets built without banks.
Also, our climate (Hot summers - cold winters) limits the designs available to us. All this snow and ice gets dangerous on buildings with funky designs.

Because of the really high demand for condos, it could be feasible for design boards to pressure developers to make the buildings more distinctive, or at least improve materials or eliminate those ugly utilitarian structures placed on the roofs.

Are condo's ruining Toronto, well I think it also depends on what part of the city we are talking about. In Scarborough for instance, I think condo developments around the Town Centre and Warden station are welcomed additions. It increases density and adds variety to a residential scape mostly dominated by single family dwellings. Many families who call Scarborough home also find it difficult to put down 325k plus for a starter home.

after having lived in major cities in both Asia and North America, I have to say Toronto has the best condo, esp in recent years.. our condo is way better that those in NYC, first of all, we don't have those ugly fire escapes outside the building..with so little money, we can get amazing condo living space.. take a look at those in hk.. condo over $1 million, you see your neighbors hanging their bras outside the balcony to get them dry...you hear marjong noise till 2am.. you hear cab driver shouting on the street..if you are lucky, your windows are over 12 inches from that of your neighbors.. so torontonians, just be thankful you can still get a decent one bedroom under 300k in downtown.. a typical family of 4 live in an apartment under 300 sq ft in hk.. they have the kitchen in the hallway, and share bathrooms with other residents.

Jack you are crazy. Prices in Hong Kong are expensive because wages are much higher there. It is also an island. You cannot compare prices in Toronto to any other city without factoring in the average income in the other city.

Whenever anyone tells you that Toronto is cheap compared with other world cities turn around and run for the hills! It is pure cheap salesman-speak and nothing else. Real estate is local and eventually the mass market will begin to understand this simple concept.

Toronto real estate is priced according to what local Toronto residents can afford. It makes no difference at all what prices are in London, England, New York City or Tokyo.

The condo boom is fantastic for Toronto. Sadly many of the mega projects lack any visually appealing qualities. CityPlace is a massively regrettable future urban ghetto. It is quite disappointing to see a foreign conglomerate leave such a ugly stain on our landscape. They will be long gone by the way this albatross begins to show rust in the next few years and owners slowly allow it to fall into disrepair.

The people of Toronto deserve better. Perhaps one day there will come to realize it and wake up and demand higher standards in urban planning and design. Toronto is an incredible city with unbelievable energy. Let's not forsake that unique quality and strive for better buildings to go with better citizens!

Toronto's Real Estate Market is starting to lose steam fast...

Toronto's real estate market shows signs of cooling down

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/02/05/toronto-s-real-estate-market-shows-signs-of-cooling-down.aspx

By the way sales for the first half of this month were down 14% from the same time-frame last year.

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=823296&k=toronto real estate board

BigBuildings,i can guarantee you that the salary in hk for most jobs is not that much higher than that in toronto, if you take into acccount the lack of any kind of social security available to you in hk, ie unemployment insurance, health, etc.. if it was higher, i would have moved back as opposed to living in toronto for the last 18 yrs.. Your point about real estate priced at what the locals can afford is also unfounded.. Look at NYC, most people cannot afford even a 300 sq ft studio downtown as they cost over $800k, and a run down bachelor rents for close to $2k per month! That's why in Japan, banks offer mortgage that takes 2 generations to pay off

There are so many condos, and while they represent a good way for young people to get into homeownership, they stink as a form of longterm investment. If you buy from the developer, you are in a better position to make some money when you sell. However, you are at the mercy of the developer in terms of when you close and what you get in the end. Toronto is getting terrible in terms of affordability within the city. Who wants to move to Burlington?!

opensource:
"Toronto is getting terrible in terms of affordability within the city."

Exactly, which is why the Real Estate Market is tanking in Toronto...

Toronto realtors report big drop in sales

Sales in City down 18%, sales in suburbs down 11%

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/305513

The NBlox condos were way too overpriced. Yes people will pay high prices for Bay Street or 1 Bloor, but they are not going to pay $800,000 for a small unit in Little Italy. This condo should have been built in the Yorkville neighborhood and it would have sold quickly.

On another note, I am getting tired of all they insanely tall condos in the city. There is no sunshine left and the wind tunnels are terrible. A city like Manhattan works because there is high density, but the buildings are on a human scale. I am very depressed by this new trend in Toronto. It's the very naive, insecure attitude that bigger is better that is leading our provincial city to build such oversized monstrosities everywhere.

I think City Place is a tragedy for this city. Have a look inside those towers, they are so cheaply built that they'are already falling apart. This land could have been used to create a stunning urban park for Toronto -- like Central Park in New York, that Torontonians and tourists could have enjoyed for centuries. Instead we have an upscale ghetto in its place. This is truly, truly a tragedy for this city.

With more and more condos going up, I hope that the city will begin closing off smaller streets downtown and creating mini urban parks with grass, trees, shrubs, flowers, fountains in it's place. Otherwise this unbearable concrete jungle of a city is going to become even more depressing a place in which to live.

I suppose we could've pulled off a Seattle-style "park over rail lines" concept.

Completely burying the trains in a tunnel would also help.

Still, we're stuck with it - wonder how we can make them better? I hear more stores on the way. I suppose that helps.

You really have to travel 10 or 20 minutes outside the downtown core - or just fly over the city - if you think it's a concrete jungle. The one thing that always amazes me when I return home in clear weather is how much GREENERY there is all over the city.

A sidestreet won't give you the green. Go to the island, High Park, the beaches. You'll find greenery. It's not great to be surrounded by concrete all day long, but there's more to the city than the little orbit you find yourself running around in, really.

Donna,

My girlfriend bought her CityPlace unit last year and consequently I've spent a lot of time there. What you're saying is nonsense.

"Have a look inside those towers, they are so cheaply built that they'are already falling apart"

What are you basing this on? Nothing is "falling apart" from what I've seen. The interior is at worst average compared to most other high rises in the city. The interior fixtures, doors, windows, etc. seem solid. The kitchen is attractive with nice touches like a marble counter top. It's a comfortable place to live.

Are you suggesting that the buildings aren't structurally sound? Some how I doubt that, and even if it were true, it couldn't be determined by a layman merely "having a look inside".

What exactly is an "upscale ghetto"? That just sounds contradictory to me and thus meaningless. "Ghetto" refers to an area that is impoverished and culturally/ethnically isolated relative to the greater city. CityPlace, occupied by predominantly middle class white-collar professionals, from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds, is neither of these things. It is, as you say, "upscale", and there is no sign of that changing anytime soon.

It's no Central Park, sure, but it's pleasant enough for the 100's of people who live there and it's certainly better than the wasteland it was before.

For the most part, I think higher density development like CityPlace is a good thing for Toronto since it will make things like mass transit and Donna's beloved parks all the more feasible.

The knocks I've heard against CityPlace are as follows:

- it's isolated from the surrounding community and not pedestrian friendly
- it isn't integrated into a mixed use neighborhood with workplaces, retail, and residential space combined (as St. Lawrence market is, for example)
- it reminds some of a "new St. Jamestown"--a huge monotonous block of towers in the sky, originally intended as a hip/young upscale community

The units I've seen have been okay inside.

It's no Central Park, sure, but it's pleasant enough for the 100's of people who live there and it's certainly better than the wasteland it was before.
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Better than before is hardly a worthy objective of a city with the financial, cultural and intellectual abilities of Toronto.

CP is a modern ghetto, a bona fide grad school dorm for the gen-y crowd that will swiftly fall into the abyss when the next generation shuns it for more established neighborhoods.

The City gets mega tax revenue, the general contractors get mega contracts, and above all the foreign conglomerate make hundreds of millions in profit that doesn't get reported in Canada. The speculators make a few bucks but in the end We The People get nothing but an eyesore.

Personally I'd rather have seen an office tower complex in the market supported it or an urban park with some unique retail attractions.

By the way Jack, you been smoking some mighty strong herb pal. Salaries in Manhattan are at least twice as high as Toronto, taxes are lower plus it is an island. I can't speak about salaries in HK but it too is an island. Not to mention that both cities are true world centers of commerce and trade. Toronto is amazing and the only place I'd ever want to live but it doesn't measure up to NYC, HK, London, Toyko. Those are all far larger ciies with enormous demand for travel and tourism.

The 'cheap by global prices' argument is ridiculously moot (something Harry Stinson would have said) and I will continue to shoot it down for its patently false assumptions.