City
Are Cookie-Cutter Condos Ruining Toronto?
It's a question that gets asked a lot in this city. We are now the condo capital of North America, selling more of these concrete boxes in the sky than cities like New York and Chicago. We are obviously in love with condos, but are they good for us? Architectural critic for the Globe, John Bentley Mays, will be doing a live web-chat on the subject today at 1pm.
Mays recently wrote a piece expressing his disappointment with the failure of an architecturally unique condo development on College Street. N-Blox was something new for Toronto-a high end, boutique style condo on a major pedestrian street with a real focus on architectural excellence. It looked like something out of Berlin or Amsterdam, certainly nothing like it in Little Italy.
I was a big fan of N-Blox when it was announced last year. I thought it represented a major leap forward in condo architecture for this city. Unfortunately, no units were sold in the building so the developer completely changed the plans into something a little more cookie-cutter for Toronto and it sold out in a matter of hours.
Admittedly, the high prices in the original design (around $750,000 for 1000 square feet) played a role in the project's failure, but after seeing condos at 1 Bloor sell for prices much higher than that, I have to wonder why Torontonians don't seem to want to embrace new and exciting architecture.
Join the conversation on globeandmail.com today at 1pm EST and throw your 2 cents in on the issue.
Andrew la Fleur is a registered real estate agent and regular contributor of blogTO.
Photo by Reza Vaziri from the blogTO Flickr pool.
Discussion
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The grass is greener, as they say, and everyone remembers the very few successful design cases around the continent while forgetting the mass of blah that makes up 95% of all construction, of all kinds, in all places. If everyone has the same problem, I'm not so sure any one city can change the pattern, no matter how much it might like to.
Humans needs variety and excitement. End of story.
There is no code, law and design principle that states that all condos MUST look the same. The only reason they do is because its cheaper for developers. And because people are all too scared to do anything different than the status quo. (Ok so there are two reasons).
If Toronto is ever going to stop being the black hole of design that it currently is, there needs to be an emphasis on creativity AS WELL AS intensification. The market is booming and these condos are going to sell regardless, so the city needs to be tough with developers and demand more creative design guidelines.
YES!
As far as n-box goes, LOVED it. But goddamn they were pricey. They cost twice per square foot what the already overpriced houses in the surrounding area cost. The people paying the big bucks at 1 Bloor St. are mostly spending foreign money that sees value in such a high profile location in one of the World's major cities. N-box is tailored to a very specific types: urbanites with a strong contemporary design aesthetic and deep pockets. That's a nice audience. The sad truth is that there's not a lot of love for wilder contemporary design and those of us who are ill-fated enough to have such tastes have to pay through the nose for it (or bemoan the fact that we can't afford it). Meanwhile, new faux-Victorian shite is always in demand.
I don't totally get what people mean by cookie-cutter anyway. Look at Cityplace vs the two big towers at College park vs 1 Bloor St. They look pretty different to me. There's going to be a lot of commonality between any modern high rises.
They gotta build more of these "out-there" designs. TO is getting way too drab!
To me personally condos really matter on the inside... I don't often get see what my place looks like with it being on 18th floor and all...
What's really bad are houses being built right now. Imagine a Lego set with thousands of pieces and all kinds of shapes, but no matter how you put it together it always, always looks identical to the previous one... Now pick up "new homes" magazine and flip through the pages.
I'm on a hunt right now for a house which doesn't look like it came from a cloning factory. I'm not going as far as to actually be looking for a prefab house because there arent any, but something that looks remotely modern on the inside and outside. Two years and still looking.
There's barely any heritage left standing here and the city has been cut off from one of its greatest assets, the lakefront, by a row of broken teeth developments and the Gardiner.
I find myself comparing Toronto to Sydney a lot. I know there are a multitude of factors to take into consideration when comparing the developments of two modern cities but, ceteris paribus, Sydney has retained much of its heritage as active parts of the city that draw tourists and locals, while, bar a few individual examples, all that's left of Toronto's seems to be hermetically sealed in the Distillery (which ironically is itself being violated by a new condo development). Sydney has done amazing things with its waterfront, making it one of the most pleasant places in the world to be despite the presence of a large naval base, traffic conduits and condos, while Toronto has separated itself from the water and developments and any public access areas seem to be nothing but afterthoughts. I could go on but I'm sure I don't have to.
As I said, I do love Toronto, but my feelings for this city are based on the people I know and the experiences I have here, it's a great city of people and communities, of opportunities, but it could have been so much more. Without a radical rethinking of development in the city and decades of 'corrections' costing billions this is never going to be one of the world's beautiful places.
Everything is relative!
Also, our climate (Hot summers - cold winters) limits the designs available to us. All this snow and ice gets dangerous on buildings with funky designs.
Whenever anyone tells you that Toronto is cheap compared with other world cities turn around and run for the hills! It is pure cheap salesman-speak and nothing else. Real estate is local and eventually the mass market will begin to understand this simple concept.
Toronto real estate is priced according to what local Toronto residents can afford. It makes no difference at all what prices are in London, England, New York City or Tokyo.
The condo boom is fantastic for Toronto. Sadly many of the mega projects lack any visually appealing qualities. CityPlace is a massively regrettable future urban ghetto. It is quite disappointing to see a foreign conglomerate leave such a ugly stain on our landscape. They will be long gone by the way this albatross begins to show rust in the next few years and owners slowly allow it to fall into disrepair.
The people of Toronto deserve better. Perhaps one day there will come to realize it and wake up and demand higher standards in urban planning and design. Toronto is an incredible city with unbelievable energy. Let's not forsake that unique quality and strive for better buildings to go with better citizens!
Toronto's real estate market shows signs of cooling down
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/02/05/toronto-s-real-estate-market-shows-signs-of-cooling-down.aspx
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=823296&;k=toronto real estate board
"Toronto is getting terrible in terms of affordability within the city."
Exactly, which is why the Real Estate Market is tanking in Toronto...
Toronto realtors report big drop in sales
Sales in City down 18%, sales in suburbs down 11%
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/305513
On another note, I am getting tired of all they insanely tall condos in the city. There is no sunshine left and the wind tunnels are terrible. A city like Manhattan works because there is high density, but the buildings are on a human scale. I am very depressed by this new trend in Toronto. It's the very naive, insecure attitude that bigger is better that is leading our provincial city to build such oversized monstrosities everywhere.
With more and more condos going up, I hope that the city will begin closing off smaller streets downtown and creating mini urban parks with grass, trees, shrubs, flowers, fountains in it's place. Otherwise this unbearable concrete jungle of a city is going to become even more depressing a place in which to live.
Completely burying the trains in a tunnel would also help.
Still, we're stuck with it - wonder how we can make them better? I hear more stores on the way. I suppose that helps.
You really have to travel 10 or 20 minutes outside the downtown core - or just fly over the city - if you think it's a concrete jungle. The one thing that always amazes me when I return home in clear weather is how much GREENERY there is all over the city.
A sidestreet won't give you the green. Go to the island, High Park, the beaches. You'll find greenery. It's not great to be surrounded by concrete all day long, but there's more to the city than the little orbit you find yourself running around in, really.
My girlfriend bought her CityPlace unit last year and consequently I've spent a lot of time there. What you're saying is nonsense.
"Have a look inside those towers, they are so cheaply built that they'are already falling apart"
What are you basing this on? Nothing is "falling apart" from what I've seen. The interior is at worst average compared to most other high rises in the city. The interior fixtures, doors, windows, etc. seem solid. The kitchen is attractive with nice touches like a marble counter top. It's a comfortable place to live.
Are you suggesting that the buildings aren't structurally sound? Some how I doubt that, and even if it were true, it couldn't be determined by a layman merely "having a look inside".
What exactly is an "upscale ghetto"? That just sounds contradictory to me and thus meaningless. "Ghetto" refers to an area that is impoverished and culturally/ethnically isolated relative to the greater city. CityPlace, occupied by predominantly middle class white-collar professionals, from a wide range of ethnic backgrounds, is neither of these things. It is, as you say, "upscale", and there is no sign of that changing anytime soon.
It's no Central Park, sure, but it's pleasant enough for the 100's of people who live there and it's certainly better than the wasteland it was before.
For the most part, I think higher density development like CityPlace is a good thing for Toronto since it will make things like mass transit and Donna's beloved parks all the more feasible.
- it's isolated from the surrounding community and not pedestrian friendly
- it isn't integrated into a mixed use neighborhood with workplaces, retail, and residential space combined (as St. Lawrence market is, for example)
- it reminds some of a "new St. Jamestown"--a huge monotonous block of towers in the sky, originally intended as a hip/young upscale community
The units I've seen have been okay inside.
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Better than before is hardly a worthy objective of a city with the financial, cultural and intellectual abilities of Toronto.
CP is a modern ghetto, a bona fide grad school dorm for the gen-y crowd that will swiftly fall into the abyss when the next generation shuns it for more established neighborhoods.
The City gets mega tax revenue, the general contractors get mega contracts, and above all the foreign conglomerate make hundreds of millions in profit that doesn't get reported in Canada. The speculators make a few bucks but in the end We The People get nothing but an eyesore.
Personally I'd rather have seen an office tower complex in the market supported it or an urban park with some unique retail attractions.
The 'cheap by global prices' argument is ridiculously moot (something Harry Stinson would have said) and I will continue to shoot it down for its patently false assumptions.