No More Sheppard Subway??!!

God, this is awful. How could this news possibly arrive on the same day  as the "most ambitious environmental plan in North America?" The environmental impact of this decision alone will be disastrous, to say nothing of the impacts on day to day life in Toronto. Cognitive dissonance doesn't begin to describe it. This is an out and out clusterfuck.

I am not sure this means no LRT since it is now being funded primarly by the province's MoveOntario project, assuming that the province actually ends up going through with it.

I am not sure this means no LRT since it is now being funded primarly by the province's MoveOntario project, assuming that the province actually ends up going through with it.

The details of the whole thing are very unclear now, but I can't imagine that TTC is putting no money into LRTs.  I may be wrong, but, I mean, if they are planning to close the subway line that's already there just because they can't afford to operate it, any kind of expansion seems out of question, for the short term anyway.  Of course, it's not as though the TTC has been sentenced to death - there will be new fiscal years and new budgets, and eventually progress (hopefully, anyhow) including construction of LRTs and new streetcars et cetera et cetera - but for right now things are looking rather bleak.

This is insane!  It almost seems like an idle threat.

Am I the only one who sees here a cognitive dissonance so intense that I worry about my brain short-circuiting??

 Yes.  Toronto is the only major city in the world where the its higher levels of government do not contribute substantial (50%+)  amounts of funding.  You are talking as if this is something we want to do.  Of course the city wants to be environmental, but that takes money, money we don't have because short sighted people cared so much about a lowsy $65 a year for their car.

This is bad news for all those expansion projects ... even with the construction taken off their hands, how can the TTC possibly pay for their operation?

I guess we won't have to worry about the historic signs being changed now...

You silly kids are falling for that cynical game of political brinksmanship that "those in power" play when they don't get their way

A so-called "left-leaning" council chopping programs and shutting down the Sheppard subway line? Come on, that sounds like a poor April fool's gag to me.

That said, the 23 councillors who voted against the tax measures are playing a cynical game as well -- hoping to make the city's budget deficit a hot provincial election issue that the parties will have to pander to (and even promise to throw some money at).

There may be merit to this argument, but like the service cuts it all remains to be seen
.

The headline definately took me by surprise, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Instead of respecting the council vote against his increased taxes, Miller appears to be playing a petty and vindictive game. If he can't have his tax increase, then Toronto will have to suffer unreasonable funding cuts of his choice.  Where is vision and leadership? Squabbling kids, just like the photo sillyness earlier this year. It's just embarassing.

If these changes go through I'm moving to France!

The sheer fact that the city is proposing closing the entire Sheppard subway line pretty much tells you all you need to know about the Sheppard subway line. It's like McDonalds announcing they are taking the Filet-o-Fish off the menu.

WOW! Miller really wanted that tax increase! Now he's thrown a subway line and twenty bus routes out of his pram!!

Anyone else feel like Miller is punishing us?

Shocking how someone who claims to be an environmentalist makes cuts to public transit first! If he practiced what he preached, he might have considered a congestion charge in the first place.

Does anyone have Jane Pitfield's number?

Well at least Andrew LaFleur is still getting his real estate commissions from those first time buyers. Whew!

WOW! Miller really wanted that tax increase! Now he's thrown a subway line and twenty bus routes out of his pram!!

Anyone else feel like Miller is punishing us?

Shocking how someone who claims to be an environmentalist makes cuts to public transit first! If he practiced what he preached, he might have considered a congestion charge in the first place.

Does anyone have Jane Pitfield's number?

I have a cost-effective solution for retrofitting the signage to reflect the new TTC routes...

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=854995121&size=o

a black sharpie and liquid paper!!

Now... which land routes shall we cut?

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/pdf/ridership_cost_stats_bus_streetcar_05_06.pdf

I hope to God this is just a game of political chicken, as this seems absolutely insane.  In a city that is going to wither and die without more transit over the next generation, this is one huge leap in the wrong direction.  I mean, come on, the taxes proposed wouldn't be that bad, and would mostly be for those who could afford them anyway.

Whether it is a political game or a serious budget cut, the point is our city needs money. Money which should be coming from the Province and Feds. If this is what it takes to get them to give us money fine, but it also sends a message to those who didn't see the severity in our crisis. Deferring the taxes puts us further in the hole if the other two levels don't step up. Furthermore, taxes are going up anyway, but with less benefit to the city. Property taxes will be increased by 10%, meaning those who can't afford it will hit, rather than just those who have the money during the sale of a house. And the province gets some of those taxes, whereas the land transfer was pure Toronto capital. Miller is not punishing us, he is working with the mistakes of almagamation and everybody's favourite tacky furniture salesman, and not getting much help.

"Political chicken"?  Really? Give me a break.

I don't see what is so hard to understand.  The city is broke.  They had a solution, and it was voted down by councellors backed by the people in their ridings.  They are now left trying to opporate a city on a budget much less than what is needed.  Their only viable option is to cut services.  That's how the world works.  You can't just magic up money.

Did people honestly not expect this to happen?  The city can't rely on ottawa or ontario in ponying up the difference.  You all know as well as I do that we won't see a cent from them as long as the current parties are in power.

This is all posturing for the Provincial elections and fear mongering by bad policy magnet Miller. Just a week ago they were talking about the $100M revitalization of stations. Go ahead and shut down Shepphard subway. No one lives on Shepphard except for at Yonge St. Either the city needs to create incentives and coordinate urban planning to get the density up on Shepphard or shut it down. That line has minimal benefits.

As someone who uses the Sheppard line quite often, and whose wife uses it daily to get to work, I must respectfully disagree with Piero Rocca.? There are communities all along the Sheppard line, with condos going up at Bayview and many apartments and condos around Don Mills.? Once the Don Mills and Sheppard LRTs are created, the Sheppard line's usage will be almost as heavy as the Yonge/University line's.? No, the benefits aren't staggering now, but once this city has the transit infrastructure it needs, the Sheppard line will be invaluable.?

Shit like this --makes me happy I left Toronto

And they wanna be respected on a world level ....please!

Unfortunately the province is also in the hole .4 billion, isn't it?

The feds on the other hand posted a 13 billion surplus last year... Imagine what even half of that could do for Toronto and Canada by extension.

i wonder what will happen to the York university line plans, probably shelved again for the umpteenth time. 

It's time to allow for private -fare based- bus companies, like those in Hong Kong and other cities.

Allow private bus companies to collect fares and run regular routes.

This gets the city off the hook for funding transit, and it gets cars off the road. 

It is currently illegal to run a private bus service which collects fares. 

Mr. Miller,

Toronto, has floated this province, the entire country actually, for decades. We have been nationally vilified for equally as long, amazingly enough. However, we are the 800 pound gorilla in the room and with that goes some obligation to exert our power.

Since Queen's Park happens to be in the centre of our city maybe it is time we decided that they are no longer welcome here. Perhaps our provincial capital would better serve the needs of its population in Thunder Bay. Further to this, we favour a tax distribution based on population. Maybe Torontians should just cease paying provincial taxes all together. That would be a message, wouldn't it?

Mel Lastman was a quiet boy when he left office.  He had some medical issues and the various inquiries were going on so no-one really went after him.  But then he spoke out against the land tax and WHAM!  Miller killed his stubway.

 Probably not really, (either that it was Lastman motivated or that the Stubway will close) but it makes a good theory eh?

 I welcome this announcement - not that there will be cuts or fare hikes (I doubt there will be both and hopefully there will be neither) but a debate on how valuable our city services are and what is the fairest way to pay for them, and not simply force taxes down our throat which are inequitable simply because they are easy to collect.

Time to move to Calgary! Seriously, the cost of living in this city just just seems to grow day by day. Toronto is turning into a third-world city, and I'll be damned if I'm going to raise a kid in this place now. Luckily, I'm still a young man with oats to sow. Virility!

Don't you guys get it?

This is absolute BS.  Mayor David Miller is using fear mongering now because he's angry that he didn't get his way.  He's retaliating.  How is punishing public transit riders the way to go?  Frankly I was not opposed to a measly 65 dollar vehicle registration fee.  But because this is not approved, suddenly the major deems it necessary to punish public transit riders (who most probably can't afford a car)?  This seems like total and idiotic backwards logic.

I really hope people here stand up and don't take this BS anymore. I voted for David Miller, but now I see that he's a sore loser. 

 Suddenly the land transfer tax isn't looking so bad....

 I think that the people lobbying against the new taxes probably are the ones who own cars and houses and think that buses and streetcars are just in the way.

Steve Munro suggests cutting transit service in the wards of the TTC commissioners who voted to defer.

This reminds me of a time in the not too distant past when Toronto advertised they had money to fund a new park project. There was alot of talk around the subject at the time.  There was tons of media press on the idea of this new park theme and how it would really  benefit the city. Many landscape architects from around the globe prized the idea of this supposed opportunity. Meanwhile, a Danish landscape architect researched further into what Toronto could really afford..He noted that their budget was substantially lower than what they had made people believe, apart from the obvious help from the media....To make a long story short....In the end there was a park...it was designed with all the best intentions by the designer who noted the failures that Toronto was blind to see, and suggested an alternative that completely surprised the panel because it was sparce in comparision to all the other designs....When the panel asked him why he chose to design it this sparce..

      His response was ....." Thats all you can afford, and you don't even have a budget for  a park!"

 I guess what I am trying to say here is that, Torontonians are constantly be blinded by what is really going on in this city...The mayor and other councilors and officials, media included can talk all they want about what they think we need or what they have plans for in terms of making this city more "environmental" (god for bid they should try to use another word...cause Toronto has a long way to go before they can be considered environmentally friendly) but the fact still remains....We should not even be attempting to suggest new eco avenues until we as a city can actually stand on two feet...

I'm not that surprised. Money has to come from somewhere, and I had heard the TTC be used as a threat before (if we don't get these taxes, then the TTC needs to be cut). Actually I think it was TTC and city parks as well.

I'd sell ads.
Sure, it would suck to have more ads, but if that's what it takes to get the money, I'd do it.
Sell ads on the back of transfers, throw up more ads in stations, have ads play over the speaker system on the subway... bottom line is the city needs money.

It's not going to come from the province, as we've seen it's not going to come from taxes.

Either we cut services or we have more ads.  I'd rather have the ads.

Reading these idiotic comments from people like Alan and  StephenT  and Craig just reinforces to me how completely stupid some of the people who live in this city are. "Vision and leadership" won't make $570 million dollars appear out of nowhere. More than half of the city's services are already outsourced. Half of the city's budget is fixed by provincial law and can't be changed. The rest is police, fire, and other items that are hard to cut. What's left to cut to make up a $570 million gap? Transit and other programs. There simply isn't $570 million in waste in the City's budget.

I'm sorry.....KILL a $1 billion project? you mean actually let that tunnel rot?

 We don't have the funds to fix the issue, we don't have the funds to properly generate MORE, and we sure as shit don't have the brains to mend our current office. 

 It's time Toronto got on the Casino bandwagon and started allowing businesses to generate income and help our city dig out of this bullshit.

Ced "Money which should be coming from the Province and Feds."

Is Toronto getting more than its fair share of public funds then? If the problem is that there are too many cars, there are bylaws the city can impose on drivers to fix it, without tapping the rest of the country for money other people generated. 

Thickslab,

Maybe if the city properly managed their budget in the first place then these issues wouldn't happen. I find it quite ammusing that the mayor starts complaining that we have to start counting pennies when he goes and spends millions on renovating his office.

laugh.

You are right that the city deserves more money from the Province. But slamming public transit? The streets are already congested enough, now you want to take away transit services so people have to be forced to use cars?

I think a better idea would be to establish tolls on the inner city highways, etc. That would generate quite a significant amount of revenue, and also discourage vehicle use.

There's no need to be calling people "stupid" just because your opinion differs from someone else. I can't believe how ignorant some people like you are in this city.

Chris above is right about the Sheppard line. It may have been the wrong idea initially, but 5 years on it has begun to become integerated into the area, and is no longer as "unnecessary" as it was once considered.
The reality is that the often criticized condos may be a huge help in keeping the line alive. There is millions of dollars being invested by developers in condos all along the line, and the shutdown of the Sheppard line would create major hassles for these projects – many of which have yet to break ground.
Miller might not care about the citizens of his city, but with developers and businesses stepping it, it at least might add some needed weight to our side.

I think the Sheppard line should be subsidized by Ikea, 'cause really, where else is there to go on the Sheppard line?  (just kidding)

Seriously, I can't believe that people think this is actually Miller's retaliation for not getting his way.  He didn't want to increase the taxes in the first place.  

This is what happens when we have a hick running our country.  Harper and the old farts in Ottawa can't relate to us city-folk, so they're doing nothing to support our growth since there's no oil involved.  Maybe this will get people to get off their asses and vote next time?

Waterfront Casino.  What better way to bring money in and start revitalizing the waterfront at the same time.  The Casino -WILL- bring people in, it's a fact of life.  Businesses will follow.  Of course, chances are the island residents would complain, like they do when construction is planned for anything within a 10 km radius.

Casino eh?  All we need is a catchy name with some sex appeal... Mr. Burns' Casino!

Craig writes:

<i>Maybe if the city properly managed their budget in the first place then these issues wouldn't happen. I find it quite ammusing that the mayor starts complaining that we have to start counting pennies when he goes and spends millions on renovating his office.</i>

 Yawn. "Maybe if the city properly managed their [budget]." This just goes to show that you have no idea what you're talking about. This city is run pretty darn efficiently, and there's no way to get more than $500 million out of the city's budget in "efficiencies." It's just not possible. And when cuts are suggested, people complain. WELL, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT?

As for the renovations to Miller's office, they were cancelled.

<i>You are right that the city deserves more money from the Province. But slamming public transit? The streets are already congested enough, now you want to take away transit services so people have to be forced to use cars?</i>

 It has nothing to do with slamming transit. The city is more than $500 million in the hole and it needs to make cuts somewhere. Transit is, unfortunately, one of the few places where it has the ability to make cuts in operating budgets. Where else - police? firefighters? Those have been asked to make cuts too. Half the city's budget is mandated by the province and is not under city control.

<i>I think a better idea would be to establish tolls on the inner city highways, etc. That would generate quite a significant amount of revenue, and also discourage vehicle use.</i>

Do you really think that the councillors who voted against the motor registration fees and the land transfer tax would vote for road tolls? Even if they did, getting a road toll system in place on inner city highways would take some time; it would require an up-front expense and wouldn't generate money until the toll system is in place. And what if council voted against road tolls? Then where would it get money? The city would still need to make cuts.

<i>There's no need to be calling people "stupid" just because your opinion differs from someone else. I can't believe how ignorant some people like you are in this city.</i>

People who think $570 million can be sucessfully cut out of $4 billion in non-mandated spending simply by reducing waste are in fact stupid. It's people like you who think that the city is not in a huge fiscal crisis and who think that this is just grandstanding who are ignorant. 

Saskboy writes:

 Is Toronto getting more than its fair share of public funds then?

 Try less, much less. Toronto gets billions less each year from the province and the federal government than it pays in taxes.

 without tapping the rest of the country for money other people generated.

That's priceless. We're paying a big chunk of your bills out there, folks. Meanwhile places like Saskatchewan, which have been receiving equalization money for years, want to have their cake and eat it too. Nobody begrudges the rest of the country a fair deal in equalization money, but 

Thickslab,

So where exactly in the GTA do you live and do you enjoy driving your car?

Craig: What relevance is where I live or whether I drive a car?

 I'm not slamming transit, as anyone with adult reading comprehension could see. I'm pointing out that these cuts are a consequence of the vote by foolish City Councillors who didn't want to levy necessary taxes. It's not grandstanding, it's cause and effect.

 The bus I take to work is one of the ones that  will likely be cancelled, leaving me no way to get to work. I don't have a car, so I'll be fucked over. Do you think I want these cuts? I'm simply pointing out that they were inevitable given the idiotic decision not to raise taxes. 

 Tell me Craig, where in the GTA do you live and why are you so stupid? 

Jesus, you continue with the name calling. You only serve to make yourself look bad.

You must be the biggest David Miller Supporter i've ever seen! ;) Land Transfer Tax was a joke, i'm sorry. Vehicle Registration Fee I have no problems/gripes with.

There is quite a large number of individuals in this city, councillors included, who view these threats (ie. shutting down sheppard subway line) as bullying/fear tactics aimed at councillors who voted against these taxes.

I don't think this is the way to do it. I am sure there are other ways to aid the budget crisis other then immediately suggesting to shutdown a subway line. Maybe i'm just CRAZZZZYYY and STUPIIDDDD as you suggest, but I guess you'd then be pointing your finger at a rather large mass of intellects in this City who feel the same way.

I like this debate, it's quite amusing. You are definately the staunchest supporter next to Miller himself when it comes to this issue. I am almost inclined to think that you are somehow tied to him, as stupid/silly as it sounds (and probably not true either).

By the way, I voted for the NDP and David Miller. For the most part he has done a relatively good job. Just not impressed with the latest happenings.

If you want to turn this thread into an insult fest, by all means go ahead. I will participate no further if I need read "you are stupid" once more.

I'm sorry to hear about your bus.

To get to work I take a street car, subway, and then a YRT transfer at Finch. Ergo, I am quite a frequent user of the TTC, primarily for environmental reasons.

 Well it seems that everyone is passionate about this subject...I really believe the solution is Torontonians....only the people of this city have the ability to change what happens. If more people choose to drive, then they will make more roads...If more people are taking transit...then more will have to be provided...right now, these actions from city are the result of our own district councilors..they represent the issues for us...if they don't seem to be speaking out in your favour then maybe you all should do something....everyone wants things done but very few are willing to drive for those changes to occur....what side of the fence do you want to stand on.....? 

 it doesn't matter what we say here....what matters is how we act when these issues affect us and we choose not to take a stand...?

Craig, I'm not a Miller supporter. I have nothing to do with him and no connection to him whatsoever. I'm just a regular guy.

 I'm just pissed oiff at the stupidity of city councillors who voted against taxes (without proposing any alternatives of their own aside from idiotic "let's get rid of waste" bullshit, as if reducing "waste" can generate $500 million in cuts) and then complain when the consequences of that vote are made clear, consequences which should have been clear to anyone who's paid attention to politics in this city since 2000.

 None of this is news, and it was made very clear that with no reserves left, the city has hit a brick wall. There is no more cash lying around. If there are going to be no new taxes and no new provincial/federal funding, then the only thing left to do is cut spending by the $500 million necessary. It's not grandstanding, it's simple cause and effect. 

My apologies for the insult, Craig.

You do bring up some good points which is that, for example, reducing "waste" via the approved future methods will most likely not generate the needed funding. I agree completely when you state that province is giving us the old fork in the eye.

Would be fun if Toronto, in protest of the Federal Government's refusal to give 1 cent of the GST, would hold a "don't pay GST day" for Torontonians. This would send a clear message that we are all fed up with the bullshit with lack of federal funding.

I'm not sure how the federal government would react, or how they would punish, but it's fun to day-dream about what would happen if toronto businesses were encouraged not to charge GST for a day haha. Sadly I am sure they would be the ones punished..

A possible way to save money I think would be to cut plans for the subway line extension to York University. I used to go to York University, and frankly public transit there is adequate. I really don't feel that a subway line headed to York U is necessary, but perhaps a LRT (light rail transit) would suffice, cost less money and save the city some cash.

Just ideas.

This city is larger than most provinces.  This city is getting screwed by its province.  Hmm...  Anyone reading a constitutional lawyer?  I'd vote for succession in an instant.

Can we impeach the entire council?  Can we have a coup?  they obviously are PISS POOR at their jobs, and won't even take a pay cut to help out.  Screw their constituents, they can't possibly take a pay cut.

We can rise up and overthrow them, just like the Rose revolution, but this one would be a trillium revolution!  

Oh, wait, this is apathetic Toronto... 

I guess the TTC should be disbanded as an unefficient and money-losing service. And it's time to check up and ask Mr. Miller about the efficiency of spending our tax money.

Just reading these comments and wanted to thank thickslab for saying everything I wanted to say (including the insults - sorry Craig - I don't think you are stupid , just your thoughts on the issue).

I've created a handy guide for anyone who wants to guage their own thoughts on the issues at City Hall:

If <x's idea/opinion> equals <Rob Ford's idea/opinon>, then <x's idea/opinion> is likely really stupid. <x> does not equal <x's idea/opinion> but <Rob Ford> is a complete idiot. 

that's a great photo whoever took it!

No one lives on Sheppard except for the Sheppard/Yonge area? Tell that to the people who live in the condos on Bayview!

Seriously, Council never should have approved their salary increase. Maybe they should UNapprove it.