Fix Me, Can You Read the Signs?
You saved the Sam's sign and you're working on saving the CityPulse truck, but have you saved the TTC signs? As you may know the TTC plans on renovating, cleaning up, and upgrading numerous subway stations in the near future. During the renovations the TTC will remove a great deal of existing signage and replace it with new, updated signage similar to that now hanging along the Sheppard subway line.
While it's tough to argue that the subway renovations are unnecessary, some people take issue to the fact that the existing signage is going to be removed and destroyed. Joe Clark is one of those people. His hopes are twofold: Clark feels that the signage theme along the Sheppard line is inadequate for the rest of the system, and he feels that the original signs are too important to the city's history to be destroyed.
In the early 90s graphic designer Paul Arthur designed a new signage system for the TTC. His system included usage of individual icons for each subway station, more signage redundancy (using colours and images along with words), and pylon-style signage poles outside stations. Only part of St. George station was ever renovated to include these new signs. The city was not able to commit to the $8 million dollars needed to complete the project across the entire system. Many of the signs at St. George remain, including the pylon sign.
Photo: "Closeup: Line and transit indicators" by Joe Clark.
This summer the TTC plans to remove the Paul Arthur signs during the renovation of St. George station. They also plan to move some of the walls at Eglinton station to make more room. Some of the tiles at Eglinton station are the original tiles from when the station was first built. No other station on the Yonge line contains a sizable number of these tiles. Clark believes these signs and tiles, along with many other signs along the line, are an important part of TTC history and they should not be destroyed. Clark does not feel that the stations should not be renovated but he believes that the TTC artifacts should be preserved in some way, perhaps in a museum.
He also believes that the current signage system is inadequate and if it is going to be replaced serious thought should be put into the new signs. Clark states that the style of signage that lines the Sheppard subway is not adequate and it should not be duplicated along the entire line. He has recently taken his ideas to a Facebook group in hopes that this will spread his message and encourage debate on the quality of TTC signs.
The TTC's signage is not only inadequate, but it is also inconsistent and poorly developed. Not only is the TTC missing the point by planning to duplicate the Sheppard line signage (which Clark feels is a bad attempt at duplicating the subways in New York City) but it is also managing to destroy a little bit more of Toronto's history along the way.
Comments (23)
I'm all for preserving TTC Signage if it represents a historical item, however I think since it is part of the cities infrastructure it does require improvements and upgrades over time. I'm not sure what specific signage at Sheppard Joe has issue with, but on the subway platform the signage seems much better than on the rest of the system, in my opinion.
I have no emotional attachment to the St. George signage, and don't understand why there's much of a fuss over it's removal. It was never adopted, right? Why should a failed pitch be forever kept intact?
To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen the St. George signage in question. Or if I have, I didn't notice it.
The new subway station signage (like those along the Sheppard line) are clear, succinct, and works just fine. I don't understand why there is such a fuss about it. The main purpose of wayfinding is to inform passengers, in a consistent manner, how to get from A to B.
In contrast, it should most certainly NOT be about historical significance, especially on something that wasn't widely implemented and embraced in the first place.
Matt and Jerrold, you must have really good vision. Surprise, not everybody does. Oh, and have you tried to read the maps on the overhead signs?
It's the Paul Arthur signs at St. George that are important, Rick and Digit. As there are no other copies, they are indeed "a historical item" as Digit defines it.
"It's the Paul Arthur signs at St. George that are important, Rick"
I'm aware of that, I wrote that in the article.
All I said was that I don't think I've ever seen those signs myself.
I'm not sure that a failed sign redesign from less than 20 years ago counts as a significant piece of "Toronto's history". On the basis of his campaign website, Joe Clark seems overly obsessed with typefaces that the avg subway rider does not give a damn about. So many TTC stations are decrepit and in need of serious upgrading, I suspect that the vast majority of citizens would gladly support the proposals.
Joe: I never said I didn't see the signs, so I'm not sure why you're tossing petty "poor vision" insults my way. I have seen them, I know what they are, and don't think they're worthy of saving.
This is really getting ridiculous. Not everything needs to be saved, not everything is valuable. I think a photo is enough documentation for any kind of musuem piece.
I support a system wide replacement, even if it means destruction of irreplaceable signage. I don't think any existing TTC signage has historical (or any cultural) value, including the Paul Arthur work.
All that being said, I think the cleanup process should be subject to public input with respect to what the finished stations will look like.
I personally would like a more minimalist and uniform look to the stations.
I carry a lot of nostalgia with many parts of cultural heritage in this city (ie: Sam's sign, keeping the City TV truck etc..), and I live by St. George subway station. Personally, I don't see any point in keeping the St. George sign.
@Jonathan: "Signs" was never recorded by ELO. It was first made famous by Five Man Electrical Band.
Special to john (lower case sic): The Paul Arthur system wasn’t “failed.” It was tested against the existing system and beat it for all groups tested. I have, and have read, the test results. You seem to be mistaking “intentionally unimplemented” for “failed.”
Oh, and Sam and Jonathan, you understand that it’s cheaper and easier to pull off four strips of fibreglass and keep them than to pull them off and destroy them, right?
Sure. Photos. Sure.
This is not the sign to be saving - the (a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/joeclark/448669485/">winged TTC logo signboxes on poles are far more historical. But seriously, whatever. The tiles are also not worth the effort given that the original design was so lackluster. Please don't hinder the TTC's weak attempt at progress - we only get such efforts once a decade around here.
Jeez, we’re talking about Electric Light Orchestra now? And I thought *I* had trouble maintaining concentration.
uSkyscraper, believe it or not, I know that Informed People in the TTC realize that the 3D signs on (now very few) poles in the city are iconic and have a nice retro chic to them. They’re kind of hard to manufacture, though. My suspicion is if that problem can be worked out, we’ll be seeing more of them, instead of images of the TTC logo behind a screen, which is what Paul Arthur’s *and* the current TTC pylon signs have. (Though the Arthur redrawing of the logo should be put in place, I think.)
If you look really carefully at the planned Pape renos, those 3D logoboxes are going to be used. This is a de facto acknowledgement that the current TTC pylon signs suck. Which they do. (And they don’t even match each other – compare Queen and Osgoode.)
I say if it gets us a system-wide signage scheme that works, go right ahead and "remove and destroy" the old ones. The TTC is in a rather sorry state across the board, so if improving the signage is something they're actually willing to do I say let 'em. Yes, it may mean removing and destroying some "priceless" arrangements of tiles but unless there's a museum or storage facility willing to take them, and money for the painstaking removal and reconstruction, go ahead and remove and destroy them.
And one more time, because it's outrageous (-ly funny): remove and destroy!
A quick tally based on response in this thread:
Don't save the TTC signs = 10
Save the TTC signs = 1
A quick tally based on response in this thread:
Don't save the TTC signs = 10
Save the TTC signs = 1
Which just goes to prove that people who have no clue about what they're talking about will vote for a stupid option.
Yes, the old signs will be removed. What's so difficult about preserving them at the ROM where Arthur's papers are, donating them to Paul Arthur's family, or giving them away to transit fans? Why throw them in the trash when they could be preserved as a piece of work of one of Canada's famous designers?
The last doctor told me my Pneumonia was on the right side of my body, .....
because he could hear it! I just feel the congestion, vibrations from coughing, and soreness on the left side of my body. He knew the answers!
I'am just having a ball, playing around with these situations like a four-year old intelligent creature, while people keep saying I can't do this, or that, or know this or that.
Janice.
Sue the goverment for wrongful information injuring millions.
It's very easy and simple, but the people don't get it. So why would this solution work????????
Whey they SAID we have the ANSWERS and the MONEY to solve ALL the problems of the Transit Commission (even though Buses STILL use diesel and people still are choking from that air pollution), BUT "they"
forgot to just mention that the City of Toronto may be in jeopardy due to lack of funding, "THAT'S WRONG."
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