St. Clair Streetcar Gets Right-of Way

As a St. Clair & Dufferin resident who uses the TTC day in and day out, I think this is excellent news if it stands up.

But, even if it does, I'll most likely continue to boycott the stores which supported the SOS. :P

Fantastic news!

Now lets do the same with Queen, College, and Bathurst!

You might want to watch what you wish for. They can't do it on Queen or College(already assessed) because unlike St. Clair, the sidewalks are even smaller on those streets and vendors/cafes/etc would never let the TTC rob us of that kind of pedestrian space like will happen on, yes, St. Clair.

College was also seemingly too curvy for the plan to work.
And imagine Queen St without parking.

Tanja:

There is plenty of room on Queen Street to put in a ROW, even without narrowing the wide sidewalks already present - so long as you can get away from the false nessecity of having four automobile lanes.

There is no reason for the city to encourage people to drive their cars downtown - and Queen St without parking is a beautiful thought.

St. Dan, you might be forgetting the nessesary curbs for safety reasons (platforms and separating traffic from pedestrians). Read Barber's column in the globe today. What Queen needs is a subway. Like it or not, cars are a legitimate form of transportation for people and the businesses that make Queen viable to the community. But of course, I'd love to read your assesment report on the matter. Post the link.

Another matter you might want to consider. While Queen without parking might be a beautiful though, it is also a completely absurd one. Imagine, if you will,the traffic implications when one car stops at the side of the road(for what ever reason, delivery, run into a store or to let someone off). Since there would only be one lane per direction, traffic would have no where to go and Queen would become a useless roadway.

Also, Queen's sidewalks are really only wide between Spadina and Peter.

Cars are not just for 905 tourists on a Saturday. They deliver goods and bring people through the city and to Queen Street. You should realise that not everyone makes their livelihood through electronic media and they require that human beings and items physically arrive and leave Queen.

I wouldn't harp on this so much if you weren't running for city council.

Less pedestrian space is the ideal of the suburb not our city. You want to foster community not corridor. Reasons for people to get off the streetcar not get through you as fast as possible. Which mind you is a supposed 6 MINUTE total gain on St. Clair. Million of commission dollars for that... expensive minutes.

And no parking is not the answer. On St. Clair it means 2 lanes of traffic in which the ideal TTC assumes no truck or car will ever want to stop -- turning it into ONE lane of traffic.


On Queen street, if you stop to park your car you usually end up stopping one lane of traffic and one lane of streetcar. Even if they found a way to change the plan and make it possible to put in a lane there, that would mean extremely narrow sidewalks in order to get 2 lanes of traffic -- in which again, if you have one parker, that's one-lane gridlock.

Us cyclists will have to illegally take to the TTC lane not to get killed.

corso italia will never be the same with streetcars and vehicular traffic whizzing past. shame

Imagine, if you will,the traffic implications when one car stops at the side of the road(for what ever reason, delivery, run into a store or to let someone off).

WAITAMINNIT... they would have to park on a side street!

i gasp disingenuously in mock sympathetic horror!

The important part was "imagine, if you will"....

How will the car get around the stopped car to get to the side street on a one lane road? (4 lanes on Queen. 1 lane East, 1 lane west, two lanes ROW)

I agree, there are other parking options...but that's not the only issue.

I like the ROW on Spadina, Queen's Quay and even for St. Clair. But for Queen it doesn't make sense. Queen needs a subway.

Wait, I just read your post a bit differently...

Mews, are you suggesting that the people who stop (for what ever reason, blah blah blah) go park on a side street? And just making Queen a total no parking zone?

If so, consider my above post on the importance of deliveries to a city street. And Tanja's post on the importance of ample pedestrian space.

There is so much to consider, so many different users and uses of the space between the buildings. We can't just simply say, a ROW is good for St. Clair, therefore it is good for all the major roads in Toronto.

A subway for Queen makes no sense at all. For one, it would be horrible expensive, and there are plenty of other places that need the transit funding much more (such as rapid transit to replace the Scarborough LRT, for one).

Secondly, Queen St is a street that thrives on people - it is not a thoroughfare, but rather a gathering place, an outdoor mall, and a place to be - overground traffic, with frequent stops is essential for this. If you move people underground, you take the life with it.

There are plenty of other options besides having cars rush through Queen St - yes they are a mode of transportation, but they are not the only one, nor should they be given priority. People should be encouraged to take less destructive methods of transportation, especially downtown.

As for parking, there are both side streets, and parking lots (which can be built both upwards and downwards, allowing for more off-strett parking) and deliveries can be banned during rush hour.

It would be expensive but if a subway was constructed, would anyone complain?

As for Queen being a "gathering place"...I think Bloor street and the Danforth are doing pretty well overground and underground. Those who need to go through, go under. Those who want to stop by, go over. It works well.

Ask your future constituents which they would rather have.

Both of these options, ROW and subway will never happen anyway.

"Queen St without parking is a beautiful thought"... so beautiful!

..and to bike down queen st without getting doored would be a dream come true.

yup, if anyone has to stop (for delivery, whatever), they can park on a sidestreet and walk for a minute or two. unless they're delivering live human organs, things should work out ok.

sidewalk indentations (like the kind outside a store in yorkdale recently featured in the star's "the fixer") could be made here and there along the main artery (i actually think the city might look at dundas before queen) and set aside explicitly for people with mobility issues.

cars are promising to choke this city, and we might as well get a head start on the creative solutions which will eventually be forced on us like it or not.

In all honesty, the champions of the "people can park on the sidestreets" idea are probably letting their idealism get the best of them. 'People' could do that now when all spots are taken, but instead they double park and hold up traffic. We aren't going to rid the downtown of street traffic, we have to find ways to compromise for all sides... unfortunately, pedestrians just get the worst of all deals.

we aren't going to get rid of all downtown street traffic. but if we design our city so it isn't a given that anyone can drive whenever they want, eventually those people who don't really have to would take transit or bike.

i wasn't aware there was a way to live other than letting my idealism get the best of me... what else am i going to give my best to?

"but if we design our city"

Idealism is noble, I suppose, but realism and compromise will be what actually makes a difference.

The city does not own all the land in Toronto. Like it or not, property owners have a lot to say and will always have a lot to say in a capitalist society.

If you look at any western city (the ones that haven't been demo'd by war), the streets have evolved into what they look like today through a series of adjustments and compromises. That is the future of Toronto.

A Queen West subway, while a nice idea, is just not feasible. Surveying, construction, cost... it doesn't make any sense. Eglinton West is still waiting for its own line, after the Sheppard Line took its money and ran to IKEA.

I've been reading a lot about "compromise" between peds and drivers. Where has there been compromise up to this point? There hasn't been. *Begin bad B movie voice over* The cars have taken over!

As someone upthread stated, cars are choking our city - I couldn't agree more. I would love to see Queen West become ped-only but I doubt that would ever happen. One idea in that direction, however, is something similar to what London, Eng. did. They charge people a toll to enter the downtown core during peak hours in their cars. We should implement that here. Not only would it lessen the number of cars downtown, but it'd be extra revenue for the city.