Police Work to Rule - Miller Doesn't Work

You say, "the reality that Toronto is becoming more violent". I'd like to see the statistics on which you base this.

Unfortunately I don't have more recent data available (I'm willing to concede that it might skew in your favour), but the data available for the first half of 2005 doesn't agree with your statement.

See:
StatsCan http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm

Or Mike's Ramblings good summary http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/Ramblings/?p=16

Reality is as we perceive it, and there has indeed been a lot of media coverage suggesting that violent crime is out of hand; that doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

I'm not advocating that we should be complacent in accepting violent crime, nor unsupportive of the police, but rather that our proposed solutions to violent crime be kept in perspective with the reality, not perception.

Jason has proved to be a one-note chicken little. His posts betray the fact that he has little knowledge of how government works.

The fact remains that the violent crime in this city was a statistical blip. Unfortunate as it is to put into those terms.
Also, it was indeed unfeeling and inappropriate for Miller to not visit the families of shooting victims. But had he done so it would not have changed a damn thing.

Another fact, the police budget was increased this past year, and it was decided to add more police this past summer.

Under our system, which is not a so-called strong mayor system, Miller is but one vote on a council of many.

I also note that Jason is the only writer that doesn't link to a bio.

My mistake, there are more people without a bio than just jason.

I am not sure why I am even responding to this - if any of you would even begin to suggest that you "know more" than those who are on the ground - ie. the City of Toronto Police - then you will never convince me.

I trust the police in this city explicitly - are there the odd bad apples? Of course. However, when the ENTIRE city of Toronto Police force puts the City on notice that this is an issue - I will listen.

But for the record, if you want statistics on Violent Crime, please see below, this is not a blip, it has been a trend - a dangerous one since 1993, and even more recently since 2000.

I'm sorry but I would trade a few thousand extra shop lifters for 10 less deaths, assaults, or rapes.

Please see below:

In a December 2004 article on youth crime, the Toronto Sun reported the following: "While the number of all crime cases heard in Canadian youth court has dropped 20% over the last decade, violent crimes cases -- for homicide, sexual assault, assault and robbery -- have jumped 25% over the same period, reports Statistics Canada.

"Separate stats from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics (CCJS) show an increase of 13% in the youth violent crime rate between 1993-2003, with a significant jump in 2000 after a decade of relative stability." The complete article follows along with additional items.

So you are quoting Canada wide stats and presuming the same is true for Toronto? That is a classic case of flawed logic.

For all we know, Winnipeg might be skewwing the results.

Come on now, you can't be serious.

And this has nothing to do with trusting the police. The "job action" by police is about getting a better contract. But they aren't allowed to stike. Not about violence. Period.

Actually, the strike is about being overworked, and having too many hours demanded of them, and them being one of the lowest paid police forces in the country.

Being overworked, and having too many hours is a direct result of the increased demands the city has expected of them in response to the RISE IN VIOLENT CRIME.

Please refer to ANY of the dozens of news articles this summer. Homicide statistics do not lie, this is a record year.

Maybe this is an anomaly - HOWEVER - DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THAT CHANCE???

I know I wouldn't on my watch.

"The police are overworked"... what a joke. Toronto's budget is a mess largely because our police service is an unaccountable black hole of spending. The police budget has gone up, year after year, even as other essential services and programs are cut back, and still they demand more ('we need a helicopter!') Are we getting better policing as a result? who knows? how does one even measure such a thing? Surely if violent crime rates have increased (which they haven't), it would be proof of police incompetence, not justification to give them more money. The Toronto police have a really crappy clearance rate for major crimes (remember a few years ago, when a cop got shot in the face by jewellery thieves during a traffic stop? they were never caught). We're not exactly talking CSI, here. Most of the police are on the streets during the daytime, not at night - when most crimes occur. If your bike is stolen, or your home is burgled, you'll be lucky if the police even show up to take a report within 12 hours. This is the Toronto police at work. What, exactly, is the basis of your 'explicit' trust (ps, the term is 'implicit trust')? Certainly the police have had just as many scandals over the past few years as your favourite whipping boy David Miller & the gang at City Hall. Perhaps Miller should hire Batman, or the Punisher. Maybe that would suit your fantasies about violent crime and how it should be addressed.

Your use of caps reveal the desperation of your arguement.

So everytime the police have taken "job action" (maybe you don't remember but it happened before), it was due to fighting out of control gun violence?

As though every cop, on every beat, in every division, and on every corner were fighting thugs with guns. Toronto twin cities with Mogadishu.

I'll put my money that the "job action" has more in common with the BC teachers, or the CAW than anything else.

Paul,

With all do respect, if Toronto Police were to accept the deal as it currently stands they would become either the 11th or 39th (for some reason I cannot recall from what I have read) highest paid police force in Canada.

There is no reason in my mind why the Toronto Police Force should be paid ANYTHING but the highest salary in Canada.

I'm sorry you had your house broken into or you had your bike stolen - this really is not my concern, and directly links to my point about priorities. We need to address violent crime now.

Here is the fact as it now stands - the current homicide rate this year is 6.4 deaths/month. Last year it was 5.3 for the city of Toronto. 12 more deaths a year seems like alot to me. That is all I am saying.

I feel 12 more deaths (assuming it maintains it's current rate) is worth acting on.

This does not even include violent crimes. Which I would suspect with all the "attempted murders" and assaults, is also significantly higher - but we will have to wait and see.

These are the facts - not media hype.

This is going to sound heartless. Maybe I'm being heartless. But the trend over the last decade is still downward.

Does that mean that this is not the year that things start going the other way? Of course not.

Maybe the chicken littles of this world will be saying "I told you so" 5 years from now.

But what services do we cut and gut, to gain more police (or pay the same number more money) when we aren't even sure if this is a blip (as I contend it is) or the reversal of a 10 year trend (which if not probable, is at the very least possible).

As I've said before in other locations. The beef should be with the province. Give us new money (be it hand out or new deal) so we can pay big bucks to the cops and still have our pools and garbage collection. Toronto deserves it.

Just the facts.. this topic is a mine field.

Look at the chart on the top right of

this 345Kb pdf, which was part of the materials handed out during the
January 2004 Listening to Toronto events.

I cannot find an electronic copy of the hand out for the November 2004 Listening to Toronto event
but the hard copy shows the following, (in descending order for those who didn't look at the similar pdf above).

How your tax dollars worked for you in 2004.

Total $1,960 (Annual property tax for an averge house...)

Police Services & Board $453.30

Fire $199.06

Shelter, Housing & Support$182.77

Debt Charges $160.93

Social Services $146.68

TTC (Incl. Wheel Trans) $136.75

Transportation $119.25

Parks & Recreation $107.69

Then there is a dividing line showing that everything above this point comprises 75 percent of all city expenditures.
The remaining 25 percent is

Solid Waste Management $106.50

Library $86.15

Public Health $48.88.15

Children's Services $43.29

Emergency Medical Services $33.30

Information & Technology $26.93

eight more not listed here

Compare 2003 to 2004.
What do we see? Most things went up (Police services included),
while TTC and Social Services went down. That is history and
not new to anyone who'se been awake for the last few years.

Just the facts.

Sorry about the odd formatting above. The preview looked perfect, but the end result is completely different. Oh well..

Following up on the post by "Facts", here is police spending over the years:

(Property tax dollars per average household, Percentage of property tax spend)

1998: $355.21, 20.2%
2001: $383.22, 21.0%
2003: $431.20, 22.3%
2004: $453.30, 23.1%
2005: $462.09, 22.9%

In short, police spending under Mayor Miller and this council is higher than it was at any point under Lastman.

Just to clarify, I do not think I ever suggested that the efforts put forward by previous city administration's were any better.

1998: $355.21, 20.2%
2005: $462.09, 22.9%

Maybe I'm missing something, but where is the dramatic increase in spending here. True, property taxes increased by 31% (holy shit - 31%)according to your stats, but the spending on the police certainly didn't. Oh well, at least it's neat to dig up numbers from time to time.

I didn't say it was dramatic. I just said that police spending was higher than ever.

However, property taxes are not up 31% from 1998-2002. Your math isn't exactly right.

Per-household property taxes are up 15%
Per-household police spending from property taxes is up 31%

This means that more than 40% of every new tax dollar has gone to the police.

Total police spending is up even more than that, since we have more households now.

In any case, my argument is simply that if you believe the current Miller council has been negligent vis a vis the police, you've probably been reading the Toronto Sun too often.

It all comes down to politics , the police association did not support the mayor and his NDP council so now they are getting back at them. And that is the issue. The firefighters got what they wanted, the garbage men got what they wanted and now when it comes to the police there is a big fight.
The cost of policing is high in every major city thats the nature of the business, it costs money to fight crime and I dont mind paying for it at least I know that my money is being spent on something worthwhile not like the MFP scandal, and all the other numerous federal and provincial scandals in the past 5 years.