Fix the TTC - Let Gas Prices Rise

I disagree that streetcars are utterly useless. They are for many their favorite way to get around on the TTC (including mine), keep smog out of Toronto, have a really cool feel / uniqueness to them as most other cities don't have them.

The only qualms I see with them are they are horrible to try to drive around (which doesn't bother me, as I rarely use a car, and anything to encourage less cars on Toronto's roads is a good thing in my opinion) and unless someone's fully able bodied they're almost impossible to get on and off of. I can relate slightly here as I often have a stroller (with a kid in it) and I definately don't look forward to boarding and getting off streetcars.

But our current fleet of streetcars are old, and the new ones that will be introduced over the next several years will be much more accessible. I think they'll be similar to the new buses, with ramps that fold out so people in wheelchairs can roll right onto them.

Also, I think the TTC's plan is to build many more streetcar routes, as they can build ten times the amount of streetcar routes with the same money it takes to build a subway route.

But I agree, Let Gas Prices Rise.

Remember the original "Sim City"?

Remember how everyone complained about the pollution, so you would remove all the roads and put nothing but trains in?

Remember how your approval rating skyrocketed after that?

Remember how, two rounds later, people were complaining about not having any roads, and your apprioval rating plummeted, and people started not paying their taxes, causing your worldbank loan to be revoked?

Remember getting frustrated and then coaxing Godzilla and all manner of natural disaster to destroy your city of ungrateful citizens, revelling in all the terrific destruction, carnage and horrors you could summon with one god-like click of a button?

Good times...

I do like the uniqueness of the streetcars as well. Unfortunately for me the novelty has worn off, and has instead been overshadowed by the fact that when streetcar tracks are under repair, it not only means you can't use the streetcar, but it also means you can't drive a car, or in some instances even ride your bike down the street.

They simply aren't pracitcal. Short term, you're right street cars are cheaper, but longterm - when you factor in maintaining the streetcars, and replacement cars - the subway is much cheaper. Roads do not need to be torn up, and subway cars have a much longer life.

P.S. I love Sim City.

I am all for hiking gas prices and parking rates if the money will go to the TTC, and if people will leave the cars at home.

My first mode of transport is foot, followed by TTC. I live in a spot where it is easier and faster to walk everywhere than to take trasit.

And I agree that streetcar track repairs and upgrades are a pain, and not just for motorists. Have you seen St. Clair lately, since they started the streetcar track upgrades? It's a mess for everyone: TTC, motorists, cyclists and walkers. Hopefully once it's over, traffic will move more smoothly, and the infamous gridlock at Yonge and St. Clair will end.

I'm not sure what you're talking about - expensive trams? Cheap subway? And this happened when?

You want to make it cheaper - put trolleys on your streets (and anyway whatever you'll build will cost billions - becouse it's not what it really costs but what you're willing to pay, and you overpay omost everything).

Streetcar repairs and upgrades are pain? I do live in Europe and it's not much pain - I assure you. And there are even trams that remember IIWW - if you want to, you'll keep them (in Swiss there are such trains too).

What I was surprised when I lived in Toronto, was that your public transport was not accessible - (to old and disabled). Apart this it's perfect. Believe me.

And that is true - you're still paying little for gas, rise prices to european levels and you'll see more interest. I'm really amused what is going on in the USA, all those 'rich' Americans whining and saying they'll stop driving because they pay a bit more...

And the elevated system to be honest is more costly and rather not esthetic.

Streetcars for me are a perfect solution for medium-high density routs that don't quite justify the multi-billion dollar up-front cost of of a subway, but still need something bigger than a bus line.

When trams/streetcars have a dedicated lane, (that works properly, which means signal priority over cars,) you get many of the benefits of a subway line at a fraction of the cost.

The problem with Toronto's streetcars, at least their traditional routes, is that they function essentially like buses. (Except for Spadina and St. Clair.) in this case though, buses that can't divert around traffic blockages.) It's a problem with Toronto's implementation, not tram technology itself.

I have always loved the streetcar like I love an old pair of running shoes. But someday I'm going to get a new pair and think to myself "Holy shit, why didn't I do this sooner. Those old shoes were junk compared to these new ones. I don't care how many great experiences I had wearing them."

Know what I mean?

Yeah, I also disagree with the claim that streecars aren't 'practical'. Streetcars offer a number of tanglible and intangible benefits that buses do not: quieter, cleaner (you appreciate the lack of exhaust when you're riding behind one on a bike), more comfortable ride, more capacity. Because of their size and limited range of movement, they also help set the pace and tone of our streets and keep other traffic in line. They also offer the best options for future transit expansion across the city. And they're damn cool!

They are only cost-effective in the short term. I am still not convinced that their trendiness, coolness, or uniqueness justify their long term maintainenance. They are not the best feasible option for future mass transit expansion - in fact, subway's can be done, it would take one massive loan by the government, but it could be ammoritized over a long period of time. (something like 100 years) The government already does this - it leases the land that Queen's Park is on from the University of Toronto - a 100 year lease I believe.

Personally, I'm a big fan of subways - have you seen other cities subway systems??? I'm thinking of Singapore, Hong Kong, and New York specifically - I realize that there are alot of bad ones as well, but why should Torontonians settle for mediocrity.

Auto companies have launched or relaunched environmentally friendly vehicles in Canada first because we are more likely to embrace it. (see Vespa and the Smart Car) I think we should be setting the bar in our public transit as well.

They are only cost-effective in the short term.

Unless you have hard numbers to back up that claim, stop making it ... it's not even a rational argument, transit expansion is based on population density: if you have the density, a subway makes sense.

You've set up a false argument, it's not streetcars vs. subways, it's streetcars vs. buses. The subway is the spine the surface routes feed. What are you proposing? Replacing ALL the surface routes with subways? A subway isn't feasible if the density isn't there to support it, just look at the Sheppard line sucking up all that money.

Keep in mind that if the density is there, transit routes can be profitable. The reason the TTC loses money (and it doesn't lose much, comapred to other transit systems) is because it has to service so much suburban sprawl. And yeah, higher gas prices will apply pressures that will help solve that problem.

No please do not insist that you have no efficient public transport.

I cannot give you numbers right now, but I remember that when I read articles (with numbers), it was obvious that Toronto has, if not the best, one of the best public transport systems in the world.

At first - especially compared to other 'american' cities - it has one of the best indications/ratios of 'return'. It's well known that practically everywhere you put more money then you get from tickets, but in Toronto you put evidently less. That means that as a taxpayer you pay less ;)

As for price of the ticket - please be just - for $2 (it is 2.25?) you get everywhere in nearly 5 million metropolis. Where else you'll pay so little? Be honest.

The TTC is clean, efficient, safe. Someone gave as the example dirty, smelly and dangerous NYC subways... Has he ever traveled there?

I love subways (especially such art beauties as in Stockholm), but you cannot build them everywhere. Remember all that discussion with Sheppard line? It is expensive and Toronto - thank god! - is not so dense. Any subway line is linked also to the plans for development of an area. You're not building one under family houses in rural areas.

I lived in many cities - but believe me I find the TTC super organized. It is so clear to get from point A to B there is no problem.

Quite another problem is why you replace buses or trams with the same buses or trams, not with low floor, efficient, modern (or ecological). Ask your politicians. It is possible to get cheap and good ones.

Oh and by the way - you have to think globally, see more. Get an example of Paris - there is ROER, metro and trains. A system that can move easily and quickly huge masses from suburbs to the centre. This is NOT functioning in Toronto.

To get from one end to another in subway takes here soooo long. Because this is only a normal line of subway, stopping every 200 meters. Get GO transit electrified (and your trains), make it really a mean of transportation for those from outside Toronto. Link it to the TTC the way that when I go a bit further I can get quickly with GO to one point and then with bus, subway or tram to my final destination.

No extra money needed - only a bit of thinking

In Amsterdam (Paris and many other cities) you can get directly from plane to fast train (I mean really FAST train - such as TGV) and get - or to the city centre in very short time or elsewhere in the country. This is a modern system.

But sadly America (as a continent) is based on cars, more - on private cars.

Anyway even with traffic in Toronto's centre you shouldn't complain. It is quite OK, not big. And it is also because there ARE difficulties for those who drive to the centre. Not only steep park prices, also little place where you can leave your car (and not for too long) and such difficulties as 'bumbs' or no turns that slow traffic - all this causes that really Toronto (at least for a European) is a nice place, with limited traffic, no jams and even pedestrian friendly - quite a success as for America.

One more thing: even though I like streetcars, I hate it when they short turn. Especially when I have a stroller, a kid, and it's freezing outside. Please don't short turn anymore. thanks.

I've managed to save up roughly $53051 in my bank account, but I'm not sure if I should buy a house or not. Do you think the market is stable or do you think that home prices will decrease by a lot?

nice comment ,about letting gas priced skyrocket ,thats all fine and Dandy if you live downtown but when you drive 150 kilometres each day my truck goes through about 1000.00 a month on fuel,this is simply mad . The end result is when the Government and not so much the oil companys bleed the economy dry. They may think twice about killing the golden goose. The oil companies I can understand upping prices it,s their job,the shareholders demand it ,But the government is simply being a crack whore sponging off the public,as if they ain,t getting enough ,fuck I wish I was born 50 yrs ago.